Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Shrinking Gene Pool Of The Arabian
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - ‹bersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
Pages: 1, 2
Jakes
Hello forum

This topic has been discussed, yet it does not seem to me that enough emphasis are being placed on the seriousness of the situation.

With the heavy promotion of certain arabian sire lines worldwide today, our genetic gene pool is rapidly shrinking and may soon reach a point where it may be merely impossible to find horses without certain sire lines in them.

Please note: I am not critizing these sire lines - they may be very good horses, however where will our breed be in say 50 years time if we continue breeding the way we are?

Personally, I think that part of the problem may be that fewer breeders are placing enough emphasis on the pedigree of their horses, but rather opt to breed to whoever is currently 'fashionable' or being promoted the most.

Another consideration is no doubt the fact that the world has become a lot smaller with frozen semen, embrios and the like and sire lines can now reach all corners of the world.

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of a genetic expert on the forum with the regards to the impact this could have on our breed.

As an older and probably 'safe' example within the SE breed, we could use Nazeer. Although he was a sire of unparall quality, what have we lost from other sire lines because they were not utilised the way they should/could have been? How has this affected diversity within the SE breed?

Jakes
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Hi Jakes,

You are very correct... We are breeding ourselves into a box.. Not only is it due to a predominant sire line such as Nazeer. Female lines are dimishing also... When you add linebreeding and incest breeding to the mix it gets to be quite a tangle.

I think as breeders we are going to have to think outside of the box of profitability and try to find good specimens of diminishing bloodlines and continue to breed them. Include as many breedable elements to continue what fragile lines we currently have, because I see the economy may play a role in this scenerio and breeders become tempted by making money or breaking even in the short term to loose big in the end... Tracy
Dave
I have a stallion issue of Arabian Horse World from 1973. Back then, SEs were just becoming popular. There has been a huge change in the bloodlines. Without going through the magazine which is as thick as a phone book, the American sire lines that have declined in numbers are Gulastra, Raffles, and Raseyn. Back then, these were hugely popular lines. I have no idea what dam lines have been lost. There were sons of Hallany Mistanny and Julep advertised in this issue.


We lost a lot of genetic diversity when the market for Arabians collapsed in the 1980s. We may loose more bloodlines in the current economic mess.

Dave
HLM
dear jakes

fad breeding can be deadly. we must concentrate on breeding a functional horse, must look at sire and dam what matches. i saw some fantastic arabians in oman, unbelievable functional and beautiful. also in syria and bahrein and the uae..met some oustanding stud managers, knowing so much. what worries me a bit that there are agents who buy any 2 legged se here, because it is an se, for a few thousand dollars some of these horses are not worth even that..countries like kuwait and saudis could contaminate their good horses with these. these horses then are resold to ignorant buyers for double or triple the amount.

it is sad to say that very,very few good ses are left, often sitting with our smaller breeders who should bring a fair price in my opinion. it would be wise to deal with knowledgable, reputable people here who would never ruin their reputation
exporting junk.they also would recommend ,if they cant fill an order.

nobody has a perfect horse, but it should be rideable at least. our west, center and north still has some good ones. i gladly assist, free of charge, to help where i can.

all take care
hansi biggrin.gif
serenity arabian farms
kay cochran
After reading the scores of winners in halter classes, it is apparent that the legs have not improved. When the fad of having these crocodilian heads goes away we're going to have a bunch of useless horses that you can't do anything with other than look at in a pasture. Or,.... we will have so many different looking Arabs they will look like different breeds. JK
Seglavi
Not to sound a brass horn but has anyone LOOKED at the horses of Treff-Haven in Arkansas? The daughters of their non Nazeer, SE, gorgeous, tall and correct head sire were incredible! These two mares were exhibited in Tulsa at the Al Khamsa Fantasia, they were breath-taking, correct and could they ever move!
Using a fabulous stallion with little or no Nazeer on our intensely bred Nazeer mares is a relatively under utilized avenue to winning in the show ring AND breeding stronger genetic SE's.
Watch the Gleannloch film available from the Pyramid Society, check out the diversity of their stallions (actually do the pedigrees) and try to understand how we can still salvage that blood today, invest it in our herd of heavily Nazeer bred mares worldwide and improve the over all high quality of our SE's. Look at the blood of Antar and Sameh and Sid Abouhom in those stallions, in their mares. Today we see a little Babson used, a little Gharib used, a little Sameh used but for the most part we are rushing headlong into a tight corner with little or no where to turn. Our horses may get prettier, smaller, finer and more delicate. In the end, if we don't plan and execute better, we will have a herd of 13.2 hand exquisite miniatures, ideal for viewing.
Pam Studebaker
Dr Daniel Wigger
My answer is: NO. Due to global exchange of Arabian horses of all kind of breedings, the genetic variety is increasing so that even within a very limited population like SEs a certain outcross is possible.
sgarabians
QUOTE (Dr Daniel Wigger @ Feb 24 2009, 05:34 PM)
My answer is: NO. Due to global exchange of Arabian horses of all kind of breedings, the genetic variety is increasing so that even within a very limited population like SEs a certain outcross is possible.
*



Dan are you answering that as a genetic expert? Sorry not sure what your qualifications are in that regard?

The point Jakes makes is that even WITH the global exchange of stock in the current day - the remaining sire and dam lines in the SE gene pool are of necessity limited and diminishing. (It's also the same in Crabbet lines as well).

It would be interesting to hear of some examples of how genetic VARIETY is increasing in your opinion though - it may bring some more indviduals and lines to the attention of other breeders? Can you share some with us?

thanks in anticipation
David
SE Legacy
I could not agree more and I am a brand new SE breeder who decided to go away from what is fashionable and do what my instincts were screaming -- yes I do have the ever popular Imperial Imdal lines through both a filly I now own,the foals I have due in 2010 via the wonerful Alfano Mystall (Imperial Imdal x Mysteekh [Ibn El Mareekh]) and my 2 foals that are due in 2010 -- but I recognized that these beautiful dished heads and long necks needed a strong athletic body. So...I just purchased a Richter MH son, Richters Shahpnz, to make sure my second generation has head, neck and body! His topline and Shaikh Al Badi influence close up shows in every element on him. He will never win in halter without the giraffe neck, but the mix of the offspring from my Imdal grandson and this wonderful athletic son of Richter MH will be the standard no doubt going forward. Common sense is still an essential tool in breeding, yes? I hope...
SE Legacy
Again -- I reread your post and could not agree more. I am not line breeding my Imdal babies to other very refined, excellent long necks with stallions of the same type -- rather I am mixing in Glennloch and Babson to create a strong horse that will be under saddle. I think they are horses right? Sorry for the sarcasm, but I do not subscribe to the beautiful lawn ornament thinking. They are beautiful because of they are egyptian arabians -- I gues I want it all. Size and athleticism, temperment and beautiy. Uh yea...in that order for me.
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
When you think about the very few common ancestors that Straight Egyptians share, all the wars, disasters and calamities of the middle eastern regions and within 150 years much of the possible diversity is gone... And can never be retrieved...While I very much like the element of Nazeer in our current herd of horses... One of our goals in the beginning was to get an outcross stallion. Due to the overwhelming influence of Nazeer... In the tradition of Gleannlock Farms who imported Ibn Hafiza to use on Morafic daughters, we acquired a Non-Nazeer stallion to use on our heavily linebreed Nazeer mares. He is of the Gamil El Kebir sire line and an Ibn Hafiza grandson out of a Zaghloul daughter. We plan on using him on our PVA Kariim daughter to out cross her heavily linebred pedigree and our two Sugaa daughters which are both of the Gamil El Kebir sire line. We value a riding horse and that is what we are looking to produce...As breeders we should look for those small pockets of outcross anywhere we can find them and use them wisely... Tracy
Treff Haven Arabians
Pam, What can we say? Thank you! for pointing out our program and horses in this respect also, as well as noted on several other threads.

Yes we have appreciated the role and importance of diversity in the SE lines for a very long time, with study specifically in this area for more than 20 yrs. For anyone interested, we tried to share some of our thoughts on the thread "Breeding Fore-sights & Goals" also on this forum.

Even as far back as the 1st EAO stud book in Egypt (1948), important concerns regarding diversity were being considered with Arabian horse breeding and measures taken to protect it. More recently, in the Jan. 2000 Araber Journal (Germany) an article entitled "The Genetic Basis Narrows Dramatically" examined this issue from a detailed study done for a Civil and Public Service exam, the situation was found to be as alarming as we'd recognized it to be.

We're going to be very interested to see the results of the crosses Tracy (Avalondales) and Dave (sgarabians) are working with through using some of the more diversified sirelines in program.
Homer & Tina
calicoarab
Well, there are some of us who have been trying our level best to keep some of these fading sire (and dam!) lines going for quite some time, with of course the understanding that they have to offer more than just a 'rare' pedigree, they also have to be useful animals as well! Most of the people I know of, besides myself & a few close friends, who have endeavored on this rather Quioxtic crusade are small breeders with limited resources, and every foal born is a triumph! But even outside of the SE gene pool, there are many really good families of horses that no longer seem to command the respect that they deserve, and overall, it is a rather depressing picture. Many newcommers are not even aware of, say, what a superior broodmare sire Kimfa was, and I gew up riding many a superb Abu Farwa bred horse, love the Mirage family, and Hanad, Fadjur, however many others, could go on all night! But rather than get sucked in by a Big Name Farms' marketing speel, 'put your kid thru college'. lalala. I have chosen sons and grandsons of Akhtal, Mourad, Anter, Sabeel, and would love the addition of some good ol' Halanny Mistanny, Julep, more *Ibn Hafiza, *Ibn Safinaz. There is a very lovely *Fawzan grandson up in Oregon with only a few SE foals, Awwali, Treff-Havens stallions, the Kents' *Hedarr horses. Ah, such big dreams, such a small bank account!

Sandy
Tous crins
A few of the Treff haven mares, Nagsous daughters

TREFF-HAVEN LEINA 2001 (NAGSOUS X LEILAAH by RUMINAJA MAJED)



TREFF-HAVEN LAKIYA 2003 Mare (NAGSOUS x LEILAAH by RUMINAJA MAJED)


TREFF-HAVEN SAVANA 2003 Bay Mare (NAGSOUS x ALIDANCE by MANSOUR BEY)
Bebah
I would tend to agree with Dr. Wigger. And no David, I probably don't qualify as
a genetic expert either. But for any ,or all of us, that have been breeding SE horses for any length of time, have to be aware of the minuscule gene pool we are dealing with. Every time a breeding takes place within that gene pool the blood becomes more dilute. Our numbers are decreasing, the choices appear to be getting fewer. But we have the finest group of SE horses that have ever graced the planet. And they continue to improve. I think what we are experiencing is a mass exodus of great horses to Europe and the Middle East.
That has escalated dramatically in the past 15 or 16 years. We have been fortunate to have some responsible breeders beg, borrow, lease or buy some of these outstanding Stallions from around the globe. They, in part., will help to expand and strengthen our domestic gene pool. There are far more SE horses in this country and around the world that we will never see in a show ring. That doesn't mean that they're not there. I read recently that, in Europe and the Middle -East, less than 5%of all purebreds, let alone, SE ever enter the show ring. I'm not sure what the numbers are in this country. I would guess, similar. I think what people are concerned with, is that they aren't seeing the large number or outstanding SE Stallions or mares that we used to see at shows.
There aren't as many and many breeders that used to bring them to stallion presentations, sadly, no longer do. I can understand the economics of that. But it is unfortunate for the masses. I know that the SE population, worldwide
is a little better than 3 %. The increase in that number over the past decade or two is it's direct proportion to the drastic decrease in the overall number of Purebreds. But I think as a breed SE are in good shape. There are many excellent mares available. And not all the stallions we may like to have access to are available to us. But there are and will continue to be great
and diverse genetic pedigrees available to us. I would like to see more of them at the EE and at the World Championships. But in this difficult economy
It becomes less and less likely. But that will require a little more effort on our part as students of genetics and use the WWW, and whatever, to make good
breeding decisions. I remain optimistic.
Tous crins
A few of Calico's rare lines

sire line through Akhtal/Amrulla/Sid Abouhom/El Dere
MUSAFIR ALMUBARAK 2008 Stallion (EL MUSAFFIR x AMBER AZIZA by *LANCERS SAHM)




Sire line Anter
SADATS ESPRESSO 2003 Stallion (GLENGLADE SADAT x EH BAHRETTA by MESSAOUD)
Tous crins
a few of Chiron's

sire line through Akhtal/Amrulla/Sid Abouhom/El Dere.
El Musaffir 97 Stallion (*Ibn El Balad x Ca Serra by *Mossul)





Mourad son
ZOHAR Z 2002 Stallion (*ZAYDOON x CA GRAYCENA by *MOSSUL)


sgarabians
So I am wondering ARE there any members who might qualify as the genetic expert that Jakes was looking for for an opinion on the subject then?

Does anyone know of any members of the site that can help shed some light here? It really would be interesting to hear.

I know we will all have our own opinions - have any studies actually been done on the subject?

David
Dr Daniel Wigger
QUOTE (sgarabians @ Feb 24 2009, 11:28 PM)
Dan are you answering that as a genetic expert? Sorry not sure what your qualifications are in that regard?

The point Jakes makes is that even WITH the global exchange of stock in the current day - the remaining sire and dam lines in the SE gene pool are of necessity limited and diminishing. (It's also the same in Crabbet lines as well).
*


I'm not a genetic expert. Sorry to having disturbed the discussion with my unprofessional opinion.

A last remark based on my modest knowledge about the issue. Genetics don't care about sire and mare lines at all. Genes don't know wether they are on top, in the middle or on the bottom of a pedigree. All the cards are mixed again in every meiosis. Only close line- and inbreeding over several generations will result in a substantial reduction of genetic variety.

My answer remains a NO. And I'm pretty sure about it.
Jakes
Dear Dr Wigger

I agree with you that there are about a zillion different outcomes one may get with mating similar horses and you will therefore never truely have two horses that are exactly the same, however (and only IMO)

in a horse, you can only reproduce what is already there within the pedigree. Sometimes that aspect is hidden away, in the third, fourth or even further generations. The point is however, that you cannot produce what is not there.

It is true that certain characteristics (for example a large eye) can come from more that one line of horses or that more than one ancestor could have had that trait, however if no ancestor in the pedigree had that trait (or it is too far removed with the pedigree) that trait cannot be reprodoced within the offspring.

A further problem is also this. Most of the popular sirelines have become popular bacause of their ability to reproduce their qualities within their offspring consistently. They are therefore clasified as being pre-potent. However, because they are such dominant sires, you have an even greater risk of them eleminating the 'good' aspects that other sires may have contributed.

I would be interested to know at what stage a certain trait can safely be considered as being too far removed within a pedigree to be able to reappear again? huh.gif

Jakes
Dr Daniel Wigger
QUOTE (Jakes @ Feb 25 2009, 09:11 AM)
I would be interested to know at what stage a certain trait can safely be considered as being too far removed within a pedigree to be able to reappear again?  huh.gif
*


Nobody can say that for sure. Some traits/genes manage to stay hidden for many generations as can most easily be seen in colour genetics. BUT for practical considerations it is common among horse breeders of all kind of breeds to look for certain traits within the first four generations. A trait bound to one gene that appears in one of 32 ancestors of the 5th generation has a very low chance of 3,125 % to re-occur 5 generations later. This is of course only a simple statistical approach as the trait/gene might be there in additional ancestors of generations prior to the 5th generation or the trait might be bound to several different genes that have to interact. It is also helpful to know if the trait you are looking for is known to be a dominant one or not and if it occurs in correlation to certain additional traits or not.
HLM
well then dr wigger, please tell me how you would outbreed bad flaws, when you can not recocknize them in the pedigree/ancestors, dont know where theycome from?
i have over the past decades seen hundreds, always on ai bred horses.
mental, physical and breeding/health problems.i know i am combated with this issue, and the problems get worse.

one more than ever must look at the horse to determine what is what and what breeds on. to me an ai breed horse pedigree is unpredictable and scares me to death.of course many people breed for a head, instead for a functional, healthy and sound horse. it is easy to put a head on, not that easy to corrects bad flaws.
matter of fact, many are ignorantly intensified.

more education is needed, people go back to the old lines.i often laugh when i read that the old lines are not in style. how come we dont say this about cultures, etc.etc. a flower, a tree, wild animals who mate naturally?
who is brainwashing in such harmful way? who knows more than nature? who thinks they can successfully interfere? the results i see are not good.

we simple have to examine things honestly, carefully and admit when errors are made. or at least listen to us oldies, we might just make sense and want to help.

instead of using ai, one can import some excellent old blood, and have people bring their mares to them, as it was so successfully done in the past.
at least lets think about it, i feel.
just my humble opinion.

take care
hansi biggrin.gif
serenity arabian farms
2mntn
Dr. Wiggers and everyone,

Dr. Wiggers, I appreciate your viewpoints and those of others in the thread. I would like to pursue this further as something has me baffled. That something is this: how is it that the Babson pool is so small, yet the horses remain true to their ancestors (in general)?? Not only that, but it would seem that this trend can be continued indefinately with no ill effects.

We have seen other Asil (SE and not) breeding programs where this is not the case. Instead, these groups begin to loose the traits of their ancestors and become shallow-girthed, or so tied-in and narrow they appear two dimensional. The tendancy to clubby front feet or narrow U-shaped hoofs, longer cannons, upright pasterns and so on.

To what can we ascribe this difference? Is it that the Babson breeders are/were far more selective with the horses they allowed to breed on? This is extremely interesting to me...how it is that so large a group of horses can be so closely related on paper, yet produce so consistently well with no downward spiral to "blithering idiot runts". It's a mystery.

Ray
Seglavi
Ray,
I had the same questions when I first saw some of the Doyle horses. Imagine now, 60 years from it's inception, the program still has only 3 foundation horses and those were closely related. Hope you can come to Oregon to the Doyle Open House August 28th during the Al Khamsa convention at the end of August and see for yourself. It blew my socks off! They are even more tightly bred than the Babsons.
Pam Studebaker
2mntn
QUOTE (Seglavi @ Feb 25 2009, 09:47 AM)
Ray,
I had the same questions when I first saw some of the Doyle horses.  Imagine now, 60 years from it's inception, the program still has only 3 foundation horses and those were closely related.  Hope you can come to Oregon to the Doyle Open House August 28th during the Al Khamsa convention at the end of August and see for yourself.  It blew my socks off! They are even more tightly bred than the Babsons.
Pam Studebaker
*


Hi Pam,

Are you keeping the answer a secret??? laugh.gif

Ray
Tous crins
QUOTE (Dr Daniel Wigger @ Feb 24 2009, 11:05 PM)
I'm not a genetic expert. Sorry to having disturbed the discussion with my unprofessional opinion.

A last remark based on my modest knowledge about the issue. Genetics don't care about sire and mare lines at all. Genes don't know wether they are on top, in the middle or on the bottom of a pedigree. All the cards are mixed again in every meiosis. Only close line- and inbreeding over several generations will result in a substantial reduction of genetic variety.

My answer remains a NO. And I'm pretty sure about it.
*



I think it is mainly the #s of crosses too but when all mail lines go to one horse...
I think they are trying to be low in that horse.

I am amazed too at the Babsons and the Doyles I have always been curious to see them...
That said, I prefer the babsons with Sirecho and the Pritzlaff with Rabana (often).
DemelzaH
I happen to think the maintenance of a variety of sire lines will be important for the future. I've read that very little genetic information is held on the "Y" chromosome... but I struggle to believe this, as if it were true, why are some sire lines so much more dominant than others? For example, I remember Emma Maxwell writing that no matter which sire line her family tried, they kept going back to the Nazeer line. It seems to be more difficult to maintain herd-sire quality stallions of the other male lines, even when the rest of the pedigree is similar... at least within SE breeding. There must be something in it? Or is it just the marketing?
2mntn
Hi Demelza,

I've noticed the RAS/EAO breeding seemed to favor Nazeer as the sire line, Rabdan in the dam line. Maybe it's just a function of what they "had on hand".
I guess if I had a choice, I would follow suit and have the non-Nazeer sire line females to go with Nazeer line males.

Ray
Tous crins
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 25 2009, 09:27 AM)
Hi Demelza,

I've noticed the RAS/EAO breeding seemed to favor Nazeer as the sire line, Rabdan in the dam line.  Maybe it's just a function of what they "had on hand".
I guess if I had a choice, I would follow suit and have the non-Nazeer sire line females to go with Nazeer line males. 
 
Ray
*



Sure path to remove the low Nazeer pool.
2mntn
How's that, Christine? In order for me to get non-Nazeer sire in females, somebody has to have them, right? To be sure, very few remain who are maintaining these outcross pools.

When you consider the breeding practices of the EAO, and then examine the imports, we just don't have many choices - at least on paper. The Davenports and the Babsons tell us we may not need all that many choices - on paper. Maybe.

Ray
Tous crins
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 25 2009, 10:03 AM)
How's that, Christine?† In order for me to get non-Nazeer sire in females, somebody has to have them, right?† To be sure, very few remain who are maintaining these outcross pools.†

When you consider the breeding practices of the EAO, and then examine the imports, we just don't have many choices - at least on paper.† The Davenports and the Babsons tell us we may not need all that many choices - on paper.† Maybe.

Ray
*



Well you said it Ray, there are very few of those and if you cross them on more Nazeer, there will be even less in the next generation. Low nazeer stallion on high Nazeer mares is different, but then if you want a Nazeer male line...

Then there are always the generations before Nazeer, who of course have Nazeer's ancestors...

I am just observing, it is interesting to see all bloodlines and am not a preservationist myself but understand the need. I like your "Maybe". The Davenports and I am sure Babsons have created their own mini outcrosses with careful long term planning within the group too.

Christine

PS. forgot to say Ray that the Davenports as a pure group was almost lost and probably would be if it wasn't for the Craver and a few others as most mares had been crossed to non Davenport stallions.
Jakes
What about the EAO themselves? Surely they must be able to provide some outcross blood for closely Nazeer bred horses??

Or are people not considering them because they do not conform to the modern day description of a good arabian horse?? Please don't cursify me here, I have never been there, so do not know if they have a lot of none Nazeer bred horses at all! unsure.gif

The question considering sire-lines remains though. If you have 2 sires, the one will likely sire you offspring that will do well at shows, the other will sire a good horse (conformation wise) but not necessarily a show horse - but has a much rarer pedigree. Which would you choose?

I think in modern day breeding, most people would not give it a second thought and opt for the sire that is more likely to sire a show winner.
JoeFerriss
QUOTE (Jakes @ Feb 25 2009, 07:39 PM)
What about the EAO themselves? Surely they must be able to provide some outcross blood for closely Nazeer bred horses??

Or are people not considering them because they do not conform to the modern day description of a good arabian horse?? Please don't cursify me here, I have never been there, so do not know if they have a lot of none Nazeer bred horses at all!  :unsure:

The question considering sire-lines remains though. If you have 2 sires, the one will likely sire you offspring that will do well at shows, the other will sire a good horse (conformation wise) but not necessarily a show horse - but has a much rarer pedigree. Which would you choose?

I think in modern day breeding, most people would not give it a second thought and opt for the sire that is more likely to sire a show winner.
*


For interest go to the EAO website: http://www.elzahraa-stud.org.eg/
and take a look at some of the pedigrees of their current breeding. It appears that Nazeer was kept in balance with other influences generally. One of my favorite EAO stallions from the past that was a beautiful horse and whose pedigree was useful on the relative outcross is the stallion Akhtal, 1968 grey by (Amrulla x Hagir). I have attached his pedigree here for interest. He has only one line to Nazeer and his sire line is to El Deree. He has 3 outcross desert bred stallions in his pedigree, El Deree, Nabras, and Saadoun. Ibn Rabdan and Kazmeyn are the primary repeated staillions, Bint Sabah appears twice as does Bint Radia, both very important mares. Akhtal's sire raced well as did his dam's grandmother Komeira. Judging from some of the beautiful photos at the EAO by Rania Ahmed El Sayed and Nasr Marei on the se.com website it appears that the EAO overall plan is succeeding quite well in producing first class Arabians.

Click to view attachment
2mntn
QUOTE (JoeFerriss @ Feb 25 2009, 01:08 PM)
For interest go to the EAO website: http://www.elzahraa-stud.org.eg/
and take a look at some of the pedigrees of their current breeding. It appears that Nazeer was kept in balance with other influences generally. One of my favorite EAO stallions from the past that was a beautiful horse and whose pedigree was useful on the relative outcross is the stallion Akhtal, 1968 grey by (Amrulla x Hagir). I have attached his pedigree here for interest. He has only one line to Nazeer and his sire line is to El Deree. He has 3 outcross desert bred stallions in his pedigree, El Deree, Nabras, and Saadoun. Ibn Rabdan and Kazmeyn are the primary repeated staillions, Bint Sabah appears twice as does Bint Radia, both very important mares. Akhtal's sire raced well as did his dam's grandmother Komeira. Judging from some of the beautiful photos at the EAO by Rania Ahmed El Sayed and Nasr Marei on the se.com website it appears that the EAO overall plan is succeeding quite well in producing first class Arabians.

Click to view attachment
*


Thanks Joe! But I need an upside down and backwards mirror to get those pedigrees straightened around to how I'm used to seeing them.. cool.gif

Ray
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Hey Ray.....here's the boy to open your gene pool Amr Bin Goudah
Asil colt........Goudah (GadAllah x Ramiah) out of asil Bahraini mare Shuwaimeh Bint Warda. Photos taken when he was a few months old.

Amr is a bit "hairy" after the winter so I dont have uptodate photos but he is coating off well at the moment. Bahrain blood was used in Abbas Pashas breeding programme so why not give it a go. Amr is fantastic, he is a big lad, straight mover, great shoulder and 'butt', lovely disposition, good legs and four very nice big matching hooves (that wouldn't sink in the sand) laugh.gif He has big eyes and unusually for his age a very classic desert 'dry' head, he is is just ten months old. We weaned him off mum at eight months and he is with my good friend Tracey Holland at the moment, she is the lady who rides Goudah. To socialise Amr ready for his riding career we are going to take him to a few little shows in the yearling classes. He is so cute when he is happy and showing off he bounces along with his tail up over his back snorting (that's got to be the Egyptian bit)....but he is a big lad for his age blink.gif I think the hybrid vigour has kicked in ....centuries of compressed Bahrain genes getting together with centuries of compressed Egyptian ones...POW blink.gif blink.gif

Try a bit of Bahraini on your Egyptian girls they'll love it wub.gif it was good enough for Lady Anne Blunt and Abbas Pasha wink.gif
Jenny
Seglavi
Jenny, what a stunning colt!
Pam
sheikhrissan
Oh Jenny

He's lovely. I like his little sickle moon (instead of a star). It also looks a little like a lightning bolt.

He's one to watch out for in a couple of years. Great idea "socialising him" at some shows at that age.

Best wishes
Julia
Jenny Lees
QUOTE (Seglavi @ Feb 25 2009, 10:16 PM)
Jenny, what a stunning colt!
Pam
*


gbfahne.gif Thank you Pam...he has improved over the months...he's made tremendous bone too....even I am surprised by his development and I look for faults in all my babies.

I am very pleased with the Goudah x Bahraini filly Durra Bint Goudah she is also growing into something special.

Oh! Yes I nearly forgot if you add a bit of Crabbet to the Bahraini and Egyptian you get this Navaz Bint Goudah. By SE Goudah out of a half Bahrain half Crabbet mare. Taken when she was a few weeks old.



Jenny
Jenny Lees
gbfahne.gif Julie...come and see him when you can make it. The crescent moon is why we called him Amr..it means a moon.
Jenny
2mntn
Hi Jenny,

Abbas Pasha and Lady Anne wrote their own rule books. I'm stuck with TPS definition...well, I'm not really. wink.gif But anyone who buys in to preserving SE lines is stuck.

I read Dr. Michael Bowling's write up again (it's HERE ). We are stuck already. In applying the Dr.'s findings, the answer to my question regarding the Babsons and Davenports and SE's is this: Their genetic diversity is limited - which is why they produce consistently. They have lost many of the genes from their ancestors, although we can't see that just by looking at them.

What was lost? Nobody really knows, but it is certain to include some ability to adapt to change. I caught part of a program last night - some scientist feller found a gene in another man that turned out to repel the HIV AIDS virus. As it turns out, he was able to prove that this is the same gene that gave a very few people immunity to the "Black Plague". He tested some folks in a small village north of London to prove it. Long story short - it's very easy to loose beneficial genes from a population. And now that breeders are striving to remove SCID and CA and other lethal genes from the population, some other things may be lost along with that - as I don't think it's been determined what other things are associated with those "bad" genes.

Anyway - what a great looking colt! Thanks for the photos. Can't wait to see this guy at 5 years old, or so. cool.gif

Ray
Tenkenva
Jenny.....Cute Filly!
Seglavi
I know the Crabbet/CMK people attending the convention will be very interested in your filly.
If an Asil stallion from Bahrain was introduced into the EAO program, hey everybody would gain, and TPS would accept the blood.
Pam
sheikhrissan
WoW!!

Your filly's a doll as well. I like her spirit!

I am coming. How much notice do you want!!!

My kids are away skiing at the end of March (with school). Are you around then?

Best wishes
Julia
Jenny Lees
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 25 2009, 10:52 PM)
Hi Jenny, HI RAY

Abbas Pasha and Lady Anne wrote their own rule books. WRITE YOURS BE A LEADER NOT A FOLLOWER. MY BAHRAINIS GOT SO MUCH STICK FROM THE FOLLOWERS OVER THE YEARS  (UNSOLICITED OPINIONS FROM SO CALLED EXPERTS) BUT I JUST PLOUGHED MY OWN FURROW. BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER AND EACH TO HIS OWN.

I'm stuck with TPS definition...well, I'm not really.  wink.gif  But anyone who buys in to preserving SE lines is stuck. 

STRAIGHT EGYPTIANS INCLUDE ASIL BAHRAINI BLOOD SO  WHERE'S THE PROBLEM?

I
What was lost?  Nobody really knows, but it is certain to include some ability to adapt to change.  I caught part of a program last night - some scientist feller found a gene in another man that turned out to repel the HIV AIDS virus.  As it turns out, he was able to prove that this is the same gene that gave a very few people immunity to the "Black Plague".  He tested some folks in a small village north of London to prove it. READ SOMEWHERE THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE "IMMUNE?" TO THE BLACK PLAGUE WERE THOSE WHO WORKED AROUND HORSES BECAUSE THE FLEAS ON THE RATS THAT CARRIED THE PLAGUE WOULD NOT GO NEAR THE SMELL OF HORSES DUNG/ URINE/SWEAT. SO THOSE WHO SEEMINGLY HAD  "IMMUNITY" TO THE PLAGUE  ACTUALLY WERE WEARING THE EQUIVALENT OF A MOSSIE/FLEA DETERENT biggrin.gif  Long story short - it's very easy to loose beneficial genes from a population. FOR ALL OF YOU ON STATINS FOR HIGH CHOLESTEROL THERE IS A VILLAGE I THINK IN ITALY CALLED LIMONE THE ONE THING ALL THE VILLAGERS HAVE IN COMMON IS A GENE THAT SEEMS TO ALLOW LONGEVITY THEY ALL LIVE TO NEAR A HUNDRED AND THEY HAVE ALL GOT HIGH CHOLESTEROL LEVELS (BY WHO STANDARDS). . And now that breeders are striving to remove SCID and CA and other lethal genes from the population, some other things may be lost along with that - as I don't think it's been determined what other things are associated with those "bad" genes. 

Anyway - what a great looking colt!  Thanks for the photos.  Can't wait to see this guy at 5 years old, or so.  cool.gif  THANKS RAY WITHOUT WISHING HIS LIFE AWAY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY MINE... ohmy.gif .......I CANT WAIT EITHER.

ALL THE BEST,

JENNY

Ray
*
Treff Haven Arabians
Thread "Line breeding Question" bumped up to consider along with this discussion.
anitae
Ray,
Thanks for posting the link to Bowling's article. It should be mandatory reading for any breeder -- especially those working in a closed gene pool like the SEs.

Jenny,
great to see the boy in more current pics. How 'bout putting him in your suitcase when you come to California?

Dr. Wigger,
So sorry, but must make a small clarification to your earlier post. We cannot "increase" diversity in the SE gene pool (among the worldwide population). A closed gene pool always, over time, loses genes and, therefore, diversity. The only way to increase diversity is to introduce a new horse to the gene pool with different genes. We can change the percentage representation of genes, and we can change the within-group diversity (amount of difference among each animal), but we can't ever increase diversity.

Anita
JacqueB
QUOTE (SE Legacy @ Feb 24 2009, 07:19 PM)
-- yes I do have the ever popular Imperial Imdal lines through both a filly I now own,the foals I have due in 2010 via the wonerful Alfano Mystall (Imperial Imdal x Mysteekh [Ibn El Mareekh]) and my 2 foals that are due in 2010 -- but I recognized that these beautiful dished heads and long necks needed a strong athletic body.

So...I just purchased a Richter MH son, Richters Shahpnz, to make sure my second generation has head, neck and body! His topline and Shaikh Al Badi influence close up shows in every element on him. He will never win in halter without the giraffe neck, but the mix of the offspring from my Imdal grandson and this wonderful athletic son of Richter MH
*

SE Legacy,
I've been mulling over your post for a couple days because I found it so irritating. So I was trying to figure out why and started looking up the pedigrees to dig around trying to uncover what was my subconscious all stirred up about.
So bear with me. I'm new to SE breeding like yourself & I'm excited for you and I've seen some great looking Imperial Imdal horses & Richter MH horses. I've seen Ibn El Mareekh - loved him even as an old horse.
I think the problem I ran into was the putting Imperial Imdal horses in the category less body - all stretch. I'm looking at the pedigree and I see Sameh coming thru the dam of the sire and thru the tail female line - his blood is a place breeders go to for athleticism-strong athletic body.
Then I'm looking at Richter MH and his sire lines are the same as Imdal's, Ansata Ibn Halima.
And then there is this praise for Shaikh Al Bodi and Lisa Lacy made a big point at the 1st National Breeders conference of showing pictures that demonstrated his broad chest - good heart lung capacity. But I can't forget those pictures of him in his twenties with his back fetlocks sitting on the ground - totally straight back legs.
What I saw exciting in Richter Shahpnz was the Sameh son, Ibn Hafiza was in the bottom half of his dam line & of course the tail female was again the Ansata Ibn Halima son, El Hilal.
We'll be excited to see what you grow and see what your breeder's artist brush creates - hopefully you'll get the "body" you want from Shaikh Al Bodi and the good back legs from Sameh and the lovely Arabian type of Ansata Ibn Halima plus the stretch of Morafic!
Jacque
calicoarab
Hey Jenny, what a lovely couple of babies! And to my mind, you & Christine nailed the whole issue right on the head. 'Outcross' and 'hybrid vigor' just are not options when there are no outcross lines available. And while it is true to a degree that all of the ancestors of our 'modern' Egyptians in fact boil down to relatively few horses, that makes keeping our options open even more important. And that includes crossing onto other Asil groups to result in the best possible horse when the blood is needed.

Sandy
Dr Daniel Wigger
QUOTE (anitae @ Feb 26 2009, 03:55 AM)
Dr. Wigger,
So sorry, but must make a small clarification to your earlier post.  We cannot "increase" diversity in the SE gene pool (among the worldwide population). A closed gene pool always, over time, loses genes and, therefore, diversity. The only way to increase diversity is to introduce a new horse to the gene pool with different genes. We can change the percentage representation of genes, and we can change the within-group diversity (amount of difference among each animal), but we can't ever increase diversity.
*


Thank you for the clarification. I meant and should have written that global exchange will increase genetic diversity LOCALLY.
sgarabians
I don't have personal experience with the Babson's - other than having a son of the great mare ROUFAH firmly entrenched in my domestic stock bloodlines. But judging by the photographic material I see now on the web and comparing it with historical photographs of the Babson stud/stock - it appears to my eye that the current Babson stock are not the horses their predecessors were. IMO

Again I state I am only relying on photographic material for this opinion. Would be interested to hear first hand experience.

The Doyle horses still feature more sire lines and therefore diverse genetic sources than the Babson's don't they?

Both are extremely interesting examples of where and how breeding groups with limited gene pools may progress. To my mind it is significant that in neither group has 'type' precluded selection of individuals into breeding programs as it has so much in modern SE breeding.

Regards
David
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.