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An American Breeder
Recently in a discussion with a friend the topic came up of which lines/what countries have a "corner" on the beautiful type that personifies the Arabian breed PLUS all the attributes of correct conformation.

One observation was that we do not have that left in the United States and we are going to be left behind again in the world breeding. Do you feel this is happening? Are we finally, after much harping by many, many, starting finally to concentrate on legs, disposition that wears the leather happily, joyfully, top conformation, and now losing the hallmark of the breed, and not talking about the flagging tail held high.

If so, what breeders and where, do you believe are advancing correct conformation, disposition for riding/using, and the head hallmark? And then, to make it even more difficult and extremely helpful, insightful, WHICH stallions and mares? Please try to include at least a bit of the background pedigree wise for those joining in the last bit time wise.

Thanks
HLM
Dear Pat

I dont quite agree, the USa and Canada still has some excellent SEs left, many
not shown and with our smaller breeders, like yours. I saw some photos of your horses and continue being impressed. This is stock Germany might need to improve, or any country,.eh.

I have good contact with horse experts in Germany and they are flabbagusted about the poor quality now produced and sold to some ME countries by known name farms. Apparently some ME owners buy by pedigree and name of breeder in it. This is leading into a disaster, I KNOW! It is said, that rearends and legs are getting real bad and movement is gone on many. Prices there range for these ornaments between $ 60,000 and $ 150,000 a head I was told,, which is totally unrealistic. Mind you sooner or later these people have to deal with reality, and horses which are mentally and physical sound will again be in the forefront. I just wonder who will end up being the laughing stock of the world, eh? Fortunately there are also smaller breeders in Germany who will not soil their repute as good breeders/horsemen/woman. I know of some.

thanks God at least the UAE cant be fooled and have top horsemen/women managing their farms and breeding programs. They should be saluted.
But also Jordan and some other nations continue to produce sound horses and have their horses in tough stress competition.

When people start or continue breeding for a "fishhead" all sanity stops.
When buyers have such bad buying management, it is worse.In many cases these managers dont know how to ride or properly evaluate a horse, obviously.
Ad the poor trainers to it, and you have a ready made disaster in waiting. I guess they have to buy stock in plastic bag companies.

the USA I think has still enough excellent stock to continue. May be I should open a column advising where these horses can be located, eh!. Many far surpass what I have seen at the EE.

this is my opinion and I expect some flack

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms





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An American Breeder
Liz here dry.gif not Pat. Are we saying "pretty" heads but not extreme classic?

Is that here in the US we are not desireous (such a word?) of the extreme, the painting, but want a functional animal above all? Are we content with a very "pretty" head? (I believe I am).
flying hooves
I was taught by a very wise horsewoman that you can't ride a head laugh.gif

I like a pretty head but I think we are losing touch with our horses desert heritage.
When one starts breeding for pretty one looses sight of function. I do believe we can have both, but very selective breeding needs to be done.

There are too many china dolls, giraffes and saddlebred looking Arabians being bred.

JMHO
Lisa
flying hooves
Liz

are you saying that an extreme head is the hallmark of our breed?????? unsure.gif

Lisa
AAArabians
Liz,

Type is indeed #1 for an arabian!

Which one is the arabian?
Which one has arabian type??

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

I can sell a head and buy 12 riding horses! And feed them all year!

I believe fewer Americans breed heads as they are hard to breed or come by!
As they are the first to sell!

I breed for heads and then breed them to body producers like Makhnificent KA!
He has the ability to fix just about anything!!!

And yes in my opinion heads have most to do with how typey a horse is.
Unless of course we are talking about what type of discipline the horse would fit into!

Then again my saddlebred mare has a typey head ( The homely type)!
2mntn
Hello Liz,

You’ve made statements that include some broad, sweeping and very subjective generalities. There are several contexts in which this topic could be discussed, depending upon how you define some things. For instance, what do you mean by this: “beautiful type that personifies the Arabian breed PLUS all the attributes of correct conformation. “? Define “beautiful type”. Define “the Arabian breed”. Define “correct conformation”.

Also define what you mean by “which lines, what countries have a corner”. A “corner” being what? Most World Champions? If so, champions at what, halter? Sold the most? Sold FOR the most? Owned by more people? How do you define success?

You say we do not have “that” left in the US. What is “that”? Are we going to be left behind – again – in world breeding? Have we ever NOT been behind? If we were ahead, how did we get there and how was it quantified? What is the “hallmark” of the breed? According to whom?

Define “breeder”. What is a “breeder”? Is this someone who puts two horses together and is then able to sell the offspring? Are we defining and measuring “breeder” by sales and dollars?

I’ll tell you who has the corner on breeding type that personifies the Arabian breed PLUS all the attributes of correct conformation. It’s the Kingdom of Bahrain with nearly 300 years of unblemished breeding practices and no outside interference. How could they NOT have the personification of the Arabian breed?? So you see, it’s all in how you define things!

I am beginning to suspect that the more Americans who get out of breeding, the better off the breed will be – eventually.

Ray
kay cochran
Dear Candi, It's easy to breed heads. As John Rogers said you can put a pretty head on in one generation but it takes 3 or more to get rid of bad legs, poor angulated shoulders, upright pasterns, poor quality hooves, and in general a poor conformation contributing to a very rough gait. No pleasure to ride. Just breed miniature horses, they are cheaper to feed, very cute, and they make very cute, pretty lawn ornaments. I like a very typey pretty head but your definition of typey is not everyone's definition of typey. You probably would not have bred to Nazeer, or Sameh, or Ibn Hafiza. You can run your self into trouble depending on one stallion to pull your horses up a notch on conformation. What if you get a plainer head(in your definition) with the cute little typey horses body? You have to think generations ahead not for this generation only just to make big bucks. You are breeding for a whole package, for the future, on a sound foundation. This is not Hollywood. You have to wake up in the morning with your decisions, without the hype, with out the makeup, without the perfect hair, and still think " By God that mare is still beautiful with knots in her mane", and think" By God that mare can trot a hole in the wind".And..............If for chance I wanted to race that horse or train her for english or train her for western, or reining , or cutting, that mare could do it! I've had mares trained for dressage, cutting , reining, general cattle work, team penning, even team roping. Now, that's what horses should be raised for. And yes, my horses have a lot of type. you don't have to ask what they are. And their legs are like iron. Kay
flying hooves
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment



you tell me what IS Arabian type?
Just some examples biggrin.gif
kay cochran
Dear Flying Hooves, That's easy They all have type! Kay
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Hello Ray,
As you know I breed Arabians using Asil horses from the Kingdom of Bahrain. One thing that I am very keen on is that the temperament is 100% and the very last thing I worry about is heads. When SE stallion Goudah (Ramiah x Gadallah) came to live with us I wanted to try him out as a stud stallion and but I was anxious about temperament as I knew nothing about SEs and was warned that they can be very hot and unpredictable. Goudah has a lovely temperament and the result of crossing him with my Bahraini mares can be seen here. These are Goudahs fillies Navaz and Durra, they had never met children before today and I was bit worried about how they might react...these photos tell the story.I cannot tell you how thrilled I was to see these three little girls together.
Jenny
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Ray, Taken this morning...pure Bahraini colt two year old Hamdaany al Bahraini By Shuwaiman al Bahrain out of Hamdanieh Habiba. Showing the temperament of the Bahraini war horse rolleyes.gif He'd sleep in your tent wink.gif
Jenny
HLM
Dear Ray, Kay and all

thanks for those photos. there is the typical example of different types, as I so often mentioned, and all look "arabian".

A head must be dry, when matured, chisseled etc, and does not have to have a "Pike Head' almost deformed and nothing else.

I dont believe that Ken Keele is riding a "head" at tevis cups, nor others. But they distinguish themselves among other breeds, being and looking like an Arabian horse AND PERFORMING like one. And that is what you all must be looking for.

I have seen some absolutely superb "Syrians" "turks" "Bahrainians"with a straight face, but so dry, so pikant, so beautful and so definitely "arabian".

If we dont stop these strange breeders of breeding for "Pike Heads" (that is the definition for a concave deformed head) and direct them into breeding a "Horse:
we are going steps backward. Personally, I lost all respect as a horsewoman for them, and dont care if they were the King of china. THEY SIMPLY FAILED ALL OF US, failed themselves!!!!

Indeed I agree, the Bahrainis, again a different type, but o my God, so superb, so excelent, so clearly a Desert Bred, such a delight to a horsman's eye and soal.

I am getting the most horrible reports in from Germany, their disgust over what is being bred by highbrand names, deteriating, and none of these "Breeders" apparently care, dont give a hoot about the "Real" arabian horse and indulge themselves in handmade glory and egotiszm. and some ME countries are actually, factually buying into this breeding disaster for fortunes!!

But the same is here in the USA. I still cant get over the last three EEs, that was absolutely divastating. yes presented well, conditiond well, but are most of them
a "Horses" HELL NO!!!!!!! Just test these ornaments under saddle and let them go at least a 25miler at the EE and you will see what I already know!!! Of course they would not do it, they know their horses cant go two tough miles, they will continue pulling the wool over peoples eyes. So what are these horses worth" I say fifty cents per pound on the hoof.!!!! I be in tears for joy if they would make me stand correct.

But look what our ignorant people are doing. they breed from "Fads" untested stallions, getting on an overfilled bandwaggin WHICH WILL CRASH!!!! And what hurts my mind and heart the most that Egypt is getting on that treadmill. I just hope their ancestors dont turn in their graves for shame. That remark DOES NOT
include the "EAO"!!!!!

Just look at the various countries promoting their SE stallions?: Checked out what they have accomplished under saddle? checked out what their breeding managers
know? Checked out what exactly they are using as foundation breeding stock?
Do it, and you will chutter for disbelieve.

therefore my dear fellow breeders/owners/riders dont be intimidated by
misrepresentation,. bullying , name throwing and intimidation.That will never last, history will tell you that. And the next time you see any of their trainers using a plastic bag, catch it and rapp it around their neck, so that they cant see you kicking them in the butt. And use a Texas Boot for it too, it's well toe pointed.


Now let's hear the flack, I am ready!

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
flying hooves
Your horses are breathtaking Jenny!!! Such a loving colt biggrin.gif


QUOTE (Jenny Lees @ Aug 15 2008, 12:27 AM)
gbfahne.gif  Ray, Taken this morning...pure Bahraini colt two year old Hamdaany al Bahraini By Shuwaiman al Bahrain out of Hamdanieh Habiba. Showing the temperament of the Bahraini war horse rolleyes.gif  He'd sleep in your tent  wink.gif
Jenny
*
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Dear Hansi, I heard a disturbing story recently of how a mare died giving birth because. It was said that she could not get enough breath due to the structure of her head giving her very small airways though which to breathe!
Jenny
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Thank you flying hooves.....I liked your examples of type too.....a well posted response.....as they say a picture paints a thousand words!
All the best,
Jenny
HLM
Dear Jenny

that could be possibly. I have seen also bad things, like bleeding through the nose because not enough oxygin could get into the lungs, and that in short sprints.Mind you many are shortchanged on the heart girth too, so what can one expect other than a disaster, eh?

I guess the Bedus knew what to breed for, their horses were and are war horses,and the Bedus are nobody's fools..Many can learn a lot from them, other than just pedigrees.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
mystikalfarms
I recently had an amusing comment from a non-arabian breeder in my area who told me what a great QH I have. After my shocked expression left my face I asked why they felt the horse was a QH? Well he is so laid-back and well mannered, he has good bone structure and muscling, his legs are straight and he looks like a real good performance horse. I corrected them by explaining that he is in fact purebred arabian ( 3 of his grandparents are SE). They told me there is no way he is an arabian because he doesn't have a pretty head (his line takes longer to dish, at 3 he is just starting to dry out)!

These people saw nothing other then a pretty face as a breed standard. And since he has good potential as an english horse to them (hunter to us of course), is well built and has good manners, he must be a QH.

A lot of what we are breeding for is to bring others into the breed, how is a good overall horse going to do that if all they see is a face. But that is what others are used to seeing. A pretty face that can't do anything else. I also appreciate a beautiful animal, but I think too much is placed on head and neck with overall conformation and most importantly legs, falling behind. I have been to many a big name farm whose horses are winning the national titles and all you see many times is a great animal up to the shoulder and not much else. How many websites do I go to where the pretty promotional shots are used. You can look at 20 pics of a horse without seeing below the hocks once, sometimes not even past the shoulder - what is that telling us? How many pics do you see of horses running through the pastures or stood up for halter in a field of flowers (which I agree make for nice picture) but are used to cover up flaws. Just look through the old magazines. Most shots were full body shots showing the type of the entire animal, not just the face!

As always, just my opinion!

Brianne
Mystikal Farms
AAArabians
Kay,

I do not have my horses dress up nor wear makeup, in
fact neither do I! However they do have extreme heads! And of course they have great bodies with wonderful motion!!! So far I have not had any mares die from lack of oxygen.And temperments to boot!
I have found that it is harder to breed an extreme head as they are very hard to find, and when you do someone from overseas buys it. I guess my quest is to have the art that painters paint. I have no crooked legs nor offset canons,
nor twisted knees. My horses are not cowhocked. Some have level toplines some do not!
My quest as a breeder is to reach the top and not settle for less.

I guess the truth lies in the fact that my question goes unanswered,
Which is the arabian and which has arabian type?
The horses face has quite a bit to do with type.
I see many breeding farms searching for typier mares(extreme heads) for their programs. In fact quite often they go overseas to find them!
I have been to many a farm to see just 1 or 2 diamonds in the rough. Would
it hurt to have all of them Diamonds?
You can have an extreme face with a great body!
If heads are the easiest to breed, Where are they???
By the way my choice would have been El Sareei.
In fact Kay I think that I have been to your farm.

KR
Candi
Robert 1
Hi Candi,
You presented some very good questions and I also will be waiting to hear how they are answered. wink.gif
Robert
AAArabians
Robert,

Your stallion is one of the typiest arabians that I have ever seen, and
his face has a lot to do with it!!

KR
Candi
2mntn
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Aug 15 2008, 01:57 AM)
Hi Candi,
You presented some very good questions and I also will be waiting to hear how they are answered. wink.gif
Robert
*


HUH?? Robert - the questions are rhetorical, for the most part, and everything else is opinion. We already know, most of us, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So what would be the point of discussing that?

The definition of "type" is going to be all over the map - equal to the number of opinions on what constitutes "beauty". Back in the early 1980's, I bred some Tennessee Walker mares to my Spanish stallion, Mandato. Many of his half-arab foals could be described, by some people, as having more "type" than the sire! It would take a good eye to know them (not all, but some) from purebred. So what would be the point of that kind of discussion regarding type??

Diamonds, eh? Well, depends on how you like them cut, I suppose. With few exceptions, a fact about breeding for extreme type can be demonstrated. Which is - with extreme heads and dainty features comes a price to pay. That price is: Any number of leg faults. Thin walled hoofs. Shallow girth. Tied in elbows. Inbreeding is a way to produce the extreme heads, right along with these other "features". Think about it. How could those features possibly be linked to an athlete? The structures are mutually exclusive - with very rare exceptions.

As Kay has pointed out - it takes several generations to correct faults - if ever. Breeding for the "market" has always been a driving force behind all livestock breeding. It's just that with horses, the market force USED to be for HORSES, not for ornamental art made of horseflesh.

I don't remember seeing, or reading about one single horse, brought out of the desert by the Spanish military commission, or the Poles, or the Blunts whose conformation was anything less than stellar. NOBODY, in those days, talked about the "dishes" they brought back!!

JMHO,
Ray
flying hooves
Ray

I think I recall reading that Lady Wentworth aquired a fine tea set from the Bedouin laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Lisa
carolmaginn
Why do these questions always have to be about heads or bodies? Why do so many people think they can't have both? What is the point of breeding arabians that do not look like arabians and who can trot to the moon and have great bodies? Don't we all strive for perfection in every way aspect of the horse - the gorgeous arabian head, the beautiful body, tail carriage, legs, feet, neck etc? I mean why would anyone settle for any part being just average?

I think that we should go for the whole total package. We may not get it all the time - but at least we have some thing to strive for. I have produced one filly that I am satisfied with to my taste so far - and I hope to produce some more like her. Her mom has a gorgeous head with a so so body and ears that are a little bit long. But I bred her to a stallion with a super body and a so so head and the result was just what I wanted.

All horses in my view are ingredients to the final horse that we strive to produce - none are perfect - but we get a little closer to what our goal is each time we breed (if we are lucky).

Candi - to answer your question I thought the chestnut horse was much more arabian in type than the bay...

Carol
AAArabians
Carol,

Your post hit the nail on the head!!!
That is what makes a breeder a good breeder, putting it all together!
If you can share how you did this with others they could also learn from this!
I always keep an open mind for new information that could make my program benefit or grow from it!

The chestnut is an incredible Quarter horse, and the faded black is an
arabian that clearly lacks arabian type! However is still an arabian!

KR
Candi
2mntn
Hello Candi and Carol,

Candi - the bay does not lack in type. How can an Arabian be anything else but an Arabian?

Carol - your first paragraph does hit the nail on the head, but does not drive it home. Why? Because of "breeding Arabians that do not look like Arabians". How can this be? Is it even possible to do this? It is the "looks like an Arabian" that is the real issue. Just what does look like an Arabian? There are just too many people who do not recognize an Arabian as an Arabian if it doesn't look like The Black Stallion.

You are doing exactly the right thing in your program - looking to use what you think are the best parts of sire and dam to get what you want in the foal. Many years down the road, when that foal produces consistently you will be on the way to building a reputation - at least among those who agree with your ideals. And this is what makes it so hard for many breeders - they try to hit a moving target if they don't stay focused on their own standards.

Ray biggrin.gif
AAArabians
Ray,

I see why you feel that the plain mare does not lack type as you judge
type by your own standard instead of the breed standards.
Everyone is entitled to their own way, and for your program I think that is admirable as this is true preservation breeding.

I try and adhere the best to the breeds standards, I guess put together during more modern times. In fact I prefer the more modern look. I guess I am not cut out for preservation breeding if that is what the horse is going to look like!

KR
Candi
An American Breeder
Carefully putting one toe in the water here. Ray, ever seen Mamage or his foals? I don't believe if you weigh type to the standard or your belief he bears any resemblance to an Arabian, especially the standard.
2mntn
QUOTE (AAArabians @ Aug 15 2008, 04:54 AM)
Ray,

I see why you feel that the plain mare does not lack type as you judge
type by your own standard instead of the breed standards.
Everyone is entitled to their own way, and for your program I think that is admirable as this is true preservation breeding.

I try and adhere the best to the breeds standards, I guess put together during more modern times. In fact I prefer the more modern look. I guess I am not cut out for preservation breeding if that is what the horse is going to look like!

KR
Candi
*


No, you don't see anything at all. You are assuming you know what my standard might be. We were not discussing the "breed standard", or modern times, or any time. We were discussing Arabian "type". And what is it, this "type" thing that we're all so hung up on?

My own "standard" has yet to be defined. But here is one result of my "standards".
This is Maaximo AHR*618941 - I selected both parents - one back in the 80's and one in 2004.

Click to view attachment

Does he lack in what you would define as "type"? All I am saying is that "type" can cover a LOT of ground. I can see type in the bay you posted. I can see type in Al Adeed Al Shaqab - it hits you over the head, right? "Type" comes in varying degrees of subtlety.

Ray biggrin.gif
kay cochran
Dear Candi, This is for you, do you know what a metaphor is? Well, that is exactly the way I was writing. And yes you were, on my farm, and why were you on my farm? Was it because you needed the big square trot that my horses have and still do? I am a retired artist. Because of arthritis I can't sketch as well as because of the stiffness in my hands. The kind of Arabs you are talking about are creations of an artists mind not the real world. You want to create "live" sculpture that is not practical. There is no such thing as just your type of Arab. An Arab can have a very exotic typey head with almost a straight profile. In fact I have had trainers tell me that the horses with extreme heads were very difficult to fit with a bit. I know that for a fact because we had to have a bit special made for a mare like that. You know what we're losing? We're losing the big tear bones and large eyes. You admitted you raised these horses to make money. The photos you posted were so obvious, how many Arabians are there that are true palominos? If you can't appreciate a beautiful example of a Belgium, a Percheron . a Haflinger, a Throughbred, or a Quarter horse, you don't truly love horses. I even like donkeys and mules, and even some Jackasses. You're welcome to come back to my farm anytime I've decided to start breeding again and I have two new foals, a black colt and a chestnut filly. Kay
carolmaginn
There really is no point in trying to get us all to agree- because we are just not all going to agree. We really need to be united Arabian breeders whatever we breed and people can do what they like best.

I think what we find here is that we all like something a little different and that is okay. My definition of "type" doesn't have to be the same as someone else's and vice versa.

I've got a little "magic garden" of arabians and they all are different colors to be used for my favorite type of arabian... Hope everyone else is enjoying their own "magic garden" too.

Carol
kay cochran
Dear Jenny, This for you. With those kind of photos with a lovely little girl and the foals, you should be able to advertise what a wonderful people loving temperament your Arabs have. You have shown the true Arab of the tent. Your horses are beautiful! Kay
Liz Salmon
What I find sad in the US is that often I have arrived at a ring during a halter class, and on many occasions unless there is a Pinto or Palomino in the ring, I'm not sure whether I'm looking a Pure breds or Half Arabs !! I see mostly bay horses with long shapeless heads,small eyes, bodies that look like sausages and legs that look like toothpicks. The movement is mediocre and only watched for 2 or 3 of strides with the head high in the air. This is so 'off type', there should be no doubt ever that one is watching Purebreds.

This does not happen in any other countries show ring and I've watched in 27 countries, and judged in 15. Watching the British Nationals a couple of weeks ago, I was thinking that not one horse resembled anything but a Pure bred—obviously some better than others. For me an Arab has got to scream 'I'm an Arabian ' leaving me in no doubt.
carolmaginn
Well that is what I meant when I said - "Whats the point of breeding an arabian that doesn't look like an arabian". If you would rather breed half arabs - then do that, but I just think an arabian should look like an arabian without any doubt....

Carol


QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Aug 15 2008, 06:46 AM)
What I find sad in the US is that often I have arrived at a ring during a halter class, and on many occasions unless there is a Pinto or Palomino in the ring, I'm not sure whether I'm looking a Pure breds or Half Arabs !! I see mostly bay horses with long shapeless heads,small eyes, bodies that look like sausages and legs that look like toothpicks. The movement is mediocre and only watched for 2 or 3 of strides with the head high in the air. This is so 'off type', there should be no doubt ever that one is watching Purebreds.

This does not happen in any other countries show ring and I've watched in 27 countries, and judged in 15. Watching the British Nationals a couple of weeks ago, I was thinking that not one horse resembled anything but a Pure bred—obviously some better than others. For me an Arab has got to scream 'I'm an Arabian ' leaving me in no doubt.
*
BasiliskBelka
Good RIDING HORSE conformation is an indivisible part of Arabian type - since that is what they *are*: the world's toughest riding horse. Good tail carriage is also essential - since it is part of the breed's vital survival mechanism to cope with its environment. Likewise, a dry head is also part of the heat-loss system and is thus essential. But a 'pike head' as Hansi puts it, is NOT part of original Arabian type: it's primarily a modern (and largely western) modification of the Bedouin type, as exemplified by Jenny Lees' Bahreinis.

One of the most impressively Arabian horses I have ever seen was a 15/16th Davenport stallion: his head wasn't even overly wedge-shaped, but it was dry: he just PULSATED with Arabian quality. You would never have taken him for anything else.

Whenever I see photos of the modern Barbie handbag horses, i often wonder what the Blunts would have made of them, bearing in mind that they thought the Ali Pasha Sherif horses were 'type etherialised to the point of extinction'!!!!!

Keren
BasiliskBelka
Appeared twice for some reason!

Keren
Liz Salmon
Any breed of horse for riding should have 'good riding conformation' with great hock engagement and free shoulder movement. Over and above that is breed type—the hallmark of each breed. The hallmarks for the Arabian should be the head (short, large eyes, dinner plate cheeks, small, fine muzzle with large nostrils), short back, flamboyant tail carriage and that floating trot with exuberant presence.
An American Breeder
Maybe people should use that short description on all their websites!
kay cochran
Dear Liz, You are absolutely right. I went to a horse show and I have never seen so many ugly Arabians in one place in my life! When the half Arabian class has more type than the purebreds it is bad. I quit going. K
Liz Salmon
That's why I've turned my back on US Nationals this year and am going to the Middle Eastern Championships instead, to see great horses shown more naturally.
Jenny Lees
[quote=2mntn,Aug 15 2008, 05:15 AM]
No, you don't see anything at all. You are assuming you know what my standard might be. We were not discussing the "breed standard", or modern times, or any time. We were discussing Arabian "type". And what is it, this "type" thing that we're all so hung up on?

gbfahne.gif Hi Ray...please tell me who wrote "the breed standard" and what is the US standard ?

When I came back from the Middle East in 1969 for a short holiday I viisted studs here in the UK and at that time the Arab Horse Society "breed standard" was laid down as mares had to be 14 hands 2" and under and stallions a max of 15 hands....who? what? when? why? My Bahraini stallion at that time was 16 hands and one comment was "at that height he cannot be a pure Arabian".....nowadays this height is perfectly acceptable and almost desirable. Fads and fashions..... ph34r.gif I'll stick with what I learned from the Bedu.
best wishes,
Jenny,
Jenny Lees
QUOTE (kay cochran @ Aug 15 2008, 06:15 AM)
Dear Jenny, This for you.  With those kind of photos with a lovely little girl and the foals, you should be able to advertise what a wonderful people loving temperament your Arabs have.  You have shown the true Arab of the tent. Your horses are beautiful!  Kay
*


gbfahne.gif Thank you Kay....it is part of my stud stallion selection process wink.gif biggrin.gif I think the boys pass round the word...behave from day one or they come off ohmy.gif
Jenny
Nadj al Nur
Personally, I think the term "arabian type" is a misnomer. There were MANY different types in the desert, each one unmistakably Arabian. Trying to squash them all into the same mold is why we have these problem discussions.
That being said, there ARE many things that set the arabian horse apart from other breeds, and dryness, NOT just of the head, but an overall dryness, is one of them. Their eyes are placed lower in the head. Their windpipe is looser. Their heart is bigger than comparative breeds of the same size (that's something that few people know) and YES, tail carriage is important, and beauty is important, but beauty is a pretty subjective thing.
Like Kay, I am an artist (altho NOT retired) and one of the first things I look for is overall ballance to define beauty. If one feature jumps out in either a positive OR a negative way, there can be no balance, and no harmony. All parts must fit together and compliment each other so that one is not more memorable than another. Then there is beauty.........many different "types" of beauty. All of them arabian.
Correct structure goes without saying, for ANY breed.
Cathy
2mntn
QUOTE (Jenny Lees @ Aug 15 2008, 05:00 PM)
gbfahne.gif  Hi Ray...please tell me who wrote "the breed standard" and what is the US standard ? 

When I came back from the Middle East in 1969 for a short holiday I viisted studs here in the UK and at that time the Arab Horse Society  "breed standard" was laid down as mares had to be 14 hands 2" and under and stallions a max of 15 hands....who? what? when? why? My Bahraini stallion at that time was 16 hands and one comment was "at that height he cannot be a pure Arabian".....nowadays this height is perfectly acceptable and almost desirable. Fads and fashions..... ph34r.gif  I'll stick with what I learned from the Bedu.
best wishes,
Jenny,
*


Hello Jenny,

First - thank you for posting those wonderful photos - those "three" fillies are very, very cute. biggrin.gif

The breed standard was written by - author unknown - but the standard can be found within the USEF (United States Equestrian Federation - the National Governing Body for Equestrian Sport). Here is the standard:

AR102 Breed Standards.
Comparatively small head, profile of head straight or preferably slightly concave below the eyes; small muzzle, large nostrils, extended when in action; large, round, expressive, dark eyes set well apart (glass eyes shall be penalized in Breeding classes); comparatively short distance between eye and muzzle; deep jowls, wide between the branches; small ears (smaller in stallions than mares), thin and well shaped, tips curved slightly inward; long arched neck, set on high and running well back into moderately high withers; long sloping shoulder well laid over with muscle; ribs well sprung; long, broad forearm; short cannon bone with large sinew; short back; loins broad and strong; croup comparatively horizontal;
natural high tail carriage. Viewed from rear, tail should be carried straight; hips strong and round; well muscled thigh and gaskin; straight, sound, flat bone; large joints, strong and well defined; sloping pasterns of good length; round feet of proportionate size. Height from 14.1 to 15.1 hands, with an occasional individual over or under. Fine coat in varying colors of bay, chestnut, grey and black. Dark skin, except under white markings. Stallions especially should have an abundance of natural vitality, animation, spirit, suppleness and balance.


Interesting to note is that USEF first "recognized" the Arabian as a "breed" in 1951.
Can you believe it!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Yes, it's almost laughable.

Cheers!!

Ray
AAArabians
Kay,

The horse at your farm that I admired was the only one there that could
move as I liked, He is the best mover that I have ever seen!!!! He captivates you with his motion and charisma!!!
And yes Kay, I do have in mind as I breed to make a sale! You
see it is a hobby that is large, so it has to help support itself!
We do also help small breeders obtain horses that otherwise might
be a bit pricey with a foal back program to help stimulate other hobby goers.
So I am sure that you would like to give your horses away as money has nothing to do with breeding, if so I would like one breeding to that wonderful stallion of yours!

Liz Salmon,

My breeding program has been guided by your expertise over the years.
I believe that any newcomer could as I have use advice from Liz to
help form their breeding program!

Hansi and others,

Isn't calling a dished head a Pike head the same as calling a plain head a
mailbox?? There are extreme heads with no dishes(Pikes). Then there are
plain heads with no dishes(mailboxes).
I prefer saying the horse lacks type.
When I describe my own horse with a plain head and great body.
I say that my mare has a great body ;however, lacks type!
Where would I look for improvement? Her head! Type!
I think that if we do not improve our type in our american arabians,
we will be left in the dust!!!!!

KR
Candi
An American Breeder
And yet another description of the Arabian breed standard - circle 2000

Comparatively small head, profile of head straight or concave below the eyes; small muzzle, large nostrils, extended when in action; large, round, expressive, dark eyes set well apart with white (sclera) showing in the eye not to be penalized (glass eyes shall be penalized); comparatively short distance between eye and muzzle; deep jowls, wide between the branches; small ears (smaller in stallions than mares), thin and well shaped, tips curved slightly inward; arched neck, set on high and running well back into moderately high withers, in balance with the rest of the body; long sloping shoulder well laid over with muscle; ribs well sprung; long, broad forearm; short cannon bone with large sinew; short back; loins broad and strong; croup to be comparatively horizontal, that is a croup not necessarily flat, but a good working croup allowing rear action to come well underneath the horse when traveling; natural high tail carriage. Viewed from rear, tail should be carried straight; hips strong and round; well muscled thigh and gaskin; straight, sound, flat bone; large joints, strong and well defined; sloping pasterns of good length; round feet of proportionate size. Height from 14.1 to 15.3 hands, with an occasional individual over or under. Fine coat in varying colors of bay, chestnut, gray and black. Dark skin, except under white markings. Stallions especially should have an abundance of natural vitality, animation, spirit, suppleness and balance.
Liz Salmon
It was Lady Wentworth I believe who said that the first sign of degeneration in Arabians showed first in the head. In my opinion that is what we have been getting in the US show ring until recently—long, plain, shapeless head with no large cheeks, small, high set eyes and thick rubbery muzzles. The head does not have to have a dish to be typey, but must be short with the description I gave. A straight profile can be extremely typey if it fits the description.
2mntn
QUOTE (flying hooves @ Aug 15 2008, 03:38 AM)
Ray

I think I recall reading that Lady Wentworth aquired a fine tea set from the Bedouin  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

Lisa
*



I stand corrected!!

Ray wink.gif
Jenny Lees
[Interesting to note is that USEF first "recognized" the Arabian as a "breed" in 1951.
Can you believe it!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Yes, it's almost laughable.

Cheers!!

Ray
*

[/quote]
Oh! The breed is younger than me then laugh.gif but then so are most things nowadays..doctors, policemen, clergy unsure.gif

Jenny
HLM
Dear Liz and all

the problem often lies with "seminars" espcially when given at a breeder's place. there the people will see the breeding of such farm with hardly ever any comparrison. this is how brainwashing starts.

I prefer seminars during which many different types are shown and explained, explained as to what one can expect from such conformation of each type, etc.

Many a times seminars became marketing tools, and not a general education.
And there is where the general problem lies in my opinion.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
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