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Caryn Rogosky
Ken, *Exochorda is a qualified SO horse because she meets the criteria for inclusion per the SOFI definition:

"A Sheykh Obeyd Arabian is one who descends exclusively from those Arabians bred by, acquired by, or otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by any of the seven original foundation breeders, or combination thereof. These horses constitute the Foundation Root Stock of Sheykh Obeyd (see sections on Foundation Breeders and Foundation Horses)."

For further information on the definition and Foundation Root Stock or Foundation breeders, here is the link to FACT Page of the SOFI Website:
http://www.sheykhobeyd.org/faqs.html

Also, please refer back to my original statement on this thread:

"*Exochorda, known in Egypt as Leila II and/or Marquita, is absolutely and without question qualified as a Straight Egyptian. She was conceived in Egypt of Asil desert bred parents, born in Egypt in the possession of a famous breeder in association with and under the supervision of the RAS. Furthermore, she came to America from the Royal Stables of Egypt."

Future information and evidence will be published which will provide further confirmation and clarification of my abovel statement. Thanks.
Caryn
Robert 1
Hi Caryn,
Please don't take offense but, I have read over 200 post in 14 pages and I am still waiting for the breaking evidence as are many others, and please, I have nothing to gain or lose in this matter, I only am anxiously awaiting the evidence to be presented by you. biggrin.gif
Robert
HLM
Dear Ken

you need to ask which breeders are listed in the original minutes of the sheykh Obeyd Org. and of course also the name of this famous breeder advised.
You then on your own can conclude.

also of course how the RAs supervised such. If so, why such horses are not listed in any Studbook, herdbook etc. Obviously there could be many more horses involved, being at the tracks racing and what ever happened to those.
Was this particular mare singled out and her listed parents , and for what reason?

Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Aabian Farms
l
Sumerlan
Bump

Susan Gilbert
Sumerlan
kay cochran
Alright already! I've had enough of this. Let's all agree to disagree admit that the mare Exochorda is straight Egyptian and move on to more serious issues. As far as I am concerned she's straight . She's certainly proven herself. Think people! Kay
2mntn
Bumped for gerow
JoeFerriss
I haven't visited this site in over a month, so as a come lately I haven't been able to read all the posts but here are some comments:

On the subject of Skowronek-Post #37 [and I am not sure why he surfaced in this discussion]:
I believe it was Carol Schulz who said years ago that first one must accept that, by any animal breed registry standards, 15 or more generations of generally accepted "like" ancestry, should allow it the term purebred. That said, this would cover Skowronek, and all other bloodlines outside the scope of the "asil, desert or Egyptian" oriented community.

Setting aside the discussion of Skowronek's distant past with his pedigree alleged to have 9 or so "non-Arab" ancestors, I think part of the controversy over Skowronek for some people can be seen in the photo on page 63 of the book The Arabian Horse In Europe by Erika Schiele. The photo is of Lady Wentworth's hand drawn and painted official Crabbet pedigree for the Crabbet mare Dafinetta born 1935, a granddaughter of Skowronek. That pedigree shows Skowronek's grandparents as being Ali Pasha Sherif breeding: Heijer being shown as by Mahruss x Bint Jamila, and Lafitte as being by A Saqlawi Jidran of Ibn Sudan x Makboula. However records indicate that Skowronek's pedigree is otherwise, that he is not part Ali Pasha Sherif breeding. To my knowledge no research on Skowronek's pedigree has produced the pedigree that Lady Wentworth illuminated in this example. Some had considered this misrepresentation and felt that there was no reason that by 1935 Lady Wentworth would not know the factual pedigree of Skowonek rather than the one she provided. Perhaps someone out there can explain how this happened, but one can see the controversy it raised. So here you have a pedigree after all these years still under question by some, yet Skowronek remains one of the revered contributors worldwide to Arabian type and quality.

For breeders of both "purebred" registered Arabians and breeders of "asil, desert or Egyptian" oriented Arabians, one focus is clear, to preserve the general breed characteristics handed down to us by the Bedouin culture that make the Arabian the historic and versatile treasure that it is.

Breeders of "asil, desert or Egyptian" oriented Arabians have one additional focus and that is to preserve bloodlines that appear to be reasonably assumed to come from the originating culture. I believe it is more about preservation, not purity. Purity can never be agreed on by definition. But various organizations have the right to assemble and define bloodlines of interest to them and to find ways to identify and preserve those lines. Some overlap some do not. But all have to make reasonable assumptions.

On the subject of Exochorda:
I rely on others to follow the research to their hearts content and I do my own looking as well. What I reviewed myself years ago met the reasonable assumption for me and I understood Al Khamsa and the Blue Catalog's acceptance of her. And later when I saw the Pyramid Society definition of "Straight Egyptian", I saw her acceptance there as well.

As for the mare herself, I was fortunate to spend considerable time interviewing two of the people who owned Exochorda. I saw (and filmed) many of Sirecho's get (from Al Khamsa, Blue Star, Egyptian and Crabbet lines), I also owned one, and followed the bloodline for many years. Often overlooked in discussions, is Sirecho's major contribution in Al Khamsa combined sources and the Blue Star breeding group. It certainly has proven itself an excellent contributor of Arabian breed characteristics of horses which the Bedouin would be proud.

As for Exochorda's credentials in Straight Egyptian ancestry, generally I think it is better documented than some others that we have long come to accept as a part of Egyptian breeding, going as far back as the mare Hallabia (from an Abu Amin Hallabi), who we know almost nothing about, but she is in every single living Pyramid Society straight Egyptian horse. Both Exochorda and Hallabia deserve their part of the heritage of the straight Egyptian horse. It is impossible to create one complete standard of provenance. Stud book registration is of little help for many such as Zarife, Fadl, Maaroufa, Bint Serra, etc. who are not listed in the Egyptian studbooks. Al Khamsa has done a commendable job of trying to sort out all the "pre-registration" horses tied to Egyptian heritage. Documents do not always exist or are not always preserved. We still do not know how the Maaroufa/Negma female line came to inherit the strain name Kuhaylan Jellabi when the MtDNA shows this female line to be related to the Saqlawi Jidran line of Bint Helwa (APS). Time erodes knowledge that is not recorded somewhere and even that which is recorded somewhere is subject to interpretation.

One final comment. As a point of interest Richard Pritzlaff, (also among the early participants in the Pyramid Society) told us on several of our visits in the 1970s how much he wanted to breed to Sirecho to add the Nasr up close, and to match with his Rabanna line as well. The owner of Sirecho, Mrs. J. E. Ott, would not allow Sirecho to leave her farm but instead sent Sirecho's straight Egyptian son, Bel Gordas (full brother to Asal Sirabba) for use by Richard, thereby adding the Sirecho blood into the Pritzlaff program. And finally, Sirecho is not the only source of Nasr (Manial) blood in Pyramid Society straight Egyptian lines. Gleannloch imported from Egypt the mare, Hayam, a descendant of Ibn Manial (Nasr x Bint Obeya KDV) and later the EAO mare Neli was imported here by Rick Heber, also with a line to Ibn Manial. The German import Golson has a line to Ibn Manial. So the stallion Nasr is also carried forward via Ibn Manial.

-Joe Ferriss
(For clarity, since there are several Joes on this blog, please refer to me as JoeF when responding. thanks)
2mntn
Hello JoeF,

Interesting note regarding Richard Pritzlaff and Sirecho.

Also interesting to contemplate is this: if "breeder" were recorded as the stallion owner, then the "breeder" for Sirecho would have been W R Brown. wink.gif

Thanks for sharing your perspective!

Ray
phanilah
Hi Joe (F),

Nice to see you here. Thanks for the additional comments, very helpful!

Re: Skowronek - in past discussions there has been an overivew from Journals and Correspondence posted, which does a nice job of explaining some of the "whys" of the controversy and there was also a copy of what Lady Wentworth listed as Abrahim's pedigree on the hand drawn pedigree she did for *Rossana.

Unfortunately, these items always go over like a lead balloon in the discussion and things usually end up going rather badly. But, it does tie in with your comments re: "why" the subject is controversial.

Beth
2mntn
QUOTE (phanilah @ Aug 7 2008, 09:08 PM)
Hi Joe (F),

Nice to see you here.  Thanks for the additional comments, very helpful!

Re: Skowronek - in past discussions there has been an overivew from Journals and Correspondence posted, which does a nice job of explaining some of the "whys" of the controversy and there was also a copy of what Lady Wentworth listed as Abrahim's pedigree on the hand drawn pedigree she did for *Rossana. 

Unfortunately, these items always go over like a lead balloon in the discussion and things usually end up going rather badly.  But, it does tie in with your comments re: "why" the subject is controversial.

Beth
*



Additional note re: Skowronek - I believe Melissa Paul mentioned that recently discovered Russian Studbooks of 1900 and 1903 are in the translation process, which may shed more light on the origins of the dam.

Ray
phanilah
The 1903 Russian studbook has also been mentioned here several times, including sections of the translation being posted. Again, the contents tend to go over like a lead balloon. wink.gif

Beth
2mntn
Allrightythen! We're in denial, are we?? wink.gif

Ray laugh.gif
phanilah
QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 7 2008, 09:21 PM)
Allrightythen!  We're in denial, are we??  wink.gif

Ray  laugh.gif
*



Not I - but I can only handle being verbally assaulted and accused of a varitey of not so nice things, so many times - before I get tired of it....and I just don't have the energy to revisit the Skowronek thing again. wink.gif

The information is out there, in abundance, on this forum - I just wanted to note that Joe's (F) comments tie in nicely with some of the previously made comments on "why" there is even a controversy and the questions are legitimate.

Beth
Tous crins
QUOTE (phanilah @ Aug 7 2008, 01:30 PM)
Not I - but I can only handle being verbally assaulted and accused of a varitey of not so nice things, so many times - before I get tired of it....and I just don't have the energy to revisit the Skowronek thing again. wink.gif 


lassitude Beth....

QUOTE
The information is out there, in abundance, on this forum - I just wanted to note that Joe's (F) comments tie in nicely with some of the previously made comments on "why" there is even a controversy and the questions are legitimate.

Beth
*
2mntn
QUOTE (phanilah @ Aug 7 2008, 09:30 PM)
Not I - but I can only handle being verbally assaulted and accused of a varitey of not so nice things, so many times - before I get tired of it....and I just don't have the energy to revisit the Skowronek thing again. wink.gif 

The information is out there, in abundance, on this forum - I just wanted to note that Joe's (F) comments tie in nicely with some of the previously made comments on "why" there is even a controversy and the questions are legitimate.

Beth
*



HUH?? You mean slamming a can of Red Bull won't help either? wink.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Sorry, and I'll shut up now.

Ray
phanilah
LOL - now that Melissa is around, maybe we can split the abuse (again). LOL!
If we each only take 1/2 of the insults and accusations...that might not be too bad. ROFL!

Beth
2mntn
QUOTE (Tous crins @ Aug 7 2008, 09:39 PM)
lassitude Beth....
*



Christine - did you Bark at me just now ??? laugh.gif laugh.gif

LONGITUDE, BETH, LONGITUDE, not lassitude! Grab that Red Bull, show us that big, red "S" on your chest and shout Halleluiah!!

Ray
phanilah
lassitude....snort smile.gif

Do you think the Red Bull would actually help? LOL!

Beth
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 7 2008, 09:48 PM)
Christine - did you Bark at me just now ???  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

LONGITUDE, BETH, LONGITUDE, not lassitude!  Grab that Red Bull, show us that big, red "S" on your chest and shout Halleluiah!! 

Ray
*

Sure Ray.........it's all just geography, Right ?????
Cathy
HLM
Dear Joe (F)

thank you for your post. You forgot to mention that Richard Pritzlaf used Bel Gordas in 1967 to produce Naszala for him in 1968. It was 1970 when my search began after Doug Marshall's warning. It was some years ago when Miss Ott personally shot 17 of her horses and had the veterinarian do the rest, discusted over a lot of things. I think Billy was there and then told me.So I guess even at that time people were breeding for a particular label in their mind, and not always for the horses.

I visited Richard numerous times, once stayed over a week at his place and we were close friends. He also visited my in Canada.Bill also accompanied at one time

Richard was upset not knowing of the error the AHRa made,actually was furiated.
We discussed this subject in length. That was also the time when he showed me the letter of Von Szandler returning Judi's letter to him she had written scolding him for selling Richard such bad horses. I feel certain that Edna Weeks also read it, and you may talk to her. And that started the drift, that's when Richard got upset..

I also talked to Peter Upton in in Bahrain regarding Skowronek. At that time he was adamend that Skowronek is Asil, at least this is how I understood it to be. I told him that I have taken "Honorable Lady" infront of Wentworth name out of my database, as I lost respect for her. Peter was very polite about the issue, but you may ask him the next time you see him.

You see my dear old friend, there are so many things still hidden in closets, and one needs to be careful in presenting with data so that no further confusion takes place. Time and place is always a good guideline. When we meet again, we can go deeper into some subjects, if you like.

Furthermore I enjoy discussing subject by subject and not comparing one to the other, meaning horses. Although I ask numerous times, nobody has yet come forward to help identifying the buyer in Egypt of the over 100 Syrian/Egyptian horses sent back by King Emanual II in 1872. They a recorded in the Italian JC book together with over 600 Syrians imported in 1821-and forward by King Emanual II. The Egyptian parent in them came fromt he A Pasha auction sale.
If we ever find an answer to my question we might be able to shed light on other SEs. I even gave Edouard a total 8 lbs print out years ago, and still now answer.
I even had a friend go to the Italian JC for me, pay $ 250.- to have my copy certified and have it right here, certified. I dont speak Italian, the reason why..

I feel this way, about everything we discover having questions, somewhere out there is an answer.To jump to conclusions has never been my style. To have some people get angry over it is not wise.

take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
HLM
Beth, I even got the russian Stud books in russian language, I dont speak.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Tous crins
QUOTE (HLM @ Aug 7 2008, 02:08 PM)
Dear Joe (F)

It was some years ago when Miss Ott personally shot 17 of her horses and had the veterinarian do the rest, discusted over a lot of things. I think Billy was there and then told me.So I guess even at that time people were breeding for a particular label in their mind, and not always for the horses

*



She did WHAT????

I am sorry Hansi, I am just about to faint....
Whatever the reason it is sickening.

Christine
Nadj al Nur
She SHOT 17 HORSES?????? In heaven's name, why would anyone do that !!!! That is really ugly.
Cathy
HLM
As I said Christine, there are many things in a closet, but this fact is open and known to many and it is true. Believe me, I also was sick to my stomach.

Hansi biggrin.gif
HLM
Why Cathy, has you friend in the West not told you about this? Or our traveller?
Not everything which shines is gold my young friend. Learned this a long time ago and the hard way,.

O BTW Mike I heard is back in Scotland, leaving some disare in Ireland it is said. Now that is hearsay. Cant prove it, but comes from reliable sources.

Take care
hansi biggrin.gif
Kimberli Nelson
I think it would be a good idea to keep a lot of these things "IN"the closet.

There is a lot of mud out there and some people know some things and others know other things....
Nadj al Nur
No, Hansi..........none of my friends in the west told me that. It makes me wonder why people even breed horses if they can be so twisted to even think about destroyng lives that they brought into the world, especially if they are healthy and there is nothing wrong with them.
Cathy
Ps I heard that too, and likely from the same source.
2mntn
Dear Cathy,

You and I as well as generations to follow have been spared the gory details. We have been insulated from some of the baser facts of life.

Back in the "day", horses were livestock, nothing more, nothing less. They were routinely shot.

I must admit I was shocked to learn that Wlfred Blunt began to shoot the horses at Crabbet Stud...

All of this is distressing news.

Ray sad.gif
MHuprich
could topics not related to *Exochorda be moved to new topics?
Nadj al Nur
It certainly is distressing news. I grew up in a farming community, and I am no stranger to the death of animals. There is however a difference between shooting livestock for a PURPOSE, ie for food or to spare an old or ill animal some suffering. To shoot healthy horses because of what, A WHIM???? or a temper tantrum??? or something equally as base is plain and simple ugliness.
As far as Wilfred Blunt is concerned.....have you read his journals??? He was a strange duck too.............
Cathy
JoeFerriss
Richard did use Bel Gordas in 1967 breeding him to *Bint El Bataa, producing Naszala the following year. In 1976 when we first visited Richard Pritzlaff, he told us about using Bel Gordas. He indicated that he liked him but wanted Sirecho instead to get closer to Nasr. By then Naszala was on lease to the Grows in Washington. He insisted that we stay for days and we got into a long an interesting discussion regarding early Egyptian horses and the Travelers Rest farm. He had correspondence from J.M. Dickinson to W.R. Brown and also to Wayne VanVleet which he read to us. The correspondence was an evaluation of some of the W.R. Brown Egyptian imports that Dickinson was breeding from, noting how great a sire Nasr was. It was an interesting time and an enjoyable visit. Richard had no bad words to say about Bel Gordas or Exochorda to us in 1976. He was not angry about anything that we could see at the time. He was sharing his knowledge with us about his breeding program. Perhaps he felt it smart protocol to share his knowledge and not get into matters he felt private at that time. Perhaps he understood also that our interest was in horses and breeding, not people, or organizations. Some years later on another visit he had a Bel Gordas granddaughter, Bint Naszala I believe, at his farm which I believe he could not get in foal. I think I have some movies of her that I took on one of our visits. My point in bringing Richard up in the first place is that it was about his consideration of using Sirecho blood in his program. Our discussions centered on breeding, not organizations and from that I learned the most from him.
Tous crins
QUOTE (JoeFerriss @ Aug 7 2008, 03:35 PM)
Richard did use Bel Gordas in 1967 breeding him to *Bint El Bataa, producing Naszala the following year. In 1976 when we first visited Richard Pritzlaff, he told us about using Bel Gordas. He indicated that he liked him but wanted Sirecho instead to get closer to Nasr. By then Naszala was on lease to the Grows in Washington. He insisted that we stay for days and we got into a long an interesting discussion regarding early Egyptian horses and the Travelers Rest farm. He had correspondence from J.M. Dickinson to W.R. Brown and also to Wayne VanVleet which he read to us. The correspondence was an evaluation of some of the W.R. Brown Egyptian imports that Dickinson was breeding from, noting how great a sire Nasr was. It was an interesting time and an enjoyable visit. Richard had no bad words to say about Bel Gordas or Exochorda to us in 1976. He was not angry about anything that we could see at the time. He was sharing his knowledge with us about his breeding program. Perhaps he felt it smart protocol to share his knowledge and not get into matters he felt private at that time. Perhaps he understood also that our interest was in horses and breeding, not people, or organizations. Some years later on another visit he had a Bel Gordas granddaughter, Bint Naszala I believe, at his farm which I believe he could not get in foal. I think I have some movies of her that I took on one of our visits. My point in bringing Richard up in the first place is that it was about his consideration of using Sirecho blood in his program.  Our discussions centered on breeding, not organizations and from that I learned the most from him..
*



Hi Joe,

That is what I have enjoyed visiting farms too. The bitterness towards people and organization does nothing to encourage "newbies".

Christine
flying hooves
I don't believe hiding things in the closet about people who are "worshiped" in the Arabian horse world helps anyone.

Everyone talks about how passionate Ms Ott was about her horses, if true, this information sheds new light on that doesn't it?

Lisa
1rider
It might be that this passion cause people to do strange things. have also heard of people gelding good stallions to keep the price of the offspring high, didnt understand that. thats what they told me.
JoeF back to the purity thing so if the horse had spots and those spots came through for 15 generations then would it still fit that acceptents as back to pure. Ken
JoeFerriss
HI Ken,
Spots can be found in all lines of Arabians. I don't know that it is a measure of the horses blood purity by livestock standards. The comment I made about "purebred" in general is applied to all breeds as I understand it and would be in variance with more specific criteria that particular Bedouin tribes would apply where the term Asil is used. Of course there are many interpretations of asil as well, but I like the general definition that Al Khamsa uses for "reasonably assumed" lineages.

As for spots and unusual colors, google or go to a library and look for the great books written by Carol Mulder, under the general title "Imported Foundation stock of Arabian Horses of North America". She has an interesting feature on color and markings.

I will be gone the rest of this beautiful day and I encourage others to enjoy it as well...
Nadj al Nur
Actually, Ken, you can still get those books of Carol Mulder's for about 40 dollars each. There are three in the set and they are a VERY good investment.
Cathy
Tous crins
QUOTE (1rider @ Aug 7 2008, 09:30 PM)
It might  be that this passion cause people to do strange things. have also heard of people gelding good stallions to keep the price of the offspring high, didnt understand that. thats what they told me.
JoeF back to the purity thing so if the horse had spots  and those spots came through for 15 generations then would it still fit that acceptents as back to pure.  Ken
*


Ken,

If you mean belly spots, it is in the Davenports too - "the purest of the purest".
I remember looking at the markings on Datasource of a gorgeous grey mare, I think she was in MD, and there was a huge body spot. It goes with high whites and white on the lower lips - sabino gene I think.

Nothing wrong with it.

Christine
2mntn
QUOTE (flying hooves @ Aug 8 2008, 02:51 AM)
I don't believe hiding things in the closet about people who are "worshiped" in the Arabian horse world helps anyone.

Everyone talks about how passionate Ms Ott was about her horses, if true, this information sheds new light on that doesn't it?

Lisa
*


Lisa,

I wouldn’t call it shedding new light. It would be more of an insight for helping us to gain a better understanding, or perspective, on just how “passionate” some people can be!

As near as I can tell, Hansi has always been an advocate for putting the horse first in any program - form to function. She has always cautioned people to be skeptical about “labels”. However, if you insist upon being involved with a label, be very sure you understand what that label means. You should examine and understand your own motives for involvement and ask yourself if the label makes sense to you as it relates to the horses. How much importance you will ascribe to the label as it relates to your reason for having certain horses? Will they suddenly seem worthless to you, should that label “evaporate”?

I hope that a few others have gained an understanding and/or an appreciation for where Hansi is coming from - on this and other subjects. She is so agressive in her remarks because she does not want to see people get themselves so deeply wrapped-up in a “label game” that they go “off the deep end” if something about that label should change. New facts could surface at any time which would cause the “all important label” to be meaningless. It is far more important for people to understand, and believe, that it is their HORSE who should always come first. The labels they carry may not be worth much more than the paper they’re written on.

We know that there are many ancestors in our pedigrees whose backgrounds are sketchy. This is another very good reason to be careful that you do not place all your faith and your entire “reason for being” in these labels. Special clubs, recognitions, events, socializing with your friends and all the “romance language” are really just “add-ons” and not much more than “extra baggage”, when you think about it long enough.

Ray
Dieter
QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 8 2008, 12:53 PM)
Lisa,(snipped) I hope that a few others have gained an understanding and/or an appreciation for where Hansi is coming from - on this and other subjects.  She is so agressive in her remarks because she does not want to see people get themselves so deeply wrapped-up in a “label game” that they go “off the deep end” if something about that label should change.  New facts could surface at any time which would cause the “all important label” to be meaningless.  It is far more important for people to understand, and believe, that it is their HORSE who should always come first.  The labels they carry may not be worth much more than the paper they’re written on. (snipped)

Ray
*

Hi Ray,

Do you remember the little uproar that followed the decision of the Pyramid Society to eliminate the show eligibility of the egyptian-related horses at the Event (and went to straight Egyptian or Egyptian SIRED only)? ohmy.gif I can't help but wonder what happened to those breeders who had been confidently breeding Egyptian-related arabians for years, carved out a piece of the market and then had the proverbial 'rug' pulled out from under them (hopefully they were breeding excellent horses over anything else!). TPS defines what is eligible to show at the EE and it is not a "democracy" so to speak, but . . . I wonder if that impacted membership numbers or breeders to any significant degree?

Anyway, I wanted to say this weeks ago to reiterate and demonstrate that labels can and do change, but got lost in a sea of threads.

Liz
kay cochran
ATTENTION!!!!! Please Read BRED FOR PERFECTION, Shorthorn Cattle, Collies. and Arabian Horses Since 1800 And pay special attention to Chapter 5, A World Market for Arabians Takes Shape Chapter 6 The Arabian Horse Registry of America. Written by Margaret E. Derry I promise you it will be interesting. K
kay cochran
Liz, It's not just a label, it's called politics. K
2mntn
QUOTE (Dieter @ Aug 26 2008, 05:47 PM)
Hi Ray,

Do you remember the little uproar that followed the decision of the Pyramid Society to eliminate the show eligibility of the egyptian-related horses at the Event (and went to straight Egyptian or Egyptian SIRED only)?  ohmy.gif  I can't help but wonder what happened to those breeders who had been confidently breeding Egyptian-related arabians for years, carved out a piece of the market and then had the proverbial 'rug' pulled out from under them (hopefully they were breeding excellent horses over anything else!).  TPS defines what is eligible to show at the EE and it is not a "democracy" so to speak, but . . . I wonder if that impacted membership numbers or breeders to any significant degree?

Anyway, I wanted to say this weeks ago to reiterate and demonstrate that labels can and do change, but got lost in a sea of threads.

Liz
*



Hi Liz,

Well, I remember being disappointed at that rules change, as I had just bred an SE mare to a Spanish stallion. No more "label" (Egyptian-bred, or related) for me. sad.gif
I didn't have any market carved out to worry about, but I would loved to have shown this feller as ER. At 2 years old, Shai Mandate (Mandato x Shir Ha Leila).

Click to view attachment

Anyway - I understand the Egyptian-sired philosophy - in the way that Hansi describes it, as the "top bred" horse. The "best top breeding" being to an SE stallion, of course. wink.gif The rules change did not change my thinking as much as Hansi's opinion on "top breeding". I won't use anything on an SE mare but an SE stallion. Unless I want a specific cross, or "straight" breeding, I won't use anything but an SE stallion on any other mare, either. Which is understandable, given the stud lineup I've got here. If I had to go outside for a stallion, my "rules" might change. laugh.gif

Ray
morabene
QUOTE (kay cochran @ Aug 26 2008, 07:54 PM)
ATTENTION!!!!!    Please Read    BRED FOR PERFECTION, Shorthorn Cattle, Collies. and Arabian Horses Since 1800        And pay special attention to Chapter 5, A World Market for Arabians Takes Shape    Chapter 6  The Arabian Horse Registry of America.    Written by Margaret E. Derry    I promise you it will be interesting.    K
*


This is a fascinating, skinny little book. Well worth the time to read it.

Martha
kay cochran
Martha, Thank you! K
Dieter
QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 26 2008, 03:33 PM)
Hi Liz,

Well, I remember being disappointed at that rules change, as I had just bred an SE mare to a Spanish stallion.  No more "label" (Egyptian-bred, or related) for me.  sad.gif   I didn't have any market carved out to worry about, but I would loved to have shown this feller as ER.  At 2 years old, Shai Mandate (Mandato x Shir Ha Leila).
Click to view attachment
Anyway - I understand the Egyptian-sired philosophy - in the way that Hansi describes it, as the "top bred" horse.  The "best top breeding" being to an SE stallion, of course.  wink.gif  The rules change did not change my thinking as much as Hansi's opinion on "top breeding".  I won't use anything on an SE mare but an SE stallion.  Unless I want a specific cross, or "straight" breeding, I won't use anything but an SE stallion on any other mare, either.  Which is understandable, given the stud lineup I've got here.  If I had to go outside for a stallion, my "rules" might change.  laugh.gif

Ray
*

Hi Ray,

There were quite a few people "shocked" when that change went into effect. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand it, the colt that is sired by an SE out of a non-SE mare has no future as a stallion as it relates to showing his foals at the Event as his foals are not eligible regardless if his dam is SE. Interestingly enough and in the past, only stallions and mares sired by SE's (out of non-SE mares) were considered Egyptian-related and eligible to show at the Event. Foals out of an SE mare, but sired by an Egyptian-related or non-SE stallion (such as Mandato - though Mandate is looking spectacular!) were not eligible - regardless of how good these horses were or how well these crosses worked. That turned quite a few friends off from TPS who had bred their SE mares to an Egyptian-related stallion and then learned they could not participate at the show. Luckily, they were all able to show in AHA sanctioned and open events winning many championships because they had bred some really great horses. But I have to say, quite a few of those went on to purchase non-SE horses for a whole new direction in their breeding program - I understand that..

I agree with the premise of "top breeding" and have seen it in practice often enough with partbreds to say it has validity - amongst so many other variables. For quite a few years I was a proponent of the partbred with the stallion being arabian and the mare the breed of choice. The foal was often such an improvement over the non-arabian's personality, yet retained much the structural phenotype with a prettier head, it seemed the best of both worlds. I have to admit, having a choice is tempting. When I'm down to my last stallion and zero mares, I hope to buy a Percheron or Belgium mare and breed it to my SE stallion. Imagine that! tongue.gif Will need a new saddle at the very least or perhaps a buggy biggrin.gif biggrin.gif ! (edited to add) You see - I am addicted to horses!!
Liz
PS yes, with your stud line-up, you'll never need to go OUT!! biggrin.gif
Dieter
QUOTE (kay cochran @ Aug 26 2008, 02:54 PM)
ATTENTION!!!!!    Please Read    BRED FOR PERFECTION, Shorthorn Cattle, Collies. and Arabian Horses Since 1800        And pay special attention to Chapter 5, A World Market for Arabians Takes Shape    Chapter 6  The Arabian Horse Registry of America.    Written by Margaret E. Derry    I promise you it will be interesting.    K
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Hey Kay!! Thanks for that resource tool - I'll be looking to buy it tomorrow - hopefully on EBAY biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Liz
kay cochran
Liz, that cross has been done, only with Clydesdales. It was done by a trainer in the Houston area so long ago I don't remember what her name was, maybe some one can. She raised two colts by her Arabian stallion, their names were Bud and Weiser. LOL!!!!!! K
phanilah
QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 26 2008, 08:33 PM)
Well, I remember being disappointed at that rules change, as I had just bred an SE mare to a Spanish stallion.  No more "label" (Egyptian-bred, or related) for me.  sad.gif
I didn't have any market carved out to worry about, but I would loved to have shown this feller as ER.  At 2 years old, Shai Mandate (Mandato x Shir Ha Leila).


This horse still wouldn't have been considered Egyptian related/bred.

***************
Foals prior to 2005:
An Egyptian-Bred (also known as Egyptian Related) horse, as defined by The Pyramid Society, is: -a- one who was produced either by breeding a Straight Egyptian stallion to a purebred Arabian mare who is not Straight Egyptian OR -b- one whose grandsires are both Straight Egyptian, and whose dam is a purebred Arabian who is not Straight Egyptian.

Only horses of certifiable ancestry are eligible for classification as Straight Egyptian or Egyptian-bred as defined by The Pyramid Society, and therefore are also eligible for Society-managed programs.

Foals of 2005 and Beyond:
An Egyptian Sired (previously known as Egyptian-Bred/Related) horse, as defined by The Pyramid Society, is a purebred Arabian who is produced by breeding a Straight Egyptian stallion to a purebred Arabian mare who is not Straight Egyptian, beginning with registrations of 2005. All existing horses presently meeting the definition of Egyptian Bred/Related will be grandfathered in through the remainder of their lifetime.

Only horses of certifiable ancestry are eligible for classification as Straight Egyptian or Egyptian Sired, as defined by The Pyramid Society, and therefore eligible for Society managed and promoted programs.
*********************

FWIW - the original purpose of adding the Egyptian bred/related category was to promote the use of SE stallions for outcrossing onto non-SE mares...it was never the intent to encourage SE mares to be bred to non-SE stallions.

All the change did was take the "option B" out from the original category - which had originally allowed for 2 grandsires to be SE, not just the sire....the mares continue to have to be purebred, but non-SE.

Beth
Dieter
QUOTE (phanilah @ Aug 27 2008, 12:27 PM)
This horse still wouldn't have been considered Egyptian related/bred.

***************
Foals prior to 2005:
An Egyptian-Bred (also known as Egyptian Related) horse, as defined by The Pyramid Society, is: -a- one who was produced either by breeding a Straight Egyptian stallion to a purebred Arabian mare who is not Straight Egyptian OR -b- one whose grandsires are both Straight Egyptian, and whose dam is a purebred Arabian who is not Straight Egyptian

Only horses of certifiable ancestry are eligible for classification as Straight Egyptian or Egyptian-bred as defined by The Pyramid Society, and therefore are also eligible for Society-managed programs. 

Foals of 2005 and Beyond:
An Egyptian Sired (previously known as Egyptian-Bred/Related) horse, as defined by The Pyramid Society, is a purebred Arabian who is produced by breeding a Straight Egyptian stallion to a purebred Arabian mare who is not Straight Egyptian, beginning with registrations of 2005. All existing horses presently meeting the definition of Egyptian Bred/Related will be grandfathered in through the remainder of their lifetime.

Only horses of certifiable ancestry are eligible for classification as Straight Egyptian or Egyptian Sired, as defined by The Pyramid Society, and therefore eligible for Society managed and promoted programs.
*********************

FWIW - the original purpose of adding the Egyptian bred/related category was to promote the use of SE stallions for outcrossing onto non-SE mares...it was never the intent to encourage SE mares to be bred to non-SE stallions.

All the change did was take the "option B" out from the original category - which had originally allowed for 2 grandsires to be SE, not just the sire....the mares continue to have to be purebred, but non-SE.

Beth
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Hi Beth,

Thanks for posting "the rules" - I thought I had described them well in my post biggrin.gif (did you read it?). I also advised Ray that Shai Mandate would not have been eligible, though perhaps stated this more "delicately".

I disagree with your last paragraph "all the change did was take the "option B" out from the original category" because, as I said in my post:
QUOTE
. . . the colt that is sired by an SE out of a non-SE mare has no future as a stallion as it relates to showing his foals at the Event as his foals are not eligible . . .

Whereas, in the past, the foal of an Egyptian Related stallion, bred to an Egyptian Related mare was eligible. Edited to add: Thereby making that Egyptian Sired Colt inherently less valuable as a sire as his foal CANNOT be shown at the EE. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Liz
phanilah
QUOTE
Whereas, in the past, the foal of an Egyptian Related stallion, bred to an Egyptian Related mare was eligible. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Yes, because that foal would have had 2 grandsires who were SE -option B-...that is what has been removed. So now, the sire must be SE, there is no longer the ability to qualify by having 2 SE grandsires.

Beth
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