But as a riding person he longs to have horses which are suitable for the work under saddle and that doesn't mean they must have pretty faces but sound legs. Many breeders of SE horses in Germany are not dealing with leg faults and the secretary of the German Arab Horse Society Klaus Beste emphasized exactly this in the last issue of the German magazine "Araber Journal". He wrote about his concern gegarding leg faults and movement, especially the walk which is so important foe a horse. many stallions that showed up at the annual stallion show had serious leg faults but beautiful faces. This is more than just a trend, this is a sad reality. What can be done to school the breeders and not-breders like me to learn what serious leg faults are or which faults can be tolerated? I would like to learn this because the notes for legs at our shows are always the same (13 14 13 15) and the judge sare not in need to explain why the are giving that notes.
Full Version: Functional conformation
I just read Oliver's article again and can underline every single word. The best artcile written about SE horses in a long time. This crossed my mind when I read Tim's remarks about the Al Rayyan horses in the ANSATA NILE PASHA welcome-thread. He said that can accept all breeding programs and has respect for their various goals and this is a nice way to begin a discussion. But as a riding person he longs to have horses which are suitable for the work under saddle and that doesn't mean they must have pretty faces but sound legs. Many breeders of SE horses in Germany are not dealing with leg faults and the secretary of the German Arab Horse Society Klaus Beste emphasized exactly this in the last issue of the German magazine "Araber Journal". He wrote about his concern gegarding leg faults and movement, especially the walk which is so important foe a horse. many stallions that showed up at the annual stallion show had serious leg faults but beautiful faces. This is more than just a trend, this is a sad reality. What can be done to school the breeders and not-breders like me to learn what serious leg faults are or which faults can be tolerated? I would like to learn this because the notes for legs at our shows are always the same (13 14 13 15) and the judge sare not in need to explain why the are giving that notes.
But as a riding person he longs to have horses which are suitable for the work under saddle and that doesn't mean they must have pretty faces but sound legs. Many breeders of SE horses in Germany are not dealing with leg faults and the secretary of the German Arab Horse Society Klaus Beste emphasized exactly this in the last issue of the German magazine "Araber Journal". He wrote about his concern gegarding leg faults and movement, especially the walk which is so important foe a horse. many stallions that showed up at the annual stallion show had serious leg faults but beautiful faces. This is more than just a trend, this is a sad reality. What can be done to school the breeders and not-breders like me to learn what serious leg faults are or which faults can be tolerated? I would like to learn this because the notes for legs at our shows are always the same (13 14 13 15) and the judge sare not in need to explain why the are giving that notes.
QUOTE (Babs @ Jan 22 2004, 12:29 PM)
...doesn't mean they must have pretty faces but sound legs.
Many breeders... ...are not dealing with leg faults... ...Klaus Beste emphasized... ...concern gegarding leg faults and movement, especially the walk which is so important foe a horse.
...What can be done to school the breeders and not-breders like me to learn what serious leg faults are or which faults can be tolerated?
Many breeders... ...are not dealing with leg faults... ...Klaus Beste emphasized... ...concern gegarding leg faults and movement, especially the walk which is so important foe a horse.
...What can be done to school the breeders and not-breders like me to learn what serious leg faults are or which faults can be tolerated?
My thoughts - basically to start with leave the notion of "faults" out of your mind when first looking at an equine. More so, look, analyse and understand its conformation. Too many people go looking for faults. They are not looking at the equine and seeing what positive values they have > what their balance is and how it is achieved ie how many compensatory values there are.
You mention leg faults - what part of the legs do you look at? Do you look at the body and how the legs come from the body? If this is done, then the "faults" will probably scream at you. Though if you want to understand Nature and the ill-conceived notions of humankind's perfection, these will suggest why the individual's body has made compensations? Understanding conformation is what makes a good rider and a good breeder. Picking faults does neither.
Do you look at the body and think can this body sustain the type of movement the legs are potentially capable of delivering? What is the overall balance like? Lots of interesting questions can be generated. However, the need for you (and others) is to open your mind(s) and be prepared to learn - accept or at least mull over rather than rejecting if the theory goes past what is commonly accepted as "the truth". Change needs to start somewhere, that somewhere is in the open-mind of the student who's prepared to reason and understand Nature.
Its a learning process - there are a few very good, up-to-date books, videos, courses available. Though please, look at equus as equus - the result of Nature rather than seeking perfection as required by humankind! Understand equus first.
QUOTE
However, the need for you (and others) is to open your mind(s) and be prepared to learn - accept or at least mull over rather than rejecting if the theory goes past what is commonly accepted as "the truth". Change needs to start somewhere, that somewhere is in the open-mind of the student who's prepared to reason and understand Nature.
Yes, I am willing to learn and want to understand WHY this legs can sustain the stress of a long-distance ride and others not. And why some legs are better than others. But it's hard to get acquainted with someone who has the shills to evaluare a horse's conformation and is willing to share this thoughts with you. Not many breeders are willing or capable to explain the highs and lows of their own horses. Do you have a book which you would like to recommend?
Ok, Babs, next time you go to an endurance ride, watch carefully how the horses carry themselves.
A horse which is naturally unbalanced may be very heavy on the forehand, so its legs will be under a lot more stress than say one that can naturally carry more weight on its hindlegs and thus by moving naturally in better balance, is able to stay sound in front even if it has the same leg 'faults' as the heavy forehand horse.
Look at the way your horses travel around the paddock (and friends horses), do some lift their backs better than others, which ones naturally drop their backs and just carry around with high head, high tail and a low back? Whereas another may have a high tail and naturally arched neck, but it may move in a way that allows it to lift its forehand off the ground and power around.
Is the horse an economical mover or does it labour along? A lot of performance people know stuff all about conformation, but they analyse the horse in motion, they'll tell you that they prefer one horse over another 'because it gets off the ground'.
Some methods of moving are more economical for movement than others. The economical movers put less stress on their joints in your specific discipline, and this is often why two horses may both have dreadful front legs, but one stays sound into old age and another breaks down pretty quickly.
A friend of mine who breeds SE's made the comment that we should be breeding arabians that are both pretty AND sound. You can have a well conformed horse that is beautiful, just don't compromise. Anyone can own a statue, but its not a horse unless its in MOTION.
A horse which is naturally unbalanced may be very heavy on the forehand, so its legs will be under a lot more stress than say one that can naturally carry more weight on its hindlegs and thus by moving naturally in better balance, is able to stay sound in front even if it has the same leg 'faults' as the heavy forehand horse.
Look at the way your horses travel around the paddock (and friends horses), do some lift their backs better than others, which ones naturally drop their backs and just carry around with high head, high tail and a low back? Whereas another may have a high tail and naturally arched neck, but it may move in a way that allows it to lift its forehand off the ground and power around.
Is the horse an economical mover or does it labour along? A lot of performance people know stuff all about conformation, but they analyse the horse in motion, they'll tell you that they prefer one horse over another 'because it gets off the ground'.
Some methods of moving are more economical for movement than others. The economical movers put less stress on their joints in your specific discipline, and this is often why two horses may both have dreadful front legs, but one stays sound into old age and another breaks down pretty quickly.
A friend of mine who breeds SE's made the comment that we should be breeding arabians that are both pretty AND sound. You can have a well conformed horse that is beautiful, just don't compromise. Anyone can own a statue, but its not a horse unless its in MOTION.
a PICTURE of Crusader
more snaps of Crusader - oops, no have to reduce the size first.
Why is Crusader such a lonely figure in straight Egyptian stallions, having a performance record (a racing one), when almost EVERY Polish or Russian stallion of note has one ? No wonder they are not taken seriously as performance or riding horses. Testing horses is good, even if that means that some of them fail - at least you know where the weaknesses lie, and can tackle them.
Why is Crusader such a lonely figure in straight Egyptian stallions, having a performance record (a racing one), when almost EVERY Polish or Russian stallion of note has one ? No wonder they are not taken seriously as performance or riding horses. Testing horses is good, even if that means that some of them fail - at least you know where the weaknesses lie, and can tackle them.
QUOTE
Why is Crusader such a lonely figure in straight Egyptian stallions, having a performance record (a racing one), when almost EVERY Polish or Russian stallion of note has one ? No wonder they are not taken seriously as performance or riding horses.
That was my point. So many owners of straight Egyptian stallions talk about battles in the desert and the tradition of the Arabian war horse but - ooooops, sorry - we don't have a saddle at the moment...
Here is something that I have just written purely on conformation—not type, as a handout for an Arabian Sport Horse lecture. In my opinion SE breeders need to geld more colts and shout about the successful performance geldings, because that is what a gelding has to be. They should be able to successfully confirm the riding ability of a breeding program.
CONFORMATION OF THE SPORT HORSE
BALANCE - Viewed from the side the Sport Horse should have a basic uphill balance. He should be able to be divided into equal thirds, with vertical lines drawn through the highest point of the wither and through the flank. A front end that appears larger or heavier than the hind end or the appearance of downhill balance, is likely to have difficulty elevating the forehand, essential in both dressage and jumping.
SHOULDER- This ideally should be a 45 deg. slope from the highest point of the wither to the point of the shoulder. An upright shoulder apart from lacking shock absorption, indicates a tendency to put too much weight on the forehand, whereas a greater degree of angle allows for more freedom of movement. The humerus that attaches to the shoulder, should be long to allow plenty of room for attachment of the strong triceps muscles that extend the elbow joint. It should be possible to slip your hand in between the elbow joint and the chest. Being tied in at the elbow accounts for many poor movers.
WITHERS- Flat or mutton withers can affect the balance of the horse by their role in correct saddle placement, causing the saddle to slide too far forward, placing the rider’s weight too much on the forehand.
NECK- The topline of the neck from poll to the withers should be twice the length of the underline from the throat to the chest. A low set or a neck that comes flat out of the withers makes it harder for the horse to lift his front end. There should be a large windpipe, and it should be possible to place a fist width between the cheek bones. This is to ensure that sufficient oxygen can be taken in. The throat latch should also be clean cut.
HEAD- Large well set eyes with a good width between. The nostrils should be fine skinned and large in order to extend sufficiently.
BODY- The back should be fairly short and strong, showing no sign of weak loins, and with a good spring of ribs and depth in the heart girth.
HINDQUARTERS- As this is the engine of the horse, a long flat ilium (hip) provides the attachment needed for the large muscles that rotate the pelvis and provide power. There should also be a long sloping femur to enable the horse to engage his hind legs. There should be length from the point of hip to the point of the hock, and from the point of the hip to the point of the buttock. The croup should be slightly rounded, as a totally flat croup tends to be less functional.
FRONT LEGS- The forearm should be long and well muscled. The cannon bones should be short and strong, coming directly under the knee. The pasterns should be neither too steep or too long. Calf knees, long, off set cannons and steep pasterns are serious faults penalized in Sport Horse in hand classes. Hooves should be of a good size, wide, uniform, correctly angled and free from clubbed feet—another serious and unfortunately all too common fault.
HIND LEGS- The gaskins should be long and well muscled. The hocks should be well let down and neither too straight nor overbent.
THE WALK- This should be free, swinging and ground covering with a good overstride of at least 6 inches.
THE TROT- This should show a good length of stride, with well engaged hocks, freedom in the shoulder and elbow, and the ability to extend.
Liz Salmon
CONFORMATION OF THE SPORT HORSE
BALANCE - Viewed from the side the Sport Horse should have a basic uphill balance. He should be able to be divided into equal thirds, with vertical lines drawn through the highest point of the wither and through the flank. A front end that appears larger or heavier than the hind end or the appearance of downhill balance, is likely to have difficulty elevating the forehand, essential in both dressage and jumping.
SHOULDER- This ideally should be a 45 deg. slope from the highest point of the wither to the point of the shoulder. An upright shoulder apart from lacking shock absorption, indicates a tendency to put too much weight on the forehand, whereas a greater degree of angle allows for more freedom of movement. The humerus that attaches to the shoulder, should be long to allow plenty of room for attachment of the strong triceps muscles that extend the elbow joint. It should be possible to slip your hand in between the elbow joint and the chest. Being tied in at the elbow accounts for many poor movers.
WITHERS- Flat or mutton withers can affect the balance of the horse by their role in correct saddle placement, causing the saddle to slide too far forward, placing the rider’s weight too much on the forehand.
NECK- The topline of the neck from poll to the withers should be twice the length of the underline from the throat to the chest. A low set or a neck that comes flat out of the withers makes it harder for the horse to lift his front end. There should be a large windpipe, and it should be possible to place a fist width between the cheek bones. This is to ensure that sufficient oxygen can be taken in. The throat latch should also be clean cut.
HEAD- Large well set eyes with a good width between. The nostrils should be fine skinned and large in order to extend sufficiently.
BODY- The back should be fairly short and strong, showing no sign of weak loins, and with a good spring of ribs and depth in the heart girth.
HINDQUARTERS- As this is the engine of the horse, a long flat ilium (hip) provides the attachment needed for the large muscles that rotate the pelvis and provide power. There should also be a long sloping femur to enable the horse to engage his hind legs. There should be length from the point of hip to the point of the hock, and from the point of the hip to the point of the buttock. The croup should be slightly rounded, as a totally flat croup tends to be less functional.
FRONT LEGS- The forearm should be long and well muscled. The cannon bones should be short and strong, coming directly under the knee. The pasterns should be neither too steep or too long. Calf knees, long, off set cannons and steep pasterns are serious faults penalized in Sport Horse in hand classes. Hooves should be of a good size, wide, uniform, correctly angled and free from clubbed feet—another serious and unfortunately all too common fault.
HIND LEGS- The gaskins should be long and well muscled. The hocks should be well let down and neither too straight nor overbent.
THE WALK- This should be free, swinging and ground covering with a good overstride of at least 6 inches.
THE TROT- This should show a good length of stride, with well engaged hocks, freedom in the shoulder and elbow, and the ability to extend.
Liz Salmon
Dear Liz
this is an excellent explanation. However, I think we all encounter here and there a problem, inasmuch as the
layman is unable to "see", what you so well explained.
I found a way to get around this, by putting a horse with
faults next to a horse which did not have them at the same area.
Now their eyes see, compare, and might remember for good.
Some people dont know what a calf knee is, havent seen a calf either, etc.etc.
Photos often help, but the horse in the flesh is a better comparrison.
Quite freqently people confuse a "rectangular" type horse with a "Long back horse". there is a destinct difference.
If for instance the Qhorse- cutting horse- is next to a Qhorse- racer- one usually sees a square type horse versa a rectangular horse. We know, that the latter is for distance, speed, endurance, while the other more for sprints, barrel racing, cattle cutting, etc.etc. Correct me, if I am wrong.
Hansi
-
this is an excellent explanation. However, I think we all encounter here and there a problem, inasmuch as the
layman is unable to "see", what you so well explained.
I found a way to get around this, by putting a horse with
faults next to a horse which did not have them at the same area.
Now their eyes see, compare, and might remember for good.
Some people dont know what a calf knee is, havent seen a calf either, etc.etc.
Photos often help, but the horse in the flesh is a better comparrison.
Quite freqently people confuse a "rectangular" type horse with a "Long back horse". there is a destinct difference.
If for instance the Qhorse- cutting horse- is next to a Qhorse- racer- one usually sees a square type horse versa a rectangular horse. We know, that the latter is for distance, speed, endurance, while the other more for sprints, barrel racing, cattle cutting, etc.etc. Correct me, if I am wrong.
Hansi
-
I always tell people that when they divide a horse into thirds, if the middle piece is longer, then the back is long. Someitmes iit's an optical illusion when the horse has a good length of rein with a sloping shoulder and a good length of hip. So that it appears to be long in the back. Calf knees are sometimes called back at the knees or as I often say front legs shaped like bananas !!!
I agree that having horses in front of you is the ideal situation. I give a lot of seminars that way. Liz Salmon
I agree that having horses in front of you is the ideal situation. I give a lot of seminars that way. Liz Salmon
Excellent explanation. I hope many breeders will read this. For the sake of our beloved Arabian horses.
Liz - Thank you for the great explanation.
But I am "one of those people", Hansi refers to, that can't really use this in real life, as I don't know what many of the names are.
(i'm not english/American, so I'm not fluent in english horse words
)
Could you or anyone mayve show a picture of a correct horse and one that isn't, with maybe lines, showing which angles and places your talking about?
That would be a big help and greatly apreciated.
Thanks, Stine
But I am "one of those people", Hansi refers to, that can't really use this in real life, as I don't know what many of the names are.
(i'm not english/American, so I'm not fluent in english horse words
)Could you or anyone mayve show a picture of a correct horse and one that isn't, with maybe lines, showing which angles and places your talking about?
That would be a big help and greatly apreciated.
Thanks, Stine
Good idea.
Hansi, Liz - would you be so kind to comment these legs/conformation?
It goes without saying that I will not reveal the name of the horses.
Hansi, Liz - would you be so kind to comment these legs/conformation?
It goes without saying that I will not reveal the name of the horses.
Here we go - Horse A:
Horse B:
Horse C:
In defence of the SEs, I see soundness problems in all Arabians, particularly those bred for the show ring, but not exclusively so... some breeders who are perhaps a little jealous of the show horses breed 'performance' horses with the same, or worse faults!
I have to agree with Liz that more colts need to gelded... therefore these horses will be ridden since there is nothing else for them to do. This is the major problem with SEs or indeed any rare and/or popular 'group'... the value of their bloodlines means that inferior horses are used for breeding or that the good ones are 'too valuable' to ride.
Very few Arabians are ever going to find their way into a top Endurance stable so I can see the point of people who think breeding for Endurance and other high-impact activities is a waste of time, however, I don't think it is a valid excuse to deliberately forget about soundness problems. In my opinion, any horse should be able to be a pleasure horse... for someone who only rides once or twice a week round the block then a clubbed foot or swayed back may never be an issue. But I also consider Pony Club activities as 'pleasure level' and there are an increasing number of Arabians that would not last long being ridden by a kid. Kids who love horses ride most days and often ride fast.... racing their friends, jumping.... and of course being kids they give no thought to legging-up training for weeks before a one-day-event, or even day-to-day warming up or cooling down exercises! How many breeders could hand over their Arabian to a speed-loving 10 year old for a couple of years, and know they would have their horse returned to them sound?
The best way to figure out which 'faults' really matter is to read Endurance ride results and figure out which horses are always vetting out for lameness. Why endurance? Because endurance is the only discipline where a horse has to pass a vet exam at least 3, up to 9 times! Then go and have a look at these horses (taking into account the trainer/rider). My observations are... clubbed feet and splayed lower legs (turned out) are almost guaranteed to go lame early in their careers (ie end at 12 years of age as opposed to some horses going on till they're 20). Rump-high horses, especially accompanied by a low 'mutton' wither often get sore in the shoulders, especially on a hilly ride. Long backs also can become sore particularly under heavy weight riders. Horses with weak movement from behind often get very sore muscles in their hindquarters needing alot of massage therapy to get them through. On the other hand I have seen apalling offset cannons win World Champion.... such horses are usually ridden by 'genius' trainers though. All horses have faults and most can be managed if you are aware of them, but some major faults (like clubbed feet) are simply not acceptable in any horse.
I believe an Arabian can be beautiful and fuctional. I try to breed horses like this but as a small breeder I doubt my horses will ever have any influence on the breed as a greater whole.
Many of the show champions of today, are, in my opinion, very good potential riding horses. But that is all they are.... potential. Nobody seems to ride them in a competitive environment. Each to their own in what they want to breed, but how many times do we hear non-Arabian horse owners taking the mickey out of our 'ornaments', to the howls of protest from us Arabian breeders? We don't like being told our horses can't be ridden but we'll be damned if we actually do anything to prove otherwise!
I have to agree with Liz that more colts need to gelded... therefore these horses will be ridden since there is nothing else for them to do. This is the major problem with SEs or indeed any rare and/or popular 'group'... the value of their bloodlines means that inferior horses are used for breeding or that the good ones are 'too valuable' to ride.
Very few Arabians are ever going to find their way into a top Endurance stable so I can see the point of people who think breeding for Endurance and other high-impact activities is a waste of time, however, I don't think it is a valid excuse to deliberately forget about soundness problems. In my opinion, any horse should be able to be a pleasure horse... for someone who only rides once or twice a week round the block then a clubbed foot or swayed back may never be an issue. But I also consider Pony Club activities as 'pleasure level' and there are an increasing number of Arabians that would not last long being ridden by a kid. Kids who love horses ride most days and often ride fast.... racing their friends, jumping.... and of course being kids they give no thought to legging-up training for weeks before a one-day-event, or even day-to-day warming up or cooling down exercises! How many breeders could hand over their Arabian to a speed-loving 10 year old for a couple of years, and know they would have their horse returned to them sound?
The best way to figure out which 'faults' really matter is to read Endurance ride results and figure out which horses are always vetting out for lameness. Why endurance? Because endurance is the only discipline where a horse has to pass a vet exam at least 3, up to 9 times! Then go and have a look at these horses (taking into account the trainer/rider). My observations are... clubbed feet and splayed lower legs (turned out) are almost guaranteed to go lame early in their careers (ie end at 12 years of age as opposed to some horses going on till they're 20). Rump-high horses, especially accompanied by a low 'mutton' wither often get sore in the shoulders, especially on a hilly ride. Long backs also can become sore particularly under heavy weight riders. Horses with weak movement from behind often get very sore muscles in their hindquarters needing alot of massage therapy to get them through. On the other hand I have seen apalling offset cannons win World Champion.... such horses are usually ridden by 'genius' trainers though. All horses have faults and most can be managed if you are aware of them, but some major faults (like clubbed feet) are simply not acceptable in any horse.
I believe an Arabian can be beautiful and fuctional. I try to breed horses like this but as a small breeder I doubt my horses will ever have any influence on the breed as a greater whole.
Many of the show champions of today, are, in my opinion, very good potential riding horses. But that is all they are.... potential. Nobody seems to ride them in a competitive environment. Each to their own in what they want to breed, but how many times do we hear non-Arabian horse owners taking the mickey out of our 'ornaments', to the howls of protest from us Arabian breeders? We don't like being told our horses can't be ridden but we'll be damned if we actually do anything to prove otherwise!
Hello Everyone,
At the risk of making an idiot of myself, I'd like to share something of my life here in Australia.
I was born from a "horsey" family tree. My Mother rode showjumpers & hacks. Both my Grandfathers were in the Lighthorse. My Maternal Grandfather used to ride a bucking horse with a fag hanging out of his mouth. I first became a proud owner of an arabian in the '70's. Being an Australian, at that time there were very few egyptian related or SE's in this country at that time. But my love for the SE was still there. I bought a 75% colt in 1981. This colt I broke in & educated myself, he was Arabian Park Afraz (Arabian Prk Faraz x Arabian Park Elfin)
Raz was ridden on a daily basis, did stockwork on a property of 15,000 acres & was shown undersaddle, hacking, costume, stockhorse, sidesaddle etc. He attained his +CH at halter & performance. I raced him from the age of 8 years for a period of 10 years. This mighty stallion was only 14:1 1/2 HH but over a sprint distance he was almost unbeatable. He had the biggest heart & was a determined little.......
Australia has always loved it's Crabbett horses & at times I found it hard going to have this horse judged fairly but in time this did happen. He proved he was a saddle horse, that he was sound & had an exceptional temperament. I usually floated him hundreds of miles just to get to a show, with a mare in the float along side him.
More than 20 years later, Raz is long gone but I still mourn the loss of this truly beautiful animal. He was my best friend, my dependable saddle horse & an exceptional arab. I have one of his daughters under saddle now. While she will never have to do the work her sire did, I still expect her to be a reliable & honest ride. She is worked on the lunge most days & is then lightly educated undersaddle. There are days when we go out on trail rides & maybe gallop after a roo just for fun.
I have a number of SE's now & have bred up a little herd of sound but beautiful horses. I have a 5 yo mare that I bred that I am breaking in. She is worked on the lunge with the saddle on most days & will soon go to the breaker to be backed, as I don't do this anymore myself. I still like to mouth them & do the groung work. Eventually I will have to stop doing even this much, but until then I will enjoy this task.
I have travelled to Egypt twice to visit breeders & late last year I was able to attend the National Championship show at Saqqara.
So you see there are small breeders who are riders, who are dedicated to the breed & to the SE. We can read a horse, we do understand how it uses itself. We understand that if we want a sound horse it shouldn't be asked to much too soon. A poor rider can do a huge amount of damage, in a short space of time. Back problems can be traced back to a poor rider, a person who doesn't take the time to "look" after their mount. They just ride & put them back in the yard, paddock, stable. They make no attempt to give the animal a back massage or to free up the horses muscles after work. This may be due to ignorance.
I hope I haven't bored you all to tears. See you from the land down under.........Debbie
At the risk of making an idiot of myself, I'd like to share something of my life here in Australia.
I was born from a "horsey" family tree. My Mother rode showjumpers & hacks. Both my Grandfathers were in the Lighthorse. My Maternal Grandfather used to ride a bucking horse with a fag hanging out of his mouth. I first became a proud owner of an arabian in the '70's. Being an Australian, at that time there were very few egyptian related or SE's in this country at that time. But my love for the SE was still there. I bought a 75% colt in 1981. This colt I broke in & educated myself, he was Arabian Park Afraz (Arabian Prk Faraz x Arabian Park Elfin)
Raz was ridden on a daily basis, did stockwork on a property of 15,000 acres & was shown undersaddle, hacking, costume, stockhorse, sidesaddle etc. He attained his +CH at halter & performance. I raced him from the age of 8 years for a period of 10 years. This mighty stallion was only 14:1 1/2 HH but over a sprint distance he was almost unbeatable. He had the biggest heart & was a determined little.......
Australia has always loved it's Crabbett horses & at times I found it hard going to have this horse judged fairly but in time this did happen. He proved he was a saddle horse, that he was sound & had an exceptional temperament. I usually floated him hundreds of miles just to get to a show, with a mare in the float along side him.
More than 20 years later, Raz is long gone but I still mourn the loss of this truly beautiful animal. He was my best friend, my dependable saddle horse & an exceptional arab. I have one of his daughters under saddle now. While she will never have to do the work her sire did, I still expect her to be a reliable & honest ride. She is worked on the lunge most days & is then lightly educated undersaddle. There are days when we go out on trail rides & maybe gallop after a roo just for fun.
I have a number of SE's now & have bred up a little herd of sound but beautiful horses. I have a 5 yo mare that I bred that I am breaking in. She is worked on the lunge with the saddle on most days & will soon go to the breaker to be backed, as I don't do this anymore myself. I still like to mouth them & do the groung work. Eventually I will have to stop doing even this much, but until then I will enjoy this task.
I have travelled to Egypt twice to visit breeders & late last year I was able to attend the National Championship show at Saqqara.
So you see there are small breeders who are riders, who are dedicated to the breed & to the SE. We can read a horse, we do understand how it uses itself. We understand that if we want a sound horse it shouldn't be asked to much too soon. A poor rider can do a huge amount of damage, in a short space of time. Back problems can be traced back to a poor rider, a person who doesn't take the time to "look" after their mount. They just ride & put them back in the yard, paddock, stable. They make no attempt to give the animal a back massage or to free up the horses muscles after work. This may be due to ignorance.
I hope I haven't bored you all to tears. See you from the land down under.........Debbie
Dear tiawarra
this is so true, many a top horse has been ruined by bad trainers/rider and many a bad horse gone to wins because of expert training and riding.
But let's start out with something good, if we can.
Have a nie evening
Hansi
this is so true, many a top horse has been ruined by bad trainers/rider and many a bad horse gone to wins because of expert training and riding.
But let's start out with something good, if we can.
Have a nie evening
Hansi
I followed this discussion from the beginning and was as much interested as the one or the other to learn how to really SEE conformation faults and to hear which faults can make a horse unusable for riding. Of course, I have books that can guide me in some way but comparison with real horses is much more helpful. And unfortunately, when horses are judged in a show there is never an explanation for the points the judges give... All I watch is that usually points for legs are much lower than for head and type. I often asked myself whether all the legs are so bad to deserve only low points..
So, I was quite curious to hear comments on the 3 horses on the photos that Oliver put in. But much to my surprise there is not one comment on this for 2 days now! And I wonder about it, especially since this discussion is about conformation and function and no one dares to say something about these horses on the photos? How comes? (If one is hesitating because the horses could be recognized and the owners could be offended by a comment I gladly offer to put photos of my own horses or other Arabian horses that surely nobody knows.)
I have my personal ideas about the legs of these 3 horses but I admit I don't want to comment since I am not an expert. But I am eager to learn and to see whether I'm right or wrong.... And therefore I guess it would be interesting for me and the other laymen to hear the experts opinions.
By the way, I discovered in a Danish forum for Arabian horses a section that allows people to present photos of their horses for judgement by other participants. Unfortunately, it's only in Danish language which I don't understand. But I like the idea very much. What do you think if we had something similar here in this forum? I guess it might not be useful for the laymen only...
Regards, Dana
So, I was quite curious to hear comments on the 3 horses on the photos that Oliver put in. But much to my surprise there is not one comment on this for 2 days now! And I wonder about it, especially since this discussion is about conformation and function and no one dares to say something about these horses on the photos? How comes? (If one is hesitating because the horses could be recognized and the owners could be offended by a comment I gladly offer to put photos of my own horses or other Arabian horses that surely nobody knows.)
I have my personal ideas about the legs of these 3 horses but I admit I don't want to comment since I am not an expert. But I am eager to learn and to see whether I'm right or wrong.... And therefore I guess it would be interesting for me and the other laymen to hear the experts opinions.
By the way, I discovered in a Danish forum for Arabian horses a section that allows people to present photos of their horses for judgement by other participants. Unfortunately, it's only in Danish language which I don't understand. But I like the idea very much. What do you think if we had something similar here in this forum? I guess it might not be useful for the laymen only...
Regards, Dana
Yes, I am surprised, too. Many of us are waiting impatiently but nothing happens.
Here we have three examples of conformatio/legs and no one tries to explain the
differences, the good points or the negative points.
Judi Parks sent aother couple of leg photos.
Perhaps someone will start the evaluation...?
Here we have three examples of conformatio/legs and no one tries to explain the
differences, the good points or the negative points.
Judi Parks sent aother couple of leg photos.
Perhaps someone will start the evaluation...?
Sorry, Oliver, but evaluation of these photos is not possible because of:
No. 1: shadows, side perspective and left front leg set behind.
No. 2: uneven ground. Right front hoof could stand on stone etc.
No. 3: shadows, uneven ground, unusual perspective to close up to the horse
NEVER jugde legs from photos, undefined perspectives, poor illumination and uneven ground.
Is that what you wanted to tell us with ????
No. 1: shadows, side perspective and left front leg set behind.
No. 2: uneven ground. Right front hoof could stand on stone etc.
No. 3: shadows, uneven ground, unusual perspective to close up to the horse
NEVER jugde legs from photos, undefined perspectives, poor illumination and uneven ground.
Is that what you wanted to tell us with ????
Try the pictures A, B and C.
It's absolutely right that from photos there is no 100% evaluation possible.
But it's possible to explain some good points and some negative aspects.
Many authors did that in their books. Why not here? At least the photos
give you a hint...
Picture A: The horse is standing on absolute even ground.
Picture B: You can see it right from the side.
Picture C: Again, you can see all four legs.
It's absolutely right that from photos there is no 100% evaluation possible.
But it's possible to explain some good points and some negative aspects.
Many authors did that in their books. Why not here? At least the photos
give you a hint...
Picture A: The horse is standing on absolute even ground.
Picture B: You can see it right from the side.
Picture C: Again, you can see all four legs.
Ok, I'll start the ball rolling, purely on what I see from the photos, which may or may not be deceptive.
HORSE A. Positives. Long well muscled forearms, short cannons, correct slope of pasterns, good depth of the heart girth, fairly good shoulder angle.
Negatives. Gaskins too short, hocks up in the air, loins look weak and croup uneven, hip looks too short.
HORSE B Positives. Good smooth topline and depth in the heart girth. Hocks well let down, good length of the hip. Long well muscled forearms, short cannons.
Negatives. Shoulder could be more sloping.Slightly tied in below the knees. Right front looks slightly back at the knee (calf kneed). Gaskins could be longer and better muscled. Pasterns slightly too long and angled. Thoroughpin in hock joint.
HORSE C. Positive. Excellent. smooth topline with short strong back. Good long hip. Good shoulder angle and depth in the heart girth. Long well muscled forearms and gaskins. Short cannons. Hocks well let down. Correct pastern angles.
Negatives. Right front looks like a slightly clubbed foot.
This ONLY what I THINK I can see from the photos—others may disagree. I used to use photos, when I was teaching judgings classes at the University. Liz Salmon
HORSE A. Positives. Long well muscled forearms, short cannons, correct slope of pasterns, good depth of the heart girth, fairly good shoulder angle.
Negatives. Gaskins too short, hocks up in the air, loins look weak and croup uneven, hip looks too short.
HORSE B Positives. Good smooth topline and depth in the heart girth. Hocks well let down, good length of the hip. Long well muscled forearms, short cannons.
Negatives. Shoulder could be more sloping.Slightly tied in below the knees. Right front looks slightly back at the knee (calf kneed). Gaskins could be longer and better muscled. Pasterns slightly too long and angled. Thoroughpin in hock joint.
HORSE C. Positive. Excellent. smooth topline with short strong back. Good long hip. Good shoulder angle and depth in the heart girth. Long well muscled forearms and gaskins. Short cannons. Hocks well let down. Correct pastern angles.
Negatives. Right front looks like a slightly clubbed foot.
This ONLY what I THINK I can see from the photos—others may disagree. I used to use photos, when I was teaching judgings classes at the University. Liz Salmon
Thank you Oliver for posting the photos of the legs.
I sent these photos because two out of the three photos show a very obvious leg fault. One photo shows proper proportions.
Dr. Daniel, one has to be able to evalulate legs in a variety of unusual circumstances when one is judging. The ground is often not level and most often the horse does not stand still, let alone stand four square, at least not in halter classes that I have seen in the U.S. Obvious leg faults can usually be seen from a distance as well as from close up. Can you see any leg faults in these photos regardless of shaddow or leg position?
I sent these photos because two out of the three photos show a very obvious leg fault. One photo shows proper proportions.
Dr. Daniel, one has to be able to evalulate legs in a variety of unusual circumstances when one is judging. The ground is often not level and most often the horse does not stand still, let alone stand four square, at least not in halter classes that I have seen in the U.S. Obvious leg faults can usually be seen from a distance as well as from close up. Can you see any leg faults in these photos regardless of shaddow or leg position?
Liz: Thank you very much...good start 
but I still don't really know what is the Cannons, pasterns etc? - and where is the shoulder angle?
Could you show by drawing lines on the picture like this (just an example, as I said, I don't know exactly where the places you're describing are:)
Thanks Stine
but I still don't really know what is the Cannons, pasterns etc? - and where is the shoulder angle?Could you show by drawing lines on the picture like this (just an example, as I said, I don't know exactly where the places you're describing are:)
Thanks Stine
The leg photos—Number 1 shows long cannons, calf knees, steep pasterns and small knee joints.
Number 2 show very correct leg proportions.
Number 3 shows badly offset knee on the right front
Liz Salmon
Number 2 show very correct leg proportions.
Number 3 shows badly offset knee on the right front
Liz Salmon
I'm not very computer literate enough to draw lines on the photo, but I will describe the front leg from the hoof upwards. The bone attached to the hoof is the pastern which ideally should be a 45deg angle. The joint attached to the pastern is the fetlock. The cannon bone is attached to the fetlock and the knee. The forearm is attached to the knee and elbow. The hind leg from the hoof up is again pastern, fetlock, cannon bone, then hock, then the gaskin—sometimes called a second thigh.
The shoulder angle goes from the highest point of the withers (where the back joins the neck and directly in front of where a saddle should fit) to the point of the shoulder, which is just below where you have drawn at the bottom. You can actually see the point of the bone in the photo. I hope this helps. Liz Salmon
The shoulder angle goes from the highest point of the withers (where the back joins the neck and directly in front of where a saddle should fit) to the point of the shoulder, which is just below where you have drawn at the bottom. You can actually see the point of the bone in the photo. I hope this helps. Liz Salmon
Good morning Dr Wigger and all
I agree with you, also I tried honestly to evalute and have problems. I dont like the bay's front leg too much, forearm in comparrison to cannon bone is too short. Off front looks if it had bucked shins. Pastern a fraction to long.
But all this can be because of the photo.
But what I noticed is that each one has the tail sticking out like a broom stick, like if the poopoer hurts. May be also this is because of a poor photo?
Judi Parks put some on, and again I take a chance in judging.
the grey has an offset cannon bone- off fore front leg-
the other, dont know how to judge.Photos not clear
enough. I also dont see all the things Liz does. May be her eyes are more schooled to look at photos, then mine..
Oliver, to judge photos is realy dangerous and can hurt people or a horse. I have seens photo thinking the horse is "bodenweit" and was not, seen false bogs, and it was a shadow, and on and on. there have been some photos, which could be more clearly analyzed, and judging became more correct. Please nobody take offence.
all have a nice day
Hansi
I agree with you, also I tried honestly to evalute and have problems. I dont like the bay's front leg too much, forearm in comparrison to cannon bone is too short. Off front looks if it had bucked shins. Pastern a fraction to long.
But all this can be because of the photo.
But what I noticed is that each one has the tail sticking out like a broom stick, like if the poopoer hurts. May be also this is because of a poor photo?
Judi Parks put some on, and again I take a chance in judging.
the grey has an offset cannon bone- off fore front leg-
the other, dont know how to judge.Photos not clear
enough. I also dont see all the things Liz does. May be her eyes are more schooled to look at photos, then mine..
Oliver, to judge photos is realy dangerous and can hurt people or a horse. I have seens photo thinking the horse is "bodenweit" and was not, seen false bogs, and it was a shadow, and on and on. there have been some photos, which could be more clearly analyzed, and judging became more correct. Please nobody take offence.
all have a nice day
Hansi
I'm shortly going to try, with the help of my computer wizard husband, to post a diagram naming the parts of the horse with bone angles, which should help some of you understand. Liz Salmon
good morning Liz
that would be wonderful. I have five systems of the horse on a 4x3 feet linnen table. It's about 52 years old and extremely educating. I brought it back from Germany when I came to Canada in 1952. You can open one system up and see every part of the inside of the horse too. We had to learn the - at least 5 systems- of the seven.
It's like the motor in a car. If you just drive for pleasure it.s one thing, if you drive for testing/racing, another.
When that race car driver at the Indi 500 goes into the pit, having seconds to get in and out, he cant say "Gentlemen there is something wrong with my car" He has to know and tell them what to look for and fix. Time is an essence.
I feel it is very important to teach people also what makes a horse tick. This will help avoiding injuries, sickness,behavior, ec. I have never heard of a seminar, where this subject is tackled, structures truly analyzed and differences taught. I guess this is why some people realy dont have a clue from of what we sometimes say "from which end the horse eats".
I guess the best teacher still is "hand on works" while books are only guidelines..
Have a nice day
hansi
that would be wonderful. I have five systems of the horse on a 4x3 feet linnen table. It's about 52 years old and extremely educating. I brought it back from Germany when I came to Canada in 1952. You can open one system up and see every part of the inside of the horse too. We had to learn the - at least 5 systems- of the seven.
It's like the motor in a car. If you just drive for pleasure it.s one thing, if you drive for testing/racing, another.
When that race car driver at the Indi 500 goes into the pit, having seconds to get in and out, he cant say "Gentlemen there is something wrong with my car" He has to know and tell them what to look for and fix. Time is an essence.
I feel it is very important to teach people also what makes a horse tick. This will help avoiding injuries, sickness,behavior, ec. I have never heard of a seminar, where this subject is tackled, structures truly analyzed and differences taught. I guess this is why some people realy dont have a clue from of what we sometimes say "from which end the horse eats".
I guess the best teacher still is "hand on works" while books are only guidelines..
Have a nice day
hansi
I have taught many clinics on conformation, and after teaching students all those years, after a whole semester about 50% of them just didn't have an eye for judging conformation. I tend to think that we have some of those judging here in the States !!! Liz Salmon
Thank you Liz for commenting on the leg faults. I wanted to show everyone the offset cannon in photo #3, as well as in photo #1.Yes, photo one does appear to have the faults you mention. Photo #2 shows proper leg proportions which is a long forearm with a short cannon.
Photos are very hard to judge but the photos posted are solely for educational purposes and these headless horses are not going to be named, nor will they lose their virtual halter championships due to being used for demonstration purposes.
Another big problem that I have seen in legs is being tied in behind the knee. Unfortunately I don't have a photo that shows this problem.
Judi
Hi Liz
thank you. I guess, one can also comment on this structore.
the SE's usually have a flat knee, which could be translated by some as a calf knee, which it is not.
Here you can clearly see that the knee is a bit "meaty" but at least the cannon bones fits at least twice into the forearm.
The angulation and the length of hip/buttock/stifle destorts. It looks like, if the point of the hip is sitting almost on the tail and withit making the croup look oversized. I would also like to see a deeper hock, this one looks a bit flimpsy. also would like to see the hock a bit more in line with the knees. In this drawing it's too high, making the forearm of the hind legs look too short.
I guess, no drawing can be perfect, as no horse is.
thanks again, it does help however.
Hansi
thank you. I guess, one can also comment on this structore.
the SE's usually have a flat knee, which could be translated by some as a calf knee, which it is not.
Here you can clearly see that the knee is a bit "meaty" but at least the cannon bones fits at least twice into the forearm.
The angulation and the length of hip/buttock/stifle destorts. It looks like, if the point of the hip is sitting almost on the tail and withit making the croup look oversized. I would also like to see a deeper hock, this one looks a bit flimpsy. also would like to see the hock a bit more in line with the knees. In this drawing it's too high, making the forearm of the hind legs look too short.
I guess, no drawing can be perfect, as no horse is.
thanks again, it does help however.
Hansi
ok, I will try drawing lines from your description. Please let me know if I'm wrong:
Red triangle - showing angle of pastern?
Blue line - Cannon Bone?
Light Green - Forearm?
Purple - shoulder angle?
The back leg I think i have sussed
Thank you so much for helping.
Stine
Red triangle - showing angle of pastern?
Blue line - Cannon Bone?
Light Green - Forearm?
Purple - shoulder angle?
The back leg I think i have sussed
Thank you so much for helping.
Stine
Hansi, in my opinion all horses should have broad flat knees. To help people understand calf knees, I use the phrase, shaped like a banana. Coming from under the knee, with the inward curve of the banana being in the front of the cannon and the outward curve being the back of the cannon. Perhaps we'll get a photo of bad ones. I know of a past US National Champion stallion (now deceased), whose photo I constantly used for my students, as he had the following bad front leg faults. Short forearms, long cannons, very calf kneed, short steep pasterns and a club foot.
Stine111, I think you've got it !! The shoulder angle is not quite right, but near enough.
Liz Salmon
Stine111, I think you've got it !! The shoulder angle is not quite right, but near enough.
Liz Salmon
Thanks Liz, I know what a calf knee is. It might be a good idea to show people a "calf". the eye sees.
I like you to take another look at the drawing you published, which really is a very good education thing.
dont you have the feeling the horse is higher in the rearend, the hocks being so much higher than the knees?
May be it is the angle it is taken, or may be my aging eyes dont see so well anymore?
to me personally the hocks are very important and I place more emphasis on a good hind leg, than a front leg. with knowledgable training one can preserve a poor front leg with excellent hind legs. But I cant preserve a bad hind leg, that's the motor, carrying the horse and me.But if both are soso, then it is Kati bare the door for me. My cars need good tires, my horses good legs. Indeed some faults are not detrimental, like a short forearm. this you see in draft horses. But then they have to pull, and are not ridden by enlarge and dont need that long stride.
thanks again for your kind explanations and the drawing
Hansi
I like you to take another look at the drawing you published, which really is a very good education thing.
dont you have the feeling the horse is higher in the rearend, the hocks being so much higher than the knees?
May be it is the angle it is taken, or may be my aging eyes dont see so well anymore?
to me personally the hocks are very important and I place more emphasis on a good hind leg, than a front leg. with knowledgable training one can preserve a poor front leg with excellent hind legs. But I cant preserve a bad hind leg, that's the motor, carrying the horse and me.But if both are soso, then it is Kati bare the door for me. My cars need good tires, my horses good legs. Indeed some faults are not detrimental, like a short forearm. this you see in draft horses. But then they have to pull, and are not ridden by enlarge and dont need that long stride.
thanks again for your kind explanations and the drawing
Hansi
Hansi, i know you know what a calf knee is, I was trying to give a more explicit discription for others. I really don' t see in the diagram that the hocks are 'so much higher than the knees'. I personally forgive faults in the hind legs more than the front legs, since 60% of the weight is always going onto those front legs.
I have seen so many successful racehorses and endurance horses who are faulty in the hindlegs (cow hocks, sickle hocks etc) that never break down, but they must have a good well devoped hind quarter as that is the engine. I was told by a racehorse trainer that the front legs better be soundly conformed. He looked at a horse with me once and said "I could break down those front legs in a heart beat". In fact this trainer said that cow hocks mean that the horse will never interfere with the front legs, as they will always go outside the tracks of the front legs.
Each of us has an opinion based on experiences, and if the truth be known, they should be respected. Liz Salmon
I have seen so many successful racehorses and endurance horses who are faulty in the hindlegs (cow hocks, sickle hocks etc) that never break down, but they must have a good well devoped hind quarter as that is the engine. I was told by a racehorse trainer that the front legs better be soundly conformed. He looked at a horse with me once and said "I could break down those front legs in a heart beat". In fact this trainer said that cow hocks mean that the horse will never interfere with the front legs, as they will always go outside the tracks of the front legs.
Each of us has an opinion based on experiences, and if the truth be known, they should be respected. Liz Salmon
Yes Liz, I absolutely agree here. the pounding the front legs take in racing, jumping is extensive. I was also not referring to bad tendons, joints etc, but rather EVEN pidgeon toes or splayfeet or even a bit too short or long pasterns.
When the hind legs, the hocks, are strong and well let out, indeed it can preserve some of the minor faults of the front legs. If you have correct front legs, and bad hind legs (hocks) it wont get you very far. they would bog on you in a heartbeat, just as bad tendons in front blow on you (bow)
.
Take a measure on the hocks and knees of the drawing.
It looks to me of the Hocks are higher set than the knees.
When I see a trotting horse, I like to lay a stick on on the foalding of the hocks and knees, and they should be then in one line at a certain time.
I guess, explaining in writing is often difficult and can confuse, me at least. Often we all talk paralell to each other.
Have a nice day
Hansi
When the hind legs, the hocks, are strong and well let out, indeed it can preserve some of the minor faults of the front legs. If you have correct front legs, and bad hind legs (hocks) it wont get you very far. they would bog on you in a heartbeat, just as bad tendons in front blow on you (bow)
.
Take a measure on the hocks and knees of the drawing.
It looks to me of the Hocks are higher set than the knees.
When I see a trotting horse, I like to lay a stick on on the foalding of the hocks and knees, and they should be then in one line at a certain time.
I guess, explaining in writing is often difficult and can confuse, me at least. Often we all talk paralell to each other.
Have a nice day
Hansi
I did post a croped pic of a horse that i think shows bad front leg conformation ie back at the knee.
Sorry I have thought better of this idea now, i do not own this horse and do not wish to get in a fight with owners if they recognised this set of legs. Pity because i think they show back at the knee quite well. Sorry for wasting your time cheers jo
P.s i can't figure out how to delete thias message?
Sorry I have thought better of this idea now, i do not own this horse and do not wish to get in a fight with owners if they recognised this set of legs. Pity because i think they show back at the knee quite well. Sorry for wasting your time cheers jo
P.s i can't figure out how to delete thias message?
QUOTE
CONFORMATION OF THE HORSE'S LIMBS
IN PROFILE
These 10 sketches show some variation in conformation of the limbs when viewed in profile. The upper series of diagrams (A to E) indicate t;he forelimb and the first of these (A) shows the most regular conformation. A line dropped vertically from the centre of suspension of the forelimb (I) -the point within the origin of the ventral serrate on the rib-cage medial to a point midway along the length of the scapula -passes through the middle of the arm (2) and the middle of the hoof (3). This vertical line is also positioned more or less midway between vertical lines dropped from the point of the shoulder (4) and the point of the elbow (5). When the vertical ( I -3) passes down in front of the hoof (as in diagram
the horse is 'under himself in front' since the direct axis of the limb, indicated by a broken line, is inclined down and back instead of vertically as in diagram A. This conformation shortens the base of support and so equilibrium is less stable the animal being more likely to fall on its knees: forging is also likely during movement the hindfeet tending to meet the forefeet.
If the vertical (I -3) passes down be- hind the heels (as in diagram C) the horse is' camped in front' since the direct axis of the limb is inclined downwards and forwards. The base of support is extended (lengthened) rendering equilibrium more stable but probably reducing speed. Weight is thrown more onto the heels and the back tendons are subjected to increased strain. Horses camped in front may become so due to some chronic foot condition such as laminitis in an attempt to relieve the weight borne by the forelimb. This may then give rise to excessive weight distribution on the hocks at the rear end and their consequent wear .
In the regular conformation depicted in diagram A the direct axis of the limb (broken line) passes vertically down from the centre of rotation of the elbow joint (6) through the centre of the knee (7), forecannon and fetlock (8), and, were it continued, would meet the ground a little behind the heels. Should the knee be placed to the rear of this line, as in diagram D, the axis becomes bent and the knee is said to be' hollow' or' sheep- like'. Such a conformation may give rise to extra strain on the ligaments behind the knee and the back tendons, running down behind the knee and forecannon, since body weight is no longer being carried by a vertical column of bones. Should the knee, on the other hand, project forwards in front of this vertical line, as in diagram E, the horse is said to be' knee- sprung' or 'over at the knee'. A horse with such a conformation may well be liable to stumble and fall on its knees.
The lower series of sketches (F to K) indicate the hindlimb in profile and the first (F) shows the most regular conformation. Here a line dropped vertically from the centre of suspension of the hindlimb (9) -the hip joint medial to the greater trochanter of the femur -passes down through the middle of the second thigh (10) and the middle of the hoof (II). This vertical line is also positioned more or less midway between vertical lines dropped from the patella (12) and the point of the buttock (13). When this vertical line (9 -II) passes down in front of the hoof (as in diagram G) the horse is 'camped behind' since the direct axis of the limb, indicated by a broken line, is inclined more down and back than in diagram F . It lengthens the base of support but throws more supporting function on the muscles of the back and loins so the horse may also exhibit a 'sway-back' as well as always being liable to slip backwards during movement.
If the line 9-11 passes down behind the heels (as in diagram H) the horse is 'under himself behind' since the direct axis of the limb is considerably more upright than in diagram F. The base of support is thereby shortened and equilibrium is less stable; the horse is liable to slip forwards during movement and forging is likely to occur .
A line dropped vertically down from the point of the buttock (13) should pass slightly behind and practically parallel to the back tendons from the point of the hock to the fetlock (as in diagram F). In an excessively angulated limb a) the hock may extend behind this line while the foot is placed in advance of the vertical dropped from the hip (9- 11). The hock in such an instance is referred to as 'elbowed' or 'sickled'. This conformation imposes excessive strain and wear on the bones of the hock and the ligaments and tendons supporting the fetlock and foot. On the other hand, the hock may be placed in advance of the vertical (9-11) dropped from the hip, but the hind- cannon may be almost vertical as in diagram K. The hock is then termed 'straight' and this conformation may impart great speed.
IN PROFILE
These 10 sketches show some variation in conformation of the limbs when viewed in profile. The upper series of diagrams (A to E) indicate t;he forelimb and the first of these (A) shows the most regular conformation. A line dropped vertically from the centre of suspension of the forelimb (I) -the point within the origin of the ventral serrate on the rib-cage medial to a point midway along the length of the scapula -passes through the middle of the arm (2) and the middle of the hoof (3). This vertical line is also positioned more or less midway between vertical lines dropped from the point of the shoulder (4) and the point of the elbow (5). When the vertical ( I -3) passes down in front of the hoof (as in diagram
the horse is 'under himself in front' since the direct axis of the limb, indicated by a broken line, is inclined down and back instead of vertically as in diagram A. This conformation shortens the base of support and so equilibrium is less stable the animal being more likely to fall on its knees: forging is also likely during movement the hindfeet tending to meet the forefeet. If the vertical (I -3) passes down be- hind the heels (as in diagram C) the horse is' camped in front' since the direct axis of the limb is inclined downwards and forwards. The base of support is extended (lengthened) rendering equilibrium more stable but probably reducing speed. Weight is thrown more onto the heels and the back tendons are subjected to increased strain. Horses camped in front may become so due to some chronic foot condition such as laminitis in an attempt to relieve the weight borne by the forelimb. This may then give rise to excessive weight distribution on the hocks at the rear end and their consequent wear .
In the regular conformation depicted in diagram A the direct axis of the limb (broken line) passes vertically down from the centre of rotation of the elbow joint (6) through the centre of the knee (7), forecannon and fetlock (8), and, were it continued, would meet the ground a little behind the heels. Should the knee be placed to the rear of this line, as in diagram D, the axis becomes bent and the knee is said to be' hollow' or' sheep- like'. Such a conformation may give rise to extra strain on the ligaments behind the knee and the back tendons, running down behind the knee and forecannon, since body weight is no longer being carried by a vertical column of bones. Should the knee, on the other hand, project forwards in front of this vertical line, as in diagram E, the horse is said to be' knee- sprung' or 'over at the knee'. A horse with such a conformation may well be liable to stumble and fall on its knees.
The lower series of sketches (F to K) indicate the hindlimb in profile and the first (F) shows the most regular conformation. Here a line dropped vertically from the centre of suspension of the hindlimb (9) -the hip joint medial to the greater trochanter of the femur -passes down through the middle of the second thigh (10) and the middle of the hoof (II). This vertical line is also positioned more or less midway between vertical lines dropped from the patella (12) and the point of the buttock (13). When this vertical line (9 -II) passes down in front of the hoof (as in diagram G) the horse is 'camped behind' since the direct axis of the limb, indicated by a broken line, is inclined more down and back than in diagram F . It lengthens the base of support but throws more supporting function on the muscles of the back and loins so the horse may also exhibit a 'sway-back' as well as always being liable to slip backwards during movement.
If the line 9-11 passes down behind the heels (as in diagram H) the horse is 'under himself behind' since the direct axis of the limb is considerably more upright than in diagram F. The base of support is thereby shortened and equilibrium is less stable; the horse is liable to slip forwards during movement and forging is likely to occur .
A line dropped vertically down from the point of the buttock (13) should pass slightly behind and practically parallel to the back tendons from the point of the hock to the fetlock (as in diagram F). In an excessively angulated limb a) the hock may extend behind this line while the foot is placed in advance of the vertical dropped from the hip (9- 11). The hock in such an instance is referred to as 'elbowed' or 'sickled'. This conformation imposes excessive strain and wear on the bones of the hock and the ligaments and tendons supporting the fetlock and foot. On the other hand, the hock may be placed in advance of the vertical (9-11) dropped from the hip, but the hind- cannon may be almost vertical as in diagram K. The hock is then termed 'straight' and this conformation may impart great speed.
Horse Anatomy: A pictorial approach to equine structure. Peter C Goody BSc PhD (1983)
QUOTE
25
CONFORMATION OF THE HORSE'S FORELIMBS AND HINDLIMBS
This series of sketches shows some possible variations in conformation of the limbs in relation to the body when the horse is viewed from in front (diagrams A-F), and from behind (diagrams G-L). For the forelimb the axis which is used for comparative purposes is a vertical line dropped from the point of the shoulder . In diagram A this vertical axis passes down more or less through the centre of the knee, cannon, fetlock, and foot. With such a limb position the space between the two feet is about equal to the width of one foot from quarter to quarter. This regular stance may be modified in several ways. In diagram B the two hoofs con- verge and the condition is known as, cross-footed in front' or simply' pigeon- toed'. Should the knee also be arched outwards the horse is 'bow-legged', but such a conformation tends to be rare. This type of conformation produces an unequal contact of the hoof with the ground and a consequent increase in wear of the lateral quarter and decrease of the medial quarter. Also the outer ligaments of the knees are subjected to increased tension while the inner bones are subjected to increased compression. A horse with such a conformation may well suffer from interference and be predisposed to stumbling. If, on the other hand, the knee and fetlock are deviated medially (arched inwards) as in diagram C, while the foot retains its regular position in relation to the vertical axis, the horse is 'outbow- footed' or 'crooked-Iegged'. A very similar conformation is shown in diagram D where the knee alone is arched inwards the' ox-kneed' or' knock-kneed' conformation. Both of these irregularities depicted in diagrams C and D throw unusual stresses on the lower part of the limb, especially the inner ligaments of the knee and fetlock whilst standing normally. During movement the lower part of the limb is displaced outwards and an ungainly and unsteady mode of progression results ('dishing' or 'paddling'). When the limb as a whole is displaced in relation to the vertical axis two major types of conformation are recognized. In diagram E the limb as a whole is placed lateral to the axis, the hoofs are well spaced apart and the horse is 'too open in front'. In diagram F the limb is deviated medial to the axis, the hoofs are close together and the horse is 'closed in front'. A horse too open in front may be due to a large development of breast, ribs and brisket, the limb still being more or less vertical. In such a situation this conformation will render the horse that much more stable, although it may detract from speed. If, on the other hand, it is due to underdevelopment of the chest muscles, the limbs will deviate outwards from a narrow chest above (both legs 'coming out of the same hole') the horse may be lacking in wind, and the feet will wear and be subjected to unusual stress similar to the ox-kneed or outbow-footed horse (diagrams C and D). The medial quarters will be worn more and the wall may be predisposed to crack and the sole to be bruised. A horse closed in front may also be due to the two above-mentioned situations either excess of muscle development or its lack. How- ever, the closeness of the lower parts of the limbs means that the animal has a decreased base of support leading to instability and a tendency to interfere or to exhibit cutting.
For the hindlimb the axis which is used is a vertical line dropped from the tuber ischii (point of the buttock). In diagram G this vertical axis passes down through the centre of the hock, hindcannon, fetlock, and foot. With such a limb position the space between the two feet is about equal to the width of one hoof from quarter to quarter. This regular stance may be modified in several different ways. In diagram H the lower part of the limb from hock down is displaced inward of the vertical axis and the horse is' closed-behind'. It is generally found in horses with narrow chests (' closed in front' ), croup and loins; i.e. showing underdevelopment of the body musculature generally. The horse is rendered less stable since the base of support is lessened, and the horse is disposed to interfering and general awkwardness of gait. A similar type of conformation is shown in diagram J where only the hocks are deviated medial to the vertical line, the horse is said to be 'cow-hocked'. This conformation is also generally associated with outbow-footedness as in the illustration. The horse tends to be quite stable but movement is awkward, although not necessarily diminished in speed, and the hindlimbs have a tendency to go wide in a sliding stop. In time strain on the hock may cause bone spavin. Should the hind- limb be displaced lateral to the vertical axis, as in diagram K, the horse is 'too open behind' .As with the forelimbs should the openness be due to excessive muscle development of the trunk then the horse may well be very stable and very powerful. On the other hand, should the situation arise from poor muscle development the limbs will diverge from above downwards and the inner face of the limbs from hock down will be subjected to unnecessary strain. If the hocks are displaced laterally, as in diagram L the horse is 'bow-/egged' behind. Since the hock is somewhat curved it is subjected to unusual stress on the lateral ligaments which are stretched, and the inner bones which are overloaded. The outer quarter of the foot may be subjected to exessive wear relative to the inner quarter .
CONFORMATION OF THE HORSE'S FORELIMBS AND HINDLIMBS
This series of sketches shows some possible variations in conformation of the limbs in relation to the body when the horse is viewed from in front (diagrams A-F), and from behind (diagrams G-L). For the forelimb the axis which is used for comparative purposes is a vertical line dropped from the point of the shoulder . In diagram A this vertical axis passes down more or less through the centre of the knee, cannon, fetlock, and foot. With such a limb position the space between the two feet is about equal to the width of one foot from quarter to quarter. This regular stance may be modified in several ways. In diagram B the two hoofs con- verge and the condition is known as, cross-footed in front' or simply' pigeon- toed'. Should the knee also be arched outwards the horse is 'bow-legged', but such a conformation tends to be rare. This type of conformation produces an unequal contact of the hoof with the ground and a consequent increase in wear of the lateral quarter and decrease of the medial quarter. Also the outer ligaments of the knees are subjected to increased tension while the inner bones are subjected to increased compression. A horse with such a conformation may well suffer from interference and be predisposed to stumbling. If, on the other hand, the knee and fetlock are deviated medially (arched inwards) as in diagram C, while the foot retains its regular position in relation to the vertical axis, the horse is 'outbow- footed' or 'crooked-Iegged'. A very similar conformation is shown in diagram D where the knee alone is arched inwards the' ox-kneed' or' knock-kneed' conformation. Both of these irregularities depicted in diagrams C and D throw unusual stresses on the lower part of the limb, especially the inner ligaments of the knee and fetlock whilst standing normally. During movement the lower part of the limb is displaced outwards and an ungainly and unsteady mode of progression results ('dishing' or 'paddling'). When the limb as a whole is displaced in relation to the vertical axis two major types of conformation are recognized. In diagram E the limb as a whole is placed lateral to the axis, the hoofs are well spaced apart and the horse is 'too open in front'. In diagram F the limb is deviated medial to the axis, the hoofs are close together and the horse is 'closed in front'. A horse too open in front may be due to a large development of breast, ribs and brisket, the limb still being more or less vertical. In such a situation this conformation will render the horse that much more stable, although it may detract from speed. If, on the other hand, it is due to underdevelopment of the chest muscles, the limbs will deviate outwards from a narrow chest above (both legs 'coming out of the same hole') the horse may be lacking in wind, and the feet will wear and be subjected to unusual stress similar to the ox-kneed or outbow-footed horse (diagrams C and D). The medial quarters will be worn more and the wall may be predisposed to crack and the sole to be bruised. A horse closed in front may also be due to the two above-mentioned situations either excess of muscle development or its lack. How- ever, the closeness of the lower parts of the limbs means that the animal has a decreased base of support leading to instability and a tendency to interfere or to exhibit cutting.
For the hindlimb the axis which is used is a vertical line dropped from the tuber ischii (point of the buttock). In diagram G this vertical axis passes down through the centre of the hock, hindcannon, fetlock, and foot. With such a limb position the space between the two feet is about equal to the width of one hoof from quarter to quarter. This regular stance may be modified in several different ways. In diagram H the lower part of the limb from hock down is displaced inward of the vertical axis and the horse is' closed-behind'. It is generally found in horses with narrow chests (' closed in front' ), croup and loins; i.e. showing underdevelopment of the body musculature generally. The horse is rendered less stable since the base of support is lessened, and the horse is disposed to interfering and general awkwardness of gait. A similar type of conformation is shown in diagram J where only the hocks are deviated medial to the vertical line, the horse is said to be 'cow-hocked'. This conformation is also generally associated with outbow-footedness as in the illustration. The horse tends to be quite stable but movement is awkward, although not necessarily diminished in speed, and the hindlimbs have a tendency to go wide in a sliding stop. In time strain on the hock may cause bone spavin. Should the hind- limb be displaced lateral to the vertical axis, as in diagram K, the horse is 'too open behind' .As with the forelimbs should the openness be due to excessive muscle development of the trunk then the horse may well be very stable and very powerful. On the other hand, should the situation arise from poor muscle development the limbs will diverge from above downwards and the inner face of the limbs from hock down will be subjected to unnecessary strain. If the hocks are displaced laterally, as in diagram L the horse is 'bow-/egged' behind. Since the hock is somewhat curved it is subjected to unusual stress on the lateral ligaments which are stretched, and the inner bones which are overloaded. The outer quarter of the foot may be subjected to exessive wear relative to the inner quarter .
Horse Anatomy: A pictorial approach to equine structure. Peter C Goody BSc PhD (1983)
After a long and busy weekend, I've checked in and found these updates. I'd rather show (as above) the better way to show and describe alignments.
Stine - I hope you can get a picture of a skeletal structure to help you out The book mentioned is brilliant! Along with Deb Bennett's works and Susan E Harris' works - it was a hard choice on whose work to use. IF you really want to learn about conformation and subsequent movement - go to Deb Bennett's works.
Shoulder angle - should be taken half through length of the scapula (shoulder) rather than the top of the scapula. And its best not to include joints in your bone dimensions
cheers
Stine - I hope you can get a picture of a skeletal structure to help you out
The book mentioned is brilliant! Along with Deb Bennett's works and Susan E Harris' works - it was a hard choice on whose work to use. IF you really want to learn about conformation and subsequent movement - go to Deb Bennett's works.Shoulder angle - should be taken half through length of the scapula (shoulder) rather than the top of the scapula. And its best not to include joints in your bone dimensions
cheers
Hello,
I would like to thank all the experts for their efforts in providing useful information and explanations. It's highly appreciated and helped me a lot more to understand. May I still ask one more question: what consequences do have tight-in knees / joints for the use of a horse? I couldn't find an explanation so far or did I overlook something?
Thanks in advance for any reply.
Best regards,
Dana
I would like to thank all the experts for their efforts in providing useful information and explanations. It's highly appreciated and helped me a lot more to understand. May I still ask one more question: what consequences do have tight-in knees / joints for the use of a horse? I couldn't find an explanation so far or did I overlook something?
Thanks in advance for any reply.
Best regards,
Dana
Oh goodness,
This is definitely something I'm gonna have to stare at for a while. I never claim to be a fantastic judge of conformation (except for the extreme) but thank you so much, Liz, for this education!
This is definitely something I'm gonna have to stare at for a while. I never claim to be a fantastic judge of conformation (except for the extreme) but thank you so much, Liz, for this education!
Leg faults can be seen from the side, the front and the backside.
But we have to see how bad it it is they way the horse is moving. We can see legfaults but the horse has staight strikes and on the other side we have in halter position not to big faults but the way the horse is moving is looking wrongly because a leg is not just what is coming out of the body it starts on the shouldblade and on the hip with all their articles. And just all these angles and proportions make the whole leg and the function of movement.
A horse that shows not straight strikes is the bigger mistake than a horse with a leg fault in halter position.
To explain I will put some drawings for better understanding and people they want to learn.
Christina
But we have to see how bad it it is they way the horse is moving. We can see legfaults but the horse has staight strikes and on the other side we have in halter position not to big faults but the way the horse is moving is looking wrongly because a leg is not just what is coming out of the body it starts on the shouldblade and on the hip with all their articles. And just all these angles and proportions make the whole leg and the function of movement.
A horse that shows not straight strikes is the bigger mistake than a horse with a leg fault in halter position.
To explain I will put some drawings for better understanding and people they want to learn.
Christina
You asked what's the problem is of tied in below the knee:
On the backside of the carpus (knee) there is a bone called Os accessorius. On this bone is fixed the tendon that keeps the fetlock in position. In case of tied in below the knee this fixposition isn't a good and stable one so f.e. break down on the fetlock could happen easier than on normal built Os acessorium.
But here often there could also be an optic error. In case the fetlock is bigger than normal (after inflammation of fetlock, overworking of a sporthorse, sasamoiditis, tendinitis a.s.o.) it looks as if it's tied in but the real problem is on the fetlock = optic error
Christina
On the backside of the carpus (knee) there is a bone called Os accessorius. On this bone is fixed the tendon that keeps the fetlock in position. In case of tied in below the knee this fixposition isn't a good and stable one so f.e. break down on the fetlock could happen easier than on normal built Os acessorium.
But here often there could also be an optic error. In case the fetlock is bigger than normal (after inflammation of fetlock, overworking of a sporthorse, sasamoiditis, tendinitis a.s.o.) it looks as if it's tied in but the real problem is on the fetlock = optic error
Christina
offset knee
fault is bigger when the horse is moving crooked a when the horse is moving straight.
Stress on the medial splintbone, medial carpus, cannon tendons, fetlock.
The frontleg is havyer than backhand but has less muscles. mother nature helped: a lot of muscles are intersected with tendon tissue, function: like a girth this tendon system is carrying the horse body without using muscleenergy - it's one of the parts why a horse can sleep while standing without using energy.
Christina
fault is bigger when the horse is moving crooked a when the horse is moving straight.
Stress on the medial splintbone, medial carpus, cannon tendons, fetlock.
The frontleg is havyer than backhand but has less muscles. mother nature helped: a lot of muscles are intersected with tendon tissue, function: like a girth this tendon system is carrying the horse body without using muscleenergy - it's one of the parts why a horse can sleep while standing without using energy.
Christina
A good example of a horse that a lot of people said had a long back when he did not wasRalvon Pilgram and you spelt it out for me a good length of rain and a sloped shoulder as well as good legth of hip thank you
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