Sep 18 2008, 08:29 PM
Some things to ponder!
If you answered "other", please post details here.
Sep 18 2008, 08:37 PM
O my God Beth, I hope this does not put ideas in our people's heads.
Already we have such breeding problems, genetic problems, many through AI which I DESTEST knowing better, as I also do not like Embreo Transplant. That's so totally against nature and spells TROUBLE.
Why cant people just look at nature, learn from it and pursue it. If the Bedus would have done what is done now, none of us would have a sound horse in the barn. It is almost sacriligeous! Bedus bred horses to survive, produced the best examplares, many got imported to nations, and now just look what has been done.
Obviously highly promoted stallions cant trot around the block, cant move, otherwise these breeders would be proud to show their stallions as to what they can do, other than star gazing..It is so sad, so very sad.
Srenity Arabian Farms
Sep 18 2008, 08:49 PM
Whether we like or agree with it or not, cloning is here. The number of cloned horses continues to increase and some of those clones are now reproducing themselves. There is one Arabian who has already been cloned (Pieraz) and the grapevine has it that at least 2 more Arabians have been cloned, although no formal announcement has been made.
It is becoming a real issue and the registries are going to have to deal with it. Either setting and maintaining a firm policy against clones being registered (and really sticking with it) or allowing clones to be registered....and then let the chips fall where they may.
As cloning becomes more of an issue in the Arabian horse world, the debates will grow. I'm not particularly a fan of cloning, but the issue has reached the REAL stage now. So, perhaps best to start airing some of those arguments now.
The first one being....the benefits of having outstanding performance horses, who were gelded early and have no offspring...giving those horses the ability to pass on their genetic material, in hopes of siring/producing more successful performance horses and in turn, improving the breed. Is that a good enough reason to allow the registration of clones?
On the flip side....what is the benefit of "re-using DNA" (for lack of a better term). If a stallion or mare has offpspring (and especially if quite a few), presumably if they are a good breeding horse, they have offspring consistently as good or better than they are. Why not use the next generation?
Sep 18 2008, 10:51 PM
Has it been proven that a cloned horse enherites everything from the one it is cloned from? I dont know. All I know that that cloned sheep became unhealthy very young. Do you know what the consequences might be? Will there only be a look alike, or will there be a duplicate? I have seen on the RFD program one totally deformed calf.
Can you just see some of the garden ornaments cloned? Would we not get deeper and deeper into trouble? Already some experts call those misfits, useless,taking away from others superior.
Look at the plants,.trees, flowers and was done to them. Problem is the scent is lost with some, and they dont last or live long. At least the onces we bought.
I have yet to see that anything intefered with nature did well in the long run.
And what about the registry. Can you just see more than one being cloned from one donator? It frightens me. May be I am too old fashion, seen to much.
Serenity Arabian Farms
Sep 18 2008, 11:13 PM
Good Golly!!!!! What happened to yhe old fashioned way !!!! K
Nancy Bourque/Ibriz Arabians
Sep 19 2008, 12:10 AM
I can just see how this will go. People will just clone the horse they want and no one will be breeding a unique horse any more. Why bother to plan a breeding when you can't be sure what you will get. Just clone something you already like. Order up what you want, just like going to the car dealer and ordering a new car. Where's the fun in that?
Sep 19 2008, 12:17 AM
I'm not sure how to answer this poll yet.
On one hand, I don't agree with cloning for any reason whatsoever. One lives and dies as the Fates determine...thus lines coming and going from our gene pools for strength and hybrid vigor which ultimately stimulates the species.
On the other hand, saying NO WAY to clones just means that those that ARE produced will hide in dark corners, breeding into the population and no one would ever know.
So I would RATHER know instead of NOT know! And if I am to know, then that would mean that it would have to be condoned and allowed into the the registry.
Sep 19 2008, 12:41 AM
I think WAHO would kick us back to the curb it they allowed clones to be registered in AHA.
Sep 19 2008, 01:49 AM
It's not only the AHA that is going to have to have it's rules set, but every registry in the world.
And the worst part.. we would never know if a clone were used because the DNA is exactly the same as the "donor" horse.
Royal Blue Boon has a clone, and that clone could be bred to a stallion, and DNA would confirm that Royal Blue Boon is the dam, not clone.
I don't want to see it happen, but as McKulley pointed out, I'd rather have them registered, and know if a foal is the offspring of said mare and stallion, then buy a foal that was, but it's been hidden.
Sep 19 2008, 01:58 AM
The whole thought of this excites me on a scientific level, yet morally I feel the opposite.
Then you think of all of the great horses that have been lost. How about some of those old treasured bloodlines that we often lament about losing? With our very tightly knit genepool, some of that old blood would very well be appreciated. It brings the idea of preservation breeding to a whole new level.
By the way........I voted no.
Sep 19 2008, 02:22 AM
It's going to be a long time before this procedure is going to be affordable to make it practical. For now it's going to be very publisiized because the labs that complete it are going to make sure everyone knows and it still newsworthy. Besides they don't know how to reproduce the full chromosomal bodies from the female's ' chromosomes. ( McKulley step in here and name the little suckers.) K
Sep 19 2008, 09:04 AM
Just because something CAN be done, does not mean it SHOULD be done. The companies offering this are excellent salesmen, they have a lot of money invested and want a return.
Apart from the thics, there are serious welfare issues involved - for every successful clone born alive, there are many that do not go to full term, also how many are born deformed or do not survive beyond a few days?
At the last two WAHO Conferences, 2004 & 2007, the voting delegates from the member registries voted unanimously that the registration of cloned Arabians and the offspring of cloned Arabians by any WAHO member registry is forbidden.
Sep 19 2008, 09:55 AM
Good morning all
I always had hoped that the AHA and other registries show on the certificate that a horse was either bred by natural cover, AI or cloned, whatever.
That would be an excellent guideline to those who believe in natural breeding and nature or are trying to figure out were certain problems, if any, came from..
It will be difficult for our future researchers to determine how for instance a foal born in Germany, the sire sitting in the USA , came about.
Serenity Arabian Farms
Sep 19 2008, 11:22 AM
This is whats happening in Europe concerning cloned animals in the food chain.
Washington Post article
Sep 19 2008, 03:50 PM
I voted no.
Apart from the possible unforseen health issues that may arise from cloned animals, I think this sort of thing will only serve to reduce genetic diversity and reduce the rarity and therefore value of any cloned horse and his or her family.
We are already seeing ET being, in my opinion, abused... what was orignally intended to help old mares who cannot carry a pregnacy breed on, or allowing top performance mares to breed on while having a career, has now turned into a puppy mill type situation with young healthy mares... mares who's foals should be exclusive and special but are going to be very common and so-so.
From my point of view as a small breeder... if I bred a "once in a lifetime" horse, sold it, then the new owner cloned it and merrily sold 10 cloned or ET embryos for $50K a pop before the buyer even knows if they have 4 legs and a head, I would be both sad and mad... sad because the fun has been taken out of it, mad because the value of my own breeding programme would be reduced (who would bother to wait for or buy an unproven sibling if they could just buy a well-marketed clone of the earlier one?).
Amanda has a point about people going under cover if it's banned, but to be honest I think those sorts of people are always going to cheat the system, and at least if it is made as difficult as possible there will be less likelihood of it happening at all.
Has anybody here read Stephen King's "Pet Cemetary"? The story could be applied here.
Sep 19 2008, 04:39 PM
l agree just because something can be done...dosen't make it should be done
l would like a lot more information on the whole thing before l will coment..
l do however think whatever we all think and say someone somewhere with enough money will get it done..
is this the right way forward for the arabian horse? probally not...but who listens to us....if it big bucks time we get shoved aside....
just my opinion
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