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placido
Recently I traveled some distance to look at a young stallion listed for sale on the internet. I had corresponded considerably with the owner of this horse, and really liked the horse's pedigree. I asked to see several recent photos before making my trip to see this young stallion.

When I arrived, the horse presented to me looked considerably different than the horse in the photos! He was much coarser (neck heavier, face not as elegant, etc) and a much lighter shade of grey. I expressed my suprise to the owner, and he said that the photos were taken when the stallion was a yearling (he is a 3 year old now). He went on to say that he had taken more recent photos of this stallion, but that he thought the yearling photos were better, so that's what he continued to use in his for sale ads.

I didn't say anything at the time, but I'm thinking that's not exactly a great way to offer a horse for sale and he is still offering it for sale with the same yearling photos!. I didn't buy the horse. I would like to hear from others about whether it is misrepresentation to continue to use old photos like this, or is this a common practice? Maybe some horses don't change so much from yearling to 3 year old year, but I think that stallions, particularly, can and often do change. In fact, I've seen many foals start out extremely exotic and then become quite plain by the time they're grown, and I've seen the reverse as well.

I just came away with a very strange feeling about the whole thing.

placido
mckulley1
Not divulging the age of the photos wasn't right.

Expect desperate times to call for desperate measures....which involves inaccurate descriptions, altered photos, etc.

Many many years ago I had a client buy a filly from a breeder in WI. The photos and the pedigree and even the video showed a beautiful filly. When the filly got to her home, several states away, she had to match the registration papers to the horse that got off the trailer....the difference was so severe she did not believe she had received the correct horse! Of course, she had.....
Kimberli Nelson
If the horse I am looking at is 15 and they send me photo of her when she was 10, I am fine with that. To see a horse in their prime and then when it is older tells allot. But if I am looking a young horse, I want a current photos of the horse not yearling or weanling photos. It is only fair to send you both the super baby photos and then what they look like today as horses change so very much in the first 5 years of life.

I think they are misrepresenting the horse but it may not be intentional fraud on their part.
barbara.gregory
I have advertised my stallion and his photos are a couple of years old as I am such a rotten photographer that, despite many attempts, I have yet to even get a current photo that makes him look like a horse rather than a mule. He still looks very similar to what he did then, no major change and I did say the photos were a couple of years old.

If he had changed dramatically for the worse then I would not have used the photos but if I posted my photos I really wouldn't do him justice. It isn't right to use photos because he was better then but if he is the same and they are better photos then to me that is perfectly acceptable.

Barbara
gbfahne.gif
Razgold
I had a DVD of a horse that I liked and decided to go and look at her to be told when I got there that they had sold her but they had another one for sale. The horse I went to see was a grey in the DVD. The horse they offered me was bay. I liked the bay and bought her and asked to see the other horse as she hadn't gone to her new yet. She was definately grey but I didn't like her as much so pleased with the one I bought.

3 years later just by accident I find out the first horse I went to see (the grey) turned out to be a chestnut. So what horse they had shown me I had no idea.

Be sure your lies will come back and bite you in the butt!

Sue.
placido
Thank you ladies for your input. I think it was probably ignorance on the part of the seller. I don't think he thought he was doing anything wrong, but he definitely did misrepresent the horse. If he had used foal pictures I surely would have noticed that they weren't recent, but as a yearling, the colt looked pretty mature. Kimberly, I agree with you that it isn't a big deal for someone to use photos of a older horse that show that horse as a mature horse, maybe in his prime. That could be very helpful, as such a picture would probably give a truer picture of a horse's conformation than a picture of the same horse in old age. I don't have a problem with that.

Sue, you are no doubt right that even innocent misrepresentation may come back around to bite the seller in the butt. It was my first thought that it was going to be hard for him to sell his horses using old photos of them, a little like an internet romance where one person sends the other person an old photo taken when that person was younger, slimmer, prettier, etc. biggrin.gif

McKulley1, I guess it's bigtime buyer beware.


placido
carolmaginn
Placido,

So sorry that this happened to you. I think that it is very important to be honest to a fault. I don't care if the person was lazy - its still misrepresentation any way you look at it. I have heard stories like yours before and it is really unfortunate that people will waste other people's time like that.

Good luck in your search - I hope you find what you are looking for...

Carol
placido
Thanks Carol. I agree and I'm still looking. smile.gif

placido
mckulley1
It's only going to get worse as people get more desperate.

Buyer beware. Know what you're buying before you buy it. Work with people who are reputable by way of asking for their references. Work with agents who are reputable by way of references.




QUOTE (placido @ Sep 2 2008, 09:11 PM)
McKulley1, I guess it's bigtime buyer beware.
placido
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carolmaginn
Placido,

If I can ever help in any way please do not hesitate to ask. I have gone to look at horses for friends before and taken video and photos for them. Certainly if you find a horse near Texas it would be very easy to help you...

I don't know what your list of requirements are in a stallion, you can email me and I would keep my eye out for you.

Good luck in your search!

Carol

QUOTE (placido @ Sep 2 2008, 08:46 PM)
Thanks Carol.  I agree and I'm still looking.  smile.gif

placido
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kay cochran
Extremely unethical! K
Robert 1
Working with an ( AGENT) compounds the problem, now there is a middle person, it is like getting hersay information. Unless the so called agent has their own pics and info that they have taken and recorded, which most do not have because they have not gone to see the horse in the flesh.
The old saying is get attracted by a pic or video and the GO AND SEE THE HORSE FOR YOUR SELF BEFORE BUYING.
It will be less expensive because you save the AGENTS FEE. wink.gif
Robert,
mckulley1
Using an agent can be very valuable. HOWEVER not all agents are made equal and neither are their fees.

Not all people need to use one either when looking for something to purchase.

I have worked with top oil executives down to your average person. Think of using an agent for a horse like using one for Real Estate....but unfortunately there is currently no "Equine Agent" association. mad.gif

You might want to use a reputable agent if:

You are looking for something special that is not publicly advertised.

You want to have some kind of anonymity in your search (for some people, the minute sellers find out they're looking the price goes UP. For some people they just don't want everyone to know that they ARE looking).

You have a busy lifestyle and/or have looked and looked and are tired of digging through the classifieds and calling people. Letting someone else bring you individuals to look at can help speed up the process.

You're overseas and can't see everything in person.
mckulley1
BTW Carol, speaking of photos you're currently using a photo of a mare on your new sales page that is highly outdated and does not represent the mare in her current state. Just an FYI....you might request something current from her owner...
carolmaginn
Hi Amanda,

Thanks for your thoughts... What mare are you referring to?

Many thanks,

Carol

QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Sep 3 2008, 09:58 AM)
BTW Carol, speaking of photos you're currently using a photo of a mare on your new sales page that is highly outdated and does not represent the mare in her current state.  Just an FYI....
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mckulley1
I think you know who....and I have no interest in dragging her owner into this discussion.

But you might inform the owner that she's currently using a YEARLING photo of the same mare on HER website....
LMG
Robert is absolutely correct - Always go see the horse. I've seen photos and DVD's of horses, and not ones that were doctored or too old, etc., and still there is a great deal of difference between the living animal, not being stretched, or run about for the DVD for promotional effect and photos. I always look a lot older in photos than the twenty-five iyears that I'm sure I look.

It is very obvious that you should not even rely upon the opinions of people you respect when it comes to the "eye appeal" even if you accept their opinion about structural correctness.

The old saw that: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," is absolutely true. And friends of mine and I may agree on the slope of the shoulder, the straightness of the leg, the depth of the hip and the lenghthof the neck and then everything else about the horse may very well be the difference between those who love contemporary art and those that think Frederick Remington was the last great American Artist.

LMG
placido
QUOTE
The old saying is get attracted by a pic or video and the GO AND SEE THE HORSE FOR YOUR SELF BEFORE BUYING.


This is what I did, and like I said, I didn't buy the horse, so I saved myself that grief by going to see the horse, but had I seen a recent picture of the stallion, I probably wouldn't have paid. Yes, certainly anyone looking for a horse to buy should see the horse in front of him before laying down any cash, whenever possible. This has taught me a few more questions to ask before I pay for my plane ticket.

About agents, I have acted as an agent myself on occasion, so I don't have a problem with people helping others sell or buy horses. That brings up a whole other set of questions buyers and sellers should ask so that you know the person "helping" is reputable. I've found the internet to be a wealth of information about individual people when I want to know a little "history". Amazing what can be found.

Carol, business occupies most of my time for the next few weeks, but when I get free time, I will surely PM you. If you know of a well-bred, well balanced, free moving SE stallion with a graceful neck, beautiful typey head, good legs, and great tail carriage whose owner is not asking too much, feel free to PM me or email me. My email address is in my profile.

Thanks all.

placido
2mntn
QUOTE (placido @ Sep 3 2008, 06:06 PM)
...
Carol, business occupies most of my time for the next few weeks, but when I get free time, I will surely PM you.  If you know of a well-bred, well balanced, free moving SE stallion with a graceful neck, beautiful typey head, good legs, and great tail carriage whose owner is not asking too much, feel free to PM me or email me.  My email address is in my profile.

Thanks all.

placido
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Carol - if you find all that, please post it right here - I'd like to see that horse...for sale or not. laugh.gif

Ray biggrin.gif
Robert 1
Hi Lorriee and Placido,
LMG of course you only look 29 just as I do laugh.gif but, it certainly has given us some expert expierences 0ver the years, now hasn't it. biggrin.gif
Of course I have no objections to a buyer gathering another opinion and for this there are qualified people, each having over forty years expierence each, to name a
few would be Judi Forbis, Liz Salmon and Hansi Heck biggrin.gif
However the final step is to see them yourself when ever possibly because as LMG says beauty and quality is in the eye of the buyer. biggrin.gif
Robert
placido
QUOTE (2mntn @ Sep 3 2008, 06:14 PM)
Carol - if you find all that, please post it right here - I'd like to see that horse...for sale or not.  laugh.gif

Ray  biggrin.gif
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I don't ask for much, do I, Ray? wink.gif Robert, of course, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

placido
2mntn
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Sep 3 2008, 06:18 PM)
Hi Lorriee and Placido,
LMG of course you only look 29 just as I do laugh.gif but, it certainly has given us some expert expierences 0ver the years, now hasn't it. biggrin.gif
Of course I have no objections to a buyer gathering another opinion and for this there are qualified people, each having over forty years expierence each, to name a
few would be Judi Forbis, Liz Salmon and Hansi Heck  biggrin.gif
However the final step is to see them yourself when ever possibly because as LMG says beauty and quality is in the eye of the buyer. biggrin.gif
Robert
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Speaking of Hansi, when I was inquiring about her horses for sale she insisted that I come and see them. In addition to actually seeing the horses, some other benefits were getting to see some of the parents and other horses and getting to know Hansi and Bill and see their farm, operations, etc. Well worth the trip in all respects!

Ray biggrin.gif
carolmaginn
Ray,

I surely will post that photo if Placido says its okay - after all - it will be his horse right wink.gif

Carol

QUOTE (2mntn @ Sep 3 2008, 12:14 PM)
Carol - if you find all that, please post it right here - I'd like to see that horse...for sale or not.  laugh.gif

Ray  biggrin.gif
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AAArabians
QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Sep 3 2008, 04:11 PM)
I think you know who....and I have no interest in dragging her owner into this discussion.

But you might inform the owner that she's currently using a YEARLING photo of the same mare on HER website....
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Sour Grapes!!!!!

As for the photo of JewelAKA Madeline it is a very accurate rep of her as she has only gotten better and we do not enhance our photos in any way!
As she is grey she is a few shades lighter; Furthermore we all know that grey horses do lighten!
The plus with unaltered/ enhanced photos is that the horses always look far better in real life!!!!

We are working on a beautiful video of her as we speak! Which once again shows how much better she is today!! And she can move!
She also is from the rare K strain!
mckulley1
Sour grapes?

We're talking about misrepresentation by using photos for marketing of an older horse with yearling photos.

But of course....you can do no wrong. biggrin.gif
Solita
How is that Misrepresentation!
If the photo was of a different horse then THAT would be misrepresentation.
How about stallions at stud that don't get new photos done for years and use the same old ones, is that also misrepresenting??



QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Sep 3 2008, 09:37 PM)
Sour grapes?

We're talking about misrepresentation by using photos for marketing of an older horse with yearling photos.

But of course....you can do no wrong.†† biggrin.gif
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mckulley1
Oh, I don't know Solita? How IS that misrepresentation?

You only have the original poster saying how she traveled to see the horse and the yearling photos supplied where not a representation of the horse at the later age.
2mntn
QUOTE (Solita @ Sep 3 2008, 09:47 PM)
How on earth is that Misrepresentation!!
If the photo was of a different horse then THAT would be misrepresentation.
How about stallions at stud that don't get knew photos done for years and use the same old ones, is that also misrepresenting??
*


I don't think we have a concensus of opinion (yet) on whether or not people would consider this to be misrepresenting.

I am nearly always surprised at how much different a horse looks on a photo than it does in real life. The real thing is almost always a disappointment, after the photo. So, I suppose a stretch could be made to say that any photo could be said to be misrepresentation.

Something for sale is another category. Photos should be accurate, or slathered in disclaimers. Because now we're talking time and money and...well, you know the rest!!

Ray biggrin.gif
mckulley1
Worth repeating!

My sale horses are photographed at least once a year (unless they are most certainly done growing/changing and nothing has changed since the last photo shoot). Most are done twice a year, and I have several clients that having changing youngsters and do photos every 3-4 months.


QUOTE (2mntn @ Sep 3 2008, 05:00 PM)
Something for sale is another category.  Photos should be accurate, or slathered in disclaimers.  Because now we're talking time and money and...well, you know the rest!!

Ray  biggrin.gif
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carolmaginn
Amanda,

AA Shez A Jewel is actually much prettier now then she was as a yearling. Her face has become drier and she has filled out more in her body. Thank you for reminding us of this.

We will get more updated photos of her so that everyone can see that she how much prettier she has become .

Thanks again for the positive feeback! Good luck with all your horse match making efforts as well. Things really seem to be taking off from what I've seen lately in the horse market.

Carol





QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Sep 3 2008, 03:58 PM)
Oh, I don't know Solita? How IS that misrepresentation?

You only have the original poster saying how she traveled to see the horse and the yearling photos supplied where not a representation of the horse at the later age.
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mckulley1
So in general, using aged photos is only acceptable if the owner/agent believes the horse to be BETTER than in the photos?

blink.gif
Solita
OK mckulley is it also misrepresentation if you take current photos and you get one that is gorgeous but really looks nothing like the horse in everyday life.
I have seen plenty of horses in person that do not even come close to looking like their gorgeous new photos........is that misrepresentation????????



QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Sep 3 2008, 09:58 PM)
Oh, I don't know Solita? How IS that misrepresentation?

You only have the original poster saying how she traveled to see the horse and the yearling photos supplied where not a representation of the horse at the later age.
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carolmaginn
In my opinion that is called "over promising and under delivering". That was what upset the original posted who started this thread I believe. I am sure that if she had arrived and the stallion was much better than the photos - the reaction would have been completely different.


QUOTE (Solita @ Sep 3 2008, 04:27 PM)
OK mckulley is it also misrepresentation if you take current photos and you get one that is gorgeous but really looks nothing like the horse in everyday life.
I have seen plenty of horses in person that do not even come close to looking like their gorgeous new photos........is that misrepresentation????????
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mckulley1
If the photos are so good because they were altered. Yes, that's misrepresentation.

If you're using a yearling photos of a five year old horse AND don't put in ( ) under the photo stating the age of the horse in the photo and/or don't tell anyone when they inquire that those photos are highly outdated, then Yes.

It's like selling a 2000 model vehicle with it's new car photo when in fact it's 2008 and that vehicle is now 8 years old! Or selling a couch with it's new couch photo when it's in fact many years old. I'm sure I could catch many men with my Senior high school photos but the fact is....they're MANY years old! How honest is that?

I'm sure Placido would have wished they had been told or it had been written as to what age the horse was in those photos. I'm sure the owner thought that "he looks better in person any way so what does it matter"? Well, it matters to those who travel to see or might buy off of photos (not wise, but is done).

There are VERY FEW horses people are going to buy off of the one glamor shot..."most" people supply multiple photos of the horse and chances are HIGH that each photo is not going to be a glamor shot.
mckulley1
Very true.


QUOTE (carolmaginn @ Sep 3 2008, 05:33 PM)
In my opinion that is called "over promising and under delivering".  That was what upset the original posted who started this thread I believe.  I am sure that if she had arrived and the stallion was much better than the photos - the reaction would have been completely different.
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carolmaginn
Amanda,

Jewel's owner will get updated photos so everyone can see how she has matured and bloomed. She only recently got her mare back from a person who defaulted on a contract. The mare deserved some recovery time after the trip home.

Certainly this owner's photo's are usually very current, but you can't take a photo when the mare is not in your possession. In this special situation I think an older photo that doesn't over promise on her quality is fine while waiting for updated photos that are on the way.

I'm happy to make a note of the age of the mare when the photo was taken. In fact - its already been updated.

Thanks again,

Carol
placido
Uh..."she" is a "he". ph34r.gif and my "test" for the future will be: If I take the photos I've been sent of a horse with me to where the horse is located, and I can't find that horse in a pasture of 5 or so horses, using that photo, then the photo is misleading at best. Also of note, "better" is a very subjective term. What is better to me might not be better to someone else, so I would settle for the photo being "current", as in taken sometime the same year.

Obviously there's stuff going on in this thread that is beyond my understanding, but I really don't see how anyone can say it's ok to use yearling photos to try to sell 3 year old horses, whether the horse is better or worse is not the issue. What would the purpose of that be?

placido
Solita
I think In selling a horse you have to put your best photo forward to grab initial attention.
I would rather see a yearling photo than no photo at all. I hate ads that don't have a photo and usually overlook them.
When inquiring on a sales horse I always ask for a current photo but usually never get one.

QUOTE (placido @ Sep 3 2008, 11:00 PM)
I really don't see how anyone can say it's ok to use yearling photos to try to sell 3 year old horses, whether the horse is better or worse is not the issue.  What would the purpose of that be?

placido
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maryjo
What I find more disgusting than a picture which over enhances a horse is saying a horse is 16 hands when in fact it is barely 14 3.

When I am looking for a prospect, size DOES matter. And I cannot tell you how many times people claim their horse is 15 3 or 16 hands. And have never ever put a stick on it (at least a stick with a level).

Buy a measuring stick, PLEASE. A USEF approved one. And learn how to use it.

MaryJo
AAArabians
Placido,

If you are looking at a horse that is that much different than when it was 1.5 versus 5, maybe it is not the same horse????! The only real major changes would be greying out on a grey. All the parts are about the same other than they dry out in the face, which is to breeders is a great thing! as for structure and motion they are constants.

When people come to our farm our horses are always better than our photos as we are not photographers.

As for our mare that we have just gotten back, we just figured a video would be better than doing new photos. She still looks and moves the same , just a bit lighter as she is a grey and her face is far more chiseled which I consider
always better. And we find that buyers usually would prefer a video.
If someone would like more current fotos we accomodate!
Most buyers like to see all the foto phases.

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