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AL DHAFRA
dear members i was wondering if some can help me finding answer to my Q?

is EXOCHORDA (1924) by AIGLON out of LEILA arabian mare ? if yes is she an SE mare?


all the best

Al Dhafra Stud
Razgold
Yes to both questions. She is in my mare's pedigree and my mare is SE.

Sue.
Liz Salmon
Definitely Yes to both questions !! A great deal of research was done to prove that she is in fact a SE.
1rider
There still is no proof on rthe SE just marginal circumstantial evidence, but she is excepted SE so guess thats what counts. Never been a question if she was a pure bred just the SE part ...Ken
carolmaginn
In my opinion, there was clear proof provided for all to see by Marilyn Lang and Caryn Rogosky during their trip to Cairo two years ago when they went to the archives at the Cairo jockey club through the assistance of Mr. Mohammad Amin of Al Amin Stud in Cairo - a breeder with the utmost integrity and generosity along with Marilyn and Caryn.

There was some discussion on this forum about one year ago in which an actual document was produced which proved the fact that Exochorda is a PURE SE Arabian. After seeing all of the evidence presented from both sides of the debate - it was evident to me that Exochorda was indeed pure. I think if you did a "search" you could see all the evidence from both perspectives and decide for yourself.

Many good horses and decendents of these horses have had their reputations destroyed by people who passed along what is in my opinion false information.

The tarnishing of some SE lines has caused harm to some of the greatest SE horses of our time, not just Exochorda, but also The Minstril, Orashan and honestly in my opinion some of the most beautiful lines which when combined with other lines allow breeders to produce both beauty and athleticism. Although I would argue that Orashan was one of the more atheletic horses of our time. I am sure that the people who are out there repeating this nonsense truly believe that they are right and are trying to keep the breed pure. I know they are not purposely trying to cause harm, its just that they often form their beliefs based on what others have said without really doing the work and research required to prove or disprove the truth of the hearsay they are sharing with others. Its much like the way that gossip is passed along. Even if it is eventually found to be untrue - reputations can be permanently harmed. I admit that I myself have passed along things I had been told to be true by those I most admired and respected. Eventually over time I've realized that I was wrong, and how important to use my own brain and not just follow others. Its important to question everyone and everything and not just follow blindly.

To all the new breeders out there - may you have the courage to pave your own path and take a few risks and breed what makes your heart sing - not just what others tell you is "good" or "bad". Listen to your heart for in the end I feel that this is what it takes to feel truly satisfied and fulfilled.

Carol
1rider
Yes Carol people shouldnt fallow blindly! and there was no new document found.. the documents are all the ones that have been around since the beginning of all this... some dates but still nothing saying she was born here on this date bred by this person..... there was dates that helped narrow some things down.. maybe you should go back and read it..... And i just want the truth also. That s why i questions everything also.. and never have i heard anyone put the horses down themselves or say they are not pure bred Arabians..Just the SE label is the question...many of my best horses have this line.....Ken
carolmaginn
Sure Ken,

I agree with you - no one ever put the actual horse's down, yet the horses's reputations have been tarnished due to people making claims that horse's are not SE even it that actual individual horse was top quality. If you are an SE breeder and someone makes a claim that a horse is not SE that ruins the horse's reputation because some potential buyers will be afraid to have any horses with "questionable lines" in the pedigree. In my opinion, when a top horse is overlooked simply because someone heard from some well known breeder that a horse is not pure. I just find that case to be really unfortunate.

I have had people in some countries who tell me that they do not want any horses with certain horses in the pedigree. They give me a long list of unacceptable lines and horses. When I have asked why they do not like these lines they say it is because "many people over here don't want these lines". They don't know or care why others don't want those lines, the fact is that since there is such prejudice in their community, they don't want to have to deal with limiting their market for future foals.

I don't understand why it is that those who claimed that those lines were not SE were never required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt - their words and claims were enough for others to just follow. And yet the burden of actual real proof was instead placed on those who had to defend these lines to the people who made these claims. In our legal system - the burden of proof is always placed on the prosecutor not on the defense - so why in this case do we not require proof beyond reasonable doubt from those who claim the horses to be impure? In fact I had jury duty last month and the defense never even testified because it was not the defense's job to defend, the burden of proof lies with the accuser (or in this case our District Attorney who was prosecuting that case).

Also I have always wondered - with all the SE horses that have been bred from the beginning of time - what are the odds that a non SE horse never got into the gene pool? I mean I have the greatest respect for the Bedouins, but as they are only human, how do we know that one night a stallion from some non pure herd might have made his way over to some poor Bedoun's mare band? We never question if this might have happened, so why is it that only particular lines are questioned so vigorously? Why do we not ask for proof for every line that is not well documented? This has happened to many people I have heard of - the stallion gets out and breeds a mare accidently.

I agree with you that many of the best horses do have this line - many of my favorites....

So as for what is the truth in regard to Exochorda, I do not feel that those who question the pedigree's purity have produced enough proof to prove impurity beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore she should be considered pure. And I feel that those who have been forced to defend the pedigree have done more to prove purity then those who cast the questions.

One more thing I often think about - I believe it was Joe Ferriss who proved the purity of the Minstril - is that right? I can't recall all the details - maybe I need to go read about that too, but I seem to remember him somehow proving that *Bahila was indeed pure (Minstril's dam). Despite this proof - how many serious breeders who believed this line to be impure for many years changed their minds just because one day Joe found some very good evidence and in fact proved this? My guess is that not many really changed their minds. So this is why I say that even if the proof was staring at those who question these lines right in the face - they couldn't erase their feelings towards these lines after so many years of prejudice. A reputation is easy to destroy and even if exhonorated with actual hard proof it is not easy to repair.

Do you remember the guy who was running for office in California who they accused of murdering Chaundra Levy - one of his interns? His career was destroyed, his wife left him I think, even despite that years later they eventually found the real killer and he was proclaimed innocent.

Many people called Galileo insane for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. Now we can both look back and see how ignorant they really were. Unfortunately, there will always be bigots, who out of fear hurt people who try things that are different from what they would do. But it is those who open their minds, who have the courage to be different, who actually make a difference in society and in breeding programs...

I appreciate all that you have said Ken - totally. In reality, what I have posted is just me sharing my thoughts on this topic for once, as I do not think I ever posted about this before - even on that old Exochorda thread from last year, even though one of my best friends was vigorously defending Exochorda... I was busy and I wish I had said this sooner.

Many thanks for your respectful dialog. I do appreciate this discussion with you and others.

Carol

QUOTE (1rider @ May 9 2009, 10:07 PM)
Yes Carol people shouldnt fallow blindly! and there was no new  document found.. the documents are all the ones that have been around since the beginning of all this...  some dates but still nothing saying she was born here on this date bred by this person..... there was dates that helped narrow some things down.. maybe you should go back and read it..... And i just want the truth also. That s why i questions everything also.. and never have i heard anyone put the horses down themselves or say they are not pure bred Arabians..Just the SE label is the question...many of my best horses have this line.....Ken
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Tous crins
QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 9 2009, 08:12 PM)
Sure Ken,

  I agree with you - no one ever put the actual horse's down, yet the horses's reputations have been tarnished due to people making claims that horse's are not SE even it that actual individual horse was top quality.  If you are an SE breeder and someone makes a claim that a horse is not SE that ruins the horse's reputation because some potential buyers will be afraid to have any horses with "questionable lines" in the pedigree.    In my opinion, when a top horse is overlooked simply because someone heard from some well known breeder that a horse is not pure.  I just find that case to be really unfortunate.

I have had people in some countries who tell me that they do not want any horses with certain horses in the pedigree.  They give me a long list of unacceptable lines and horses.  When I have asked why they do not like these lines they say it is because "many people over here don't want these lines".  They don't know or care why others don't want those lines, the fact is that since there is such prejudice in their community, they don't want to have to deal with limiting their market for future foals. 

I don't understand why it is that those who claimed that those lines were not SE were never required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt - their words and claims were enough for others to just follow.  And yet the burden of actual real proof was instead placed on those who had to defend these lines to the people who made these claims.  In our legal system - the burden of proof is always placed on the prosecutor not on the defense - so why in this case do we not require proof beyond reasonable doubt from those who claim the horses to be impure?  In fact I had jury duty last month and the defense never even testified because it was not the defense's job to defend, the burden of proof lies with the accuser (or in this case our District Attorney who was prosecuting that case).

Also I have always wondered - with all the SE horses that have been bred from the beginning of time - what are the odds that a non SE horse never got into the gene pool?  I mean I have the greatest respect for the Bedouins, but as they are only human, how do we know that one night a stallion from some non pure herd might have made his way over to some poor Bedoun's mare band?  We never question if this might have happened, so why is it that only particular lines are questioned so vigorously?  Why do we not ask for proof for every line that is not well documented?  This has happened to many people I have heard of - the stallion gets out and breeds a mare accidently.

I agree with you that many of the best horses do have this line - many of my favorites....

So as for what is the truth in regard to Exochorda, I do not feel that those who question the pedigree's purity have produced enough proof to prove impurity beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore she should be considered pure.  And I feel that those who have been forced to defend the pedigree have done more to prove purity then those who cast the questions.

One more thing I often think about - I believe it was Joe Ferriss who proved the purity of the Minstril - is that right?  I can't recall all the details - maybe I need to go read about that too, but I seem to remember him somehow proving that *Bahila was indeed pure (Minstril's dam).  Despite this proof - how many serious breeders who believed this line to be impure for many years changed their minds just because one day Joe found some very good evidence and in fact proved this?  My guess is that not many really changed their minds.  So this is why I say that even if the proof was staring at those who question these lines right in the face - they couldn't erase their feelings towards these lines after so many years of prejudice.  A reputation is easy to destroy and even if exhonorated with actual hard proof it is not easy to repair.

Do you remember the guy who was running for office in California who they accused of murdering Chaundra Levy - one of his interns?  His career was destroyed, his wife left him I think, even despite that years later they eventually found the real killer and he was proclaimed innocent.

Many people called Galileo insane for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. Now we can both look back and see how ignorant they really were.  Unfortunately,  there will always be bigots, who out of fear hurt people who try things that are different from what they would do.  But it is those who open their minds, who have the courage to be different, who actually make a difference in society and in breeding programs...

I appreciate all that you have said Ken - totally.  In reality, what I have posted is just me sharing my thoughts on this topic for once, as I do not think I ever posted about this before - even on that old Exochorda thread from last year, even though one of my best friends was vigorously defending Exochorda... I was busy and I wish I had said this sooner.

Many thanks for your respectful dialog.  I do appreciate this discussion with you and others.

Carol
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Carol

I totally agree with you!

Christine
1rider
Just a reminder there is no question of purity.....................and the other is she was never used by the RAS...still the things no one has answered is where she was bred/ foal and by who.. would love to see those things answered so it would clear everything up without doubt. i have looked at both sides and see not proof of either just the parents and a birthday that had to be interpreted.... I just want facts.. but there arent many.... so you must just except it or not. i know horses of EX and TM being exported to the middle east.. so if they like the horse and need it to compete they will buy sooner or later. I have seen that if they want i,t it wont matter...Ken
carolmaginn
Hi Ken,

Okay - I hear what you are saying.... I am enjoying this discussion... Thanks for helping me with it... I hope it is okay for me to continue to "argue" the other side or for other explanations? I hope so... I know you are not really "arguing" with me - we are just having a good discussion on this topic...

Okay - so here goes....Would you like to know how many mares are here at my farm that there would be no records of them ever being "used"? There are logical explanations but if say 20 years went by and I was dead for some reason how could you know the reasons the mare was not used?

1) Example 1 : Makhnifique KA - I did use her. Her foal aborted at 8 months gestation so there will be no record I ever "used" her as a broodmare. If my vet were to move or retire how would you ever find any record that she was actually bred? There would be none that you could find. Is she pure? Absolutely - the purest and a great mare but you will never find records of me using her.

2) Example 2: OBrenna D - 12 years old... I love the mare. First foal born April 13, 2009. Foal was euthanized on April 14, 2009 at Texas A&M - It was a dummy foal - so it will not be registered - so it looks like she was never used. I do not know for sure where she was bred, or born. I would guess it would be in Michigan at the farm of her dam, but I can't be sure... They could have sent her somewhere else to foal out.

3) Example 3 - Bellisimo BCR - just 4 years old - no babies on the ground. Did I use him? Yes - but the first foal is not here yet - baby is due in June. If the baby lives - then you know I used him, if not? Maybe it looks like I never used him? I've never shown him either - just have not done that yet - mostly because I'm busy and have had alot going on over the past few years.

Now once again.... Lets pretend that the year is 2030. I have died, and my husband has also passed away by now. I am an only child, so there are no siblings for you to call even if they were still living. Now here is a question for you... A foal named Bellisimo BCR was born lets say in the year 2005. Can you tell anyone where are the records of where he was born? How about where he was bred? Heck - in all honesty lets not even fast forward to 2030 - lets make it today's year 2009. Now assume that the two people who delivered this foal named Bellisimo BCR (my husband and I delivered him) were killed in a car accident. No one else was in the barn but us that night so how do you know where he was born? I have two different farms, and use a 3rd farm in Fort Worth along with a vet in Weatherford, and one more in Austin... It could have been that he was bred in any of 4 different places and born in 2 or 3 different places - somewhere in Texas.

So tell me - where was Bellisimo BCR born? Where was he Bred? I assure you he is has no "questionable" horses in his pedigree, but can anyone tell where he was bred and born? And oh by the way - lets assume that following my husband and my's death that his only foal was aborted by the dam. You would think I never used him even though I did. The new owners of Bellisimo might have taken him and just used him for a personal riding horse and didn't even bother to register him in their name so you don't even know what ever happened to him. I have a nice friend named Guillermo who takes care of our horses when I'm out of town... He loves Bellisimo. He would love to have him and he wouldn't care if he was registered in his name either. Knowing Guillermo - he would probably leave Bellisimo as a stallion - breed him for his friends and never register any of the foals. You'd never now how to find Guillermo or Bellisimo again if he were not registered in Guillermo's name.

There are many SEs that exist which I couldn't tell you where they were born. For example my mare Bint Kohela has had 3 foals registered. They existed and they were SE. They are in the AHA database. I couldn't tell you where they were born or bred. I can't even tell you where they are now. How could I know that? I don't know the owners. I have even tried to find the owners of these foals as I would love to have another one of her foals. I can't find the original owners or breeders. The prior owners of her foals got a divorce and because the husband was mad he wouldn't give his wife the papers so the offspring are living probably somewhere but I have no idea where.... So I know they were born, bred, and registered, but I can't tell you where they were bred, born or where they are today. I don't even know if they are alive anymore.

So it seems to me there could be many many reasons (like the ones I showed above) for why no one knows where Exochorda was born or bred. And also there could be some logical explanation for why the RAS never used her. Maybe she was injured or sick for a period of time and couldn't be used.

Last month I went to visit a farm in southern CA just outside LA. The owner is a wonderful lady who has some mares with very precious bloodlines and many of the mares have never been used. You might think there was something wrong with them, but there isn't - other then that now they are older. The reason she never bred most of them is that her daughter died unexpectedly at the age of 17 and she lost her desire to breed anything. She was depressed.

I would love to know what was going on at the RAS at the time that Exochorda was there. Could it be they were tight on money and didn't breed or use every mare they had? How many people own horses they never use - they are "pasture pets". We all have big plans when we get horses, but I can tell you that I bought a mare in 2000 and didn't ever show her and only bred her for the first time last year... Yes shame on me - but you think you have plenty of time, and then the next thing you know - 8 years goes by...

So what I do not understand is why would someone question the mares status as SE just because we don't know where she was bred, or born, and because no one is sure of the exact birthday. I know of a good friend who bred a horse I bought. The horse has an "official" birthday - but its inaccurate. The reason is that his most beloved horse passed away and he didn't do anything for months. He was depressed. So some time the FOLLOWING year he registered this horse - I am not sure that he remembered the exact date the horse was actually born - if he did he would have registered the original date. If my friend had never registered the horse and then moved on and out of the SE world - who knows if you would have ever been able to figure out the date of foaling.

I know people who have been very big into SE horses and then suddenly didn't show up one year at the Egyptian Event - gave all their horses to their vet in Arkansas and just seemed to disappear. Who in the world could have ever predicted that would happen? Surely none of the owners of the horses who were expecting the farm to show up at the Event that year... I think this happened about 4 or 5 years ago in fact... Stange things happen all the time. I have learned not to be shocked by anything anymore as life is full of roadblocks and surprises you sometimes suddenly have to deal with. Sometimes it may take years to recover...

So again - I can think of many reasons why information about breeding location, birth location, birth date and even breeder's name could be lost. It could be that there were multiple owners for example. None of the missing data makes me think the horse is not SE, it makes me think that something happened around that date in the lives of the people who bred, foaled out, and initially owned the horse that caused the exact dates to be lost.

I am really curious to know why someone made such a leap in thinking to discredit this mare's heritage... and even more curious to know why other people went along with this thinking without asking the same kind of questions I have asked about in this post.

I thought of one possible thing that would explain this whole Exochorda mess and that is resentment, or fear of something. For example I have seen breeders put other programs down because they find it easier to discredit others programs rather then stand behind their own. It is so much easier to knock others then show the value of your own program - especially if in your heart you feel you are behind the eight ball so to speak. Think about it.... if someone has a bunch of average or even less then average horses, and they see another breeder breeding beautiful horses that people would probably prefer, how in the world would they compete with this? It would take years to raise the bar in their own program so perhaps it might just be easier to discredit the pedigree of the other program and scare people off so that the buyers will instead buy into their programs. Its lousy I know, but I happens today, so it probably happened years ago as well.

What would make me say a horse is not SE would be something like this:

A person who bred a mare stated that her sire was not SE or her dam was not SE. By stating I mean they registered the horse as being a non SE horse. But missing records alone or lack of evidence is not to me proof of anything other then missing info.

One thing we have now that helps to verify approximate breeding dates and pedigrees is the new Stallion Registration paperwork from AHA as well as the DNA being on file to verify parentage.

So - Ken - once again - I guess I come to the conclusion you did as well - you either believe or you don't, but I think that the simplest explanation is probably the most likely. For me it is easier to believe that the breeding and birth locations are not documented for the same reasons my own foals breeding and foaling locations are not documented.

It is alot more complex to conclude that there was a conspiracy to hide the heritage of the horse then just that there were not records. And again - why does Exochorda's pedigree get questioned so vigorously given how many other horses have this same missing data - including some of my own and I'm sure lots of other breeders....

I do wish there was some relative of the breeder of Exochorda who could vouch for her SE Status, however I would see no reason to conclude she was not SE just because we can't find any relatives anymore...

The fact that some have fought so hard to discredit this mare's SE status and not so many other horses with the same missing info, makes me wonder if there isn't some other reason they are doing this - why this horse? Why make such a huge effort to tarnish her birthright? Surely his must have made a few people wonder...

The absence of facts does not substantiate any theory - it proves only that there is a lack of data. To validate any theory or hypothesis in my opinion - you would need the facts to back up the hypothesis...

Thanks again,

Carol

ps: I'm exhausted and I can't even believe I'm up so late again so I think its time for me to stop being such a windbag... Thanks for listening to my questions, ideas and assumptions again - I appreciate your help.




QUOTE (1rider @ May 9 2009, 11:52 PM)
Just a reminder there is no question of purity.....................and the other  is she was never used by the RAS...still the things no one has answered is where she was bred/ foal and by who.. would love to see those things answered so it would clear everything up without doubt.  i have looked at both sides and see not proof of either just the parents and a birthday that had to be interpreted.... I just want facts..  but there arent many.... so you must just except it or not.  i know horses of EX and TM being exported to the middle east.. so if they like the horse and need it to compete they will buy sooner or later. I have seen that if they want i,t it wont matter...Ken
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Liz Salmon
What a great epistle Carol !!!! You made some excellent points. When Rhonda and I went to Dubai recently, we took Joe Ferris's article with us and convinced our client to accept horses with The Minstril bloodlines and not because we own those lines—we don't, but just wanted some justice for those that do to make it easier for their sales.
Lil Buddha
*sigh*

my head hurts and my hair is on fire...another *Exochorda topic.

I am proud that my thoughts and ideas, and even my questions are my own and that never, will I be manipulated by someone else.

Like Kelly said,
QUOTE
Exochorda is SE, and always has been. She's been on the root list of TPS SE since the beginning. All else is just speculation.


KGH
Somebody get this man some water!

Exochorda is SE, and always has been. She's been on the root list of TPS SE since the beginning. All else is just speculation.

Kelly
Liz Salmon
With that said from KGH, doesn't everyone think this has been hashed out to death—time for closure ?
Al Sahra Arabians
Thank you Carol, Liz and everyone else for this discussion. It makes this forum a fun and interesting place to visit.

With regard to "not using mares"--or other horses--many newcomers weren't around after the tax laws changed in 1986. Many good horses (bioth stallions and mares) were lost or not used for many years--until about 1996 or 1997. That's when the same laws changed in Canada. When that happened, horses that had been valued at $30,000 and up were dumped on the market for $300-$1000. I went to the Montebello sales and bought some of them!

Newcomers don't realize that from 1997 and for 2-3 years after that, you didn't breed your horses and incur the expense of producing a foal when your prospective buyers could buy a breeding age Egyptian Prince daughter, a Prince Fa Moniet daughter, etc., for as little as $1000 to $2000! So, I had (and still have) maiden mares that are older, because I just held on as best I could to my horses until market conditions changed again. For all of you new breeders out there--can you imagine a market crash of horses TWICE in about 10-12 years? Well, that is what happened!

So Carols's explanation about "why wasn't Exochorda (or any other mare or stallion) used is a valid one. New breeders need to do their own independent study of articles written by people WITHOUT AN AGENDA, and not just listen to self-serving "experts" and breeders in some parts of the world who have an agenda to sell only their bloodlines and to try to discredit others while doing so.

Joe Ferriss has said before that if you REALLY wanted to discredit bloodlines, there are horses that are in EVERY LIVING STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN EVERYWHERE that can be questioned. Look at all of the pedigrees--they all go to "desert bred" at some point!!! Let's face it--everytime a horses is wrongfully discredited, our already limited gene pool is effected. Thank you, Joe, Caroll, Liz, and everyone else out there who is SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT!

Sue
MHuprich
The term "Straight Egyptian" is one that is defined by the Pyramid Society. As such, they also are the governing body to list what horses they include in the definition, and what horses they exclude from the definition.

Many other groups have created their own defined terms and therefore also have the ability to clarify the definition, and list what horses are included, or excluded from the definition. Examples include Al Khamsa, Sheykh Obeyd, Asil, and so on.

No everyone has to agree with the individual definitions, but these groups have all spent lots of time and effort in trying to be clear what the guiding lights were behind each of the clauses in the definitions. As we know, several changes have been made as new information has been found. However, the final decision belongs to the groups that defined the terms and the horses that were included in the terms.

Everyone is, of course, welcome to exclude horses they don't like from their own programs, or horses that don't fit in with their own programs even if they liked them. No one is arguing about personal choices breeders make in their own programs.
sarri
QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 08:39 AM)
Hi Ken,




So tell me - where was Bellisimo BCR born?  Where was he Bred?  e.



Carol

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k to answer your quesirton if you both passed away and your vet moved you still have record of registration with aha so that example kid of doesn't work but i do understand what you are trying to say now if Aha went out of business on top of you passing away then that would be a different story biggrin.gif
carolmaginn
Liz,

That is great, but I still think that long time breeders who have had this prejudice told to them for many years will not accept the fairly proof from Joe Ferris after they have been pounded for many years about the questionability of this pedigree. The reason your client was open minded is that he is just getting started I believe right? He asked you and Rhonda to go help him to set up his brand new program. I hope this man is strong and will be able to maintain his open mindedness about this.

Carol

QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ May 10 2009, 07:02 AM)
What a great epistle Carol !!!! You made some excellent points. When Rhonda and I went to Dubai recently, we took Joe Ferris's article with us and convinced our client to accept horses  with The Minstril bloodlines and not because we own those lines—we don't, but just wanted some justice for those that do to make it easier for their sales.
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carolmaginn
Hi Sarry,

I do not think that it says on the AHA records where Bellisimo was born. Here are the answers in case you want to know to see what I'm saying...

Bellisimo BCR was conceived at Kehilan Arabians at 1059 FM 1187 West, Fort Worth, TX. He was born at one of our farms (the original one in Austin at 14800 Bear Creek Pass, Austin TX). Of course that is no longer the address of our farm. I do not know how anyone could know where he was born exactly. They might know my mailing address at that time but not where the horse would be foaled out. I have a mare due the first two weeks in June. That baby will be born at a foaling facility in Houston. I actually don't even know the address there yet myself. The reason for her being foaled out in Houston is that I bought the mare from a client forgetting that she was due the week of the Egyptian Event. Which by the way was the same time that Bellisimo was born. I had to fly home after only being there 2 days from the EE to meet my mare as I was afraid she might foal without me there and my husband might need help.

Now yes true - If AHA went out of business (which quite honestly wouldn't shock me totally as PAHR did) we would have possibly lost the records. In this case would would have to fly to Aurora, Colorado and did through all the records if they even keep physical records on file... I'll bet they have converted to electronic archives by now but am not sure.

Carol

QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 09:14 AM)
k to answer your quesirton  if you both passed away  and your vet moved  you still have record of registration with aha so that example  kid of doesn't work but i do understand what you are trying to say now if  Aha went out of business on top of you  passing away then that would be a different story  biggrin.gif
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sarri
QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 03:53 PM)
Hi Sarry,

I do not think that it says on the AHA records where Bellisimo was born.   Here are the answers in case you want to know to see what I'm saying...

Bellisimo BCR was conceived at Kehilan Arabians at 1059 FM 1187 West, Fort Worth, TX.  He was born at one of our farms (the original one in Austin at 14800 Bear Creek Pass, Austin TX).  Of course that is no longer the address of our farm.  I do not know how anyone could know where he was born exactly.  They might know my mailing address at that time but not where the horse would be foaled out.  I have a mare due the first two weeks in June.  That baby will be born at a foaling facility in Houston.  I actually don't even know the address there yet myself.  The reason for her being foaled out in Houston is that I bought the mare from a client forgetting that she was due the week of the Egyptian Event.  Which by the way was the same time that Bellisimo was born.  I had to fly home after only being there 2 days from the EE to meet my mare as I was afraid she might foal without me there and my husband might need help.

Now yes true - If AHA went out of business (which quite honestly wouldn't shock me totally as PAHR did) we would have possibly lost the records.  In this case would would have to fly to Aurora, Colorado and did through all the records if they even keep physical records on file... I'll bet they have converted to electronic archives by now but am not sure.

Carol
*



true physical birth would be hard to trace how ever it would be easier to asses because they have year of birth on file as well as the recorded owners name so if you are his owner from birth then it would be easy to deduct that he was born at your farm .. wouldn't it?
carolmaginn
Liz,

I don't think its time for closure yet - lets let it run until everyone stops posting anymore. I have truly enjoyed this discussion and thank Ken sincerely for going back and forth with me a little. If everyone thinks the same thing then someone is not thinking. I think that there will always be new people who will ask these honest questions, and they deserve to hear the different perspectives from different people such as myself who has never posted about this before until last night.

And I also really appreciate Ken allowing me to debate with him. He is clearly open minded as he owns these lines and we are both seeing the same thing - the truth and more answers to help reveal the more facts. I don't own any Exochorda lines but I honestly just like the discovery that can be revealed through a good debate or discussion amongst breeders and other experts like Ken, me, Kelly, Melissa, you and the rest of the people who have insights to contribute.

This kind of questioning and exploration is to me much like doing interviews for a book or an interview. I saw a movie the other night about a Britsh media person who interviewed Richard Nixon after he resigned under the disgrace of the Watergate scandal. Though many people had gone over the Watergate story many times and it had totally been hashed out - this British media guy was able to uncover a new fact that was overlooked and that one or actually two facts made all the difference between Richard Nixon admitting his mistake or just justifying his actions.... How ironic that in all of America no one seemed to pay much attention to this little detail, but an outsider from England who came at it from a different perspective was able to uncover something that made all the difference. Liz - I was a little kid at the time and so I missed that interview back then, but being as you are British, I'll bet you know who that media guy is that I am referring to who uncovered the new important facts through new research at the archives in some library in Washington, DC. He was kind of a famous talk show host like Diane Sawyer or Barbara Walters, but people didn't take him to be a serious reporter really I don't think.

If no one asks these hard questions from new perspectives, and no one has the courage to speak about it or debate it, or try to really get to the bottom of the issue from all perspectives then we are all just acting like mushrooms - in the dark and covered in cow patties. Not a pretty sight at all.

Really - call me a wierdo, but I think this is fun trying to figure out this Exochorda puzzle - like solving a case, like the game of "Clue". I'm not in any way attached to the issue so that is why I'm really not emotionally involved - it doesn't matter to me either way, but it is interesting. It does however matter to the breed overall since so many horses could be excluded from our gene pool if we do not solve the puzzle.

I think the most important thing is that we ask the hard questions, do not put all long term breeders on pedistals for like parents they are only human. And although I do feel long term breeders who have been dedicated to the breed deserve our honor and respect - true dedication to the breed means being dedicated to the truth. This should apply not just to pedigree authenticity in my opinion but also to breeding results. If we really love the breed deeply - we should be brutally honest with ourselves about all the good and bad breeding results. Its not easy to do sometimes (not for me either), but to make progress overall I think we need to share all of our breeding discoveries and results to help others gain the knowledge to breed even better horses.

Fake photos of horses, plastic surgery, and all the the stupid things people do to hide the truth doesn't advance our cause as breeders.

Let me also tell you about a policy that I really love... I love that in some countries in the Middle East, breeding is not about the money. They do not charge for stud fees. The reason is that they consider it wrong to charge for the breeding of that animals, and the result is that people are able to breed to the best horses possible. I really feel that this is a group of people who are truly dedicated to the future of the breed. Yes they may charge for the horses they produce, but not for the stud fees.

How sad it is here in our culture that if you do not charge a stud fee or you have a very low stud fee that people perceive the stallion must not be of value.... Quality of a stallion in my opinion should not be about the price of a stud fee, it should be about the foals produced and what that are and what they can do. And in fact I know of many stallion who do not look impressive themselves have little or NO marketing, don't even have decent photos, but are GREAT producers. I can think of horses like that all day long such as The Source CC. When is the last time that someone was smart enough to breed to that horse? Or how about Vanylla Ice? Or how about Roger Bell's Baarez son? Or Caledonia's Halim Shah son?

There are amazing horses out there. I wish that someone could go out there and write a book about all the hidden gems who could totally advance the breed if only people were smart enough to use them or even were aware of them. Maybe I should write a book of research - wouldn't that be fun? I would ask experts to help me like Arlene Magid and Judy Guess, and maybe Steve Diamond.

Boy oh boy - got off on a tangent again - sorry about the new epistle ... got to go out and work my stallions now - trying to put weight and condition on them so they can compete with some of the stallions in the show ring :-)

Thanks all for allowing me to blabber on again....

Carol

QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ May 10 2009, 08:46 AM)
With that said from KGH, doesn't everyone think this has been hashed out to death—time for closure ?
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carolmaginn
Not if I used a breeding facility not at my farm... biggrin.gif

QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 10:24 AM)
true physical birth would be hard to trace how ever it would be easier to asses because they have year of birth on file as well as  the recorded owners name so if you are his owner from birth then it would be easy to deduct that he was born  at your farm .. wouldn't it?
*
sarri
QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 04:35 PM)
Not if I used a breeding facility not at my farm...  biggrin.gif
*

never mind i'm confoozling myself
sarri
QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 04:33 PM)
Liz,

I don't think its time for closure yet - lets let it run until everyone stops posting anymore.  I have truly enjoyed this discussion and thank Ken sincerely for going back and forth with me a little.  If everyone thinks the same thing then someone is not thinking.  I think that there will always be new people who will ask these honest questions, and they deserve to hear the different perspectives from different people such as myself who has never posted about this before until last night. 

And I also really appreciate Ken allowing me to debate  with him.  He is clearly open minded as he owns these lines and we are both seeing the same thing - the truth and more answers to help reveal the more facts.  I don't own any Exochorda lines but I honestly just like the discovery that can be revealed through a good debate or discussion amongst breeders and other experts like Ken, me, Kelly, Melissa, you and the rest of the people who have insights to contribute. 

This kind of questioning and exploration is to me much like doing interviews for a book or an interview.  I saw a movie the other night about a Britsh media person who interviewed Richard Nixon after he resigned under the disgrace of the Watergate scandal.  Though many people had gone over the Watergate story many times and it had totally been hashed out - this British media guy was able to uncover a new fact that was overlooked and that one or actually two facts made all the difference between Richard Nixon admitting his mistake or just justifying his actions.... How ironic that in all of America no one seemed to pay much attention to this little detail, but an outsider from England who came at it from a different perspective was able to uncover something that made all the difference.  Liz - I was a little kid at the time and so I missed that interview back then, but being as you are British, I'll bet you know who that media guy is that I am referring to who uncovered the new important facts through new research at the archives in some library in Washington, DC.  He was kind of a famous talk show host like Diane Sawyer or Barbara Walters, but people didn't take him to be a serious reporter really I don't think.

If no one asks these hard questions from new perspectives, and no one has the courage to speak about it or debate it, or try to really get to the bottom of the issue from all perspectives then we are all just acting like mushrooms - in the dark and covered in cow patties.  Not a pretty sight at all.

Really - call me a wierdo, but I think this is fun trying to figure out this Exochorda puzzle - like solving a case, like the game of "Clue".  I'm not in any way attached to the issue so that is why I'm really not emotionally involved - it doesn't matter to me either way, but it is interesting.  It does however matter to the breed overall since so many horses could be excluded from our gene pool if we do not solve the puzzle.

I think the most important thing is that we ask the hard questions, do not put all long term breeders on pedistals for like parents they are only human.  And although I do feel long term breeders who have been dedicated to the breed deserve our honor and respect - true dedication to the breed means being dedicated to the truth.  This should apply not just to pedigree authenticity in my opinion but also to breeding results.  If we really love the breed deeply - we should be brutally honest with ourselves about all the good and bad breeding results.  Its not easy to do sometimes (not for me either), but to make progress overall I think we need to share all of our breeding discoveries and results to help others gain the knowledge to breed even better horses.

Fake photos of horses, plastic surgery, and all the the stupid things people do to hide the truth doesn't advance our cause as breeders.

Let me also tell you about a policy that I really love... I love that in some countries in the Middle East, breeding is not about the money.  They do not charge for stud fees.  The reason is that they consider it wrong to charge for the breeding of that animals, and the result is that people are able to breed to the best horses possible.  I really feel that this is a group of people who are truly dedicated to the future of the breed.  Yes they may charge for the horses they produce, but not for the stud fees. 

How sad it is here in our culture that if you do not charge a stud fee or you have a very low stud fee that people perceive the stallion must not be of value.... Quality of a stallion in my opinion should not be about the price of a stud fee, it should be about the foals produced and what that are and what they can do.  And in fact I know of many stallion who do not look impressive themselves have little or NO marketing, don't even have decent photos, but are GREAT producers.  I can think of horses like that all day long such as The Source CC.  When is the last time that someone was smart enough to breed to that horse?  Or how about Vanylla Ice?  Or how about Roger Bell's Baarez son?  Or Caledonia's Halim Shah son?

There are amazing horses out there.  I wish that someone could go out there and write a book about all the hidden gems who could totally advance the breed if only people were smart enough to use them or even were aware of them.  Maybe I should write a book of research - wouldn't that be fun?  I would ask experts to help me like Arlene Magid and Judy Guess, and maybe Steve Diamond.

Boy oh boy - got off on a tangent again - sorry about the new epistle ... got to go out and work my stallions now - trying to put weight and condition on them so they can compete with some of the stallions in the show ring :-)

Thanks all for allowing me to blabber on again....

Carol
*

sorry am bad but couldn't resist so are you going to be the trend setter and stand your stallions for free Carol .. ph34r.gif biggrin.gif
Liz Salmon
Yes, Carol, David Frost was a household name in the UK and had his own news programme. I haven't seen the movie as yet. It is true that other nationalities often do have a different perspective on subjects. I still think like a Brit and am more European in my thinking than American and tend to see things a bit differently very often. It's like having an complete over view of the American scene, particularly with politics.

You are right, there may be people who have not read all the aspects and of this Excordia discussion. The whole Minstril thing was started from politics I'm pretty convinced.
carolmaginn
Liz,

I am not an expert in any way, however it is my guess that it was politically motivated as well. If someone told me I was wrong and could prove it I would keep an open mind to it... Right now this is my best "guess" since I do not know of what the evidence is that exists to say Bahila (Minstril's dam) was not pure. As far as I know that was proven to be false and Joe Ferris found her to be pure SE. So I can only assume that the big mess as either politically motivated, OR maybe someone just make a mistake that people believed and it was passed on... It could have even just been by accident for all I know.

The other thing is that some folks bred poor examples of the lines by ignoring phenotype and looking only at pedigrees which to me is a huge mistake. But maybe the people didn't know what good conformation is. I would say that you are extremely good at judging conformation, but not everyone is. This is really an important thing to learn..

Carol

QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ May 10 2009, 10:45 AM)
Yes, Carol, David Frost was a household name in the UK and had his own news programme. I haven't seen the movie as yet. It is true that other nationalities often do have a different perspective on subjects. I still think like a Brit and am more European in my thinking than American and tend to see things a bit differently very often. It's like having an complete over view of the American scene, particularly with politics.

You are right, there may be people who have not read all the aspects and of this Excordia discussion. The whole Minstril thing was started from politics I'm pretty convinced.
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carolmaginn
Well let me put it this way.... I wouldn't give a free breeding to someone with a mare that had not produced well with a stallion of equal quality to my own, or who had conformation or phenotype that wouldn't be likely to produce a quality foal with my stallion. I would rather refer them to a stallion that would be a better match for that mare. If my goal is to help produce good foals that wouldn't make sense.

But if someone had an exceptional mare who had produced well with another stallion of similiar quality, or even it the mare produced no foals but was a high quality mare, then yes I would give a free breeding to my stallion/s. The people in the middle east do not give breedings to every mare owner if they do not like the mare - which I also think is a good thing.

In fact I have heard that what some of the people do in Saudi is that they give a free breeding, and the mare owner does something nice for them - gives them a nice gift or something as a "thank you". I think this is really nice and also builds friendships more so then money. In this economy - there are some small breeders out there who have really exceptional mares but just can't afford a $5,000 stud fee when they can buy a mature quality mare (if they look long and hard enough) these days for $15,000 only due to the fact that people are hurting right now with our terrible economy. By the time you are done with all the breeding fees and foaling fees to your vet (who has probably raised their fees and tightened extending credit) you are up to about $7,500 (with the $5K stud fee) and if you end up with a colt who is not top quality - you have a gelding you would not be able to sell for that much. So where is the incentive to pay such a stud fee right now? If you have the money and you want to breed to a horse - then yes you pay the fee, but that is only a few people right now - maybe 1 or 2% of our population has much descretionary money to spend right now.

So I would be open to a much reduced stud fee or no stud fee for mare owners with very high quality mares, and I think that most serious breeders would do that same. They might not say that on SE.com, they may say "hey don't share this with anyone but I'll give you this stud fee for your top mare...", but I think serious breeders who care about producing quality foals more then money would do this.

In fact I have been given free breedings to very nice stallions for use on my best mares, so I would be willing to pass it on when appropriate for the right mare yes. In truth, I have felt such gratitude to these stallion owners that I would do anything for them and in end would have probably paid for the breeding giving them free photos or other help I could provide.

I don't think that makes me a trend setter - I'll bet more people might be doing that but they just may not discuss it online.

And one more thing... It is so sad to see some high quality stallions out there not being used because people can't afford the stud fees. There are several stallions that I really like who no one is using. As a result the stallion owners become disheartened and less and less enthused. But what is you see a super baby produced by your stallion - I mean a SUPER baby... Would you still be sad that you didn't charge for this breeding fee, or would you not be over the moon about what you stallion was able to be produced?

I hope that answers the question :-)

Carol



QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 10:44 AM)
sorry am bad but couldn't resist so are you  going to be the trend setter and stand your stallions for free Carol ..  ph34r.gif  biggrin.gif
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sarri
QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 06:52 PM)
Well let me put it this way.... I wouldn't give a free breeding to someone with a mare that had not produced well with a stallion of equal quality to my own, or who had conformation or phenotype that wouldn't be likely to produce a quality foal with my stallion.  I would rather refer them to a stallion that would be a better match for that mare.  If my goal is to help produce good foals that wouldn't make sense.

But if someone had an exceptional mare who had produced well with another stallion of similiar quality, or even it the mare produced no foals but was a high quality mare, then yes I would give a free breeding to my stallion/s.  The people in the middle east do not give breedings to every mare owner if they do not like the mare - which I also think is a good thing.

In fact I have heard that what some of the people do in Saudi is that they give a free breeding, and the mare owner does something nice for them - gives them a nice gift or something as a "thank you".  I think this is really nice and also builds friendships more so then money.  In this economy - there are some small breeders out there who have really exceptional mares but just can't afford a $5,000 stud fee when they can buy a mature quality mare (if they look long and hard enough) these days for $15,000 only due to the fact that people are hurting right now with our terrible economy.  By the time you are done with all the breeding fees and foaling fees to your vet (who has probably raised their fees and tightened extending credit) you are up to about $7,500 (with the $5K stud fee) and if you end up with a colt who is not top quality - you have a gelding you would not be able to sell for that much.  So where is the incentive to pay such a stud fee right now?  If you have the money and you want to breed to a horse - then yes you pay the fee, but that is only a few people right now - maybe 1 or 2% of our population has much descretionary money to spend right now.

So I would be open to a much reduced stud fee or no stud fee for mare owners with very high quality mares, and I think that most serious breeders would do that same.  They might not say that on SE.com, they may say "hey don't share this with anyone but I'll give you this stud fee for your top mare...", but I think serious breeders who care about producing quality foals more then money would do this.

In fact I have been given free breedings to very nice stallions for use on my best mares, so I would be willing to pass it on when appropriate for the right mare yes.  In truth, I have felt such gratitude to these stallion owners that I would do anything for them and in end would have probably paid for the breeding giving them free photos or other help I could provide.

I don't think that makes me a trend setter - I'll bet more people might be doing that but they just may not discuss it online.

And one more thing... It is so sad to see some high quality stallions out there not being used because people can't afford the stud fees.  There are several stallions that I really like who no one is using.  As a result the stallion owners become disheartened and less and less enthused.  But what is you see a super baby produced by your stallion - I mean a SUPER baby... Would you still be sad that you didn't charge for this breeding fee, or would you not be over the moon about what you stallion was able to be produced?

I hope that answers the question  :-)

Carol
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carol


my comment was tongue and cheek kind of a comment not a serious one i was just joshin and i admire any one who would honestly say hey my stallion is not for your mare but i know of a stallion that is .. unfortunately in north america you would be trend setter and in a good way and there are several stallions i would love to breed to but the fees are so high i cannot afford them so i understand
KGH
Sarri,
There was a time when breeders would often refer to other stallions. The pupose was entirely to see the best foals produced for the betterment of all of SE.
carolmaginn
Sarri,

I should have known you were just kidding, but I was in my "serious mode" and didn't realize.

I have two types of stallions who are very different. One is very typey with huge eyes and a great hip great bone and feet and tail carriage. He is also fairly tall as SE's go. He has a great pedigree (which of course is only part of the puzzle). The horse has a super dispostion too. If you like those things - this might be a good horse for some mares who need type, height, more substance. If I were to fault him I'd say I'd like a shorter head and a smaller muzzle. I wouldn't breed him to a long headed mare with longer ears.

My other stallion has tiny ears and huge eyes but I wish he was more exotic in the head (like the other stallion is). On the other had he has a short head with an amazing neck and great body and movement. If you have a typey mare who had long ears and a body that needs work (e.g. stretch, better hip, short back, and a better neck with more hook and a nice clean throatlatch) then I would recommend this stallion for sure. If I could breed one stallion to the other - I think I'd be very pleased with the results but for now I will have to wait until I have more babies on the ground to cross the lines and see if this works.

As for sending a breeder down the road, if someone breeds to my stallion and gets a marginal baby - that doesn't help me much with stallion promotion - in fact the opposite happens.. Word of mouth is the strongest form of marketing in my opinion....

Carol

QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 01:06 PM)
carol
my comment was tongue and cheek kind of a comment    not a serious one  i was just joshin      and i admire any one who would honestly say hey my stallion is not for your mare but i know of a stallion that is .. unfortunately in north america you would be trend setter and in a good way and there are several stallions i would love to breed to but the fees are so high i cannot afford them so i understand
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carolmaginn
Well this is true... Kelly I think you may have lowered Alaa Jabaar's stud fee too? Very smart of you. This stallion is one of the few in the US with the Nagel bloodlines. He has a tremendously exotic head and cute ears. I'd breed him to a mare with height, and a rock solid body only. I would think that you could do alot with Imdal and Sameh bred lines with this stallion. In fact - Some of the Desperado bred mares I've seen have good bodies but fairly straight profiles in the head - I would think this might be a good cross... but I guess you might want to ask Jerel Kerby to see if it worked for him....

Imagine if just for 6 months every breeding farm would agree to offer free breedings to anyone who asked (just for 6 months). It would be a neat experiment to see what kind of foals could be produced and also it probably would stimulate more people to breed.... Not that is my idea of a stimulus package that would actually work!!! Or if every farm would even consider giving a buy one get one free deal - that would also help. Vets would make more money, the US would perhaps be able to produce more quality foals to replace the many that have had to be sold overseas due to our bad economy and a few stallions might actually get to be used more before they die.

Is this wild thinking? Probably, but I love the idea of getting more people to think of solutions. Maybe my ideas are not good ones and someone can come up with better ideas to promote more good horses to be bred.

I like the idea of coming up with a few wild ideas... I feel bad we have digressed a bit from the subject of Exochorda though.

Carol

QUOTE (KGH @ May 10 2009, 01:13 PM)
Sarri,
There was a time when breeders would often refer to other stallions. The pupose was entirely to see the best foals produced for the betterment of all of SE.
*
KGH
Carol
Many stallion owners are turning away from putting their stallions at stud. Too many colts out there !!
The economy is bad. Producing more horses at this time for free reminds me of when the pres of AHA said..breed every mare. wink.gif
sarri
QUOTE (KGH @ May 10 2009, 07:13 PM)
Sarri,
There was a time when breeders would often refer to other stallions. The pupose was entirely to see the best foals produced for the betterment of all of SE.
*

yes operative words used to be .. i remember reading about gainey and cmar and al marah programs where they would swap stallions or mares between them .. old timers sure knew how to do it .. now not all but allot think of nothing but how to make money
carolmaginn
Well I think swapping is a great plan... and a good way to try some new blood in a program...

QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 01:55 PM)
yes operative words used to be .. i remember reading about gainey and cmar and al marah programs  where they would swap stallions or mares between them  .. old timers sure knew how to do it .. now  not all but allot  think of nothing but how to make money
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carolmaginn
Hey I currently maintain the Sheyk Obeyd website. I didn't create it but I maintain it and so I read all the info on that site.

If anyone would like to learn more about the history of Exochorda there is a wonderful article on there called "The Little Bride *Exochorda" which is very educational in my opinion... You can google that title and it will be the first link that pops up....

Thanks,

Carol
Solita
I love your way of thinking Carol biggrin.gif

QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 07:27 PM)
Imagine if just for 6 months every breeding farm would agree to offer free breedings to anyone who asked (just for 6 months).  It would be a neat experiment to see what kind of foals could be produced and also it probably would stimulate more people to breed.... Not that is my idea of a stimulus package that would actually work!!!  Or if every farm would even consider giving a buy one get one free deal - that would also help.  Vets would make more money, the US would perhaps be able to produce more quality foals to replace the many that have had to be sold overseas due to our bad economy and a few stallions might actually get to be used more before they die. 

Is this wild thinking?  Probably, but I love the idea of getting more people to think of solutions.  Maybe my ideas are not good ones and someone can come up with better ideas to promote more good horses to be bred.

Carol
*
Caryn Rogosky
Dear Carol and All,
I swore never to get into an Internet debate on this topic again, and I am not going to do so now, but I think that Carol's and Liz's comments are outstanding and merit a long, hard look. For those who may not be new to this topic, here are a couple of points to consider:

1. With regard to the circumstances of lost breeder records in Egypt during the first half of the 1900's and before: We cannot apply the same logic and assumptions which would be appropriate today in this event -- there would not likely be a second set of records, and probably no official records. There was NO general stud book, no Registry, no government control or oversight of private breeders or their records in Egypt during that time. If a breeder's records were lost or destroyed...that was pretty much it, except for the possibility that there may be an overlapping of documentation somewhere along the line (such as export documents, racing information, etc).

2. The stud records of Prince Kemal El Dine, the President of the RAS and a private breeder during the early part of the 1900's, have been lost or destroyed. As of today, as far as anyone knows...they don't exist. We only have records compiled through anecdotal means, such as letters from visitors, etc, and the kinds of overlapping documentation which I have mentioned. One such record is a letter which was written by a visitor to the farm of Kamel El Dine, in which he cites the existence there of many "unnamed" or "unknown" horses -- at least to him. In his outstanding article, "Rustem in Retrospect" (Khamsat Vol. 12, No.1), Joe Ferriss states: "I thought it would be interesting to try to document all known Al Khamsa get of Rustem (*Astraled by Ridaa). Using sources such as: Vol. II of AHS stud book, Hansi Heck-Melnyk's Straight Egyptian Index, Al Khamsa Arabians LL, and the 1932 letter to W.R. Brown published in Khamsat Vol. 4, No. 3, courtesy of Carol Lyons, I was able to come up with a composite list of 34 get of Rustem. In checking the RAS Stud book Vol I, I found that of those get produced in Egypt (and there may be others not documented) very few appear in any official records. A number of them are properly photographed or identified by Jack Humphrey in 1932 in Egypt while visiting Prince Kemal El Dine. Some had no names. Three of the dams of these Rustem get are not identified in any stud book or official record with ancestry, strain, breeders ect. recorded.--- these being Nizma, Rizkia and Hasni Hegazia...ultimately only the Prince knows who these mares are. But I have no reason NOT to think of them as Egyptian Arabian horses. This is but one example of what we have to constantly deal with in exploring the details of past ancestry".

3. During our visit to Egypt two years ago, Marilyn Lang and I were told by authorities at the EAO that most of the actual records of Dr. Branch, the Director of horse breeding operations at the RAS and mentor/breeding consultant to both Prince Kemal El Dine and Prince Mohamed Aly, were lost in the early 1930's. What is known of the early breeding activities at the RAS was recreated from notes and memory by Dr. Ashoub over a decade after Dr. Branch had retired from his post.

4. There is no PROOF of purity (or of SE qualification) for ANY SE ancestor -- bar none. The only element upon which we can rely is reasonable evidence. PURITY is improvable for any horse born prior to DNA testing -- and even the "absolute" concept of DNA testing can be challenged to some degree. I harken back to the Al Khamsa definition of purity, which leaves enough wiggle room necessary to allow for the reality of "non-proof", the best and most honest means of approaching this issue.

5. There is currently far MORE evidence available for Leila II (*Exochorda) regarding her place of birth, her birth date and the names and provenance of her parents than MANY very famous and popular ancestors, including but by no means limited to, El Dere -- whose purity and qualifications as a SE I do not doubt for one second. El Dere is an excellent example because of his familiarity and impact on the SE Arabian bloodlines -- we all realize the strength of his blood within the SE population. However, he is only one of countless ancestors who could be singled out as "questionable" according to the very same criteria as some others have been...but are curiously avoided and/or defended. Its simply a matter of an illogical and unethical double standard.

6. There is very strong and mounting evidence to support the belief that Leila II was bred and/or raised by Prince Kemal El Din (the cousin to Prince Mohamed Aly and then the President of the RAS) -- and at this time, there is no evidence at all to prove that this is not the case. There is ZERO evidence to support any idea that the ancestry or qualifications of Leila II are any more "questionable" than any other Straight Egyptian Arabian horse. Not even one iota...never has been.

7. It is true that there have been very damaging rumors planted and circulated to imply impurity or lack of provenance in the pedigrees of some of the greatest bloodlines the SE community has ever known. I believe very strongly that this is no accident. Think about it...who has ever bothered to target bloodlines that weren't gaining success? It is easy to promote the "purest of the pure" label stuck on the rumps of one's own breeding animals by simply pointing out whatever holes exist in "the other guys" horse's pedigrees -- while absolutely ignoring the same (or worse) holes which exist in the ancestry of one's own herd. What easier way to bring down a competitor's breeding program or to devaluate a competitors produce? And it has always worked like a charm. Why? Because the people who perpetrate these rumors DEPEND upon the lack of knowledge of others.
To have knowledge is to be empowered.
Caryn Rogosky
1rider
7. It is true that there have been very damaging rumors planted and circulated to imply impurity or lack of provenance in the pedigrees of some of the greatest bloodlines the SE community has ever known. I believe very strongly that this is no accident. Think about it...who has ever bothered to target bloodlines that weren't gaining success? It is easy to promote the "purest of the pure" label stuck on the rumps of one's own breeding animals by simply pointing out whatever holes exist in "the other guys" horse's pedigrees -- while absolutely ignoring the same (or worse) holes which exist in the ancestry of one's own herd. What easier way to bring down a competitor's breeding program or to devaluate a competitors produce? And it has always worked like a charm. Why? Because the people who perpetrate these rumors DEPEND upon the lack of knowledge of others.
To have knowledge is to be empowered.
Caryn Rogosky
...Why cant it be simple question and research... Still never heard any one put this horses type , conformation or quality put down.... old resentment keeps clouding these subjects...the lack of knowledge about horses has been the biggest money maker in this industry, mostly by the halter industry..... Ken
carolmaginn
Ken,

It really doesn't matter that no one has put down the type, conformation or quality of the horse. Casting doubt on a SE horse's pedigree and suggesting that is has questionable heritage is what destroys the reputation of those lines. In fact I would say that because the horses were of higher quality in terms of conformation and type - the only way to compete was to create fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) around the horse's pedigree.

I swear to you that I have no old resentment. I don't have these lines and I respect everyone involved here for the contributions they have made to the breed.

I totally agree with you that the biggest money maker has been lack of knowledge. One more thing I want you to know. The conclusions I have drawn are my own. They are not made because of any influence of people I know and respect. In fact I really do respect all of the people who have discussed this topic from both sides for what they have given to the breed - but I still have to form my own personal conclusion.

I want you to know that I am not a sheep just following some person who may have a personal agenda.

That is what I want for all of us - not to be sheep or those little animals that follow the leader off the cliff and drown because they can't think for themselves or see the results of going down that path (lemmons I think they are called).

Lets debate and discuss and use the research and fact as you said... But I do think that it is a fact that people sometimes discredit others when the feel insecure. I hate to say it but its almost like thing people do because they are just humans and are fearful of losing something

Carol.

QUOTE (1rider @ May 10 2009, 11:23 PM)
7. It is true that there have been very damaging rumors planted and circulated to imply impurity or lack of provenance in the pedigrees of some of the greatest bloodlines the SE community has ever known. I believe very strongly that this is no accident. Think about it...who has ever bothered to target bloodlines that weren't gaining success?  It is easy to promote the "purest of the pure" label stuck on the rumps of one's own breeding animals by simply pointing out whatever holes exist in "the other guys" horse's pedigrees  -- while absolutely ignoring the same (or worse) holes which exist in the ancestry of one's own herd. What easier way to bring down a competitor's breeding program or to devaluate a competitors produce? And it has always worked like a charm. Why? Because the people who perpetrate these rumors DEPEND upon the lack of knowledge of others.
To have knowledge is to be empowered. 
Caryn Rogosky
...Why cant it be simple question and research... Still never heard any one put this horses type , conformation or quality put down.... old resentment keeps clouding these subjects...the lack of knowledge about horses has been the biggest money maker in this industry, mostly by the halter industry..... Ken
*
Caryn Rogosky
I agree, it should just be about questions and research -- and if that had been the case we wouldn't still be talking about this topic some three decades after the rumor was started -- because it is a non-issue. The research has answered the "questions" raised about this ancestor to an equal or far greater degree than it has answered the same questions for many other ancestors whose qualifications or provenance are never doubted.

This is about is the distortion of reality through a grossly uneven application of criteria. Every person who has done serious research on Arabian horse lines to the desert has concluded the same thing -- there are "questions", with regard to details and/or recorded data, in the pedigree of every ancestor. It is a fact that the research has revealed far less open questions in the documented pedigree of Exochorda than in many, many other "non-questioned" SE ancestors...and therein lies the great distortion.

Read the statement by Joe Ferris again (which I posted earlier):
"I was able to come up with a composite list of 34 get of Rustem. In checking the RAS Stud book Vol I, I found that of those get produced in Egypt (and there may be others not documented) very few appear in any official records. A number of them are properly photographed or identified by Jack Humphrey in 1932 in Egypt while visiting Prince Kemal El Dine. Some had no names. Three of the dams of these Rustem get are not identified in any stud book or official record with ancestry, strain, breeders ect. recorded.--- these being Nizma, Rizkia and Hasni Hegazia...ultimately only the Prince knows who these mares are. But I have no reason NOT to think of them as Egyptian Arabian horses. This is but one example of what we have to constantly deal with in exploring the details of past ancestry".

Misused, doubt can be a powerfully damaging tool. Once the seed of doubt is planted it takes a great deal of time and an unrelenting amount of effort to weed it out. It is very easy to throw seeds of doubt into other people's gardens, and for many years this has been done, rather successfully in some cases. Is this ethical? Should this sort of practice be rewarded? That is for each person to decide for themselves.
Caryn Rogosky
Dieter
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 10 2009, 09:20 PM) *
<snipped>6. There is very strong and mounting evidence to support the belief that Leila II was bred and/or raised by Prince Kemal El Din (the cousin to Prince Mohamed Aly and then the President of the RAS) -- and at this time, there is no evidence at all to prove that this is not the case. There is ZERO evidence to support any idea that the ancestry or qualifications of Leila II are any more "questionable" than any other Straight Egyptian Arabian horse. Not even one iota...never has been.<snipped>Caryn Rogosky

In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
QUOTE
Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O.
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.
diane
QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 09:55 PM) *
QUOTE
Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O.

In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.


Regarding Exochorda, this correspondence, as presented, simply states that Exochorda was in private ownership, nothing else. It does not state, as you suggest - "...this mare was not owned by any royalty..." The statement about Arabians obtained from royalty pertains only to the EAO El Zahraa stud owned Arabians.

Dieter
QUOTE (diane @ Mar 19 2012, 08:24 AM) *
In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.


Regarding Exochorda, this correspondence, as presented, simply states that Exochorda was in private ownership, nothing else. It does not state, as you suggest - "...this mare was not owned by any royalty..." The statement about Arabians obtained from royalty pertains only to the EAO El Zahraa stud owned Arabians.
We will agree to disagree. The EAO has NEVER used and STILL DOES NOT USE this blood because it was not owned by any royalty.

"Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O."
diane
QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 10:32 PM) *
We will agree to disagree. The EAO has NEVER used and STILL DOES NOT USE this blood because it was not owned by any royalty.

"Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O."

Questions:

Has what you have bolded ever been in dispute?

Does what you have bolded specifically state that Exochorda wasn't at some time in the ownership that could have been royally connected?

MHuprich
Liz, are you saying the EAO only used horses that were previously owned by royalty? I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying.
Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 12:55 PM) *
In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.



No one ever claimed she was part of El Zahraa...of course she was not! El Zahraa was not even in existence at that time. The EAO did not state that this mare was NOT OWNED BY ANY ROYALTY. They stated that she did not belong to El Zahraa, but by a private breeder. The members of the Royal family WERE private breeders. The EAO did not state that she was not owned by a member of the Royal family, because they could not. They do not know the identities of all of the horses that were owned by all members of the Royal family -- no one knows because some of them didn't have complete stud books, and many of their stud books are gone! The horses they know are the ones that were donated to the RAS or EAO, and were incorporated into the EAO program. There was no national stud book at this time.

For example, can you tell us, Liz Dieter, the names and identities of all of the horses owned, bred and in the posession of Prince Kemal El Din? Can you tell us what happened to them all when his herd was dispersed?
Dieter
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 08:47 AM) *
No one ever claimed she was part of El Zahraa...of course she was not! El Zahraa was not even in existence at that time. The EAO did not state that this mare was NOT OWNED BY ANY ROYALTY. They stated that she did not belong to El Zahraa, but by a private breeder. The members of the Royal family WERE private breeders. The EAO did not state that she was not owned by a member of the Royal family, because they could not. They do not know the identities of all of the horses that were owned by all members of the Royal family -- no one knows because many of their stud books are gone! The ones they know are the ones that were donated to the RAS or EAO, and were incorporated into the EAO program. There was no national stud book at this time.

For example, can you tell us, Liz Dieter, the names and identities of all of the horses owned, bred and in the posession of Prince Kemal El Din? Can you tell us what happened to them all when his herd was dispersed?
LOL - not going to play follow the leader with you kiddo or point to your ability to contradict yourself. We will agree to disagree on how to interpret their statement.
Dieter
QUOTE (diane @ Mar 19 2012, 08:40 AM) *
Questions:

Has what you have bolded ever been in dispute?

Does what you have bolded specifically state that Exochorda wasn't at some time in the ownership that could have been royally connected?

"Has what you have bolded ever been in dispute?" Potentially here:

QUOTE
<snipped>6. There is very strong and mounting evidence to support the belief that Leila II was bred and/or raised by Prince Kemal El Din (the cousin to Prince Mohamed Aly and then the President of the RAS) -- and at this time, there is no evidence at all to prove that this is not the case. There is ZERO evidence to support any idea that the ancestry or qualifications of Leila II are any more "questionable" than any other Straight Egyptian Arabian horse. Not even one iota...never has been.<snipped>Caryn Rogosky

"Does what you have bolded specifically state that Exochorda wasn't at some time in the ownership that could have been royally connected?" The entire statement must be read in context. Thus she was not owned by royalty at any time.


Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 01:54 PM) *
LOL - not going to play follow the leader with you kiddo or point to your ability to contradict yourself. We will agree to disagree on how to interpret their statement.



No, I won't agree to disagree on this point -- you are misstating a fact and its clear as glass. It is not a matter of interpretation for those who know the reality of the history of the RAS. Quite frankly, your interpretation is so skewed that it is just false, and convinces me that you really do not have an understanding of the history of the RAS, the EAO and the early breeders of Egypt. Do you own a copy of the RAS History Book?
Dieter
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Mar 19 2012, 08:44 AM) *
Liz, are you saying the EAO only used horses that were previously owned by royalty? I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying.

Melissa, I am repeating what the EAO has said:
QUOTE
"Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O."
El Zahraa's breeding program includes a long history of arabians well-known and well collected from the kings, sheikhs, princes.

@moderator, Why have you removed many of the very factual threads from this forum where a great deal of facts have been revealed? If you found posts to be personally offensive, remove that post or whatever comment is offensive, but to remove entire threads full of facts is rather reckless and disrespectful of all posters and readers. Please return those threads to their proper place in history, noted as edited, if you must. To do otherwise is entirely unethical in my opinion.

To everyone, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on here if this forum is insistent on hiding fact filled posts. Though it certainly is this forum's prerogative, it cannot then be considered a forum where open, honest discussion can be had no matter that the discussion is not rosy full of sunshine and (false) hope.
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