Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Breeding Se Arabians
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - ‹bersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
KGH
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

Barbara Griffith once wrote an article about what are the things that a good breeder should do in order to be succesful. We've read the article from Judi Forbis about what a breeder is, and we've read many posts on this forum about what it takes to be a good breeder.

I have to think it goes back to several things which are responsible for formulating success when breeding SE horses.

Bart describes in another thread, about that 'gut feeling' in regards to horses that where you just 'know' what is in a horse and why you think he will work.

I think we have a good mix on this forum. Some are more focused a certain lines of horses, and others are taking finished horses and breeding them to each other to get more of them. One looks to developing lines of horses , and one looks to survey from the top to get a ready made result and take a little here and there to start breeding. While neither is necessarily wrong, nor should we be at ends with one another, I think that we can benefit by explaining some of our logic and methods to gain more understanding.

It seem though that we see less and lees of those who develope a group of horses which are known to be a specific type, common lines, centralized focus on a specific bloodgroup,etc. and more who are taking one of these to go with one of those, and on and on.
Fewer breeders are breeding horses past a 1 or 2 generations and are more consistantly changing their lines of horses.

Please share your thoughts on this subject so we can all gain a better understanding.

I am wondering what line or group of horses are you known for ?
What are your horses known for?
Sumerlan
Kelly:

I have been watching this go unanswered all day! I think you have covered it all and folks don't know where to jump in ... what specifically are you reflectively searching for here? Just trying to move this thread along a bit ...

Susan
Sumerlan
KGH
Hi Susan,
I changed my post a bit to ask more specifically what I was hoping to find out.

I think part of the reason we 'may be' having a harder time finding the right horse or selling our horses is we aren't identifying who we are as breeders and what are horses are in terms of what they are known for.

Some of our long standing breeders developed their own look, type, style, quality in horses, but we are seeing less and less of that every day.

When the SE or preservation type organizations put on educational seminars about horses, bloodlines, groups of horses representing a strain, or ancesteral element, those giving the seminars always reflect back to decades ago when you knew who a breeder was and what his horses were. Today we see less of this.

I was put off by one breeder lately who said, nobody cares about this or the history or what happened 20-30-50-100 years ago. All you have to do is, just go buy a pretty horse breed it, and sell it. I find it hard to imagine this is what breeding SE horses has become. Or to just go and find a good looking mare , breed it to a top show stallion, sell the foal, and viola..you are succesful. I find this to be a bit disheartening because these horses don't generally become great breeding stock, because they aren't bred to produce, just bred by show names and what's hot. In the meantime though I have to stop and think....and right there IS the difference between a merchant of horses and a horse breeder.
Sumerlan
Kelly:

History is critically important; and it must be studied for one to understand the past in order to develop the future.

I find your post quite reflective and I have often wondered a few of the same things. Have we, as present breeders, seen the 'history' of our breed disappear with our longtime breeders slowly quitting ... one by one?

I have pondered why this may be happening myself and so will name some reasons I have come up with in my mind. 1. The element of "time" within that breeder's lifetime is a consideration. How long does that breeder actually have in his/her lifetime to create or stamp a "look" or program? 2. Quantity/quality of horses / breedings / progeny within that breeder's herd is another consideration. If the time factor is limited, the only way to achieve a 'look' or 'program' is to breed a good quantity per year in order to achieve "consistency or a look". 3. And let's not forget money ... it makes the world go round but supports the ability to breed. 4. And some of us are just getting started! It takes years and years to develop one's eye, type and fundamental purpose(s) ... of what, as a breeder, we are seeking to achieve. Making critical decisions on mares is the initial outset/purpose. Selectively seeking a stallion or stallion(s) to enhance those mares ... takes time and availability of that stallion!!

There are other reasons ... like mindset of a breeder(s). Have our 'mindsets' been altered by living in a world filled with instant gratification?

When our peers began back in the '50's', '60's', '70's' and '80's' .. breeding meant live cover only for the most part .. these breeders HAD to breed to their own stock or drive to breed a mare to an outside stallion. They had such different limitations then. And so their programs developed from such a different standpoint and one thing for certain .. it took time to develop those programs. But with time, the generations unfolded, each program into it's own producing generations of breeding stock.

Breeders now have access to semen all over the world. Instant gratification in one generation or in double packets so to speak. With breeding methods changing, the element of time disapates somewhat. But certainly, this new methodology changes the 'modern day' concept(s) of breeding.

There are still programs out there that are breeding the same lines they began with or settled into eventually and creating their own look. Stamping their progeny with that breeder's idea of type and style. This style of breeding should be cherished among all breeders. For it is proven breeding ... generation after generation.

Hope this makes sense this morning ... only one cup of coffee!

Susan
Sumerlan
Sumerlan
Well, I was gone all day working frantically in many directions and have returned to see that apparently Kelly and I cleared the room on this discussion! Was truly looking forward to everyone's thoughts here ... come on folks ... jump right in!!

Susan
Sumerlan
Billy W
I personally by no means a seasoned breeder, infact just starting out on that path. I know the horses I prefer and I have put alot of study and reading and still feel VERY wet behind the ears. I known I have always admired the Ansata horses and what they represent, and I know that not all lines are everyones taste....I chose *Ansata Ibn Halima as a foundation and so my starting point.

I have a linebred *Ansata Ibn Halima young stallion of the Nile line who also has been a wonderful family of great genetic strengths. I selected the few mares I have for him for specific females as well as male lines, and have seen similar breeding outcome and really liked what I have seen. We have chose El Halimaar and Ansata Halim Shah lines with Maar Ree female lines to cross with our young stallion and in the process of hopefully adding a Anaza El Farid bred mare to our very small group...again a cross I have seen with our stallions sire and has produced amazingly well .....so our journey is just starting and Im sure many learning curves will be apart of that and I personally look forward to the whole learning experience to see what my choices created by passion of certain lines will bring forth for us.


Billy
daphnekerby
Certainly I'm no pro but I have extremely knowledgable mentors and I have learned that it takes years to develop "a look" within your program. I think that consistency is a mark of success for a program. IOW, when every foal that hits the ground is stunning. Of course "stunning" is defined by each breeder. Some traits are more of a priority than others and trait preferences vary so much for each breeder.
Cheryl L
Susan,
I understand exactly what you wrote and they mirror my thoughts also.
Especially the transported semen. I remember when it was a big deal to have a West Coast SE on the East Coast or that hot new stallion from the South has come North.
That was also in the day of actually visiting farms and seeing their breeding progams and looking at the horses in the flesh.
Now to get something different, we are looking to other countrys, yet what is different is still along the same lines as is here.
Don't get me wrong, I am really excited with seeing the new imports coming in.

Also, like Kelly said, it is disheartening to talk to a person and they have no clue as to what is in the background of their horses and why and how they were bred the way they were.

Just agreeing with the thoughts above, as I am not a breeder. Just a long time student of the SE.
Cheryl
Sumerlan
Cheryl:

Glad to know with one cup of coffee I made some sense ... tend to ramble without half a pot. wink.gif But to me ... today's breeding methodology and availability of instant gratification is creating a vast difference between the older ways and the newer ways.

Several years ago, I personally made a commitment to myself to see as many farms as I can each year. It is one of the most important steps in my opinion. I enjoy taking off and traveling anyway to clear my mind ... what better adventure to take than to visit different programs? To see with one's own eyes the horses in the flesh, the family traits, the friendships ..old and new.. the stories of the past, present and hopes for the future?

Am getting ready to head to Kehilan Arabians in September, the Breeder's Conference in September (will be searching for farms to visit!) and on to Rancho Bulakenyo in October. Can not wait!

Kelly, have been thinking about what role I will play as a breeder .. still thinking about that one .. but certainly it will be to breed as close to our Standard as possible; and to please my own sense of type, style, conformation and functionality of each individual I create in this world.

Susan G
idan atiq
Excellent thread, thanks for starting this discussion.
It is really important to support those breeders who have a clear vision of what they are want to accomplish, because they often breed those horses that will eventually play a key role in a way that is good for the entire breed.
I started out breeding Arabians in the US and later moved to Israel. Through exposure to Al Khamsa and meeting serious preservationist breeders during the 1970's and early 1980's I became very interested in all asil and in particular SE Arabians.
As my resources were limited and I wanted to do something positive for the breed, I began by breeding Egyptian-Rabanna horses, not classified within the SE group, because it was obvious that very few breeders cared about them as they did not carry the SE label. And of course they were less expensive. Later on these horses became part of the preservation groups Sheikh Obeyd and/or Heirloom Egyptians. My name became associated with these very athletic, 'three-circle', classic horsees when I moved to Israel in 1984 and brought 2 mares and one stallion to form a breeding program which last through the end of the decade of the 90's. In association with my efforts Kibbutz Sha'ar HaGolan and Vincent Melzac of West Virginia also exported horses of this same group to Israel.
Looking back it is satisfying to see that these bloodlines have taken root in our ancient land, and there are still breeders, especially from amongst our Druse community, that are still preserving these lines and attempting as much as possible to breed within the group, and when not possible, at least within asil lines.
Towards the end of the 90s, with a new business partner, Mr. Kuti Aharon, we took the decision to eventually transform our herd to a SE herd so that this project could be more self-sustaining and it would be easier to market horses. I was always very interested in the group of horses that was sent during the late 60s and early 70s to Babolna in Hungary from Egypt because of the excellent horses that developed from that program. In 2000 my partner and I travelled to Hungary to see the program firsthand and circumstances allowed us to seize the day and buy up several key mares and fillies as well as a stalllion to start the only program we know of anywhere dedicating to preserving the 'Babolna Egyptian' -- the type of horse represented at the program's peak in the 1980s. These horses were extremely refined and elegant with perfect tail carriage, excellent movement, and carry particularly high concentrations of the blood of Yosreia, Mohga, El Sareei, and Tuhotmos. We have used the wonderful mare Gala (Ibn Galal I x Lotfeia) as our 'breeding ideal' regarding phenotype, and are in touch with breeders around the world whose horses carry Babolna blood that we eventually hope to infuse into our program. Later this year the first foal of the 4th generation of our breeding will be born.
As Babolna future is somewhat 'at risk' and the SE there much smaller than it was in the past, we hope to continue to preserve a nucleus of horses that will carry on their special traits to be used and appreciated around the world.
To get a better understanding of our vision please visit our Facebook albums at the following links:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=7604...31&l=d434b9d11d

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8405...31&l=33617fb95c

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=7604...31&l=c871413459

Thanks for allowing us to share our vision and the horses that bless our lives.

All the best,

Tzviah Idan
Dr Daniel Wigger
QUOTE (idan atiq @ Jul 8 2009, 04:22 AM)
I was always very interested in the group of horses that was sent during the late 60s and early 70s to Babolna in Hungary from Egypt because of the excellent horses that developed from that program.  In 2000 my partner and I travelled to Hungary to see the program firsthand and circumstances allowed us to seize the day and buy up several key mares and fillies as well as a stalllion to start the only program we know of anywhere dedicating to preserving the 'Babolna Egyptian' -- the type of horse represented at the program's peak in the 1980s. These horses were extremely refined and elegant with perfect tail carriage, excellent movement, and carry particularly high concentrations of the blood of Yosreia, Mohga, El Sareei, and Tuhotmos.    We have used the wonderful mare Gala (Ibn Galal I x Lotfeia)  as our 'breeding ideal' regarding phenotype, and are in touch with breeders around the world whose horses carry Babolna blood that we eventually hope to infuse into our program. Later this year the first foal of the 4th generation of our breeding will be born.
As Babolna future is somewhat 'at risk'  and the SE there much smaller than it was in the past, we hope to continue to preserve a nucleus of horses that will carry on their special traits to be used and appreciated around the world. 
*


Dear Tzviah,

you did a very good choice in this, because all the foundation horses from Babolna were chosen by Dr. Nagel & Dr. Burgert on advice of Dr. Zaher, three breeders who shared a very similar vision.
idan atiq
Dear Dr. Wigger,
Yes, absolutely. These importations had such tremendous influence worldwide both via the Babolna program, Nagels's program, other German programs established around them. That is what piqued our interest over many years. It is our privilege to try to preserve the program built around those horses that established families at Babolna. From the mid-90s they seemed to mostly have been scattered in so many directions. Hopefully we can build a nucleus carrying on the best traits of the Babolna Egyptian.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
Sumerlan
QUOTE (Dr Daniel Wigger @ Jul 8 2009, 08:01 AM)
Dear Tzviah,

you did a very good choice in this, because all the foundation horses from Babolna were chosen by Dr. Nagel & Dr. Burgert on advice of Dr. Zaher, three breeders who shared a very similar vision.
*



QUOTE (idan atiq @ Jul 8 2009, 09:02 AM)
Dear Dr. Wigger,
Yes, absolutely.  These importations had such tremendous influence worldwide both via the Babolna program, Nagels's program, other German programs established around them. That is what piqued our interest over many years.  It is our privilege to try to preserve the program built around those horses that established families at Babolna.  From the mid-90s they seemed to mostly have been scattered in so many directions.  Hopefully we can build a nucleus carrying on the best traits of the Babolna Egyptian.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
*


Tzviah Idan:

The profound importance of history played it's hand in the paths you have taken within the breed. I have been a long admirer of Dr. Nagel's program and other German programs and, in fact, am drawn to these programs intensely. I admire your dedication in preserving the Babolna Egyptian.

Although I have not yet been enabled to travel to see these programs .. one of my goals is to do so .. perhaps one day we could meet .. would love to travel with someone who could guide me to each farm where I will see my dream come to life by seeing these programs in the flesh.

Your photographic collections are stunning ... I congratulate you on your successes!

Susan G
Al Zayd NZ
It is very true the world is a changing... faster than we can imagine...

Thank goodness we have the Arabian Horse and even more that we have the Straight Egyptian Arabian Horse...

I don't agree with all that has been said because I think what should be a huge benefit of breeding Straight Egyptians is that you can follow each others results with a clearer picture, add the history and a much higher level of predicability that can allow a wana to be and/or genuine breeder alike to make a valuable contribution to the next generation. Add the latest and bestest breeding options at their finger tips or bank accounts to match and some truly unique and previously impossible results may eventuate.

What I do have to agree with, is that if you truly want to achieve a breeding program of longevity then you had better have vision, patience, stability and a very clear conviction. Don't forget to mention a good measure of ability to admit if you get it wrong and the strength of character to make the required changes.

For me I had the fortune to contract the addiction for the Arabian Horse as a youth. Dad had been drawn to the Arabian as the ultimate family pleasure horse. He had the fortune of being raised with horses being required for transportation and the farm laborer. It was also a changing world but the love of horses is instinctive.

I may have been influenced via osmosist. Dad had added to his addiction and discovered a fascination of the "modern" Egyptian horse. Straight Egyptian wasn't really considered, but this was late 1960's.

The breeding program of Holly Farm has been dedicated to producing an Arabian Horse with identifiable form and function. We have never followed fad or fashion, sometimes we have set it but stayed on course. I can only imagine what my Dad would say given that we still breed almost to the letter as he set the foundation. Where we have been and the journey and life these horses have achieved is nothing short of miraculous. We win and produce Champion Show horses and Champion Endurance horses. They provide us with a living and lifestyle second to none.

Now I have Sandie who has added her passion for the Arabian horse. While doing a "Stud Crawl" it was confirmed she was smitten with the Straight Egyptian and in particular Imperial Maakir. ...!

So "Al Zayd Straight Egyptians" was created in addition to Holly Farm. Huge influences to our vision is the inspiration of Morafic. A classic masterpiece the ultimate athlete. Unbreakable impenetrable companion. Way beyond life it's self... sculptured beauty, a strong function.... all we can imagine....!

... the responsibilities are massive and should be approached with commitment. What a privilege breeders have to make a contribution to creating the next generation.

David Marshall and Sandie MacLean
Dr Daniel Wigger
QUOTE (idan atiq @ Jul 8 2009, 08:02 AM)
Dear Dr. Wigger,
Yes, absolutely.  These importations had such tremendous influence worldwide both via the Babolna program, Nagels's program, other German programs established around them. That is what piqued our interest over many years.  It is our privilege to try to preserve the program built around those horses that established families at Babolna.  From the mid-90s they seemed to mostly have been scattered in so many directions.  Hopefully we can build a nucleus carrying on the best traits of the Babolna Egyptian.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
*


Dear Tzviah,

if one studies the original composition of the "Babolna herd" and the programs and prolific lines that developed from it, one might get a clue about the vision behind. Just out of the back of my head the following horses were chosen for Babolna:

Ibn Galal/Magdi
Ghalion
Farag

Hanan
El Thayeba
Mahiba
Hanadi
Lotfeia
El Aziza
Bint Inas
Tamria
Bint Azza I
Momtaza
Hosna

Except for El Thayeba, all mares founded lines that still produce today. There are some programs in the world that show a marked resemblance of some of their horses in type although using different letters from this small alphabet and different sires to continue. Think of NK, El Thayeba, your program and Simeon stud. This somehow indicates to me, that the above group must have had a lot of traits in common even if there are none or only few photos of some of the mares available today.
idan atiq
Dear Susan,
If you ever make plans to come to Israel my partner and I would be delighted to take you to see all of the major breeders of Arabian horses in Israel. Its a very small country and very doable in just a few days.
Thanks for your kind words.
You may always reach me directly at idanatiq@gmail.com if I can be of further service.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
idan atiq
Dear Dr. Wigger,
Yes, and yes, and yes. To complete the list there was Marah, a foundation mare for Dr. Nagel, and Bint Nazeera, who still has a thin line of influence at Babolna through the stallion Zohair I. There was also Hawa, who left three sons, none of which were used at Babolna, who was exported to America in 1977.
How I wish that we could sit down together and have a great discussion about this. We have found so few people with whom one can thoroughly discuss these particular horses and their characteristics and influence. I have been developing a private data base of photos of horses descending from the original imports to educate myself about which characteristics seem to carry on through various breeding programs. Last year I spoke at the EE in Kentucky about the SE program at Babolna and most who attended were truly astonished at the amount of worldwide influence these horses have had.
Perhaps one day we will have the pleasure of meeting and continuing this discussion in depth. I am sure that you have seen 'in the flesh' many more examples of these horses than either my partner or myself.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
dkz
Dear Tzviah Idan,

I noticed you mentioned the mare Bint Nazeera. She is close up (3rd dam) on 2 of our mares. She is the only horse in these mares pedigrees that I can't seem to find information. I would appreciate any information you would have on her, that you would be willing to share. Thank you, Deb
Sumerlan
QUOTE (idan atiq @ Jul 9 2009, 04:15 AM)
Dear Susan,
If you ever make plans to come to Israel my partner and I would be delighted to take you to see all of the major breeders of Arabian horses in Israel.  Its a very small country and very doable in just a few days.
Thanks for your kind words.
You may always reach me directly at idanatiq@gmail.com if I can be of further service.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
*


Thank you so much Tzviah! That would be just lovely ... a dream realized for certain ... and I appreciate your kindness in offering. Should you come to Texas ... the gesture is kindly returned if I may assist you and your partner with travel plans to visit our many breeders.

Susan G
elsbetha
Interesting thread, from what you have discussed am I wrong in guessing that the Babolna egyptian progamme was in existence for 25/30 years? I assume that the egyptian horses were imported to replace the old Babolna lines that perished in 1956. The original Babolna mare families were very old and produced some very good horses, Fortunately some were rescued by the poles after the second world war and have continued to breed good horses. Amurath Sahib and more recently Probat are just 2 well known stallions belonging to old Babolna mare families. I think some old Babolna lines still exist in Germany.
idan atiq
Dear Deb,
Bint Nazeera was imported as a yearling to Hungary in 1969 and died at Babolna in 1984.
According to the Hungarian Stud Book she produced a total of 9 foals, 7 fillies and 2 colts, but to my knowledge she is represented at Babolna today only through the progeny of her grandson Zohair I (Zohair x 15 Ghalion).
Here is a list of her produce
1973 filly 24 Ghalion (later sold to USA)
1974 filly (jan) 15 Ghalion
1974 filly (dec) 18 Ibn Galal
1978 filly Ibn Galal-1
1979 colt Farag II - 2
1981 filly Ibn Galal I - 2
1982 colt Ibn Galal I -2
1983 filly Ibn Galal I-6

I have yet to have found a photo of her anywhere. If you have one please post.

With best wishes,

Tzviah Idan

Tzviah Idan
dkz
Dear Tzviah Idan,

Thank you very much for the information. I wish I could help you with a photo of Bint Nazeera but I have yet to see one. If I ever find one I will post it.
I did post the only photo I could find (although not a good one) of her daughter Bint Bint Nazeera on the thread Bint Bint Nazeera und 13 Bint Nazeera.

Thank you again, Deb
idan atiq
Deb,
Here are a few photos from the Bint Nazeera family:
Her dam Nazeera, a download from internet
Her daughter 15 Ghalion, photographed in 1984 by Susan Werth-Hofbaeur
15 Ghalion's son Zohair I by Zohair (Alaa el Dine x Zebeda) in old age, photographed in 2000 with my partner Kuti Aharon at Babolna

With best wishes,
Tzviah
idan atiq
Deb,
Could you please either post the photo of Bint Bint Nazeera here or send a link to get to it?
I would be grateful,
Tzviah
Abbasiyah
QUOTE (KGH @ Jul 5 2009, 02:22 PM)
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

Barbara Griffith once wrote an article about what are the things that a good breeder should do in order to be succesful.  We've read the article from Judi Forbis about what a breeder is, and we've read many posts on this forum about what it takes to be a good breeder.

I have to think it goes back to several things which are responsible for formulating success when breeding SE horses. 

Bart describes in another thread, about  that 'gut feeling' in regards to horses  that where you just 'know' what is in a horse and why you think he will work.

I think we have a good mix on this forum.  Some are more focused a certain lines of horses,  and others are taking finished horses and breeding them to each other to get more of them.  One looks to developing lines of horses , and one looks to survey from the top to get a ready made result and take a little here and there to start breeding.  While neither is necessarily wrong, nor should we be at ends with one another, I think that we can benefit by explaining some of our logic and methods to gain more understanding.

It seem though that we see less and lees of those who develope a group of horses which are known to be a specific type, common lines, centralized focus on a specific bloodgroup,etc.  and more who are taking one of these to go with one of those, and on and on.
Fewer breeders are breeding horses past a 1 or 2 generations and are more consistantly changing their lines of horses.

Please share your thoughts on this subject so we can all gain a better understanding.

I am wondering  what line or group of horses are you known for ?
What are your horses known for?
*



Hi Kelly,

It wasn't until I paid multiple visits to the EAO and went to see many, many farms that I started to develop an eye towards what I wanted to breed. I wanted a horse that was conformationally sound, a horse with excellent movement and a horse that looked like and Arabian of course. How to achieve this goal?? well.... that came with my trial and error breeding experiences. I first started with Ansata bloodlines. I loved the type, the overall look to the Ansata horses. I then proceeded to move to some of the Gleannloch horses and I loved their structure and movement.

After visiting the EAO in the 80's and seeing most of the imported EAO horses that came to the U.S. I decided that I really wanted to preserve the root EAO mare lines as much as possible. My goal was not to necessarily put a certain look to my horses as to keep these mare lines going and to produce horses that had excellent conformation, movement and type. Type to me at that point was that it looked like an Arabian in body and head. I have never been a head breeder over structure but rather a person who wants the whole package.

I know what good structure and movement is and I want to maintain this in my herd and I have to have movement and strong bodies in my foals or I am just not happy. I can live with a good but not exotic head if the rest is there but I can't and won't accept just a head over everything else.

Having a good sound knowledge of the horses in a pedigree and how these particular horses produce is key to breeding IMHO. When I think of breeding it is in generations. I study the pedigree, the horse before me and consider the grandsire/dam, great grandsire/dam etc. etc. To have had the privilege of seeing most of the horses in current pedigrees or at least relatives to these horses and to know how certain lines will produce (faults/strenghts) is paramount to being able to produce good horses. Of course surprizes can and will crop up but you are much better prepared when you know the breeding prowess of the pedigree behind what you are trying to breed over not knowing anything about the ancestors and only relying on the phenotype of what is before you.

As I said I think in generations. We re-imported the Anter son *Serag back to the U.S. from Brasil to preserve him in SO lines and because we loved the athletic ability of Anter and the proven abilities of the mare line of Bint Om El Saad. We went with the knowledge of what Anter could do for us and what the faults of this line were and bred him to mares that would compliment him. The results we have sold worldwide. The ones we kept we are now going to use on our new stallion Bassel Al Rayyan as we need to add refinement and more type and we know that this is behind the pedigree of Bassel Al Rayyan.. While we are waiting for Bassel to grow up we are using various other stallions that we feel will blend into our vision. The female results of these breedings will be retained to use with Bassel Al Rayyan.

Gosh I hope I live long enough to see all my visions for the future laugh.gif

I don't think I will ever have an Abbasiyah look like the Ansata look as I just don't have enough horses nor time to achieve this at this point. I do think that we will be known for producing some very nice horses though as I also focus on excellent producing mare lines to achieve my goals.

I guess time will tell with respect to our horses and history. I'm happy though to be producing good horses and good Arabian horses even if I never become as famous a farm as some of the greats smile.gif
dkz
Dear Tzviah,

It is nice to see other pictures of this family. Very interesting, 15 Ghalion being a full sister to Bint Bint Nazeera. Zohair 1 looks impressive, especially for being 21(?) in the photo. The first photo is Bint Bint Nazeera taken out of May, 1981 Arabian Horse World magazine photo by Macii(?). The second photo is of
DK Ciera (Imperial Princasir x Bint Bint Nazeera), photographer unknown. The third is of DKA Catera (VP Regal Heir x DK Ciera). Catera now has a filly that looks promising but is only 2 months old and I don't have any good pictures. I thought you might be intersted in how some of this line bred on in the U.S.
Thank you again for the pictures, Deb

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment
idan atiq
Dear Deb,
Thanks so much for sharing these rare photos. I am very curious about how this family has bred on both in Europe and the US. I am building a data base of photos about each of the original SE families established at Babolna during the late 60s and early 70s to get a better feel for the look of each family.
Have never seen these photos before and they are quite helpful. Certainly a very valuable family.
Am I correct in thinking that Bint Bint Nazeera was born in 1974 and called 24 Ghalion in Hungary and exported to the USA in 1977? That is the information I have on her.
Zohair I is an impressive horse, very elegant, with long lines, rather lacking in type. He was used lightly at Babolna over many decades and was still alive and well during our last visit -- about 2005. Never saw a photo of his sire Zohair, and do not know if he resembles him more or his dam.
Thanks so much again for posting the photos.
With best wishes,
Tzviah
Dr Daniel Wigger
Dear Deb,

thank you so much for the picture of Bint Bint Nazeera from AHW. I had asked for it years ago in this forum. I'm very sure that this picture is of great interest to quite a number of breeders here in Germany, who used/use El Ahhim Shah (Ansata Halim Shah x AK Athea by Ibn Moniet El Nefous out of B.B. Nazeera).
Robert 1
QUOTE (Abbasiyah @ Jul 14 2009, 10:07 PM)
Hi Kelly,

It wasn't until I paid multiple visits to the EAO and went to see many, many farms that I started to develop an eye towards what I wanted to breed.  I wanted a horse that was conformationally sound, a horse with excellent movement and a horse that looked like and Arabian of course.  How to achieve this goal??  well.... that came with my trial and error breeding experiences.  I first started with Ansata bloodlines.  I loved the type, the overall look to the Ansata horses.  I then proceeded to move to some of the Gleannloch horses and I loved their structure and movement. 

After visiting the EAO in the 80's and seeing most of the imported EAO horses that came to the U.S. I decided that  I really wanted to preserve the root EAO mare lines as much as possible.  My goal was not to necessarily put a certain look to my horses as to keep these mare lines going and to produce horses that had excellent conformation, movement and type.  Type to me at that point was that it looked like an Arabian in body and head.  I have never been a head breeder over structure but rather a person who wants the whole package.

I know what good structure and movement is and I want to maintain this in my herd and I have to have movement and strong bodies in my foals or I am just not happy.  I can live with a good but not exotic head if the rest is there but I can't and won't accept just a head over everything else.

Having a good sound knowledge of the horses in a pedigree and how these particular horses produce is key to breeding IMHO.  When I think of breeding it is in generations.  I study the pedigree, the horse before me and consider the grandsire/dam, great grandsire/dam etc. etc.  To have had the privilege of seeing most of the horses in current pedigrees or at least relatives to these horses and to know how certain lines will produce (faults/strenghts) is paramount to being able to produce good horses.  Of course surprizes can and will crop up but you are much better prepared when you know the breeding prowess of the pedigree behind what you are trying to breed over not knowing anything about the ancestors and only relying on the phenotype of what is before you.

As I said I think in generations.  We re-imported the Anter son *Serag back to the U.S. from Brasil to preserve him in SO lines and because we loved the athletic ability of Anter and the proven abilities of the mare line of Bint Om El Saad.  We went with the knowledge of what Anter could do for us and what the faults of this line were and bred him to mares that would compliment him.  The results we have sold worldwide.  The ones we kept we are now going to use on our new stallion Bassel Al Rayyan as we need to add refinement and more type and we know that this is behind  the pedigree of Bassel Al Rayyan..  While we are waiting for Bassel to grow up we are using various other stallions that we feel will blend into our vision.  The female results of these breedings will be retained to use with Bassel Al Rayyan. 

Gosh I hope I live long enough to see all my visions for the future laugh.gif

I don't think I will ever have an Abbasiyah look like the Ansata look as I just don't have enough horses nor time to achieve this at this point.  I do think that we will be known for producing some very nice horses though as I also focus on excellent producing mare lines to achieve my goals.

I guess time will tell with respect to our horses and history.  I'm happy though to be producing good horses and good Arabian horses even if I never become as famous a farm as some of the greats smile.gif
*

Hi Judi,
These are some really great breeding plans you have and you have demonstrated very well some of them over the years. biggrin.gif
You have that first hand world expierence from being with some of those greats you talk about. biggrin.gif
I am looking forward to seeing the rest of your ideas with your new colt you imported, the perfect crosses to some of your original lines and breeding, congrats to you and I will be looking forward to some more pic's. wink.gif
Robert
KGH
Marilyn,
I read your post, what's your point?
jerelkerby
The differences in breeders is probably the sum total number of all of us who are breeding. Of course we can't and wouldn't all be the same...maybe some similiar, but I feel everyone has their own basic ideals. However, there is a standard and at some point all will be judged by others who know more. I feel as if I am always learning and always reading and always an eye on pedigree and of course what has come from that pedigee...... backwards and forwards looking. That is the standard for the breed and a stabilization factor for us all. If you go too far from the standard then you won't win, sell etc. The dedication and the hard work of many before us has made our job so much easier.
This is a fun wonderful thing that all of us do and we all do at different degrees. The larger tent we have the more people will breed and the better chance the breed has of survival.
Jerel
KGH
Well said Jerel... smile.gif
Al Zayd NZ
I hope these quotes are due to misunderstanding and not personality reactions, I maybe wrong but....

Some interesting points but hardly complimentary. I felt Kelly was encouraging input towards her threads direction. I would say that many breeders and often horses like artists are not recognized until after the fact, this is not to say that the next generation of success isn't being created or developed.

Quote from KGH "...nobody cares about this or the history or what happened 20-30-50-100 years ago. All you have to do is, just go buy a pretty horse breed it, and sell it." These type of comments are not very helpful or give much credit to those who helped create these great horses...! It may not take a lifetime, some may have beginners luck (whether painstakingly researched or not) but very little will be achieved in the long term with this sort of attitude.

Marilyn of Falconwood your generalisation of breeders of the past just breeding with what they had available is so harsh. Most of the successful programs used extensive personal sacrifice and investment into their ideals and dreams. (sure some have been better documented and benefited than others). We certainly are in a much better position to benefit from these programs. I am sure Jarrel would be horrified to be considered a 'Merchant' I could not imagine he would come close to anything like it.

A choice to be a 'Preservation Breeder' (I do not consider to be included) does not degenerate others choices. I had many people tell me they decided to breed Arabian Derivatives because they are less limiting and went on to breed some truly fantastic horses. I believe the same is true, Arabian breeders focusing on a limited program ie: SE or the likes... does not take away what other breeders are achieving.

Worldwide we maybe able to think 'we' are breeding better horses but don't kid ourselves to think we should credit ourselves too much as to not credit those before us and more so we are very fortunate to be able to work with a breed that is much bigger than we will ever be...!

Thank goodness. regards, David

QUOTE (Marilyn of Falconwood @ Jul 17 2009, 03:05 AM) *
You are not going to like this, but, in return, I was, "Put off," with what YOU said.

First of all, Kelly, you are being very critical of most of us, as breeders, while trying to promote the expertise you feel you have. (Tell us what have you bred and shown?)
Tell me, Kelly, about all the success you have had in the years past, since you are being so critial of everyone else???

Secondly, I do not think that we need to make people feel breeding is something that takes a "lifetime of study" to be successful doing. This is baloney.

Breeding is not a big mystery that takes a lifetime to solve!

Actually, it has a few very basic rules, to be successful.

As far as people in the past, they bred what they had available to them. They bred their horses very tightly due to a lack of variety in bloodlines.
I don't think that took a lot of insight. I do think, however, it locked in many of the great traits of our SEAs today. But, it was done inadvertantly due to their circumstances. Worldwide, I think we are breeding better horses today.

You have to "breed" horses to know "how" to breed. You do not learn it from a book. You have to "see" horses and their foals, to know what they pass on. you have to see lots of horses. One cannot sit at home and look at picture books, or stacks of paper.

Many people breed great looking, successful, wonderful horses, in a few short years. Take for example Jerel Kerby's mare, Hey Baby. This is a beautiful mare that can win anywhere in the show arena, she will produces fabulous foals, (good breeding stock) and he didn't study for a lifetime, to be able to breed something like her! So, new breeders, take heart. You can accomplish a great foundation in a relative short time, without being a preservation breeder.

Back then, Jerel took a well-know cross that had produced many great horses, and he had great success with it. I wouldn't call him a "merchant" because of this...but he is, according to what you said..

It sounds like you are trying to make new owners feel bad if they do not meet your definition of a "Breeder." It sounds like you think everyone should be a "Preservation Breeder," or they are, "Just a Merchant."

One of the most successful breeding programs, that meets all your criteria, is Arabians Ltd. They have created their own look, they work within a certain group of bloodlines, they have endured the test of time, they have been highly successful, and they are known for overall great quality horses that are excellent breeding stock. Most importantly, they believe that owning and breeding SEAs should be fun and enjoyable for the owners That is what it is about, and that is what this website is about..

(I am not sure why you feel most of us do not produce, "good breeding stock." But, then, I am not sure why you are calling us "merchants," either. What is wrong with buying a beautiful mare and breeding her to a great stallion??? Did your heroes buy ugly horses and breed them together??) wink.gif



MT

Robert 1
[quote name='Al Zayd NZ' date='Jul 24 2009, 08:51 AM' post='353236']
I hope these quotes are due to misunderstanding and not personality reactions, I maybe wrong but....



Quote from KGH "...nobody cares about this or the history or what happened 20-30-50-100 years ago. All you have to do is, just go buy a pretty horse breed it, and sell it." These type of comments are not very helpful or give much credit to those who helped create these great horses...!

Hi Dave,
I think a few are missing the point here, this is not how Kelly feels, quite the opposite as a matter of fact, Kelly always believes in those who came before us , Babson, Pritzlaff, Forbis, Mc Nair and all of the many icons who established the SE here in the USA and around the world for us to enjoy today.
BUT, what she says ( about some don't care about history or what happened years ago) is what some breeders use for a breeding philosophy and this is what she was looking to be commented about.
One miss read and didn't comprehend what was being ask before you David, so I can see how this can roll out of control.
Robert
carolmaginn
Hi Kelly,

We have a number of lines that we like alot. We like to use different lines - trying new things to reach our goals to produce really beautiful overall horses. We for example began our program not with SE Arabians, but rather with Crabbet/Polish horses and in fact have even owned partbreds such as National Show Horses... So we do care about a horse having a beautiful, smooth, shapely and powerful body. We do tend to go for long shapely necks and love a hooky neck and good tail carriage. We also like long stable legs with good bone. This perhaps has come from looking at the english horses who we needed to go well in the bridle with a nice hingy neck, as well as the strength to compete in performance. We utilized the Sameh lines initially because they are known for these attributes. The next thing we wanted to add was a little more type and so we have added in lines known for this such as Anaza Bay Shahh, Ruminaja Ali and Ruminaja Bahjat... All of these lines come for the Shaikh Al Badi lines - known for producing type or beautiful heads as well as adding a little more "attitude" and Charisma if you will.

So then we look at our horses and think - what else do we need? One thing that I really like are big eyes, big nostrils, little ears and shortening of the heads. Also love big cheeks. In looking at waht can add more of those components we see the Simeon lines contributing in these areas. So we have brought in a Simeon horse most recently to add a little more of those attributes, and also we see that going well with our Anaza Bay Shahh lines...

So.... I can't really we are "committed" to any particular lines. I would think of ourselves more as "mad scientists" trying to find new ingredients to put together the ideal "potion" to create our ideal horse - a little of this, a little of that and voila!

I can't wait to see what we will get with our new "Sochain Potion"

As far a responsibility to breeding SE Arabians - I feel the it is my responsibility to breed what we are passionate about - our ideal horse and although I like some lines better then others, I do not want to make what for me is a mistake by not considering all the colors of the palate. I have not utilized some lines in the past and really have regretted it. Examples of horses I've not used and wished I had were Al Lahab, Ansata Sinan, Laheeb...etc... I really wish that we had some of the Ezzain horses here in the United States as I love Usamah's stallions - especially NK QASWARAH - I think he is just stunning - a beautiful example of Nagel breeding at its finest.

I can't say that I have all the answers at all as to what makes a good breeder, but I feel an open mind was never a bad thing.

I love our horses and the journey of breeding them, learning, tweaking them, breeding and so on. Its really neat to see the evolution of a herd of horses - a breeding program built with love, sweat and of course - science..

I look forward to showing our "own" breeding to test it out and seeing what others think, but ultimately I think there is that saying "To thine own self be true", - I like that alot and I think breeding what you are passionate about is what makes it so satisfying...

Carol


QUOTE (KGH @ Jul 5 2009, 08:22 AM) *
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

Barbara Griffith once wrote an article about what are the things that a good breeder should do in order to be succesful. We've read the article from Judi Forbis about what a breeder is, and we've read many posts on this forum about what it takes to be a good breeder.

I have to think it goes back to several things which are responsible for formulating success when breeding SE horses.

Bart describes in another thread, about that 'gut feeling' in regards to horses that where you just 'know' what is in a horse and why you think he will work.

I think we have a good mix on this forum. Some are more focused a certain lines of horses, and others are taking finished horses and breeding them to each other to get more of them. One looks to developing lines of horses , and one looks to survey from the top to get a ready made result and take a little here and there to start breeding. While neither is necessarily wrong, nor should we be at ends with one another, I think that we can benefit by explaining some of our logic and methods to gain more understanding.

It seem though that we see less and lees of those who develope a group of horses which are known to be a specific type, common lines, centralized focus on a specific bloodgroup,etc. and more who are taking one of these to go with one of those, and on and on.
Fewer breeders are breeding horses past a 1 or 2 generations and are more consistantly changing their lines of horses.

Please share your thoughts on this subject so we can all gain a better understanding.

I am wondering what line or group of horses are you known for ?
What are your horses known for?

Solita
While looking through some old magazines I came across this written by Walter Mishek.

"We're less breeder oriented now and the owners are more and more marketers. They are interested in creating a horse that can be sold not used and kept in a breeding program with an eye on the next generation and the third generation. You find few breeders like Varian, Bazy, and Forbis. Most people today don't have generations. Other places in the world they do but in America we've changed and we don't."
idan atiq
Sad but for the most part true.
QUOTE (Solita @ Jul 25 2009, 09:39 PM) *
While looking through some old magazines I came across this written by Walter Mishek.

"We're less breeder oriented now and the owners are more and more marketers. They are interested in creating a horse that can be sold not used and kept in a breeding program with an eye on the next generation and the third generation. You find few breeders like Varian, Bazy, and Forbis. Most people today don't have generations. Other places in the world they do but in America we've changed and we don't."

Robert 1
QUOTE (Solita @ Jul 25 2009, 10:39 PM) *
While looking through some old magazines I came across this written by Walter Mishek.

"We're less breeder oriented now and the owners are more and more marketers. They are interested in creating a horse that can be sold not used and kept in a breeding program with an eye on the next generation and the third generation. You find few breeders like Varian, Bazy, and Forbis. Most people today don't have generations. Other places in the world they do but in America we've changed and we don't."



Very well said.....


quick versus time.
It's kind of like one trying to get across the creek by jumping from one rock to another and trying not to get their feet wet, rather than building a bridge of generations to the other side. biggrin.gif

Robert
carolmaginn
Great quote. Sheila Varian is one of my favorite and most admired breeders and is always thinking ahead two and sometimes three generations. I asked her if she liked polish horses, egyptian horses, russian horses, etc... Her answer was always - "A good horse is a good horse". She started with some great polish lines imported from poland - great solid horses with substance - alot of english type horses...and she was always thinking about the "next step". I have watched as she tweaked her program through the years adding whatever she needed (beauty, body, substance, disposition, etc... from different bloodlines to achieve her goals and refine her vision of her own unique style of horse. I really admire her.



QUOTE (Solita @ Jul 25 2009, 03:39 PM) *
While looking through some old magazines I came across this written by Walter Mishek.

"We're less breeder oriented now and the owners are more and more marketers. They are interested in creating a horse that can be sold not used and kept in a breeding program with an eye on the next generation and the third generation. You find few breeders like Varian, Bazy, and Forbis. Most people today don't have generations. Other places in the world they do but in America we've changed and we don't."

KGH
Solita and Idan,

I think that's part of it, fewer and fewer breeders going beyond 1-2 generations always adding more layers to a pedigree before finding out just what is in that pedigree.
When we think of one of the main questions a breeder asks, which is 'does this horse posess the genetic material to pass on in his/her offspring?"
I'm wondering if we will be able to answer that question a few years from now with the same amount of certainty as we can today? Does this also lead to the end of a breeders longevity ? And I ask this because all through history it appears the breeders who have maintained longevity to their success are those who kept it simple, sweet and to the point.

David,
Just to clarify, I didn't say nobody cares what happened 10-20 years ago with SE horses, rather I was in disbelief when I heard this from someone else. wink.gif smile.gif

KGH
Now Marilyn, please do not say I said all these things when I did not. I don't know what you are fabricating in your mind, but what you've stated I have not said in such a way as you posted here.

I define a merchant as one who buys and sells for profit, without thought to any outcomes or consequence other than personal financial gain. A person who trades, or only sees horses as a commodity or product to buy and sell.

I define a breeder as one who seeks all other aspects first for the well being of their horses and the breed , and in the process of breeding horses will either maintian, or improve or support the breed as a whole through their efforts of breeding quality horses for the future and the betterment of the breed who achieve success in an earnest way.

Some are one or the other, and some are a little bit of both.

And don't continue to put Jerel, LTD or any others in the middle of this. Because if you are friends, you wouldn't do this. It's tacky. Speak for yourself and try to stand on your own two feet when you do.

And for the record, I was very instumental in making sure EVERYONE is able to post here about their Minstril horses without feeling as if they were about to be hit by a cement truck and hung out to dry, for saying they had one of these horses. So don't sit there and say otherwise and tell me what this forum is about.
You will be courteous, and you will be respectful of others on this forum whether you agree or disagree. If you have a better arguement, post it.

There have been many who through the course of history have painstakingly documented and wrote books on the history of these horses for the benefit of us all, traveled the world at their expense, and have done so for the sake of education and to keep the breed intact. Yes, these are some of my heros, and I have great respect and tremendous gratitude for those who have done this. Sorry this rubs you the wrong way, or that you think they should be dismissed. Most of us realize it takes ALL of us to make this breed viable and lively enough for the future. It takes ALL the horses, the historians, writers, photographers, breeders, visionaries, horse lovers, owners and all to make things come together.

I know MANY small breeders who are very enthusiastic about sharing what there horses are with other breeders. They LOVE to talk about where/how they originated, what lines, why they think this line goes with that, what their future plans are and much more. I receive letters every week from breeders from around the world who are in this for the long haul and are committed to a life with these horses and not all of them define success as a blue ribbon or in terms of $$$ but rather are having great feelings of success on their journey through life and sharing it with their horses.

KGH
QUOTE (Marilyn of Falconwood @ Aug 2 2009, 11:05 AM) *
Kelly, I guess being a, "Monitor" has its privileges!!!

I went back through the thread and you have edited out your harsh, critical comments!

Your posts no longer say that SEA owners do not produce, "Good Breeding Stock." Your posts no longer say that people who buy beautiful mares and breed them to top stallions, are only "Merchants." You have taken out all the broad, sweeping, highly critical remarks about the majority of breeders today...

I answered your "original posts," NOT the ones that now appear on this thread.

When anyone deems themselves to be an expert, critical of others, they should have some credentials to back up all that assumed "authority."

I guess you could not do that, so you just deleted your comments. I don't blame you.

Anyway, you have a lot of practice editing posts.

MT



Marilyn,
This is ALSO incorrect for you to say this. What I did was change the statement to the form of a question as Susan stated she wasn't sure what I was asking.

But at NO point in time did I say Straight Egyptian Breeders do not produce good breeding stock.

Try to focus on comprehension of what you are reading, if possible.

Maybe you should take a break for awhile.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.