Hello,
Last year I read a topic from Dick Reed about his rejecting mare and how he solved the problem.
I just wanted to know if in the meanwhile there a new solutions or experiences for this problem.
Greets,
Tineke
Full Version: Rejecting Mares
I don't know about others experience but the use of fluphenzine and the herbal milk flow inducer were totally successful for us. Our mare raised the foal totally normally and we put her back in foal and will use the same treatments again.
Rejecting mare - does it mean the mare doesn't accept the foal or the mare has no milk?
Thank you
Christina
Thank you
Christina
Rejecting means the dam doesn't accept the foal and let it nurse. Sometimes rejecting mares also don't produce much milk and this may be associated with them rejecting the foal.
Thank you Dick it looks as if you become my english teacher 
My experiences with this problem as a vet and as a breeder: In case of no milk I give a shot of oxytocin in combination with starting to milk the mare.
If the mare isn't used to get touched around the mammas someone has to hold her maybe even to make a little sedaton for the the first one or two drink periods of the foal.
When a foal hasn't been on the udder in the first 2 hours I start to milk and give this milk to the baby. This I will do all hours. This has 2 good points: if there is comming no milk: I will give a shot of oxytocin to the mare and in the same time I start to activate the milk production also manual. Secondly the baby even it's not strong enough to get to the udder in the first 2 hours gets the first colostral milk.
As I know that in the first couple hours for the bigger molecules the blood/milk barriere is just open I will not pass this moment with loosing this very important milk for the foal.
B]From the mother side: [/B]
1. not enough milk or not not accepting the baby
- The milk production gets activated
- the mare get used to be touched around the udder
- the mare will have her foal in front of her nose (often a problem with mares they have the first foal)
- the milkproduction will give such a huge pressure the mare will be happy when the foal starts do drink
2, a lot of milk but the baby isn't able to got the milk
- the important collostral milk get's to the baby and don't drop to the earth
- the milkproduction go on or get's inreased
[/B]For the baby:
- it get the collostralmilk, even if it's not strong enough to get up quickely enough, also the big molekules
- drinking milk produces appetite
- also a weak baby will become strong
- a strong baby don't get in danger to be hurt by her mare if she wouldn't accept the little buddy.
In my vet life I had just one only mare nothing helped to bring her milkproduction in function. Here the baby had to be separated and a little goat - 2 weeks old - became her good friend.
By the way this was a funny story:
the colt and the goat became good friends. The colt was very strong and half a year later he went on a pastern for young stallions without any problems.
The owner told me very proud the story about when I had to do some other vet stuff on his farm. I asked what happened with the goat and they said: well here she is (
in the darkest corner of the stable!) and she will go to the slaughter we think. I was shocked and said: well this is not fair, she helped you so much and this is now her destiny?
Next day I came to the clinic (in those days I worked as a vet in a horse clinic). I opend the door to the office I had together with the chief of the clinic. I said: what a strong smell is it here? My chief started to laugh and said: well you got a present this morning, Mr. XY was here this morning and said this is his thanks for your good job.
This was when I got my goat I called her "Cleocipedes" - from this time I had no more flowers in my garden, to ride with my stallion became a problem because she wanted to come with but she was pretty quick out of breast and she had the tendency to walk just in front of my stallion so he had to stop all the time.
Well in the end she was a sweet-tooth and that costed her life. One of my girls didn't closed the door by key and Cleocipedes opened the door and was eating to much grain - I brought her to the hospital and we took out all that stuff and brought in from a cow stomach bacteria flora again. She recovered for a short time but this ketoses produced a stomace ulcus that after 3 weeks brouke through and this ws the end of my dear Cleo. My stallion missed her and even I got my flowers back - I missed her too.
Here Cleocipedes with my first foal and a child from the neighbourhood , 20 years ago is that now
Christina
My experiences with this problem as a vet and as a breeder: In case of no milk I give a shot of oxytocin in combination with starting to milk the mare.
If the mare isn't used to get touched around the mammas someone has to hold her maybe even to make a little sedaton for the the first one or two drink periods of the foal.
When a foal hasn't been on the udder in the first 2 hours I start to milk and give this milk to the baby. This I will do all hours. This has 2 good points: if there is comming no milk: I will give a shot of oxytocin to the mare and in the same time I start to activate the milk production also manual. Secondly the baby even it's not strong enough to get to the udder in the first 2 hours gets the first colostral milk.
As I know that in the first couple hours for the bigger molecules the blood/milk barriere is just open I will not pass this moment with loosing this very important milk for the foal.
B]From the mother side: [/B]
1. not enough milk or not not accepting the baby
- The milk production gets activated
- the mare get used to be touched around the udder
- the mare will have her foal in front of her nose (often a problem with mares they have the first foal)
- the milkproduction will give such a huge pressure the mare will be happy when the foal starts do drink
2, a lot of milk but the baby isn't able to got the milk
- the important collostral milk get's to the baby and don't drop to the earth
- the milkproduction go on or get's inreased
[/B]For the baby:
- it get the collostralmilk, even if it's not strong enough to get up quickely enough, also the big molekules
- drinking milk produces appetite
- also a weak baby will become strong
- a strong baby don't get in danger to be hurt by her mare if she wouldn't accept the little buddy.
In my vet life I had just one only mare nothing helped to bring her milkproduction in function. Here the baby had to be separated and a little goat - 2 weeks old - became her good friend.
By the way this was a funny story:
the colt and the goat became good friends. The colt was very strong and half a year later he went on a pastern for young stallions without any problems.
The owner told me very proud the story about when I had to do some other vet stuff on his farm. I asked what happened with the goat and they said: well here she is (
in the darkest corner of the stable!) and she will go to the slaughter we think. I was shocked and said: well this is not fair, she helped you so much and this is now her destiny?Next day I came to the clinic (in those days I worked as a vet in a horse clinic). I opend the door to the office I had together with the chief of the clinic. I said: what a strong smell is it here? My chief started to laugh and said: well you got a present this morning, Mr. XY was here this morning and said this is his thanks for your good job.
This was when I got my goat I called her "Cleocipedes" - from this time I had no more flowers in my garden, to ride with my stallion became a problem because she wanted to come with but she was pretty quick out of breast and she had the tendency to walk just in front of my stallion so he had to stop all the time.
Well in the end she was a sweet-tooth and that costed her life. One of my girls didn't closed the door by key and Cleocipedes opened the door and was eating to much grain - I brought her to the hospital and we took out all that stuff and brought in from a cow stomach bacteria flora again. She recovered for a short time but this ketoses produced a stomace ulcus that after 3 weeks brouke through and this ws the end of my dear Cleo. My stallion missed her and even I got my flowers back - I missed her too.
Here Cleocipedes with my first foal and a child from the neighbourhood , 20 years ago is that now
Christina
One thing I have forgotten: in all cases after a couple hours or at least half a day each baby learnt to drink from the udder and her moms accepted the baby.
Christina
Christina
Dick - could you give more details about the two products you mention please, including how you used them? (Fluphenzine and Herbal milk replacer).
I described the treatments in this link:
http://www.straightegyptians.com/forum2/in...rejecting+mares
http://www.straightegyptians.com/forum2/in...rejecting+mares
ta muchly
cheers
cheers
Dick, a bit off topic, but Kordelas looks simply marvellous in your Avatar.
@Dick
that's a very interesting story - thank you.
3 questions:
Did you tried first by Oxytocin or Prolactin, the 2 hormons of hypophysis that induces milk?
Did you just had this one shot and the behaviour changed for the rest of of nursing period?
Did you tried after she accepted the foal next birth without medication?
I know that drug from human medicin (I also studied human medicin), there it's used against shizophrenia. There the medicin starts just after a couple week to show an effect. For that reason they are using depot injection (Fluphenacin-deconat (intra muscle inj. all 2 weeks) or Haloperidol-decanoat (i.m. alle 4 weeks). Here the drug has his effect on the limbic system (emotions)and the front laps (hallucinations) of the brain.
A side effect is also that this group of drugs (Phenothiazine) has an antagonismus to Dopamin, here Fluphenazine a very selected to the D2-receptor :
-in the substancia nigrans (brain: extrapyramidal Mesencephalon = where Parkinsson disease is located) so maybe stiff muscles could be a side effect of medication
- in the hypophysis an increased Polactin production (milk production increased)
- in Medulla oblongata an antiemetic result (no more vomiting - not a problem in horses)
Big question in case of a mare with rejecting problem is now: does the horse has a psychosis problem, that causes in the limbic system or a dopamin receptor blocade problem that doesn't allowed the hormon Prolactin of the hypophysis to go into the blood and from there to the mamma to induce milkproduction.
I think this is a very important question to find out because a breeder should find out if he causes a future problem in the breed.
Sorry don't take it personal - by this way it's not very fair from the polish stud they didn't informed you about the horses problem.
What kind of homoeopahtie you was using and in what potency?
Thank you
Christina
that's a very interesting story - thank you.
3 questions:
Did you tried first by Oxytocin or Prolactin, the 2 hormons of hypophysis that induces milk?
Did you just had this one shot and the behaviour changed for the rest of of nursing period?
Did you tried after she accepted the foal next birth without medication?
I know that drug from human medicin (I also studied human medicin), there it's used against shizophrenia. There the medicin starts just after a couple week to show an effect. For that reason they are using depot injection (Fluphenacin-deconat (intra muscle inj. all 2 weeks) or Haloperidol-decanoat (i.m. alle 4 weeks). Here the drug has his effect on the limbic system (emotions)and the front laps (hallucinations) of the brain.
A side effect is also that this group of drugs (Phenothiazine) has an antagonismus to Dopamin, here Fluphenazine a very selected to the D2-receptor :
-in the substancia nigrans (brain: extrapyramidal Mesencephalon = where Parkinsson disease is located) so maybe stiff muscles could be a side effect of medication
- in the hypophysis an increased Polactin production (milk production increased)
- in Medulla oblongata an antiemetic result (no more vomiting - not a problem in horses)
Big question in case of a mare with rejecting problem is now: does the horse has a psychosis problem, that causes in the limbic system or a dopamin receptor blocade problem that doesn't allowed the hormon Prolactin of the hypophysis to go into the blood and from there to the mamma to induce milkproduction.
I think this is a very important question to find out because a breeder should find out if he causes a future problem in the breed.
Sorry don't take it personal - by this way it's not very fair from the polish stud they didn't informed you about the horses problem.
What kind of homoeopahtie you was using and in what potency?
Thank you
Christina
Hello,
We have a rejecting mare at home, this is here situation very briefly:
Due to medical problems of the mare she had to be taken as a foal from her mother and bottled fed. She was brought up without any other horses so you can imagine what happened when she was sold and came in a herd of 20 horses!
She had 3 very beautiful foals and all 3 of them were rejected. She turned into a monster when the foals were awake or just moved. She just wanted to kill them. I must say that there was already a difference between the first and the last foal. I think they kept the last one almost 14 days with the mare.
The people from whom I bought her bottled fed the foals, but unfortunatly 2 foals died after a few months due to diseases.
Now the mare is already 18 years, but she changed a lot towards other horses after coming to our place and had to live together with only 2 other mares.
But I 'm still too afraid to breed with her. It's such a shame that we can't breed her, she and her full sisters already produced such nice foals.
I can understand that if you sedate the mares, that everything goes ok, but you have to stop at a certain time with the drug. What will happen then?
greets,
Tineke
We have a rejecting mare at home, this is here situation very briefly:
Due to medical problems of the mare she had to be taken as a foal from her mother and bottled fed. She was brought up without any other horses so you can imagine what happened when she was sold and came in a herd of 20 horses!
She had 3 very beautiful foals and all 3 of them were rejected. She turned into a monster when the foals were awake or just moved. She just wanted to kill them. I must say that there was already a difference between the first and the last foal. I think they kept the last one almost 14 days with the mare.
The people from whom I bought her bottled fed the foals, but unfortunatly 2 foals died after a few months due to diseases.
Now the mare is already 18 years, but she changed a lot towards other horses after coming to our place and had to live together with only 2 other mares.
But I 'm still too afraid to breed with her. It's such a shame that we can't breed her, she and her full sisters already produced such nice foals.
I can understand that if you sedate the mares, that everything goes ok, but you have to stop at a certain time with the drug. What will happen then?
greets,
Tineke
>Did you tried first by Oxytocin or Prolactin, the 2 hormons of hypophysis that induces milk?
Yes we used oxytocin when she was in the process of rejecting her first foal with us. It was obvious on the first foal with us that she was not maternal with the foal. She pinned her ears when she looked at the foal, she never nickered to the foal, she never smelled or licked the foal. She had small mammary glands and never produced much milk even though we sedated her and forced her to let the foal nurse over the course of several days. It never got better and her milk started drying up.
>Did you just had this one shot and the behaviour changed for the rest of of nursing period?
Yes we gave her a shot of fluphenazine about 7 days before she had the foal. She was immediately maternal with the foal. She looked at the foal, she nickered to the foal, she licked the foal just like a normal mare. She still has slow on producing milk but this time she let the foal nurse and the milk flow increased as the foal nursed. Within 24 hours her mammary glands were fully developed and milk flow was normal.
>Did you tried after she accepted the foal next birth without medication?
She is due to foal in a couple of months. We intend to use fluphenazine on her again as the consequences of a foal rejection are so great. I suspect that she might be OK given her 100% successful foal rearing experience.
>What kind of homoeopahtie you was using and in what potency?
It is a homeopathic material from France that we got from Joanne Maxwell. It is called Wombyl. It is a liquid which comes in about 5ml vials. We gave two vials shortly after delivery and then 1 per day for several more days until the milk flow was fully established.
>Big question in case of a mare with rejecting problem is now: does the horse has a psychosis problem, that causes in the limbic system or a dopamin receptor blocade problem that doesn't allowed the hormon Prolactin of the hypophysis to go into the blood and from there to the mamma to induce milkproduction.
The fluphenazine clearly impacts the mares "thinking". The mare is NOT sedated. We had sedated the mare with her first foal and she would still get upset even though she was very sleepy. With the fluphenazine the mare acted normally towards the foal while without the fluphenazine she did not want the foal. It was obvious in all of her behaviors. I agree this is a very interesting discovery about what triggers "maternal instinct"
Yes we used oxytocin when she was in the process of rejecting her first foal with us. It was obvious on the first foal with us that she was not maternal with the foal. She pinned her ears when she looked at the foal, she never nickered to the foal, she never smelled or licked the foal. She had small mammary glands and never produced much milk even though we sedated her and forced her to let the foal nurse over the course of several days. It never got better and her milk started drying up.
>Did you just had this one shot and the behaviour changed for the rest of of nursing period?
Yes we gave her a shot of fluphenazine about 7 days before she had the foal. She was immediately maternal with the foal. She looked at the foal, she nickered to the foal, she licked the foal just like a normal mare. She still has slow on producing milk but this time she let the foal nurse and the milk flow increased as the foal nursed. Within 24 hours her mammary glands were fully developed and milk flow was normal.
>Did you tried after she accepted the foal next birth without medication?
She is due to foal in a couple of months. We intend to use fluphenazine on her again as the consequences of a foal rejection are so great. I suspect that she might be OK given her 100% successful foal rearing experience.
>What kind of homoeopahtie you was using and in what potency?
It is a homeopathic material from France that we got from Joanne Maxwell. It is called Wombyl. It is a liquid which comes in about 5ml vials. We gave two vials shortly after delivery and then 1 per day for several more days until the milk flow was fully established.
>Big question in case of a mare with rejecting problem is now: does the horse has a psychosis problem, that causes in the limbic system or a dopamin receptor blocade problem that doesn't allowed the hormon Prolactin of the hypophysis to go into the blood and from there to the mamma to induce milkproduction.
The fluphenazine clearly impacts the mares "thinking". The mare is NOT sedated. We had sedated the mare with her first foal and she would still get upset even though she was very sleepy. With the fluphenazine the mare acted normally towards the foal while without the fluphenazine she did not want the foal. It was obvious in all of her behaviors. I agree this is a very interesting discovery about what triggers "maternal instinct"
Hi Dick,
How long do you give the fluphenazine? As long as the foal is with the mare? I
f you stop giving the drug, the thinking of the mare will change back, no?
Tineke
How long do you give the fluphenazine? As long as the foal is with the mare? I
f you stop giving the drug, the thinking of the mare will change back, no?
Tineke
We gave fluphenazine about 7 days before the foal arrived, obviously this is a guess. You give the drug about every 10 days until the foal arrives.
We then gave her a injection after the foal arrived and then two more after successive 10 day periods. She was totally normal with the foal when we stopped the injections.
We then gave her a injection after the foal arrived and then two more after successive 10 day periods. She was totally normal with the foal when we stopped the injections.
Very interesting topic.. I've had similar case with my - now deceased - mare a few years ago. She did not accept her (first and final) foal right after birth. The vet who was immediately called was not a big help as he had no experiences with such cases. So, I was left alone with my problem .. Fortunately, I was able to let the foal nurse the first colostrum while 2 persons had to hold the mare to prevent her from kicking and biting. I had no choice but to keep both horses separated in 2 adjacent barns. It was a hard time that followed.. I had to teach the mare to let the foal nurse. I admit it did not happen without force.. but I finally succeeded after 2 long and dramatic weeks. Nevertheless, there was a moment after 1 week when the filly was close to not making it although I had taken her to the mare for nursing every 2 hours day and night. From that moment on I started to feed additional instant foal milk to be on the safe side.. Luckily my efforts were crowned with certain success.. After 2 weeks I could leave the foal with the mare in one barn. The mare finally had learned to let the foal nurse although she did not like it and showed the foal clearly by her teeth when she felt it was enough. But this little thing was clever enough to escape the teeth.. and had a strong will to survive..
After 3 weeks I could let the 2 out to the herd into the pastures. In the end the filly also learned to behave like a horse. ( During the first weeks she considered me to be her mum..).
However, the filly has grown into a pretty young mare meanwhile.
Although I have no intention to breed for the time being I wonder what impact this experience could have on her. Can or must I expect she will also become a rejecting mare? It's good to learn that there are treatments to avoid the worst but still I'm afraid such could happen again.
I would gladly hear any experiences of other forum members in respect of fillies that have been rejected by their mothers.
After 3 weeks I could let the 2 out to the herd into the pastures. In the end the filly also learned to behave like a horse. ( During the first weeks she considered me to be her mum..).
However, the filly has grown into a pretty young mare meanwhile.
Although I have no intention to breed for the time being I wonder what impact this experience could have on her. Can or must I expect she will also become a rejecting mare? It's good to learn that there are treatments to avoid the worst but still I'm afraid such could happen again.
I would gladly hear any experiences of other forum members in respect of fillies that have been rejected by their mothers.
Dick, I talked with my vet about this today and he has never used the drug for this. I was wondering if you would be willing to write the protocol down for me so i can give it to him. I woudl really like to try this on two of my mares,. I know the one mare rejected her foal last year and Iwas just told that the new mare rejected her foal too... I am not looking forward to two rejected foals... Please help! Kimberli
info@zeeranch if you can't post it here
info@zeeranch if you can't post it here
I'd also like to have the information for my vet. I have a mare that rejects her foals too. She had three foals before I got her and then one foal since I have had her. I managed to get the mare to allow me to milk her and also I got her to nurse the foal the first 24 hours. She just stood there and shook while the foal nursed. She had tons of milk. After that I took the foal away and raised her by bottle feeding her every hour for the first week and then every two hours for the next two months and then reduced it to every four hours. Needless to say I don't want to do that again but this mare has wonderful foals and they are mostly fillies. My e-mail is ibriz@nb.sympatico.ca in case the information isn't posted here.
I laughed about Christina's goat story. Our filly got a goat for company as well. She was a poor skinny little thing, about a year old and scared of everything. The filly loved her right away and they were real pals. After the filly was weaned we gave her to an old mare that would be good to her and she learned to be a horse. The goat moved in with the mare who had the foal and the mare loves the goat. The goat eats my flowers and plants, she walks in front of the horses when we ride and goes for walks with me. If I don't watch her she dumps the feed barrels and eats the feed. The dogs are scared of her. She is as fat as a pig now. But what can I do. By now we love the goat too.
Here is a picture of the filly and her goat.
I laughed about Christina's goat story. Our filly got a goat for company as well. She was a poor skinny little thing, about a year old and scared of everything. The filly loved her right away and they were real pals. After the filly was weaned we gave her to an old mare that would be good to her and she learned to be a horse. The goat moved in with the mare who had the foal and the mare loves the goat. The goat eats my flowers and plants, she walks in front of the horses when we ride and goes for walks with me. If I don't watch her she dumps the feed barrels and eats the feed. The dogs are scared of her. She is as fat as a pig now. But what can I do. By now we love the goat too.
Here is a picture of the filly and her goat.
>>How much fluphenazine do you give ?
1.5ml of fluphenazine decanoate. Make sure it is the decanoate because that is the long lasting type. There is fluphenazine hydrochloride which disappears much more rapidly.
>>When do you give it?
About 1 week before the mare is due to foal and another shortly after the foal is born and another in ten days. The foal should be well accepted by this time.
1.5ml of fluphenazine decanoate. Make sure it is the decanoate because that is the long lasting type. There is fluphenazine hydrochloride which disappears much more rapidly.
>>When do you give it?
About 1 week before the mare is due to foal and another shortly after the foal is born and another in ten days. The foal should be well accepted by this time.
Hi Dick:
Thanks so much. I will certainly be passing this on to my vet and hopefully things will be a lot less complicated for us this spring.
Thanks so much. I will certainly be passing this on to my vet and hopefully things will be a lot less complicated for us this spring.
Dear Nancy
I just rememberd how it was with Cleocipedes. Take care on her
Christina
I just rememberd how it was with Cleocipedes. Take care on her
Christina
Hi Christina:
We now have a "goat proof" door on the feed room. No more crashing feed barrels! Goat thinks I have spoiled all her fun. Probably she will drive us crazy for many years since she is only 4 now.
We now have a "goat proof" door on the feed room. No more crashing feed barrels! Goat thinks I have spoiled all her fun. Probably she will drive us crazy for many years since she is only 4 now.
Hi Dick
After reading about this subject last year and emailing you for more information I discussed it at length with my vet.He contacted the manufacturers of the product here in Australia and got the relevant info about the drug.He is willing to give it a try with our mare who has so far rejected the 3 foals shes had.I wasnt going to breed this mare again but as the vet has no objection to trying the Modecate(aus trade name) I have bred her this past season and she's due in October this year.One thing that is interesting and could also be contributing to her rejection is a sarcoid on her udder which we have had removed a few months ago.
I'm now anxiously waiting until she's due to foal.
I'd really like to thank you for bringing this treatment to peoples attention and all the help you've given about the subject.
Fingers crossed it works for us to.
Cheers Mel
After reading about this subject last year and emailing you for more information I discussed it at length with my vet.He contacted the manufacturers of the product here in Australia and got the relevant info about the drug.He is willing to give it a try with our mare who has so far rejected the 3 foals shes had.I wasnt going to breed this mare again but as the vet has no objection to trying the Modecate(aus trade name) I have bred her this past season and she's due in October this year.One thing that is interesting and could also be contributing to her rejection is a sarcoid on her udder which we have had removed a few months ago.
I'm now anxiously waiting until she's due to foal.
I'd really like to thank you for bringing this treatment to peoples attention and all the help you've given about the subject.
Fingers crossed it works for us to.
Cheers Mel
Christine and I are so glad to help. It really is so sad to see a foal deperately trying to nurse and have the mare try to kick them. Anything we can do to spare a foal, the mare and the owner this trauma is worth doing.
I've mailed it for the second time to a vet, hopefully I'll get a positive response this time!!
Fingers crossed!! I really want to try this, but I need a vet that will support me!!!!!
Tineke
Fingers crossed!! I really want to try this, but I need a vet that will support me!!!!!
Tineke
I've been asked privately who manufacturers Fluphenazine Decanoate.
It is manufactured in the US by Gensia SIcor Pharmaceuticals at a strength of 25mg/ml. I don't know if they are the world wide suppliers of this drug. The drug is NOT a veternarian drug it is "a long acting antipsychotic drug intended for the use in chronic schizophrenia in humans".
If people here have successfully located the drug in Europe they may post who manufacturers the drug there.
It is manufactured in the US by Gensia SIcor Pharmaceuticals at a strength of 25mg/ml. I don't know if they are the world wide suppliers of this drug. The drug is NOT a veternarian drug it is "a long acting antipsychotic drug intended for the use in chronic schizophrenia in humans".
If people here have successfully located the drug in Europe they may post who manufacturers the drug there.
I thought that it might be of interest to know the results I had using the Fluphenazine Decanote on my mare that rejected her foal. Unfortunately it did not work for her. I gave the first injection 7 days prior to foaling. According to the directions it should have taken two to four days to work. The first two days the mare slept a good portion of the day and then she was back to normal behavior. When she foaled she did not attack the foal but she kept him boxed in a corner in front of her and wouldn't let him around her side to nurse. She was really beside herself. As well she had a retained placenta and needed Oxytocin. Finally in desperation, we had to find a way to catch her and take the foal away. Now we are milking her at one hour intervals and bottle feeding the foal. Thank the Lord she will let us milk her. He is fine by the way. Big and strong and fat. And beautiful
Part of this situation might be our fault. My vet did not want to give a 1.5ml dose. The pharmacist said a 2ml dose was toxic to horses and there might be side effects from 1.5ml. The pharmacist said he would only recommend a .75 ml dose. I gave 1ml at 7 days prior to foaling (vet's recommendation) and .75 at foaling. I had side effects both times. First, as I mentioned, the mare slept for two days. The second time she had quite bad twitching of her muscles. In the end, I was no further ahead, and maybe not as far ahead because this time she wouldn't nurse the foal at all and the other time she did nurse her foal for a day. The mare is not a very big horse and that is one of the reasons the vet was reluctant to give a bigger dose.
I'd be really interested in hearing if anyone else tried this drug and if so, what results they had. I am glad I tried it because if I had not I would always wonder if it might have helped.
Part of this situation might be our fault. My vet did not want to give a 1.5ml dose. The pharmacist said a 2ml dose was toxic to horses and there might be side effects from 1.5ml. The pharmacist said he would only recommend a .75 ml dose. I gave 1ml at 7 days prior to foaling (vet's recommendation) and .75 at foaling. I had side effects both times. First, as I mentioned, the mare slept for two days. The second time she had quite bad twitching of her muscles. In the end, I was no further ahead, and maybe not as far ahead because this time she wouldn't nurse the foal at all and the other time she did nurse her foal for a day. The mare is not a very big horse and that is one of the reasons the vet was reluctant to give a bigger dose.
I'd be really interested in hearing if anyone else tried this drug and if so, what results they had. I am glad I tried it because if I had not I would always wonder if it might have helped.
Winiarnia, our rejecting mare, delivered another foal on 24 April. We used fluphenazine again this year. We used 1.5 cc about two weeks before delivery and then another 1.5 cc about two days before delivery. Winiarnia is a big mare and we saw no side effects; she was not sedated or had any twitches.
She had a normal delivery and accepted the foal immediately and has been a normal mother in all regards since then.
I think that rejecting mares are not all caused by the same things. I think fluphenazine works like magic on some mares but doesn't help others. I think it is worth a try... if it doesn't work it probably hasn't done any harm. If it does work you have something special.
She had a normal delivery and accepted the foal immediately and has been a normal mother in all regards since then.
I think that rejecting mares are not all caused by the same things. I think fluphenazine works like magic on some mares but doesn't help others. I think it is worth a try... if it doesn't work it probably hasn't done any harm. If it does work you have something special.
So, you are saying give ONE shot seven days before the mare foals and not one shot per day for seven days before the mare foals?
There seem to be several forms of rejectors - we had great success with a homoepathic remedy and oxytocin combined and the mare who rejected her first foal has been normal to overprotective with her next four. However I know this remedy did not work for others.
What I am interested in is contributing factors to rejecting.
There seems to be some common theme in bloodlines, from anecdotal eveidence it seems rarer in Polish Russian and Spanish lines and commoner in Egyptian and Crabbet lines, but it is hard to say with a study being done. It is also fair to say that rejected fillies are at very high risk of being rejectors and should be medicated as such automatically, which can prevent them from showing the problem.
There are other things to consider to,
did the mare grow up in a herd environment ?
was she a 'diva' show filly in her youth ?
has she ever had a traumatic operation ?
however there also seem to be more and more cases and it would also be interesting to know what make of food these horses are on, iand what additives they get in case there is something in that.
there are many more questions to be asked to to get a full idea of why this is happening so often in Arabians.
I would be quite interested to do this study and send out a questionnaire. Can anyone think of other potential contributing factors that they think should be investigated ?
emma
What I am interested in is contributing factors to rejecting.
There seems to be some common theme in bloodlines, from anecdotal eveidence it seems rarer in Polish Russian and Spanish lines and commoner in Egyptian and Crabbet lines, but it is hard to say with a study being done. It is also fair to say that rejected fillies are at very high risk of being rejectors and should be medicated as such automatically, which can prevent them from showing the problem.
There are other things to consider to,
did the mare grow up in a herd environment ?
was she a 'diva' show filly in her youth ?
has she ever had a traumatic operation ?
however there also seem to be more and more cases and it would also be interesting to know what make of food these horses are on, iand what additives they get in case there is something in that.
there are many more questions to be asked to to get a full idea of why this is happening so often in Arabians.
I would be quite interested to do this study and send out a questionnaire. Can anyone think of other potential contributing factors that they think should be investigated ?
emma
Presently sitting in a chair rocking back and forth - head in hands - with the rantings of a complete lunatic - yes I have another rejecter !!!!
This particular mare was rejected herself but is no where near as bad as her mum. I have tried fluphenazine with her mother since with no joy but this mare is just a complete bag with no maternal instincts whatsoever.
The daughter is feeding her daughter ( oh I can hear the Omen music playing ! ) every hour in the day with just my voice ( a little tetchy now
) as restraint and at night she is tied and hobbled with her baby. Not an ideal situation but............. I had her on Oxytocin, Finadyne and ACP in the beginning and then tried Pulsatilla which definately had a calming effect on her. She accepts it has a chore but is in a vile mood in the mornings when released from her restaints. Today I have a horse whisperer and healer coming. I'm open to anything and I WILL break this cycle !
I'll keep you informed.
This particular mare was rejected herself but is no where near as bad as her mum. I have tried fluphenazine with her mother since with no joy but this mare is just a complete bag with no maternal instincts whatsoever.
The daughter is feeding her daughter ( oh I can hear the Omen music playing ! ) every hour in the day with just my voice ( a little tetchy now
) as restraint and at night she is tied and hobbled with her baby. Not an ideal situation but............. I had her on Oxytocin, Finadyne and ACP in the beginning and then tried Pulsatilla which definately had a calming effect on her. She accepts it has a chore but is in a vile mood in the mornings when released from her restaints. Today I have a horse whisperer and healer coming. I'm open to anything and I WILL break this cycle !I'll keep you informed.
"I would be quite interested to do this study and send out a questionnaire. Can anyone think of other potential contributing factors that they think should be investigated ?"
Hello Emma,
I think it could be also worth to ask how the mare was bred...natural or insemination.
And if it was the first foal.
regards
Babette
Hello Emma,
I think it could be also worth to ask how the mare was bred...natural or insemination.
And if it was the first foal.
regards
Babette
I too am of the opinion that there are different factors that contribute to rejecting mares. The more I think of it I am sure that my mare is probably rejecting her foal because of her birth situation. She was born 7 weeks premature ( not even any hair) and spent time in a neonatal unit. From talking to the breeding manager where she was foaled, I understand that she did not spend much time with her dam and was very attached to people as opposed to other horses. She is a straight egyptian as far as bloodlines go but I think in her case it is probably caused by some issue connected to her early birth. I discussed this with a veterinary hospital and they agree with me.
I do feel it was worth the effort to try the fluphenazine. She has wonderful foals. I was hoping for a miracle here, I guess, and didn't get it. I'd be really interested in any study that was done on this subject because the mare is really worth making an extra effort to find a solution.
I do feel it was worth the effort to try the fluphenazine. She has wonderful foals. I was hoping for a miracle here, I guess, and didn't get it. I'd be really interested in any study that was done on this subject because the mare is really worth making an extra effort to find a solution.
This does not apply to true rejecters but may be of help to others. I had a mare on breeding loan, supposed to be an easy breeder and great mother. Her owners rang up around the time the mare was due to see if the foal had arrived, it hadn't, and then said "just one little thing, she won't feed the foal for the first couple of days, you have to milk her but after a couple of days she is fine". She had two foals for them and was the same with both. Great, bit late to tell me so I had to rush out and buy a bottle!
The mare had her foal and was a great mother, no problem at all. They were "fussy" people and I wonder if to much interference and/or noise just puts the mare off. The bottle had been in the cupboard ever since and came in useful this year when my friend's mare rejected her foal! I know she wasn't really a "rejecter" but may be useful for others. Just be there in case you are needed but let mare and foal bond for the first hour or two without any interference except any that is necessary.
Regards
Barbara
The mare had her foal and was a great mother, no problem at all. They were "fussy" people and I wonder if to much interference and/or noise just puts the mare off. The bottle had been in the cupboard ever since and came in useful this year when my friend's mare rejected her foal! I know she wasn't really a "rejecter" but may be useful for others. Just be there in case you are needed but let mare and foal bond for the first hour or two without any interference except any that is necessary.
Regards
Barbara
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