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aanuket2001
I was recently talking with a friend about the situation of low registration and the troubles with AHA and I mentioned the old days of Lasma , how they dominated the 1980s with million dollar auctions and promotions , lavish barn parties with Hollywood stars and she answered “What’s Lasma?” I was really stunned but I then realized that she was only 15 back in the 1980s and had no idea the impact Lasma had on the Arabian horse industry.

In the 80’s Scottsdale was the auction center of the Arab world. In 1981, Tom Chauncey paid $600,000 for Miss Congnac (Cognac x Serbaya), In 1983 Gardenia (Bask x Gdynia) sold for $1,500,000. But those prices were eclipsed in 1984 by NH Love Potion (Back Street x Sha Baska) who brought in $2,550,000 and a three mare package netted $3,600,000 in the Lasma Classic sale. This particular sale grossed $15,253,000. In 1985 19 mares in the Polish Ovation brought $10,805,000 for an average of $568,684. Seven sales and $14 million plus in 1981, eight sales and nearly $29 million in 1982, 11 sales and over $33 million in 1983; ten sales and just over $39 million in 1984; and 11 sales and just over $45 million in 1985. In 1986 with 13 sales, 339 horses, a gross of $28,924,000 and an average of $85,322.

These were also the days of $20,000 and $30,000 stud fees. Bandos (Negatiw x Bandola) = $30,000 – Menes (Nabg x Metroplia) = $20,000 – Pesnair (Nabg x Pesnia) $30,000 – Arn-Ett Perlane (Perlezon x Shadylane Jupiter) = $20,000 - Padron (Patron x Odessa) = $25,000. Even back in the day I could never figure out the return on the foals produced by these stallions.
My question is:

Do we need another promotional vehicle like Lasma? Were all these sales and prices really good for the breed? The dark side of all this was so many non-horse people were caught up in the hype and glitter and over bred trying to get that tax break and when the tax loophole closed, the farms began dumping horses left and right. Many were sold to slaughter or died from neglect. Some wonderful bloodlines were lost forever because of it.

I have heard some say that we need to get back to the lavish parties and promote our horses to the ultra rich because if the top tier is solid, the lower tier will benefit.

What are your thoughts on this?

Any old codgers out there like me who remember this part of the history of our industry?

Marie
smokygirl
A healthy top tier is important. If the top benefits, it rains down on the rest of the tiers. But, it only works if the top tier really is healthy, and not just a mirage of healthiness (such as the 80s were).
kay cochran
I can tell you what some of the old , old, breeders thought, like John Rogers. He thought the bubble would burst and the horse market would drop, He told us this way back in the early 80's. He had been around long enough to see the market on Arabians fluctuate. He felt like real price on Arabs would be comparable to the 50's and 60's prices. He said the prices were not real prices but were based on the tax laws at that time. K
Mollie
I seriously doubt that the likes of Tom Chauncey paid these very high prices for the sale horses - if they paid money at all. The newbies to Arabian horses, they were the ones that in my opinion were suckered in. I sincerely hope we do not see the likes of Lasma again. Gene, Jr. was found out that his sales were not on the up and up. The high point in gluttony was no doubt when you had to show proof that you had enough money to buy at their sale, only then would you be admitted. That is what chasing after the prestige does to a person. I still remember an article in Arabian Horse World where Gene's horse threw a shoe and it was weighed and found to be over the maximum weight. GBE defended him ferociously - it was just a little bit over, she wrote. And people are just a little bit dead when they die wink.gif

I met Gene, Jr. at a seminar. I had asked that Hask be brought out of his stall, Gene said an abrupt no. I pointed out that in the stall, he looked rather dumpy the way he was standing. Gene just said "Ohhhhh" then walked away. His brother Ray had just finished with Cognac and was wiping him down. Ray totally ignored me to the point I wasn't even there. His girl friend was very nice though. I look like a little orphan but I could have bought a horse at one of Lasma's sales. But since I didn't look the part, Lasma didn't want much to do with me.

And we want this back? People may not have enough money to buy a Lasma horse so they buy one of yours. Think so? Not if Lasma treats them like dirt when they are all excited to see the grandparents of the horse they are considering buying from you.
DJS
Having been around the Arabian industry since before Lasma, it's my opinion that in the long run, they did more harm than good. In the "old days", people wanted Arabs because they were versatile, beautiful, loyal, and just plain great horses. Lasma came along, and pretty soon your Arabian had to look and trot like a Saddlebred or they weren't worth a dime. I may get slammed for this, but looking back, I don't think the Lasma years were a good thing for the Arabian, and I hope to never see a repeat.
aanuket2001
I vaguely remember that Gene was in a park horse class at the nationals and the horse was lame as goose. He won the class anyway and had to lead the horse out of the ring, the horse was in such pain he couldn't be ridden. Was this true?
Marie
kay cochran
DJ, Remember when blood typing became a part of registration? It happened about the time all those Bask bred high trotting mares that looked saddlebredy came into exsistance. We had heard from a groom that had worked at Lasma that there were a bunch of saddlebred mares way in the back pasture. No one ever saw these mares. Bask was about 14' 2" so where did all those tall leggy mares come from? K
Mollie
And wouldn't it be interesting to do some mitrochondrial dna testing on those lines smile.gif
Mollie

QUOTE (kay cochran @ Sep 7 2008, 06:28 PM)
DJ, Remember when blood typing became a part of registration?  It happened about the time all those Bask bred high trotting mares that looked saddlebredy came into exsistance.  We  had heard from a groom that had worked at Lasma that there were a bunch of saddlebred mares way in the back pasture.  No one ever saw these mares.  Bask was about 14' 2" so where did all those tall leggy mares come from?    K
*
Piaff
Hhmm , well, it is easy to talk about saddlebred mares in hindsight..
May be early ET ??? I have seen many Bask children, and they were not all that tall and leggy.
I have crossed a not so big Bask son with a not so leggy Probat daughter, and got a very leggy 15.3HH stallion out of that cross.
Besides: all of these horses would be failing DNA testing these days : my Bask sons were tested 3 times, and I guess that if they could test mine, they also have been able to test the rest of them,

I think that Dr. Lacroix was a knowledgable HORSE person to whom the US thanks many very good Polish horses.
I think their marketing was very good, just not entirely for the long run.

Many,many very good horses have vanished without papers, because of financial problems of the owners, many ended up in feedlot sales.
Some very expensive, very good horses have been found there, imported horses that were only identified by the brand from the Polish state studs.

That was not because of Lasma, it was pure economics, nationwide, not because of Lasma
Talking to you ?? Well, 95% of the big farms operated that way and STILL do, that is nothing new.

Many arabs STILL end up in a feedlot, pregnant no less.
Then the hype was Lasma, now it is something else, then it was performance now it is dished heads.
And thus it goes on.
Pete Hiatt
I could tell you stories that would shock and dismay you, but others have already told the important parts. We are far better off without the likes of Lasma. If you want to see saddlebreds, just look at the two major magazines showing photos of performance "Arabians". Fake prices were not just at Lasma. The last we saw were at a Scottsdale sale where all the old timers were asked to bid and nothing would count. It was lots of fun to bid $50 K on a $1500 horse.

The death of the saddlebred line in high prices was followed by high prices in Arabians. This was a very unfortunate thing. First, it brought the trainers over from the saddlebreds followed at about the same time by the saddlebred judges. This was horrible for Arabians as they both wanted to see saddlebred movement. This was solved by back of the barn breeding to saddlebreds. For a time we got the same in halter horses at the Nationals. PS then gave a bonus in judging for Arabians who actually LOOKED like Arabians. Then we got another promotional group who took advantage of this to breed for heads only and to hell with movement.

Yeah, Lasma was a great help. blink.gif ohmy.gif dry.gif sad.gif
Wendy B
I was a teenager during the Lasma years. I remember the awe back then and I remember the term "bone" which was born to replace the term coarse.

For those who remember with me, do you remember the shock and awe of people who imported those stunning Russian horses? We were paying money to support the "comunists" (please realize if the word is in quotes it is not a direct reflection of my beliefs, but rather a term that surfaced when I was a teenager).

Everyone I knew was hoping to make their money with these wonderful horses. I think to a great degree we all still are because it allows us to play the game. It is Justification.

I love these horses. I have since before I paid my own bills. After which, would amount to the time I turned 16 and I got a full time job and my parents thought, to heck with her hobby it is time for ours. I had a grade mare and they were happy to let me take over all of her care, while funding my own college, etc . . .

Hey, I am still playing on a very small scale and I still love these horses. They are so wonderful whether they are Polish, or Russian or Domestic or Egyptian.
LMG
Is this a question from someone who really wants intormation or the beginning of one of those threads which will end in blood on the wall and body parts on various pages?

But, knowing what I'm getting myself into, I will respond.

I rode against the La Croix kids when they were kids and the handwriting was on the wall at that time, about the etiquette of good sportsmanship in the ring. I was at the Nationals when the daughter's horse threw a shoe and it was weighed and found to be in violation of the rules and she won the class anyway - to the outrage of the spectators.

Trying to ride with young Gene in the ring was akin to a teenage kid driving without a license on a four lane highway. And I was in one class, when some of the old guard, who rode, were discussing how to teach him a lesson in the next class. Needless to say, this was not what I thought I was getting into with Arabians.

The sales were not straight forward, but at the top there was the inside group buying each other's horses one year, and then the high bidder would put their horses in the following year and backs would be scratched. The ones that got hurt were the lambs going in thinking that these were honest vehicles - some people even mortgaging their homes to buy a horse. If you looked at the top of the sales, you would think the horses were gold, but the bottom part of the sales, actually reflected, more closely a high, but closer to actual, value for some of these animals.

If you tell me a story about this group and it sounds a bit like Bonnie and Clyde, I would give it a lot of weight, having been in the show ring here in California and Arizona during that era. Further, as I've said before, there were some in that era that set the bar about as low as it could go and with all the money, whether actual or perceived changing hands at that time, it brought with it some of the worst of the worst -

I had a young woman bring her mare to me to be bred, because one of the bright lights in the new imports had leased a young stallion back from her and she believed that his sire was sterile and that they were still taking stud fees but using her stallion. She was so afraid of these people, I don't know if she ever went back to get her horse.

I reviewed one these LLP's or LLC's with $10,000 per share prospectuses and
the youngest mare was 18 years old (of about five mares) there were a few fillies (not of breeding age) and a whole bunch of colts. The likelihoond any shareholders would see his money back, let alone a return, was as likely as a glacier turning up here on my ranch in Central California.

All the voices raised in warning about the death of the industry, the fraud, the horses that were being abused went unheard, as long as money was changing hands - and those who said something were accused of being bad sports because their horses weren't winning in the ring - a little difficult when there was reliable testimony about money going to assure that horses won, and even Registry unreliablity regarding authentication of imports when these horses were hot, hot, hot.

Pete is absolutely correct - to look back on that period with an idolized eye means that you either weren't a player in the Arabian Industry at that time, or you had your head in the sand, or you didn't give a damn.

I would advise anyone, that bought horses from that era, since there was no way of determining their ancestory - that it definitely was buyer beware - and if you didn't care if the horse was by Dark of Night out of Pasture, as long as it was winning in the show ring and you were going to make a killing selling it to a little match girl or get as many high priced stud fees before you folded your tent and slipped away - it didn't matter.

I would qualify the above paragraph with the fact, that those who had been around pretty much knew who was reputable, and who was questionable, and stayed far away from the Titanic which was the Arabian Horse Industry - with exception of the new best thing being the SE community, which apparently thought, this won't happen to us and we can repeat the same ole, same ole, (but it's time was a-comin' also.)

LMG
flying hooves
QUOTE (Piaff @ Sep 7 2008, 03:15 PM)
Besides: all of these horses would be failing DNA testing these days : my Bask sons were tested 3 times, and I guess that if they could test mine, they also have been able to test the rest of them,

*


This is not true. If the resulting foals were registered as purebred Arabians their DNA would most certainly match that of their decendants. We are talking foals born and registered pre-DNA pre-blood testing.
1rider
IM am glad the 80s thing died and hope it never comes back, now we can get back to breeding real horses. it was still going on in the early 90 but fading, still a little of it with the boggs and brazil going on. When i read the Arabian Horse year books i have 66 to 72 you can still see real horses do real things and real prices for these horses. thts all i want to see. If your horses is that good then you should get good money. but all that fake buying and selling was never any good for the horses. ken
LMG
Horses who were DNA tested after all the musical chairs of the mid-70's to the date that DNA testing began to be a requirement, were the DNA profile for their individual test. That is to say, it had to be assume that they were what they were registered as, and that their ancestors where correctly identified, since these ancestors were not DNA tested and there was no way of retrospectively assuring oneself of the correctness of the ancestoral DNA .

As I understand it, those who have been involved in the mitochonrial DNA studies are now finding that some horses were mis-registered, not as fraud, but from probable error, and those who have these horse recognize that this may be true, but there are no changes in the Registry identification of these horses. These are two known mares, not a whole group of horses from the roaring 70's and 80's.

In that era, we are not talking about human error in registration filing, but out and out knowlegeable misrepresentation of sires of offspring.

LMG
aanuket2001
Wow. Thanks LMG. You affirmed all I had suspected from this era but since I was not involved as a player in "The Industry" back in the 80's, I needed somebody to tell it like it really was. Hopefully, we've learned what happens when greed and ego take over and our horses suffer.

Marie
Piaff
QUOTE (LMG @ Sep 8 2008, 02:41 AM)
Horses who were DNA tested after all the musical chairs of the mid-70's to the date that DNA testing began to be a requirement, were the DNA profile for their individual test.  That is to say, it had to be assume that they were what they were registered as, and that their ancestors where correctly identified, since these ancestors were not DNA tested and there was no way of retrospectively assuring oneself of the correctness of the ancestoral DNA .

As I understand it, those who have been involved in the mitochonrial DNA studies are now finding that some horses were mis-registered, not as fraud, but from probable error, and those who have these horse recognize that this may be true, but there are no changes in the Registry identification of these horses.  These are two known mares, not a whole group of horses from the roaring 70's and 80's.

In that era, we are not talking about human error in registration filing, but out and out knowlegeable misrepresentation of sires of offspring. 

LMG
*


s I understandthere were mis-regisrations in many countries before ( at least there is an artcle about that) so there would be more people guilty of that.

It is not a matter of idealizing, or not being a serious player in the eighties,
it is a matter of being a player ALL of those years, and asking if it isTHAT different now.
Or do you find for example the prices in the Polish sales realistic ?
Can you turn around and sell those horses for the same price ? Are the show horses not being abused ? Do arabians not end up in the feedlot ? Is it not the same group of people winning and buying and scratching eachothers back ?
Do known trainers with a good horse not beat the unkown trainer with the better horse ?

I am not saying Lasma was so good.

I am asking you if it is really all THAT different now, if you really take a good look at it. That' s all.
Pete Hiatt
Can you imagine the outcry if we started requireing performance horses to pass the same type of tests as required for racing in the Middle East? If you don't look and move like an Arabian horse, you get the gate.

WOW! What fun that would be.
Piaff
Mis registrations, by the way: I mean that over a period of a hundred years, I am not talking about the last 9 years, but it would affect a lot of well known horses.
Piaff
QUOTE (Pete Hiatt @ Sep 8 2008, 04:20 AM)
Can you imagine the outcry if we started requireing performance horses to pass the same type of tests as required for racing in the Middle East? If you don't look and move like an Arabian horse, you get the gate.

WOW! What fun that would be.
*


I am sure I do not entirely get that Pete : are you telling me that all the French bred\
arabians get the gate in the middle east because they look nothing like an Arab, and move nothing like an Arab.
Strange I thought I have seen many of those racing there and everywhere , owned by Middle East farms.
Mollie
I just thought of something that could throw a monkey wrench into the works regarding testing. We know mtdna is inherited in direct line from mother to daughter. What if Mom has 2 daughters from 2 different sires. These 2 share the same mtdna because they are out of the same mare. If Daughter A had a foal but this foal was registered as out of Daughter B, and mtdna testing was done, wouldn't either one "pass" as the dam of the foal? There is also a test that can trace in direct mail line, isn't there? So if the son of the sterile stallion mentioned earlier that was used in his place, there wouldn't be any way to tell whose foals are whose?
Mollie
Pete Hiatt
There is a form of paternal DNA testing that simply tests a sire LINE. It cannot tell a sire from a grandsire. Mitochondrial DNA testing tests the dam line and can go far back to an original dam, like the four "Susies" which started human kind 200,000 years ago. It is longer lasting than general DNA and is a separate DNA from our general DNA. You can get it from hair and not just the root ball. General DNA can certainly tell the difference between sire and grandsire by counting certain common alleles. MtDNA could tell if the saddlebreds mares were exchanged with real Arabian mare DNA. But don't hold your breath that this will ever be done. It would create a maelstorm of lawsuits.

By the way, one theory is that we have two separate forms of DNA because all life is a symbiosis. The mitochondria may have been a separate life form originally which formed a new life form when it combined with it. Cool thought, eh?
Mollie
Maybe that's what I am thinking of. I thought maybe the mtdna would have the male counterpart, perhaps not. In humans anyway, they have this paternal testing from son to father on back. Some people have been surprised that their root tail-male is Native American and this is in England. This testing is supposed to find out just what nationality people are in tracing tail-male. But I wonder if this could find out the same thing in horses.

I thought there were six women to whom all humans trace back to in tail female. I know one of them was named Eve. No, not that Eve smile.gif Maybe it has since been condensed further.

Yes, I had read on my.yahoo.com that humans do have viruses that merged with our genes. Really fascinating stuff. Wonder what we would be like if we didn't get that extra "boost" smile.gif
Mollie

QUOTE (Pete Hiatt @ Sep 8 2008, 05:53 PM)
There is a form of paternal DNA testing that simply tests a sire LINE. It cannot tell a sire from a grandsire. Mitochondrial DNA testing tests the dam line and can go far back to an original dam, like the four "Susies" which started human kind 200,000 years ago. It is longer lasting than general DNA and is a separate DNA from our general DNA. You can get it from hair and not just the root ball. General DNA can certainly tell the difference between sire and grandsire by counting certain common alleles. MtDNA could tell if the saddlebreds mares were exchanged with real Arabian mare DNA. But don't hold your breath that this will ever be done. It would create a maelstorm of lawsuits.

By the way, one theory is that we have two separate forms of DNA because all life is a symbiosis. The mitochondria may have been a separate life form originally which formed a new life form when it combined with it. Cool thought, eh?
*
Lysette
I only know of this era first from magazines and now stories since I'm online. But one thing that I get the impression of is that this time period did have was a sense of excitement. Now, it seems as though the excitement may have been over something that wasn't real, but I can't help but believe this was a time when an awful lot of people were awfully excited over Arabian horses. (And wasn't this around the time the Black Stallion movies came out as well?) While I have no desire to see fake auctions and prices with no relationship to reality, I do wish that we as a community could find some of that sense of electricity. I know some of the doom and gloom is from factors outside the industry, and I'm sure some of my unease with the way things are going is due to the fact that I know more about what is going on...
LMG
Mollie:

Probably a bit smarter and with better survival instincts. I've often thought the the viral DNA infection into human nuclear DNA may have caused some cross species contamination - perhaps from sheep or goats.

LMG dry.gif
Daceena
I started going to Arabian shows back in the late 60's, so I was around when the rise of Lasma with *Bask started. Though I was from the Northeast, I did manage to attend a lot of shows and sales throughout the country, and I have to say, I was NOT in awe of the hype and 'excitement' being generated; I found it pretty overwhelming, actually, but I put that down to being young at the time. As I matured and continued going to these events, I realized that so much of it was PHONEY, from the people to the hype to the money. The only real part of it all were the horses, they were caught in the middle and the ones who in the long run were used to feed people's ego.

So many horses wound up on the wrong end of that excitement, it was sad. I don't miss those days at all simply because so much of it was not real and the end result was harmful to the horses as individuals. At the time, I saw the breed change from a very versatile, sweet tempered horse to a hot, specialized horse which was to me NOT representative of what Arabians are all about. JMHO about those times.
Sue in GA
LMG
Hello Sue:

It's hard to believe that there is anyone still around from those years who really knew how nice the Arabians were before the great "enlightenment." Not to get into a diatribe about breeding, but merely to say that many of these lines have gone into the hinterland of oblivion due to the moving fickle finger of fandom, but there were many living in the "tent" horses -

Many didn't evey know that they were supposed to be foaming at the mouth, wild eyed, leaping and rearing show horses - but that got cured didn't it?

LMG
arabrider57
In the 60's and 70's an an all arabian show was held during our state fair in Columbia, South Carolina. Kids and families participated and many times the same horse would show in western, english, and costume plus the fair goers got to see the versatile arabian horse. Then came the Lasma influence. Stall fees, drug fees, ground fees, ridicuous class prices. It became too expensive for the small breeder and owner to participate. Suddenly the Arabian horse turned into a rich mans toy and now even though Lasma is long gone, their influence still resonates in the perception that only the wealthy can own Arabian horses.

I don't have a problem with wealthy owners having Arabians, but AHA has made it pretty clear that little guys like me have no place in the horse show world. I've not gone to an Arab show in at least 10 years. The last one I watched was in Raleigh, North Carolina and it was pretty sad. A certain big haired trainer was the judge and his choices were down right laughable.

We've since gone into endurance and it brings back some of the old days of families, everybody having a good time and just enjoying their horses and it proves that Arabians are the toughest and most versatile horse on the planet, not something to stand in a stall 24-7 and look pretty.

Marie
Daceena
QUOTE (LMG @ Sep 9 2008, 02:20 AM)
Hello Sue:

It's hard to believe that there is anyone still around from those years who really knew how nice the Arabians were before the great "enlightenment."  Not to get into a diatribe about breeding, but merely to say that many of these lines have gone into the hinterland of oblivion due to the moving fickle finger of fandom, but there were many living in the "tent" horses - 

Many didn't evey know that they were supposed to be foaming at the mouth, wild eyed, leaping and rearing show horses - but that got cured didn't it?

LMG
*


Ah yes, I guess I have dated myself considerably, haven't I? tongue.gif But yes I remember very well the family-type Arabian at Class A horse shows which could go from a sweet, compliant leadline horse to a firey EP mount in one fell swoop. I grew up with those sort of Arabians and to me that's what I desire with any horse that I own.

I believe there's a type of Arabian for everyone and perhaps that's the way it should be but NOT at the exclusion of the firm roots of the breed, itself.
Sue in GA
LMG
Marie:

That was my experience. My halter, western, english pleasure, driving, costume, side saddle, trail horse stallion, spent a lot of his show experiences tied to the side of the trailer, between classes, while people came around and petted him.

The other horses (cow, reining, etc.) were used to let amateur's ride and for everyone to go on trail rides (usually with the goat) - Then, as you say, came Lasma - they are long gone and I understand that Gene is now a TB trainer in Kentucky, but there are way too many people who think that this was the only way Arabians were ever shown or used.

LMG
Daceena
QUOTE (LMG @ Sep 9 2008, 04:06 PM)
Lasma - they are long gone and I understand that Gene is now a TB trainer in Kentucky, but there are way too many people who think that this was the only way Arabians were ever shown or used.

LMG
*


Are you serious about Gene being a TB trainer? Omigosh! I thought he was big into the DHH? Guess I'm just not keeping up.
Sue in GA
arabrider57
Gene L. a TB trainer?
Oh lord , is it possible to make a TB look like a saddlebred?
I guess we can look forward to park horse races.
Marie
Daceena
QUOTE (arabrider57 @ Sep 9 2008, 04:26 PM)
Gene L. a TB trainer?
Oh lord , is it possible to make a TB look like a saddlebred?
I guess we can look forward to park horse races.
Marie
*


biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
And jockeys riding on the horse's kidneys.
Fortunately I don't Gene is making a huge impact on the TB racing world at this stage of the game. I did a little research ph34r.gif
Pete Hiatt
The advantage of some viruses combining with nuclear DNA is that we are less susceptible to those diseases. That is the reason why Europeans were less susceptible to many of these diseases than native Americans whom they devastated.
arabrider57
I found this editorial in the June 1981 Arabian Horse World magazine on page 40 if you still have the issue. (Yes, I never throw anything away!)

The Arabian Avalanche
By Gene Lacroix

What's happening in the Arabian industry? It's snowballing. The prices paid for Arabian horses in Scottsdale this year were phenominal. Mares, eighteen years and twenty years old, real collectors items, sold for $200,000 and more; horses exibiting National Top Ten potential sold consistently for more than $100,000; young mares of superior pedigree, conformation, and/or show ring potenital generated a blizzard of bidding competition - i.e., CELLADIN for $880,000, MISS COGNAC for $600,000, FYRE LOVE for $500,000 and MS BATISTA for $400,000.

Are these buyers going crazy? How can they afford to pay such astronomical prices?

In order to understand their thinking, it is necessary to consider an important investment concept - the concept of initial investment grows in value after the purchase of an outstanding product.

A Rolex watch for example. The same Rolex you are wearing now will cost much more in the future. However, because of its excellent construction, the watch you have now will also be worth more than you paid for it eventually.

The Mercedes Benz also can be viewed as an illustration of the appreciation concept. It may seem ridiculous to to pay $50,000 for a car. However, a Mercedes Benz may well appreciate in value, or at worst, if you maintain it properly, it will at least hold its own. Another car purchased for perhaps $25,000 will depreciate as much as 50% in three years, regardless of how well you maintain it.

The buyers of high-priced Arabian horses apply the same logic to their investment. They realize that it is wiser economically to spend more money on a high quality horse which will appreciate, than to purchase one of lower quality which will eat as much and lose value.

Why, on the other hand, purchase Arabians at all? What motiviates purchasers of Arabian horses? What is their allure?

Let's go back a few years and take a look at the rapid evolution of the Arab horse industry in this country. Compared to other breeds, the Arab is unique because of its beauty, its senstiivity, and its versatality. Because this horse is unique and relatively limited, it attracted for the most part, a certain "class" of people. These people, proud of their Arabians, needed to display them to others. Thus the Arabian Horse Show was born.

Americans are competitive people., More shows appeared, containing more classes, and of course, blue ribbons for the winners. It follows as the night, the day. Americans don't like to lose. Therefore, they began to dedicate themselves to doing better jobs of purchsing, breeding, training and showing. There are few things in life more gratifying than seeing one's own Arab horse in the winner's circle or breeding an ideal mare or stallion., Thisi is perhaps the strongest motivating force at auctions. When that speciial horse appears on the auction stage, a prospective buyer feels he has a chance to accomplish his dream.

However, in my opinon, there is one primary element that propels the quality Arabian higher and higher in price and provides enduring appreciation: it accounts for my confidence that the $500,000 "Plus" individual is indeed affordable. The Arab industry of high quality horses is like a snowball rolling down a snowy hill. It was very little when it started, then as it rolled, it got larger and larger and started rolling faster and faster.

As this industry rolls, it also gets larger with each turn, more new people are added to it. The law of supply and demand pushes the prices higher. As higher prices are witnessed, significantly higher returns on investments are realized. More people with dreams and confidence are picked up during each rotation, adding momentum with their competitive spirit. They may pay the "big" price when they join the snowball, but the next revolution will be their turn to have a free ride. More people, sorry they didn't hop on before, will be waiting - eager to pay even higher prices than before. The continuing process of enthusiasm, competition and momentum leads to confident investment and significant appreciation.


(I thought it clever he used the snowball image, now 26 years later, we have snowballed: completely off the cliff)

Marie
kay cochran
LMG, You know John Rogers warned us about the Lasma bunch way back when we were first into Arabs. He told us not to get involved with that scam. He expressed fear about what would happen to the Arab market even back in early 80's late 70's. He was right. I am so glad he is not around to see what has happened. There aren't many breeders that can even walk in their shadow(Old time breeders)now much less come close to being ethical and honest. That is what will kill off what is left of our Arabs. K
Ladypurr
Forum Friends,

I'm sure many of you "distinguished older afcionados" are intimately familiar with the shenanigans of the '80's.

For those who'd like to enlighten themselves, you might look for a series of books by Cali Canberra. The first in the series is called "Trading Paper." It's fictional but it won't take you long to begin to attach certain players of the 80's to the fictional characters of the book.

Many of those Scottsdale sales were simply "smoke and mirrors" and the big losers were, naturally, THE HORSES!

Is the upper echelon of the Arabian horse world more ethical and trustworthy today? If you answer "yes" to that question, you obviously aren't too familiar with human nature.

A horse is only worth as much as a buyer is willing to pay for him or her. That's the bottom line.

Ask yourself if you had "unlimited" income would you really pay $1 million for a horse, knowing that even before he set foot in your barn, he could suffer a catastrophic injury, or die suddenly of an blood clot or heart attack?

The human ego and desire for "more" is a double-edged sword. It can work for you and against you.

If anyone doubts the less than honorable dealings with players like the subject mentioned here, do some research about the mare Love Potion and Jim Morressey. You'll get a quick lesson. Montebello Farms also comes to mind.
Both the owners left the country to avoid tax fraud according to news reports after that debacle.

With promotion and hype like what abounded in the 80's, it won't be long before the Arabian breed disappears from the landscape.

--Susan T sad.gif
2mntn
QUOTE (arabrider57 @ Sep 9 2008, 06:51 PM)
I found this editorial in the June 1981 Arabian Horse World magazine on page 40 if you still have the issue. (Yes, I never throw anything away!)

The Arabian Avalanche
By Gene Lacroix

What's happening in the Arabian industry? It's snowballing. The prices paid for Arabian horses in Scottsdale this year were phenominal. Mares, eighteen years and twenty years old, real collectors items, sold for $200,000 and more; horses exibiting National Top Ten potential sold consistently for more than $100,000; young mares of superior pedigree, conformation, and/or show ring potenital generated a blizzard of bidding competition - i.e., CELLADIN for $880,000, MISS COGNAC for $600,000, FYRE LOVE for $500,000 and MS BATISTA for $400,000.

Are these buyers going crazy? How can they afford to pay such astronomical prices?

In order to understand their thinking, it is necessary to consider an important investment concept - the concept of initial investment grows in value after the purchase of an outstanding product.

A Rolex watch for example. The same Rolex you are wearing now will cost much more in the future. However, because of its excellent construction, the watch you have now will also be worth more than you paid for it eventually.

The Mercedes Benz also can be viewed as an illustration of the appreciation concept. It may seem ridiculous to to pay $50,000 for a car. However, a Mercedes Benz may well appreciate in value, or at worst, if you maintain it properly, it will at least hold its own. Another  car purchased  for perhaps $25,000 will depreciate as much as 50% in three years, regardless of how well you maintain it.

The buyers of high-priced Arabian horses apply the same logic to their investment. They realize that it is wiser economically to  spend more money on a high quality horse which will appreciate, than to purchase one of lower quality which will eat as much and lose value.

Why, on the other hand, purchase Arabians at all? What motiviates purchasers of Arabian horses? What is their allure?

Let's go back a few years and take a look at the rapid evolution of the Arab horse industry in this country. Compared to other breeds, the Arab is unique because of its beauty, its senstiivity, and its versatality. Because this horse is unique and relatively limited, it attracted for the most part, a certain "class" of people. These people, proud of their Arabians, needed to display them to others. Thus the Arabian Horse Show was born.

Americans are competitive people., More shows appeared, containing more classes, and of course, blue ribbons for the winners. It follows as the night, the day. Americans don't like to lose. Therefore, they began to dedicate themselves to doing better jobs of purchsing, breeding, training and showing. There are few things in life more gratifying than seeing one's own Arab horse in the winner's circle or breeding an ideal mare or stallion., Thisi is perhaps the strongest motivating force at auctions. When that speciial horse appears on the auction stage, a prospective buyer feels he has a chance to accomplish his dream.

However, in my opinon, there is one primary element that propels the quality Arabian higher and higher in price and provides enduring appreciation: it accounts for my confidence that the $500,000 "Plus" individual is indeed affordable. The Arab industry of high quality horses is like a snowball rolling down a snowy hill. It was very little when it started, then as it rolled, it got larger and larger and started rolling faster and faster.

As this industry rolls, it also gets larger with each turn, more new people are added to it. The law of supply and demand pushes the prices higher. As higher prices are witnessed, significantly higher returns on investments are realized. More people with dreams and confidence are picked up during each rotation, adding momentum with their competitive spirit. They may pay the "big" price when they join the snowball, but the next revolution will be their turn to have a free ride. More people, sorry they didn't hop on before, will be waiting - eager to pay even higher prices than before. The continuing process of enthusiasm, competition and momentum leads to confident investment and significant appreciation.
(I thought it clever he used the snowball image, now 26 years later, we have snowballed: completely off the cliff)

Marie
*


Good Lord have mercy - money, money, money! This feller must have thought that his audience is dumber than a stump, and that they can each find a half-million dollars for a horse. Yes, you can be a ROCK STAR!!
arabrider57
What was the story behind Love Potion? I heard many rumors and stories. Didn't her owner sue Lasma or something. I can' remember.

And what was Montebello farm?

Marie
Ladypurr
A little background on Montebello from this website:

http://www.straightegyptians.com/forum2/lo...php/t14520.html

Years ago I found and copied a lengthy and eye-popping article from a finance journal about the scam that Paul Walker and Edwards had going with respect to Montebello and Straight Egyptian horses. I've tried to find it on the internet, but no luck. You simply had to read it to see what was going on there.

Get the book Trading Paper. It will all make sense to you. And yes! Paul (not Jim) Morissey sued Lasma but my memory is faint regarding the details.


--Susan
Lysette
Wow, I can't quite believe that last paragraph on the Lacroix editorial. I mean, I understand that is what was happening and how the business was being run, but I didn't realize everyone was that up front about it! I know in retrospect everyone can see how the prices were a disaster waiting to happen, but it looks like even in the midst of it all they were pointing to a model that could not be sustained. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, my econ classes were my least favorite of all and I'm a few years away from them wink.gif

Were the Lacroixs the ones who were planning L'Esprit? (I think that's what the proposed community of farms was called...) While I know things like that rarely work, I still think it would be a lot of fun to live in a community with several people who love the same breed. I'm so envious of all you on here who live in the same state and get to visit at shows throughout the year! (Of course, seeing how hot things on the forums can get, perhaps it's all for the best we live some distance apart laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Ladypurr
Marie,

Thanks for sharing that. I don't have that issue here at the moment. It's at my mom's home in Pennsylvania.

First it was Dutch Harness horses, now Thoroughbreds?

By the way...does anyone know if Renai, the registry of Dutch Harness Horses here in the states, is still in existence? Here's the link to their website but the most up-to-date info covers only 2007. Interesting!

http://www.renaihorseregistry.com/whatsnew.html

I'm sure someone here will know.


--Susan T
2mntn
QUOTE (Lysette @ Sep 9 2008, 09:34 PM)
Wow, I can't quite believe that last paragraph on the Lacroix editorial.  I mean, I understand that is what was happening and how the business was being run, but I didn't realize everyone was that up front about it!  I know in retrospect everyone can see how the prices were a disaster waiting to happen, but it looks like even in the midst of it all they were pointing to a model that could not be sustained.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong, my econ classes were my least favorite of all and I'm a few years away from them wink.gif
*


Yes, it's called The Pyramid Scheme. ph34r.gif
Ladypurr
Correction to my post to Marie.

The thanks for the editorial letter from Gene LaCroix goes to Ray for posting it.

Ray, maybe you can enlighten Marie about Montebello, too.

--Susan T
LMG
I always thought that was a bit awkward name for an organization.

LMG
Ladypurr
Awkward sounding name, yes, but what actually happened to the Registry itself? If I was a breeder and investor in Dutch harness horses, I'd be livid if everything just collapsed and my money went down the drain. So no one may be updating the website, but is there an office and are there people actually responsible for this registry?

I shudder to think that it could happen to AHA.

--Susan T sad.gif
Ladypurr
Awkward sounding name, yes, but what actually happened to the Registry itself? If I was a breeder and investor in Dutch harness horses, I'd be livid if everything just collapsed and my money went down the drain. So no one may be updating the website, but is there an office and are there people actually responsible for this registry?

I shudder to think that it could happen to AHA.

Still more info about Renai. By the way, guess who started this registry?

http://forums.ablackhorse.com/index.php?showtopic=5565


--Susan T sad.gif
mckulley1
The fate of NH Love Potion is very very sad.

Yes, she is the highest selling mare at public auction.

But her buyers were never able to pay the full price and they ended up in foreclosure. She was sold and resold and resold over time. She suffered innumerable colic surgeries. Owners were told to stop breeding her. From what I've read/been told she lived in filth towards the end and was bred when she was not supposed to be - which ultimately ended her life.
Ladypurr
QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Sep 9 2008, 09:09 PM)
The fate of NH Love Potion is very very sad.

Yes, she is the highest selling mare at public auction.

But her buyers were never able to pay the full price and they ended up in foreclosure. She was sold and resold and resold over time. She suffered innumerable colic surgeries. Owners were told to stop breeding her. From what I've read/been told she lived in filth towards the end and was bred when she was not supposed to be - which ultimately ended her life.
*


How sad. Just one more example of the consequences of greed.
When the stakes are high and people can't deliver, guess who pays the price?

May that beautiful mare be forever deep in clover in Heaven, never to be exploited again. Justice may not have been served here, but those responsible for her misery will stand and be held accountable one day.

--Susan T sad.gif
arabrider57
NH Love Potion was a gorgeous mare who deserved a much better end. She was a national champion, what more could a horse do to deserve a good ending to their life. She is just one example of many who fell through the cracks.

Marie
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