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ghosny
I am a new comer to the SE industry. Infact,I have not yet purchased my first horse. My observations over the last six months that were spent researching is that new breeders have very little hope of getting honest advise. The industry is in disarray and big breeders keep pulling you in different directions to further their own interests but only a handful really care to help you to a good start. let me explain what I mean by that. Almost four decades after the experts have spoken their words and agreed what horses to be considered straight and what not , still some of the very prominent breeders insist on raising questions about certain horses. Do they give you proof to justify those claims...of course not.It is all economics. They speak as if they are an authority and the tragedy is that they are considered by some as the new authority so people listen and the industry loses. I had finally made up my mind to purchase a stunning filly and days before I did that a group of breeders just back from one of the major shows came running to me pleading that I reconsider since so & so authority had proclaimed this pedigree questionable. Wow i thought to myself....that was close..so I asked them what is wrong with the pedigree. Silence and dumb looks was the response I got . it doesnt matter this guy is influential and knows what he is talkng about one of them said . Then one said ...the great great great.... grand dam is questionable. But she was bred at the EAO I said.....So what ! you know anything could have happened those days said the next guy rolling his eyes as he uttered the words. ..So this is it...this is the irrefutable evidence. The fun part is all those guys had progeny from those lines. Then I realized that not only did this 'so called ' authority discredit this bloodline he also blacklisted two more bloodlines.

So there I was back to the drawing board researching those claims and I have come to one conclusion the industry deserves such self inflicted destruction for it has no direction or unity. Everyone is trying to outdo the next breeder not by producing exceptional individuals but failing to do so by discrediting other successful breeders. There are three bloodlines that have been deemed questionable by this self proclaimed expert not be because he has researched or holds irrefutable evidence but rather as he likes to put it ....it is a matter of personal preference..

Considering how tight the SE gene pool is it is quite dumb to cut your nose to spite your face and considering that it is not factual it is criminal. I have read Mrs. Hecks Questionable Pedigrees book and even if you disagree with her , you have to respect her for researching and presenting her evidence. She did not use innuendos ,she put it in print. Now can this "new age' expert match up to this lady's strength .

Funny though that the bloodlines this expert is advising against have produced world champions year after year. it is tragic that this industry crucifies it's best performers.

I write this because I was so energized and enthusiastic but I have seen many new breeders misguided by such unethical and under handed tactics and end up either selling out or bruised financially. I am definitely going ahead with the purchase of the filly wink.gif while those guys fight among themselves ....Maybe there are some suggestions out there as to how to confront such unfounded assaults on the purity of the limited stock there is of straight egyptians.
G
Robert 1
Hi G,
It is quite simple, you apparently have been doing a lot of research and reading, so now is the time to forum your own opinions and when you find the right choice of a horse for you it will be because you admire the horse not someone else, if the horse you buy isn't bought because it suits you no other horse bought by what others tell you will ever suit you. wink.gif
Enjoying your posting it is well thought out and raises many questions, you are not alone when purchasing your first horse and you are searching for answers but, there is only one that needs to be answered and that is, is the horse I buy for me and if the answer is yes, then what else matters. biggrin.gif wink.gif
Robert
Lysette
Congratulations on your plans to purchase your filly! You are the one who will be caring for and loving the horse, so YOUR opinions are the ones that matter!

I think in light of "questionable" pedigrees, the important thing is for people to learn to do their own research as much as possible. People need to decide for themselves what they want and don't want to see in a pedigree. What is acceptable to you? What qualities do you value?


As in all areas of life different people have different opinions and some people are more vocal about these opinions than others wink.gif

I'm laughing at the fact that one of the people speaking against a particular line had horses of that very line!
ghosny
Thank you Robert and Lysette. I appreciate your encouraging words and definitely will breed what appeals to me. I still think it would be in the interest of the industry that a firm stance is taken It is unfortunate that there is no authority that can rule on such issues to either end this gossip or endorse it just put the whole thing to rest once and for all.There is an idea that may be worth exploring wink.gif Is this only typical of the SE industry G
HLM
dear ghosny

do not be discouraged, i am running across such people too. no matter what evidence one provides, they will not listen, will not examine it.

you speak of three lines in question- (there are more) and i assume it is el deree, hanan and el nasser. there is nothing wrong i could find, these are se/asils. okay is el nasser. there are two of that name, in age 8 years apart, and if someone can not see that its too bad.

a true breeders respects good horses, no matter who bred or owns them and often breeders buy other lines to compliment their own herd. but then those people are breeders of horses and not of dollar bills only.

go ahead and buy what you like an want, put blinkers on.

take care
hansi biggrin.gif
serenity arabian farms
larapintavian
QUOTE (ghosny @ Mar 15 2009, 07:52 AM)
.......... The fun part is all those guys had progeny from those lines. .......


Unfortunately, there are a number of so called "breeders", some actually having bred quite a large number of SEs, who don't know what they're talking about or their own horse's pedigrees beyond the second generation.

I was searching for a mare and wanted a certain SE stallion up close in the pedigree. I received an e-mail from a long time SE person informing me that the stallion I was looking for was not SE, and referred me to a data source record of an American bred horse with the same name as proof (the SE I was looking for was never in N. America, but a number of his SE offspring were imported, including a daughter that I owned). This "breeder/trainer" then went on to inform me that they had a nice mare available that WAS SE that might interest me ...... you guessed it ...... she had the stallion I was looking for about 5 generations back, and the "breeder" was not even aware of it. They got upset with me when I pointed the horse "in question" out in the pedigrees of several horses they owned and regularly bred from.
HLM
yup sharon, that's how it is. how many of even prominent, prmoted breeders can tell you what is in the pedigree, other than a name, knowing little else.

ask a tb breeder about a pdigree, and you will listen to a motor mouth.

take care
hansi biggrin.gif
GNorman
Dear G,

There are groups that have researched all of the known bloodlines that we are breeding today, such as the Pyramid Society, Al Khamsa, Sheykh Obeyd and the Asil Club. Horses being accepted or not accepted by these organizations are at their discretion but as far as I know, very much work has gone into proving or disproving the historic documentations they have access to.

I have been researching the SE bloodlines for many years, and I have run into some of the same problems you have. My very first SE stallion was SE but not accepted by AK and another organization. I loved him so much, and in my eyes he was perfect, but I reluctantly sold him because of the "limits" imposed on his pedigree. His Egyptian Sired get were incredible! But I did not breed him for SE because of the above.

My current SE stallion is SE/AK but contains one bloodline to a mare that is given a "?" on whether she is Blue List or not, even though another researcher has stated the mistakes made when she was "sub-listed". It was not a group that decided this information on this one mare - it was ONE person. I have not and will not let this stop me from breeding him to other SE mares, and it is up to the mare owners to make this decision on their own.

We can research and study until our brain is dizzy, but at the end of the day, what makes us happy is all that matters. Some breeders do what they must do to survive and if they have more money riding on whether they succeed or not, the more they might be tempted to bad mouth other bloodlines. But I do not understand why one would talk down a bloodline they themselves have. Others may merely want to appear important and so they decide that they will exclude many bloodlines and make others question what they are doing. I would call this a "power trip".

I was approached by a buyer a few years ago about one of my SE's. After the buyer inspected the pedigree, they said "no, we cannot have this horse in our pedigrees". So I asked for a LIST of horses they wished to exclude. The list they gave me, would exclude about 90% of the SE horses alive. But they could not provide me with proof of why they did not want them. I wished them much luck in their endeavor rolleyes.gif

It is a downhill slope to badmouth otherwise accepted bloodlines, and we know what "runs downhill". ph34r.gif So many of these "experts" will end up in a corner with no where to go, and as you say, with an already tight gene pool, it will not be good for them.

I came to the conclusion that I had to draw the line and do what made me happy. I am glad to see that you will have what makes you happy as well.

Please do not indict the whole SE family of breeders though. There are many good breeders that do not play those games and although they may choose to select or not include certain bloodlines, it may just be to fulfill their personal preference and not to impose unrealistic restrictions on others.

Gayle
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
G,

You have taken a large step as a breeder and owner... Walking away from the rumor mill and doing what in your gut gives a feeling of satisfaction... Keep studying I am sure Hansi can tell just when you think you know it all there is more to learn... Thanks for sharing the story I thought I was the only one frustrated by the rumor mill... Tracy
Liz Salmon
Well written Gayle. I really do think that to be a successful breeder, one should see as many photos as possible of the ancestors. For this reason a couple of years ago I did some photo pedigrees of horses with photos going back to 1863, before that were lithographs. I did Nazeer, Botswana and Asfour, the others I did were not SE, but often went back to many SEs. It was such fun to do and I learnt a lot too. Of course I couldn't find a photo for every horse in the pedigree, but it was usually 90%. I donated the one on Nazeer to the Pyramid Society. They were in leather bound albums.

The bottom line is that every breeder needs to enjoy looking or riding what he/she is breeding to suit themselves and not be intimidated into breeding horses that do not please them. Unfortunately, so often breeders when selling to a newbie particularly, don't explain enough about the pedigree or conformation for that matter.
GNorman
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Mar 15 2009, 06:23 PM)
Unfortunately, so often breeders when selling to a newbie particularly, don't explain enough about the pedigree or conformation for that matter.
*


My FIRST question to any buyer is 'what are your plans for this horse if you were to buy it?" The last thing I want to do is sell a horse to someone who will be disappointed with it and then see the horse rejected and end up being discarded because the buyer changes their mind, or realize that they are not a good match. Actually, I think I end up talking more people out of buying horses from me, than the other way around. I would rather lease one of my SE's to someone for 30 to 90 days (with option to purchase or return them) to make sure they will be what the buyer needs, than to sell one outright and find that the horse was resold or traded off to an undesirable situation. Well, perhaps that is just the control freak part of me. blink.gif

I always try to educate the buyer as much as they will allow me to. Over the years, I have seen many good horses fall through the cracks. That is very sad.

Gayle
ghosny
Mrs. Heck, thank you for taking the time to post on this thread . You did point one of the "make sure you avoid" names but the other two is news to me so now there are 5 on the list My goodness is there no end to that . You see one of the names you mention is in most of the pedigrees of the horses owned by this lot so naturally it wouldn't be targeted. At least I hope they have this much sense.

Norman and larapentavian thank you as well and it is encouraging to see that there is hope.I still think that legitimate organizations are accountable for what they say and are entitled to their own definitions so do people like Mrs heck who have spent years researching and are willing to present their case in print as I mentioned earlier and suffer the consequences if any . The problem is with those who operate under the radar, so to speak and go out of their way to discredit other breeding programs to further their own agendas. The tragedy is that those are industry leaders and their innuendos that we now consider trivial and unfounded will eventually cause permanent damage unless they are rebuffed and refuted immediatly by other industry leaders. How we do that is the challenge.
G
GNorman
QUOTE (ghosny @ Mar 15 2009, 06:49 PM)
The problem is with those who operate under the radar, so to speak and go out of their way to discredit other breeding programs to further their own agendas. The tragedy is that  those are industry leaders and their innuendos that we now consider trivial and unfounded will eventually cause permanent damage unless they are rebuffed and refuted immediatly by other industry leaders. How we do that is the challenge.
*


Fortunately, these things can come to light via the internet, and forums such as this one. It is a small sandbox and the bullies will eventually be outnumbered if we just stand our ground and keep offering honest information at each opportunity that presents itself to those who ask for it. Each newcomer has equal opportunity to research and learn what is right for them. There will be those who will not make any decisions unless an "industry leader" gives them the okay, but I think those numbers are smaller. The small breeders outnumber the big ones. tongue.gif

Gayle
HLM
dear g
thanks. i did say' there are more'. however each one i list and question, i gave explanations, i.e you cant get a grey from two colored parents, or a bay,grey,black, from two chestnut parents. and you cant turn a horse sold on a copy pedigree, and again on the original into one horse, or a horse given a breeder and such never heard of it, nor recorded it in the country of birth, while supposing sibblings are. you see, there are questions and i documented them.

strangely the above discrepancies were never questioned by some rumor leaders, instead they smeer horses which are okay, and then problem them. you see how ridiculous this is?

there are opinions about menmade labels, not their authenticiy.that also has to be understood, such as exochorda, based on sire and dam given..

take care
hansi biggrin.gif
serenity arabian farms
.
Desert Tag Arabians
Quite honestly, I wouldn't recommend dealing with any seller who feels the need to bad-mouth another person's farm or horse. You should decide what you like (sounds like you've done your homework) and find what you like. If you're having trouble with notable breeders/big farms, go search out the small farms! From my experience, that cutthroat attitude is much less likely found with a small breeder than the big farms.

Nothing makes me want to run away faster than talking to a "know-it-all" and more especially someone who loves to find fault with every horse you mention. I am much more comfortable talking to someone who readily admits their horses faults, is just as open about talking about the good attributes of horses they don't own, and don't get pushy when waiting for a decision.

Angela
kay cochran
ghosny, I have been reading this thread for a while and could not resist giving you my honest opinion. What is it you want from the straight Egyptian? Do you want to sell them for profit? Do you want to show them? It all depends on what is behind your desire for a straight Egyptian. If you want to own them for pleasure because you love horses, especially the Arab and especially the Egyptian because of the history and the asil bloodlines, then that is something I can understand. The Arab you will choose all depends on what you want from the ownership of the Egyptian. There is an Arab for everyone. I choose my horses because I like athletic "pretty" typey horses. I look at the horse first then the pedigree. The horse has to match the pedigree. Read Lady Wentworth's books on the Arab. She is the undeniable expert. Buy the Arab that you like that meets your expectations and a horse that you personally like, if you are unsure have an expert that you trust and get their opinion. You have to live with your choice and love what you choose. JK
Dieter
Dear G,

I have put my responses to your well-written post in blue and hope it is understandable. It is easy to sense your frustration, but maybe I have somehting to offer to encourage or energize you again . . .

QUOTE (ghosny @ Mar 15 2009, 02:52 AM)
I am a new comer to the SE industry. Infact,I have not yet purchased my first horse. My observations over the last six months that were spent researching is that new breeders have very little hope of getting honest advise. The industry is in disarray and big breeders keep pulling you in different directions to further their own interests but only a handful really care to  help you to a good start. let me explain what I mean by that. Almost four decades after the experts have spoken their words and agreed what horses to be considered straight and what not , still some of the very prominent breeders insist on raising questions about certain horses. Do they give you proof  to justify those claims...of course not.It is  all economics. They speak as if they are an authority and the tragedy is that they  are considered by some as the new authority so people listen and the industry loses. I had finally made up my mind to purchase a stunning filly and days before I did that a group of breeders just back from one of the major shows came running to me pleading that I reconsider since so & so authority had proclaimed this pedigree questionable. Wow i thought to myself....that was close..so I asked them what is wrong with the pedigree. Silence and dumb looks was the response I got . it doesnt matter this guy is influential and knows what he is talkng about one of them said . Then one said ...the great great great.... grand dam is questionable. But she was bred at the EAO I said.....So what ! you know anything could have happened those days said the next guy rolling his eyes as he uttered the words. ..So this is it...this is the irrefutable evidence. The fun part is all those guys had progeny from those lines. Then I realized that not only did this 'so called ' authority discredit this bloodline he also blacklisted two more bloodlines.  (re-arranged) Considering how tight the SE gene pool is it is quite dumb to cut your nose to spite your face and considering that it is not factual it is criminal. I have read Mrs. Hecks Questionable Pedigrees book and even if you disagree with her , you  have to respect her for researching and presenting her evidence. She did not use innuendos ,she put it in print. Now can this "new age' expert match up to this lady's strength . 

Funny though that the bloodlines this expert is advising against have produced world champions year after year. it is  tragic that this industry crucifies it's best performers.
Having been a newcomer many years ago, I empathize with all newcomers today  I am willing to share with you what I have learned, give you honest advice and tell you the truth no matter what questions you ask me.  Clearly you have studied pedigrees and no doubt you have an eye for your “ideal” horse, so if the rest of my post is redundant in what you already know, please forgive me.  However, we all have to start somewhere, so for now, I will share the best advice I can give to anyone:  FIRST and FOREMOST learn what a good horse is by studying principles of conformation (parts of a horse) and analysis of conformation (how those parts work).  A good book to buy is Principles of Conformation Analysis by Dr. Deb Bennett, a credible source to study from.  There are many, many enlightening threads on this forum relative to structural attributes which I encourage you to search for and read over and again.  While you are absorbing these principles, practice applying them to live horses as well as photos of those horses to train your eye.  Gather as much historical information on the SE as you are able and study the ancestors using your trained eye down to the smallest detail.  Study what those ancestors have produced, what stallion was bred to what mare and how they produced.  All horses have faults, so this is the ultimate important study so as not to compound those faults within a pedigree thereby setting them into the future or further crippling the SE's survival.  Thus far my advice will be easy to achieve because your eye can SEE and your mind will or has formulated your “ideal” Arabian to what most suits your own preferences and tastes.  However, congenital health defects are not as easily seen and include lavender foal syndrome, juvenile familial epileptic seizure foal syndrome, guttural pouch tympany, wobblers, and who knows what else.  To avoid these, you must rely on the honesty, honor and ethics of an individual which you can often surmise by asking them simple yet very direct questions.  If they hesitate to answer or change the subject without answering or if they get angry that you’ve asked direct questions – I think you would have your answer.  Now since you have formed your eye on what you want in a horse, ensured they are clear of inheritable health defects and have studied ancestors so much that you can recite the pedigree from memory for any horse back to the 6th generation (tic), begin studying the organization’s definition of what constitutes eligible stock.  For Asils it is the Asil Club, for Straight Egyptians in North America it is The Pyramid Society, for Al Khamsa Arabians, it is Al Khamsa, etc. etc. and all their definitions differ slightly, yet some horses fit all definitions.  Once you have chosen the organization you wish to be involved in, then pursue your horse purchase with that definition set firmly in YOUR mind.  It does not matter one bit what anyone else, no matter how powerful or influential, thinks about your choices in a horse if the very organization who established the definition thinks otherwise.  Better these bloodline bashers should think about educating everyone about not furthering congenital defects or crippling faults into the future of the SE who is already at risk of becoming just a head.  Believe me too that if you like a specific horse or bloodlines, there are others out there that will too.  So let me encourage you to chase YOUR dreams, follow YOUR heart, breed YOUR ideal and let the rest of the nonsense flow down the river with the dead fish.
So there I was back to the drawing board researching those claims and I have come to one conclusion the industry deserves such self inflicted destruction for it has no direction or unity. Everyone is trying to outdo the next breeder not by producing exceptional individuals but failing to do so by discrediting other successful breeders. There are three bloodlines that have been deemed questionable by this self proclaimed expert not be because he has researched or holds irrefutable evidence but rather as he likes to put it ....it is a matter of personal preference.(re-arranged) I write this because I was so energized and enthusiastic but I have seen many new breeders misguided by such unethical and under handed tactics and end up either selling out or bruised financially. I am definitely going ahead with the purchase of the filly  wink.gif  while those guys fight among themselves ....Maybe  there are some suggestions out there as to how to confront such unfounded assaults on the purity of the limited stock there is of straight egyptians.
G
Your frustration is understood, many of us have come along similar paths; however, my friend, always remember that there is the heart of the straight Egyptian arabian horse at the foundation of this industry.  That horse, this passion for this horse, is what we must protect as breeders now and of the future.  If you believe that to be true, then you are united with some of the best breeders in the world who have a clear direction and breed with distinction.  All I can say is welcome!
*


Kindest Regards,

Liz Dieter
JEVA Farms LLC
HLM
dear liz dieter

you speak clear true. as a respected breeder and horsewoman, you have never mislead, always give clearcut explanations, help others to learn and understand and dispise as i do charlatans and false promotion.

i think times are changing somewhat again. people are trying to help getting back on track. seminars are more real horse oriented, leaving out glamorized garden ornaments, which cant be worth more than fifty cents per pound on the hoof, unless of course they will prove themselves under saddle.

therefore even appraisals should start to be geared to reality, not pipe dreams or wishful thinking. the latter many desert countries hold in contempt, because they know better. or those who advocate such dead end road and some actually charge for it.

take care
hansi biggrin.gif
serenity arabian farms
Dieter
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 16 2009, 10:28 AM)
dear liz dieter

you speak clear true. as a respected breeder and horsewoman, you have never mislead, always give clearcut explanations, help others to learn and understand and dispise as i do charlatans and false promotion.

i think times are changing somewhat again. people are trying to help getting back on track. seminars are more real horse oriented, leaving out glamorized garden ornaments, which cant be worth more than fifty cents per pound on the hoof, unless of course they will prove themselves under saddle.

therefore even appraisals should start to be geared to reality, not pipe dreams or wishful thinking. the latter many desert countries hold in contempt, because they know  better. or those who advocate such dead end road and some actually charge for it.

take care
hansi biggrin.gif
serenity arabian farms
*
My Dear Hansi, Thank you for your kind words and I would like to say the same about you - having been the single strongest supporter of small breeders for maybe your entire life and the straight Egyptian Arabian Horse forever. smile.gif You've endured everything imaginable from acid tongued personal attacks to wolves in sheeps clothing thieving everything they could from you. Yet here you are today still speaking the truth plainly for all to read and digest. If you have done nothing else for me (and you have done so much more!), you have taught me to stand proud and firm with truth, honor and integrity forever remembering this horse needs us to carry it forward. And with that, I have and will continue to encourage other to do this as well.

Now you know I agree with you wholeheartedly on appraisals as anyone should know that whomever is paying for the appraisal can influence the outcome. There is no objectivity whatsoever in a paid appraisal. I personally believe the only person having the ability to appropriately value their horse (or in-utero foals) in all honesty is the breeder. For those breeders who haven't a clue about the value of their horse and must pay someone else to tell them what that value is, I hope they soon learn for themselves how to arrive at an honest price and show their horses to buyers honestly.

Gotta get back to work wink.gif

Liz
HLM
dear liz dieter

we have experts in our midth who can evaluate accurately. i am thinking of eileen verdieck, steve diamond, maurice wingo, sharon jackson, pauline hughes, dan mcnair, susan mayo, wilma talsma, ken keele, just to mention a few, who know horses personally from decades back. worked with them and forever helped others free of charge.
there are many in the uk, australia and canada who belong in that group.

we just have to remind people of them, and get them to continue helping.

take care
hansi biggrin.gif
serenity arabian farms
ghosny
Thank you all for your honest advice and support. it is heartening to know that in the midst of this pedigree bashing there are people that actually care as I do for the Egyptian horse. There is no doubt that at the end of the day you breed what you like but it is an industry and an expensive undertaking and economics not extravagance plays a definite role in it. My frustrations do not reflect my personal situation .Maybe I can afford to purchase what I please but let us not deceive ourselves ;every breeder will find it necessary at some point to sell a foal or a filly. The relentless assault by some on certain bloodlines will eventually exclude them from the gene pool. This is the crux of the problem and this is the challenge we have to take on to protect our rare resources.

We cannot pretend that it doesn't matter because it does. Mrs Heck you have identified two of the victim bloodlines( Nasralla & Exchorda) as much as i didn't want to bring it up the third is the Kuhaylan Rodan damn line of the amazing Imperial Baarez which I believe is also that of the world famous Imperial Madori. Someone has to speak up and defend those great bloodlines and those great horses to save them from those unjust and unfounded attacks.

I have researched this site ( someone suggested to me that I do) and discovered that the subject has come up before. I have read an interesting and extremely lengthy thread where the basher could not justify his bashing and it seemed at that point that this was the end of that. Unfotunately, It is not the case. the basher is back again active as ever.

Mrs. Liz Dieter , thanks you so much for your invaluable and sound advice and for your kind words . Trust me nothing you said was redundant .

Kay, I have been riding horses for decades mostly warmbloods because of my size sad.gif . But a good horse is a good horse . it doesn't matter what breed it is . I like pretty horses with sound conformation and I got drawn to the egyptian horse because of it's extreme type , history and breeding challenge. The tight gene pool is a a drawback but for me the challenge to breed under those constrains was the attraction. The pedigree bashing was a total shocker. If I were planning to own one or two horses for pleasure riding it would not matter but when you think of committing resources to an endeavor , as I have decided to, then pedigree bashing by big players in the industry is a consideration. Don't get me wrong committing resources does not mean I am in this as a business venture but it is an investment .
What is more shocking to me , is that no one is doing anything about it. In any business or industry or any other breed organization this would not be tolerated or allowed.
HLM
what imperial baarez and imperial madori? have the minds of these people taken a leave of absense? I cant believe what i am reading. there is absolutely nothing wrong with the pedigree of these two great stallions. who on earth would believe such outragous rumors, statements. they truly are uncalled for insults of the highest degree.

i also dont like when the get of thee minstrel and his offspring are under attack. i have seen many, also under saddle, excellent ones. many more never saw a saddle, which is a shame. so lets never take a brush. when i read " no this or that" in a pedigree i instantly realize the ignorance of such folks, having no clue what they are talking about or actually requesting. we all should judge a horse as we see it, also under saddle before we open our mouth. and go by accomplishment. or, lets compete against them under saddle.

hansi rolleyes.gif
serenity arabian farms
ghosny
Mrs. heck if only other prominent breeders like yourself in the se world were as forceful and non yielding as you are in the face of such nonsense those bashers would not have a chance, Thank you again.
GNorman
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 16 2009, 06:36 PM)
what imperial baarez and imperial madori? have the minds of these people taken a leave of absense? I cant believe what i am reading. there is absolutely nothing wrong with the pedigree of these two great stallions.  who on earth would believe such outragous rumors, statements. they truly are uncalled for insults of the highest degree.

i also dont like when the get of thee minstrel and his offspring are under attack. i have seen many, also under saddle, excellent ones. many more never saw a saddle, which is a shame. so lets never take a brush. when i read " no this or that" in a pedigree i instantly realize the ignorance of such folks, having no clue what they are talking about or actually requesting. we all should judge a horse as we see it, also under saddle before we open our mouth. and go by accomplishment. or, lets compete against them under saddle.

hansi rolleyes.gif
serenity arabian farms
*


I generally interpret the "no TM/TD" as a request for these bloodlines being excluded in order to outcross? You can have too much (even of a good) thing. I sold my gorgeous, well built "The Minstril" son some years ago, to a young lady who got him under saddle and he is shown regularly in Class A WP and occasionally in HP, and could be ridden by a 12 year old young lady in spite of the fact that a particular trainer said he was "crazy". Some horses are very smart and sensitive and will not accept abuse, as was his case. I loved his temperament and I do not hear bad things about the temperaments of this bloodline. Had there not been SO MANY SE "TM" sons, I would not have been so willing to part with him at all.

I have run into the "no this or that" buyers and yes it is ignorant. I must agree with you on this when it is not based on valid preferences, such as outcrossing. wacko.gif

What it has come down to, is that you can have a SE bred with no "this or that" - then guess what??? The one you have will not be EXOTIC enough in the head!! I breed for good build with tractable temperaments that are 'pretty'.

These extremist buyers should be buying a piece of art, not living breathing creatures IMO. Most likely the horses they buy, will not be appreciated for what they are in the long run. I think it is more of an "I have something you do not" situation. But that does not mean that some of us should not be breeding for outcross bloodlines as well.

Everything should be done in balance.

Gayle
Seglavi
Dear Gayle,
The tail female line of Imperial Baarez traces to the Babson foundation mare *Maaroufa, long considered a Koheilan Jellabi until mtDNA tests discovered that this line traces to the Seglawiat strain of Ghazieh. As strain names are handed down through the dam line, and in the ME, from the tribes that owned and bred these horses long ago, the designation of strain is sometimes an iffy exercise, yet I use it myself and often.
However, the purity and desireability of this line is certainly not to be impugned. The entire magnificent Maar-Ree group, made famous by the Cruz family, expert breeders by anyone's definition, traces to the same foundation mare. The McCracken family of Texas used *Maaroufa blood with the newer Egyptian imports and produced many glorious horses with it. Today it provides a rare outcross strength within the SE blood. And Imperial Baarez is a mind blower!
Whoever is making these accusations is at once ignorant and should be avoided immediately. If you wish to read more about this tail female line, go to the free on line Roster of www.alkhamsa.org, look up *Maaroufa in the ancestral elements and read the mtDNA research that is posted there.
Pam Studebaker
HLM
hi pam and all

dont i ever agree. one of my great preferences the maaroufa line. remember we have it in ak shah munifeh, bred by jarrel mccracken and bought by me when still at side of his dam in 1988,.producer of multiple endurance champions internationally, and at age 21 doing so well. also his disposition is golden and his get is in many countries.

some of these babson lines are so good and should be considered.
i think some truly great ses were imported and some great foresighted breeders preserved the best.

i always get goose bumps when i see offspring of those great ancestors being so good and beautiful. what a treasure to behold, eh. never can thank the ras/ eao enough for their foresight and breeding skills.

when you visit hug him, he loves it and if you have a carrot follows you home.(traitor biggrin.gif ) being enticed by a carrot, eh, like the rest of my boys.

take care
hansi biggrin.gif
serenity arabian farms
Dieter
The IOHB Mabrouka, bay 1930 (maternal granddam of Shawki x *Morafic) is the component in Madori and Baarez's pedigree found through Ora I think.

In consideration of excluding horses, all one need to do is look at those horses who are Blue List eligible or Sheyk Obeyd or heirloom and see that some greats, like *Morafic or El Dere, are excluded. If in the U.S., indeed around the world, we have organizations devoted to excluding such greats, how can it be ignorant to exclude any horse from private breeding stock (tic)? Even The Pyramid Society excludes Rabdanna I think - the affect of which was known to Richard Pritzlaf.

The definitions and reasons to breed within these closed groups do not make much sense to me (other than a person or a group of persons decided on a definition of what horses to include or exclude - who knows why?) and further narrows an already severely limited genetic pool. This is not something I could advocate or encourage with conviction. At the same time, I adhere to the rules for TPS as a breeder of SEs . . . ohmy.gif

A good SE horse has always been marketable regardless of the splinter groups bent on exclusion in an effort to have a marketing edge. I personally believe it backfires when a thinker, like G, asks direct questions about the rationale behind the exclusion. biggrin.gif Thank God there are people like G out there asking those questions!

Liz
Liz Salmon
When I've questioned those that do not want certain lines, they rarely have an answer except that 'they were told' !! If breeders want to exclude a certain stallion for instance because he throw conformational faults or poor movement that is another situation all together.

We had a popular stallion in the UK that constantly threw a very weak loin and peaky croup, it sometimes took 3 generations to breed it out. Since the UK is very performance orientated, it was a very serious fault IMO. Riding a horse with a short peaky croup often feels like a couple of pistons under the saddle.
Rising Phoenix
Hi ghosny,
This is my motto in life, Dare to... Question conformity, insist on being yourself, believe in yourself, overcome adversity, nuture your spirit & do what you love. Sounds like getting this filly will do just that.

The majority of our problems with this industry is that "many" line bash, give me a break a good horse is a good horse regardless of its lines. We have had every bloodline of "arab" at times in our lives & on the farm plus countless other lines - QH, Appy, Welara ( LOVE them) Shetland, Hackney, Paint, TB, Mini horses Tenn Walker so on. Each one has been different & no horse is "perfect". When the question of certain lines has been put to me I ask Ok you tell me why & most of the time they can't give me an answer. Dieter really summed it up with her comment about the Splinter groups, they do have their place however I do personally question many.

Please keep us posted if you get this gal, I'm really curious about her wink.gif . Take Care, Lisa
Marilee
"splinter groups bent on exclusion in an effort to have a marketing edge"-----

In my most recent (last) visit with Julia Byfield last March, we talked about AK, SO, SE. For many "preservationists" (some people do not like that word), it is about locating, bringing back to breeding health (male or female), finding suitable matches, and trying to replace as much as possible their bloodlines. She and Gary Marx started with only Ansata El Alim as their SE, and non-E mares in the early years, and then Fadjur mares, and then later were able, after many years of research and networking (in the baby years of computers when she did pedigrees longhand) with others all across the Arabian community, to find mares of very specific types, strains, and compatability. Sometimes these mares/stallions did not even have foals for various reasons, as often they do not produce for years or have been used in a non-E program. So it is very much a labor of love, for some, to find and try to continue these rare lines, not for exclusion, but rather INCLUSION or MAINTAINING, not for a marketing edge, but to keep these old lines moving forward as possible.
GNorman
QUOTE (Marilee @ Mar 18 2009, 04:24 PM)
"splinter groups bent on exclusion in an effort to have a marketing edge"-----

In my most recent (last) visit with Julia Byfield last March, we talked about AK, SO, SE. For many "preservationists" (some people do not like that word), it is about locating, bringing back to breeding health (male or female), finding suitable matches, and trying to replace as much as possible their bloodlines. She and Gary Marx started with only Ansata El Alim as their SE, and non-E mares in the early years, and then Fadjur mares, and then later were able, after many years of research and networking (in the baby years of computers when she did pedigrees longhand) with others all across the Arabian community, to find mares of very specific types, strains, and compatability. Sometimes these mares/stallions did not even have foals for various reasons, as often they do not produce for years or have been used in a non-E program. So it is very much a labor of love, for some, to find and try to continue these rare lines, not for exclusion, but rather INCLUSION or MAINTAINING, not for a marketing edge, but to keep these old lines moving forward as possible.
*



I am sooo glad you said this Marilee. I know many "preservation" breeders that are on constant search for precious bloodlines that have fallen through the cracks, so to speak.

The Blue Star breeders are extremely devoted to finding and restoring "lost" breeding stock (even though they are not my cup of tea). They are just one example.

Julia Byfield put together the breeding program at Brandywine Arabian Farm. She located 3 wonderful mares that had either not been bred at all, or were no longer being bred. This breeding program would not exist without her knowledge and dedication, and the willingness of another breeder to change their breeding program to produce what was very quickly disappearing.

I would have to say that the bedu were the first "preservation" breeders. I don't know where the present day Arabian horse would be without THEM? They had reasons for choosing or excluding certain horses and maybe they were not always 100% correct in their reasoning. We were not there so we do not know it all, but we must certainly give them credit for what they did breed on.

Everyone is free to breed what they like. I do not believe that anyone has the right to criticize those who choose to breed certain bloodlines or "not" to breed certain bloodlines. I also believe that no one has the right to tell another what to breed or not to breed.

However: When a bloodline is tainted by unfounded gossip, I can only speculate that the purpose is deliberate and self serving.

To offer to educate is one thing, but to put doubt in another person's mind in order to manipulate them is wrong on every level.

JMO
Gayle
Marilee
Thanks. She really inspired me that this journey is just as much about failures as about successes, but we need to celebrate the TRYING to locate these horses, to help others in their search, just as much as in ours. A horse may not be what we like, but that does not mean another person might not treasure it.
Dieter
QUOTE (Marilee @ Mar 18 2009, 11:24 AM)
(snipped)AK, SO, SE. For many "preservationists" (some people do not like that word), it is about locating, bringing back to breeding health (male or female), finding suitable matches, and trying to replace as much as possible their bloodlines. (snipped)So it is very much a labor of love, for some, to find and try to continue these rare lines, not for exclusion, but rather INCLUSION or MAINTAINING, not for a marketing edge, but to keep these old lines moving forward as possible.
*
Hi Marilee,

I know how much you loved Julia and I understand what you are saying, but think too that we must consider the original post of this thread, i.e. exclusion of certain horses/affect on market of those bloodlines being excluded. This is what my post was responding to. In other words:

I breed SE's to the exclusion of all other groups (with the exception of a golden cross mare). This is my preference and as a private breeder, my right. I include or exclude certain SE horses from my own program for a variety of reasons, which is also my right. Do I think other private breeders (or preservation breeders) also have a right to exclude other horses from their own programs? Absolutely.

However, when these other breeders are mentors to many new breeders or a are a group of many who's doctrine or reason for preservation is based on gossip or rumor about impurities, an overall more marketable horse, or a more authentic horse or other such superfluous reasonings, then I have to say I disagree with that premise. In my opinion, there is not much difference between these two (mentor or group) in that the preservation of what they deem more marketable or more pure or more worthy of carrying forward is simply a matter of spreading a preference geared toward marketing their production while at the same time devaluing those outside that definition. The very word preservation cannot be about inclusion because preservation breeders cannot bring in new blood without losing their hard-earned label, just as SE's cannot bring in Russian blood without the resulting offspring being Egyptian related.

The SE is already quite limited in it's genetic resources and perhaps it is becoming moreso as these groups continue to perpetuate the perception their horses are somehow better or more marketable or more worthy to carry forward and I do, therefore, concur with G that this is not the best manner in which to spread the popularity or health of the SE horse or its community.

For what it's worth.

Liz
GNorman
G wrote: "I write this because I was so energized and enthusiastic but I have seen many new breeders misguided by such unethical and under handed tactics and end up either selling out or bruised financially. I am definitely going ahead with the purchase of the filly wink.gif while those guys fight among themselves ....Maybe there are some suggestions out there as to how to confront such unfounded assaults on the purity of the limited stock there is of straight egyptians."

G was not addressing "splinter groups" The subject is directed toward those that would use underhanded tactics to instill doubt about the "purity" of some of the already accepted ("as pure") bloodlines, not about existing groups that promote preservation.

I am not aware of any such group that can be identified, that publishes the reasons why they are excluding certain bloodlines and that encourage others to do so. If there are such published articles, whereby the research can be validated, I would like to read them.

I may be wrong, but these particular individuals being referred to seem to be functioning via innuendo and rumor.

Rather than confronting those who are set on being unethical, your efforts will better be served by moving on and following your original goal. Trouble makers tend to sap the positive energy right out of those they come into contact with.

There is always more room for education. When I first began buying Arabian horses, I did not know a CMK from an AK. I read (devoured) as much material as I could find and became informed through my own efforts. This is a process that many new to the world of Arabian horses go through.

If someone new comes into the world of Arabians, and they are lucky enough to go directly to the focus on acquiring SE's, they are still subject to the ups and downs that every one of us likely went through to find some light at the end of the tunnel. I say lucky enough, because it took me literally years to find my ideal Arabian horse on my own, and it was the Egyptian Arabian horse. This does not mean that I do not appreciate other bloodlines - I just found the whole package according to my tastes, in the SE.

There are many things to learn about the horses that make up this bloodline group, and I would encourage the newcomers to just keep asking questions, like G has, but I don't know of any means to protect a new breeder from being misguided or misinformed by those who are out there, that thrive on such things. Every thing in life has it's pitfalls.

The way I see it, there is MUCH more public access to information now than ever before, and if someone is tough enough to hang in there through the rough times, they will have a chance to realize (survive) their dream. If not, they will not. This may sound brutal, but I have been bruised and bumped and beaten down many times. It only makes one stronger if they can hang in there. Only each individual can know how much they can take before they give up, and how much they are willing to sacrifice to achieve a goal.

We just have to learn to maneuver through the hills and valleys and hope we can enjoy sitting on the hilltops as much as possible before someone comes along to knock us off laugh.gif


Gayle
kay cochran
ghosny, A lot of help, a lot of opinions, a lot of bloodlines. I shall be redundant and repeat, Look at the horse first! There are some excellent straight Egyptians of All lines. Don't be taken in by gossip or dislike of some lines for no other reason than , "I just don't like it". Choose an animal for their correct conformation,straight legs, proper angulation of shoulder and fetlock. Strong stifles, strong hocks, long forearms are a big plus. Very large eyes are not common, neither are long mitbahs Avery nicely arched neck with proper length is not common. Long hips and smooth croups , not peaked, should complete a very nice picture of a straight Egyptian. Nice big hooves that don't need trimming and wear even is a very good indication of a correct hoof. Good strong even teeth will help an arab live a long life. Type and pretty should be in abundance but not at the detriment of everything else. JK
Liz Salmon
I have thought very long and hard before writing this, because it has bothered me for quite a few years now. Do any of you really realise in the last few years just how many new and very inexperienced breeders are out there, who got drawn into buying and breeding Halter SEs with promises of a great investment, and being ensured that every filly born would sell for a large sum ? Colts were barely mentioned, but mostly considered worthless.

Some of these people had colts every year. Now what ? There were big promises of selling the resulting foals provided the owners bred back to the farms stallions and bred their mares every year. It's not just one or two farms doing this either, I have come across some smaller ones who are trying to control new clients with intimidating practices. One group I help were left hanging by one of these farms going bankrupt a few years ago.

My feeling is that if these people had been guided in the right direction to begin with, we might have some good new talent and dedication in the SE world. Instead we have people who have overbred and are now in a financial bind, as well as being thoroughly disillusioned.

Some wanted to break away and breed to outside stallions, but they were immediately ostracized. These are the people who have been left hanging without any advice of how to continue. Then to add insult to injury, they are now called 'cry babies who breed garden ornaments' !! Is this fair or helpful ? Many of them do read this site, but will certainly never post.

These are the people that I've been trying to guide and help. They need to learn about form to function, taking good photos and videos themselves to keep down costs. Learn to evaluate their own horses. I will sit with some of them for hours at the EE or other shows at the ringside, trying to teach them.

With their horses for sale, I try to encourage them to do it for themselves if possible and advise an e-blast which is more effective and much cheaper than magazine ads. which get lost among all the others. There are some free advertising sites too, but in a very short time your ad has gone to the bottom. Of course I help too if I can.

Can I afford to fly all over the country to help these people at my own expense ? Sadly, I cannot, but we do get groups of people together to split the expenses, so that the airfare usually works out at about $25 or less per horse, and I usually stay with one of the owners.

The promise from the sellers farm will nearly always end in selling their own horses before helping their clients for the most part. Most breeders will sell their horses first that's natural. I have also recommended to some that they donate horses to charitable causes such as the one that Gene Reichardt runs, Universities or 4H kids, so at least they can get a tax right off.

Since I don't have any of my own horses to sell, I can give objective advice and help these new breeders regain confidence and enjoyment, from being depressed and disillusioned. Talaria and Allison Mehta also do a great job in helping these new breeders. We need them and we need them to become knowledgeable and enthusiastic.

I hope everyone with knowledge and experience on this forum can remember how they felt when they knew very little, and how easily we were humiliated because we didn't know. I can remember creeping round a show ground watching people prepare for showing and trying to learn how to braid, as no one would teach me !!
SE Legacy
As a new breeder I can say that Liz's overview of how new SE breeders feel is founded on facts.

I have talked with some very helpful people who really did not have their own agenda or a sale of a breeding or horse to offer as their priority. To those breeders I am very appreciative. Unfortunately, the "other type of breeders" came out of the woodwork to give me their very stringent opionions (which of course included only buying their horses because everyone else's were "garbage"). Their "advice" included not only line bashing but specific horse bashing with such vehemence that I was taken aback initially and I viewed the industry as being rather unprofessional or lacking common business sense. That's unfortunate with an excited, passionate person enters the SE breeding world and that is the initial feeling they are left with.

While I did get drawn into doing business with such a breeder -- I quickly learned that their talk and treatment of others was not spared on me either. At first I was worried that this person would ruin my reputation before I even got started and some pretty awful events transpired, but I had to accept that I can not control the actions or words of someone else and move on. I have, indeed, been afraid to post on this forum as one of the few times I did generated such a flurry of phone calls and horrible lies that it almost "scared me off" -- but I decided that I was not going to be a knowing victim to the lies and intimidation. I know of several small breeders who read the forum and refuse to post due to similar experiences. But if we all quit posting because we are afraid of these types of people -- then they win.

I have to admit that I did not post a question I had just today because I thought I would be viewed as silly. Now that I have admited it -- I am going to post my question as a new topic!
GNorman
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Mar 18 2009, 10:13 PM)
I hope everyone with knowledge and experience on this forum can remember how they felt when they knew very little, and how easily we were humiliated because we didn't know.
*


Boy do I ever! blink.gif On top of that I was the ONLY person within 100 miles of where I lived, who even liked SE's. I was surrounded by Russian and Polish Arabian breeders. If it were not a son of Nariadni, Bask or Aladdinn, it was not even acknowledged.

I have spoken to quite a few new breeders that had already been 'burned' by the situation you are speaking of Liz, and to say they are reluctant to even consider buying any more SE's at all would even be an understatement. It is very sad.

Recently I was contacted about a SE that I was advertising. The young woman had purchased several SE's and was putting together her own breeding program; something she had dreamed of doing for several years. She and her husband were financially secure self employed business owners. She was not looking for 'cheap' horses and wanted the best she could afford, but she is not rich. She has worked hard for what she has. Well educated too. I joked with her that I was very surprised that she had not been recruited by a certain group ...... wink.gif wink.gif . She laughed and said "oh, they tried". She did her homework, knew what she wanted - and that was not it.

I feel that the horses that get caught up in these types of situations are the losers as well. They are often very good horses and also do not deserve the bad reps that they get because they are over marketed and over bred.

Gayle
Liz Salmon
I always think of the old adage 'If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is ' !! The bottom line for me is that I really care about these new breeders and anyone who knows me well knows this to be true. I get accused of all kinds of motives, but I just want people to learn and have the fun and enjoyment with the breed that I've had over the last 48 years. 'Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words cannot hurt me.'
HLM
liz salmon

i wrote to you that i am at you side when it comes to helping our smaller breeders.
you bring up the issue of how it got here today. in my opinion you helped. your post coverered your buddies simeon stud, marion richmon who as of today has not replied to me regardind gp. you praised imperial to high heaven, and with exception of the od horse, really havent done a thing either, other than on halter,
and i never heard you praising your own country man, jane brown beeder of the 100 mile winner in the uae or jane kadri and her breeding accomplishments. nor have i ever heard you mention the excellent herd of peter pond, australia and numerous other aussies having done so well.

but when it came to well financially situated folks, they just could not lose, eh. this one thing which aways bothered me, that political streak, following that money trail,. when i defended dr cruz's syndicated stallions ,the rumors, you instantly smeered me, while i tried to stop rumors. well now, lets see what he can do. sometimes those niceties can fire back.

i am so happy that you finally realized what the artery of our industry is. but please liz, if you now changed to what is left, give us a report and treat it right.
our people do not deserve another disaster. i am so glad that you have buyers for 30 ses for the uae and cant wait to congratulate sellers and buyers.

of course those who made a sale through you will defend you. it's natural.
but i cant see going via kuwaiti agents to make sales in the uae. and i hope the catalogue you prepare is not like the sears catalogue, giving choice of downright prices, appraised by you or someone. will there be dollar 425.00 for 8 months inutero foals out of supposingly dollar 20,000 mares and by an excellent but unknown stallion?.or has such value decreased even more.?

forgive me liz, but no longer can i stand by having our people hurt by anybody.
if only beauty is the prerequisite, or favors played, all sanity stops and the se industry. may be we could tune down the promotion a bit and let true evaluation and appraisal take over. or may be we do it free of charge? for a year maybe?


i have no hard feelings am just angry of what is going on. and you are not the only one.I am just as upset over the ps and its attitude. i guess those who made multi millions are now gone, and our smaller breeders filling the classes are holding the bags.

take care
hansi rolleyes.gif
serenity arabian farms

.
Dieter
Hi Gayle,

To be honest with you I see no difference between how you've described the influential breeder overseas and many preservation groups. They both operate on exclusion based upon preferences derived from someone's "ideal". Shaikh Abdul Aziz Bin Khalid Al Thani was kind enough to write a straightforward post about his preferences and I would not suggest it is based upon rumor or innuendo.

QUOTE
"To all the breeders of Straight Egyptian horses I would herewith like to say a few words after having followed this discussion about Kenz Noor, Imperial Madori and Anter. First of all I like to say how surpriced I am about certain individuals behaviour and expression on this forum! More so as they refer themselves of being friends with me!

Let me make one point clear from the start! Arabian horses, Egyptian Arabian horses are a great passion for me, a hobby in whom I spend countless hours travelling, discussing and studying. But a hobby it is and no more, let it be clear that the way I run my hobby I will never make or desire to make a penny from it to support my own maintenance! As a hobby I have met countless nice and interesting people and made good friends. With some of them I have shared ideas and knowledge as I feel we were on the same track in handling our breeding programs. Over the years I have spend time with the greatest of Egyptian Arabian horse breeders and learn many things from them. I have in this way discovered certain historical uncertainties that I by my own choose do not like to include in my own breeding program.

This choose is mine and mine onlyand any breeder who is dedicated enough to study and devote his time can make his own decisions for his breeding program, so have i with Al Rayyan Farm.

Everybody has his own taste, his own ideas and I cheer that we all have the sensibility to follow our own believes. But do not point fingers at me how I want to run my farm, neither on witch info I like to share with my true friends. It's on them to decide what to do with it, as it was on me before that.

Some of the persons I like to call upon as friends are a Mr. Ponnath for instance who does's not believe in Hanan, nevertheless he spend a great time in my farm as I did in his. Other friends are from the Sheikh Obeyd club who have there believes and wishes in breeding, as well I can spend a good time with them. Only a true breeder in my opinion stay his course and do's what he believes, those who don't know what to do are the ones bringing up the discussion on this public forum!

If I choose to buy certain horses with certain pedigrees its my choose, if others follow me its there choose but you can not say that I'm killing the market for certain individual horses as all I do is to stay my cause as I know what I want and were to go with my program.

That meanwhile I have a group of friends around me, in this discussion referred to as the Kuwaitis and Saudis, is all what somebody as myself can hope for when sharing a hobby. But to none of those I have ever said what they should or should not do, they made there decisions each by there own choose. That they like now the same horses as I do and therefor certain horses with certain pedigrees have reached top prices as they might be desired more is a result I have not aimed for. But if every year there are 300 special Porches build and there are 1500 clients interested then I think its obvious what will happen! That the prices went upis as well against my own benefit, my program is young and needs a regular infusion of fresh blood - blood that I to have to buy just like everybody on todays prices.

Now first about Anter, who ever say that I have something against Anter has clearly no idea what he is talking about! I have this blood in my breeding program via several lines and have absolutely nothing against this stallion, neither his parents. But let me make clear that I will not go out hunting to find his blood, if its there in a horse I like I do not mind him at all. He's just not in my believe a stallion of the same potential like a Nazeer, Morafic, Ibn Halima, Halim Shah, .... who were in my opinion stallions you could build on with more certainty.

About Kenz Noor I have to say that he's a descent stallion with charm. Furthermore he's bred out of a mare I own and like with a nice pedigree (including Anter). I wish his owner and Michael much success with his future.

Kenz Noor's father Imperial Madori is first of all a horse I personally do not care for. His father Imperial Madheen is a stallion I like and some how I hope to incorpurate his blood in my program. Madheens father Messaoud is a nice horse, I saw him last 2 years in excellent health. But I would never double this blood as in Madori's pedigree as I'm scared you would increase the risk of breeding the low set neck with swan like shape and straight shoulder, besides round croups with possibly bad tail sets and carriage, but thats my believe.

Madori's mother is sired by a stallion named Orashan, a horse I sure do not like. Then you find in his pedigree Moniet El Nafis who was a very plain stallion with small eyes like his mother Hoyeda, maybe one of the ugliest Morafic daughters ever lived. Further I don't care for Ora, neither Omera or Shawki who was by far not Morafics best son. Om El Arab I saw in live and I really disliked her.

So you asked to speak up and I hereby clarified why I do not feel for using Madori neither any of his get in the future.

You wanted me to come forward and say it up, now I hope you appriciate my opinion. If certain breeders believe different then by all means please follow or continue following your believes as that is what makes results.

Then it was menthioned that I do not like Madori for a mare called Badria who is in Hanan's pedigree. Now we all know that I can not possibly be so silly to not like Madori for this but then from the other side buy Hanan produce and follow them everywhere and appriciate them a lot. Who ever thinks that I'm that naive certainly proved to be such himself. When I look at a pedigree I do look much further then the first page!!!!

Now I hope we have by this everything cleared up and the Egyptian Arabian horse can happily graze our pastures again and give us wild dreams and passion for the breed for a long time to come. Further I hope that this community restores itself and that certain individuals whom never owned a horse, let stand bred one and have never done more then served and cleaned for a few great breeders like Omar Sakr or Judith Forbis restrain from posting there ideas and bringing this community in a wrong direction, not only what horses concern but also what friendships concern, let my words be clear for this matter.

By a far shot I don't see myself as a breeder that made his accomplishments to this breed; I have a long way to go still. Every year breeding 20-25 foals for close to 20 years now teaches me that. Every year I learn more of how much I still need to learn and need to do. So if I have figured that much out then please do not take the highway and teach those whom are proceeding the matter of what they should do but applause them so that they might continue and keep up the strenght and finances it takes to do so.

Sincerely,

Abdul Aziz Bin Khalid Al Thani / Al Rayyan Farm."


This is a good example of an influential breeder being attracted to a specific group of horses he intends to preserve in his breeding program, wherein all horses go back to a specific set of root horses which ultimately excludes horses that are not within his definition of what is acceptable. In this way, he is indeed just like the splinter groups who perpretuate and promote the same mindset, but under the less bold and inflammatory premise of "preservation". The difference is this breeder demonstrates courage in his convictions, NAMES the horses he excludes unabashedly. Splinter groups meekly withhold excluded names. Instead insisting one must trace every horse within any horse's pedigree back to the groups' defined root horses to ensure each line goes back ONLY to those root horses. That IS based on EXCLUSION. We cannot say out of these 100 SE, we include these 52 in our group, then say that we are not excluding the other 48 because we don't want to name names having fingers pointing at us for poor behavior because we're trying to attract breeders/members/buyers, etc. and don't want/cannot afford the bad press. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, one can call it an eagle, but to me, it is still a duck.

There have been many discussions about this which demonstrate rumor and unnuendo aplenty.

1. Blue-list The Only Pure Ses?, Think again
2. Why Is That?, Hanan or Nazralla
3. Blue-list-label Craze, Tell us why?
4. Asil, Rein ägyptisch, Blue List - Was Ist Was?
5. What Is Asil?

Of course, like you, I am always willing to hear more about the honorable missions of these splinter groups, preferably that is set upon a factual and rational foundation beyond "because so and so liked these 52 horses, created this group to preserve them and because so and so said so". Beyond that, truthfully, the exclusion of horses makes no rational sense to me within this limited genetic pool and I certainly cannot encourage or advocate it (under either the term preservation or exclusion).
Kimberli Nelson
Preservation is very important. Think of it as Conservation, (keeping it the same). Preservation breeders of today are not out there telling people that they have purer horses than other breeders. If they are then they are mistaken and have not studied their history.

All the same, without the foresight of a select few breeders and lovers of the Asil Arabian horse they would have been bred out of existence a long time ago. The Egyptian Arabians that were imported in the USA in the early part of the 19th Century are gone from our gene pool today. Why? Because they were bred to horses that were not of the same breeding. They were out-crossed.

The Conservation movement of today is about exclusion and there is nothing wrong with it. I choose to exclude horses for many reasons. One such reason is that I do not want to add another element into a certain line of horses. Is that wrong? I don't think so. I am working on conserving certain lines that were almost extinct! To be able to work within a framework when breeding is what makes you successful in the breeding shed. If it was just a hodge-podge of horses in a pedigree what would the horse look like and how would it breed? Some well, some not. We know how a hybrid breeds and it is not always good. The animal may be beautiful but breeds on like it was put together by committee with a piece of this and a piece of that. I have been there and done that.

When you talk about the “Splinter” groups you are talking about many many dedicated breeders that have been very successful in maintaining groups of horses that would have otherwise been lost. Is that a bad thing?

The Otts, of the BLUE catalog, once said “If you needed these horses in the past to produce what you have now, what makes you think you will not need them in the future?”

The Straight Egyptian itself was once known as a “Splinter” group within the Arabian breed that told people that the SE was the purest of all Arabians. I am sure all the other Arabians were pretty upset about it at the time. Many still are saying “Crazy Egyptians” and other such nonsense.

Study the horses, learn conformation, learn bloodlines and how they pass traits and choose the horses that, by your eye, are the most beautiful. Choose that which excited you and brings tears of joy to your face each time you look at them. There is good and bad in ALL lines within the SE structure and don't let anyone tell you different. Just being SE does not equate to quality, just being SE does not mean Typey, being SE does not make the horse purer.
Seglavi
Kimberli, that was a top notch posting! You have set your own breeding course in the best tradition of preservation and conservation. I salute you.
Pam Studebaker
Liz Salmon
I agree also. Sometimes I look at a pedigree, particularly some of the non SE's which is such a tangle of different bloodlines, it's impossible to know what the foals would be like. That's the big big problem with fad and fashion breeding.
Dieter
Kimberli,

If you are addressing this post to me, please read the thread from the beginning because so much more has been offered than this one post you chose to reply to. You might see that the originator of the thread was speaking to their concerns over excluding horses by an influential breeder. You may read that I have identified splinter groups as also exclusionary, then you may read that Marilee and Gayle suggested preservation is NOT about exclusion.
QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ Mar 18 2009, 08:31 PM)
(snipped)The Egyptian Arabians that were imported in the USA in the early part of the 19th Century are gone from our gene pool today. Why? Because they were bred to horses that were not of the same breeding. They were out-crossed.

For a long time, I've believed it is impossible to outcross an SE without going outside the SE group.  How does a preservationist horse provide an outcross within the SE genetic pool?  Today, fad breeding does more to eliminate root horses and good horses than any single one thing IMO.

The Conservation movement of today is about exclusion and there is nothing wrong with it. 

Thank you for making my point!  Preservation is about exclusion - .  That in itself may not be wrong, but if it is exclusion in addition to segregation, and/or degradation then it is problematic as the genetics have been withdrawn from the main pool of the SE shrinking the genetic pool even tighter.  In my experience, Sheyk Obeyd horses were so exclusive and precious they were not available to breed to anything other than another Sheyk Obeyd horse.  Today, that is denied as utterly untrue, but I am no liar and it was absolutely true 10 to 20 years ago.  I quit trying to include S.O. horses in my own breeding program directly due to that exclusivity.
 
I choose to exclude horses for many reasons. One such reason is that I do not want to add another element into a certain line of horses. Is that wrong? I don't think so.  I am working on conserving certain lines that were almost extinct!  To be able to work within a framework when breeding is what makes you successful in the breeding shed. If it was just a hodge-podge of horses in a pedigree what would the horse look like and how would it breed?  Some well, some not. We know how a hybrid breeds and it is not always good. The animal may be beautiful but breeds on like it was put together by committee with a piece of this and a piece of that.  I have been there and done that. 

I'm sorry to say this applies to preservation as well as SE horses too, regardless of how inbred they may be.  There are good and not so good horses in every bloodline, in every group, in every splinter group.  Much of any single horse's quality is directly due to the expertise or lack thereof, of the breeder.  That's true.

The Otts, of the BLUE catalog, once said “If you needed these horses in the past to produce what you have now, what makes you think you will not need them in the future?” 
*


And what did Mrs. Ott, clearly a leader in our community, do to her horses in the end?

As I've said on another thread, throughout the SE Community, breeders avoid all sorts of horses based upon their own preferences, perceptions and learned perceptions of what that horse may bring to the future foal. Many excellent horses are thumbed down by individuals and groups like Al Khamsa (the original excluder of El Nasser), Sheyk Obeyd (excludes *Morafic, El Dere), Blue List, Blue Star, Asil, etc. My best mare has El Nasser through Nasralla via her dam, and is double *Morafic through her sire, so I myself, prefer much of what this blood has to offer and she is 100% arabian - just ask her. She has great height (about 15.2), a beautiful head, large dark eye, extra length of neck, excellent motion and a fantastic body. Her ½ brother sold to Saudi Arabia to the Royal Family (HRH Bandar Al Faisul), so there was no discrimination against El Nasser there in spite of the persistence of avoiding this horse in many ME programs. So, in spite of the fact this horse has now been accepted by Al Khamsa, the "suspicions" of purity linger on. Maybe you can tell me if this preservation group's opinion of the past was or is bad for the here and now?

Just like you and I, everyone has preferences. Most importantly, I guarantee you if you like it, there will be many more that like it as well – some even from overseas. So, my best advice to anyone would be to breed the bloodlines that they love and feel passionate about keeping in mind saturation of bloodlines in the market. It is these horses that will bring enthusiasm to them which will be heard in their words and in their description of what they see.
Kimberli Nelson
Yes, in a way I was addressing some of the issues you brought up and I have read all the posts and chose to reply to some of it.. I know what the perception of SOF was 10 and 20 years ago and I worked for over the last 12 years to change that. Your statement was absolutely true back then. The breeders today are more concerned with breeding a quality horse that suits their purpose than they are spouting off about the purest of the pure and all that. Also, the perception for some of the old SOF breeders was "Sell Ours First" and that too has changed for the better I hope. I am sorry that you had to feel the, what I call the BS, of that era. I hope that today, there is more understanding among breeders that all lines are needed and should be used, breeding going both ways.

Using SO horses in programs today can add something missing. It can bring about more type and a sort of hybrid vigor. It's not the same as two different breeds but there is a out-cross of sorts. I am planning on adding new lines to my SO group as I feel that it is time to do so. Many of the horses have too much on one line or another due to inbreeding and we have lost many of the rarest horses such as the Post 58 (non Babson) horses. That is what I am adding back to my group, non Babson post 58 horses that are not SO horses. Please don't think I am an SO snob, although I love many of the SO horses and I love preservation breeding, I also love horses in general and the people who own them.

As for what the Otts did with their horses.... it does not matter, the statement is a valuable today as it was then regardless of who said it.

"For a long time, I've believed it is impossible to outcross an SE without going outside the SE group. How does a preservationist horse provide an outcross within the SE genetic pool? Today, fad breeding does more to eliminate root horses and good horses than any single one thing IMO."

It is very possible to outcross within the SE group of horses, Ansata did it with Halima and the Babsons, it can be done today as well. You have some horse, like your mare, that could be bred to stallions that do not have a Nazeer sireline. There are only a handful left but they are still out there. Try to keep a balance of Nazeer and the other sirelines like Sid Abouhom and Ibn Rabdan(without *Fadl) and see the gene pool increase with lines that are not available everywhere. It is fun to do and the results can be spectacular. Hansi has Mamlouk who has a rare sireline.

Fad breeding is the worst sort of waste of a good horse an dis mostly done by folks just starting out and have not learned enough about breeding. Sad to say, many are taken to the cleaners and will never learn. The question we have to ask ourselves is "Do I breed for the market or do I breed to better the quality of the Arabian in general?"
Seglavi
edited
Pam Studebaker
Dieter
QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ Mar 18 2009, 10:37 PM)
(snipped) I know what the perception of SOF was 10 and 20 years ago and I worked for over the last 12 years to change that.  Your statement was absolutely true back then. The breeders today are more concerned with breeding a quality horse that suits their purpose than they are spouting off about the purest of the pure and all that. Also, the perception for some of the old SOF breeders was "Sell Ours First" and that too has changed for the better I hope.  I am sorry that you had to feel the, what I call the BS, of that era.  I hope that today, there is more understanding among breeders that all lines are needed and should be used, breeding going both ways.

Your work has paid off then.  Thank you, again, Kimberli for confirming the past transgressions of SOF breeders (your honesty on this issue is truly refreshing) and for sharing the current position of some SOF breeders willing to share their horses with mainstream SE breeders.  I will hope, then, for the future.  biggrin.gif 

(snipped)As for what the Otts did with their horses.... it does not matter, the statement is a valuable today as it was then regardless of who said it.

I will agree to disagree with you about Mrs. Ott as I feel very strongly that how those horses met their end at her hand is indicative of the inner workings of the mind of Mrs. Ott.  There is nothing she did that is not colored by that single act, to me.

(snipped)Fad breeding is the worst sort of waste of a good horse an dis mostly done by folks just starting out and have not learned enough about breeding. Sad to say, many are taken to the cleaners and will never learn. The question we have to ask ourselves is "Do I breed for the market or do I breed to better the quality of the Arabian in general?"
*
Agreed entirely. First and foremost for a breeder . . . am I leaving the breed better than I found it or, at least, as good. This altruistic goal, not money, means success.
ghosny
OMG Ms Dieter why would you bring up such a post . What good does that do. This is sugar coated line bashing What he said in the forum and what is being said off record are entirely different . Unfortunately this is not a good example and it only proves that people can go to great lengths to absolve themselves from their own words even if it means attacking other horses and ones they never even laid an eye on.

I cant believe that insulting other people and criticizing horses in this manner is considered courageous. I wonder if a beginner like myself would pick on a horse owned by one of those big breeders . Would it be considered straight forward and courageous. I don't think so.

The courageous thing to say is" though there is no doubt that this individual is straight egyptian with no question about his pedigree yet I will not use him in my breeding program because so and so......then this is being an industry leader and straightforward....and other people can agree or disagree with his breeding philosophy.....

I think I have more respect for the splinter groups . I dont know much about those groups at this stage but they are entitled to their definition of purity. They exclude what they want and include the individuals who according to their definitions do not meet certain criteria. Nothing wrong with that . You can agree or disagree. You can breed their way or not
.
The pyramid society itself is a splinter group within the context of the arabian industry with well defined definitions. Why is it OK for the Pyramid Society and not for the others. People like Mrs. Heck don't make unfounded claims . She researches and is not afraid to publish her findings. You can disagree or agree. She does not sugar coat it . She may make people nervous but that's Ok. I have seen many posts where an argument has ensued about a certain bloodline. They are heated but intelligent.

The problem is with "the courageous and straight forward " people . Those people that I described as operating under the radar. They accept the definition of the straight egyptian as the backbone of their breeding programs but select to exclude certain individuals based on pedigree issues and not as they claim in their posts. If you can get them to unequivocally make a statement about the purity of the excluded bloodlines then......and only then can they be applauded for their courage and insight into selective breeding. Even if they claim those bloodlines are not pure according to their research and share with us their findings then we will applaud for being diligent and straight forwardness. You may say why would they need to make such statements and the answer is simple. They are industry leaders and owe it to all of us . If they prefer not to then maybe we should stop taking them seriously.

Thank you all for posting to this thread . it has been quite useful. I also thank those that have communicated privately with me for taking the time to give advise ....

G
Dieter
Dear G,

Yes, I believe it was a courageous post just as yours is written here and I respect you and Sh. A. Aziz for what both of you have written. It does not mean that I agree with either of you, just that I appreciate the courage it takes to post opinions as they are no longer secret and one becomes accountable for them.

I believe that everyone is entitled to their honest opinion, even you. When I read such a post as Sh. A. Aziz's on an open forum (that post was found in the Kenz Noor Unveiled thread), readers expect it to be an honest opinion, one that will not necessarily be shared with equal reverence as the sugar coated statements so often made that every horse is wonderful and great no matter what faults the horse has or what congenital diseases it passes into the genetic pool. If we want honesty, then we must be able to tolerate other's opinions without getting our feathers ruffled. You stated in your very first post it is difficult for a newcomer to get good advice and IMO, the sugar coated every horse is great no matter what type statements, which are more acceptable, are one of the reasons why. I prefer to see honest opinions regardless that they may not be received well by another reader. At least its open and honest.

As you had not mentioned Sh. A. Aziz's name in any of your posts, I could not know, without a doubt, you were referencing him. I also can not know what he states to other breeders in private, only those he makes these statements to are privy to such private conversations.
QUOTE (ghosny @ Mar 19 2009, 01:17 AM)
OMG Ms Dieter why would you bring up such a post . What good does that do. This is sugar coated line bashing What he said in the forum and what is being said off record are entirely different . Unfortunately this is not a good example and it only proves that people can go to great lengths to absolve themselves from their own words even if it means attacking other horses and ones they never even laid an eye on.

I cant believe that insulting other people and criticizing horses in this manner is considered courageous. I wonder if a beginner like myself would pick on a horse owned by one of those big breeders . Would it be considered straight forward and courageous. I don't think so.

You might know by now that I would appreciate your honest opinion.

The courageous thing to say is" though there is no doubt that this individual is  straight egyptian with no question about his pedigree yet I will not use him in my breeding program because so and so......then this is being an industry leader and straightforward....and other people can agree or disagree  with his breeding philosophy.....

I think I have more respect for the splinter groups . I dont know much about those groups at this stage but they are entitled to their definition of purity. They exclude what they want and include the individuals who according to their definitions do not meet certain criteria. Nothing wrong with that . You can agree or disagree. You can breed their way or not

I agree and this is much what I said to you in my very first post to you.  However, it is important to keep in mind El Nasser was first not accepted by Al Khamsa due to a suspected impurity or other qualifications issue.  The fact that this horse is now accepted by Al Khamsa, cannot relieve the persistent claim that he is to be avoided for those same reasons.  Do you think this splinter group has anything to do with that?  For years, Hansi struggled to set the record straight, but they would not listen.  Perhaps in a few years, Sh. A. Aziz will change his opinion as well - only God knows.
.
The pyramid society itself is a splinter group within the context of  the arabian industry with well defined definitions.  Why is it OK for the Pyramid Society and not for the others. People like Mrs. Heck don't make unfounded claims . She researches and is not afraid to publish her findings. You can disagree or agree. She does not sugar coat it . She may make people nervous but that's Ok. I have seen many posts where an argument has ensued about a certain bloodline. They are heated but intelligent.

The problem is with "the courageous and straight forward " people . Those people that I described as operating under the radar. They accept the definition of the straight egyptian as the backbone of their breeding programs but select to exclude certain individuals based on pedigree issues and not as they claim in their posts. If you can get them to unequivocally make a statement about the purity of the excluded bloodlines then......and only then can they be applauded for their courage and insight into selective breeding. Even if they claim those bloodlines are not pure according to their research and share with us their findings then we will applaud for being diligent and straight forwardness. You may say why would they need to make such statements and the answer is simple. They are industry leaders and owe it to all of us . If they prefer not to then maybe we should stop taking them seriously.

Every breeder has opinions and preferences, yet most operate under the radar.  I, myself, avoid certain bloodlines, but don't have the courage to post them here because for sure I would be accused of bloodline bashing. 

Thank you all for posting to this thread . it has been quite useful. I also thank those that have communicated privately with me for taking the time to give advise ....

G
*

I thank you for posting to tackle this delicate subject, G and I wish you the best with your beautiful filly and in your future.

Kind Regards,

Liz Dieter
JEVA Farms LLC

ps. I do have the courage to sign my name. Perhaps you will muster the courage to sign yours as well.
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