Hi,

I would really like to hear some stories about how you became a breeder/studowner etc.

How did you start up?

Did you earn a lot of money before doing some other job, or did you take out a bankloan?

Did you have to keep a job (I emagine you must) on the side, to afford stabling the horses?

What do you think it takes to make a stud profitable?

How many mares did you start off with?

Did you start with a VERY expencive/top quality mare, or did you buy a good mare for a little less money?

When did you first have a stallion (your own/leased) at stud?


I am 18 years old and I can't wait to get my own arabian mare and start breeding. But I haven't finnished school yet, ad therefore don't have a job, so I guess I'll have to wait. But I'm so impatient I want to start now.

Do you have any advice on what I should consider before breding arabians?

Hope for a lot of answers - thanks if you give me one

Stine.

hello.
I'm not a breeder but I hope that someday I will have my own arab horses stud, too......
... I'm waiting with You for a storyies how to become a arab horses breeder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How did you start up?
Well, I bought my first horse after I got married. She just so happened to be an arabian and she was in foal with a NSH filly. After a few years we moved to the East coast where I then leased a SE colt and figured I needed one more mare to compliment him. So I bought another mare. It didn't work out and I no longer have the stud who ended up a gelding, but I do have the most phenominal mare!

Did you earn a lot of money before doing some other job, or did you take out a bankloan?
I caregave for the elderly when I bought my second mare. She was very expensive but at the time I was making that kind of money. I'm not now, so I could never do that again. I was very luck.....

Did you have to keep a job (I emagine you must) on the side, to afford stabling the horses?
I rent a property where I have 500 acres, so I don't pay much to stable my own. But yes, I do have to work full time though.

What do you think it takes to make a stud profitable?
Very few studs are "profitable". It takes a ton of money to make a ton of money. While my horses are a "business" to me, they are still a hobby, I don't expect to make anything, but I do try to brake even and hope that they support themselves most of the time.

How many mares did you start off with?
I only have two, but to be honest I only breed one.

Did you start with a VERY expencive/top quality mare, or did you buy a good mare for a little less money?
I started with an ok mare, but at the time I wasn't looking to do a lot, just have one horse, maybe keep the foal she was carrying. Because to me she's not 100% I do not breed her, but she's turned into a phenominal show horse. The mare I bought to breed I did spend a lot of money on. And I make sure I only breed her to the best stallions. I only breed her every other year.

When did you first have a stallion (your own/leased) at stud?
2001, and I would NEVER EVER stand a stallion EVER again. I LOVE stallions, but if I ever did it again, I would never stand him at public stud. It was the worst experience of my life in regards to the horses, so far.

Do you have any advice on what I should consider before breding arabians?
Education, go to every farm you can travel to, make contacts, go to shows. Do all of the research and contacting first, then when you are ready to buy a wonderful mare, A. you know people who can help you and B. you will probably get a deal on the mare because you will probably by her from one of your good contacts.

OOPS for got to put my name! The above post was by me, Amanda.

Hi Stine & Ally

I am a small hobbiest type breeder located in the north eastern part of Ontario Canada. I have been around horses most of my life, started riding at the age of 4. I bought my first Arabian in 1993 a half arab palomino mare, that I still have and who I call "Dee" she was well bred and of oustanding quality. From there I went on to purchase an older top quality purbred mare ( a Gaelic daughter) who was predominantly crabbet/ kellogg breeding. I fell in love with her son a beautiful stallion and aquired him a couple years later. He produced a few foals for me before his untimely death in 1999. By that time I was hooked on having my own stallion, as I prefer to breed my mares here and I love the presence and excitement of having a stallion to work with.

In 1999 I purchased 2 straight egyptian weanling colts that I felt had excellent potential as stallion prospects and they have both grown into absolutely gorgeous horses. I purchased 2 straight egyptian mares in 2000 and 1 in 2002.My first foals by the one stallion arrived last year and we are expecting the first foal by the other this March. I like to do my own thing! I look for the qualities and faults (as their are no perfect horses) of the mare & stallion and consider all of these when putting them together, I feel that this is important to ensure they compliment each other. Than I look forward to the foal coming and seeing how it turns out. This to me is the purpose of breeding. I don't breed to make lots of $$, I do it first because I enjoy it and I sell some of my foals/horses (to good homes) because I can't keep them all.

My husband and I both work full time, I also breed Golden Retrievers.We have a nice stable and home on 119 acres that we work hard to keep nice and improve on. It is alot of work to have your own place. When it comes to animals it is a labour of love, their are many hours of enjoyment and pleasure, but their are hard aches too!

My advice read and learn as much as you can about the arabian horse. Find someone that you can learn from.Look around see what you like, save up and buy the mare of the breeding and quality you want and go from there.

Thanks for asking.

Patti

This s an interesting experience... Why would you never do it again?

It was a tormenting experience. We live in a very natural setting here and people would come to see him and even though he was of wonderful quality with a glorious pedigree (Ibn Safinaz and Dalul grandson) because we don't have a big barn with glitter and gold, the interest would die right there. I had one couple walk into my home and say "this is where you live?" I'm sure they were imagining amazingly grand farm, we are your average joe. We advertised and barely received any interest. Just you bunch of tire kickers and half promises. We sent him out to a barn, and all he did was compete with the barn owners stallions clients. The people we had to associate with around him were some of the most horrible people I've ever dealt with. Back stabbing, slanderous, just plain crazy people. They'd sooner spit in your eye as to shake your hand! No, this standing stallions at stud is just plain crazy and for those that can "do it right", I'd rather just send you my stud fee. Like I said, IF I ever did it again, I would never stand my stallion at public stud....people are just inherently evil <_<

Yes, yhank you, I understand... I have never been in America, but I have the feeling that for a private man it's even worse here in Germany... not to forget the gossiping on the internet etc...; everybody knows everybody, and if you want to do it right and make a good impression everything must be absolutely perfect! I even dare to say that the horse is then not even the most important, sadly enough! <_<

Hi

I am sorry that hrn had such a hard experience. It IS very hard to stand a stallion at stud, and the common thought by younger breeders (just starting out mostly, the learning is hard and fast at times) is that they can buy a stallion prospect and make money so they can buy mares.

To me, that is backwards!! Save up and get the very best mare that you can afford, then go shopping for the "just right" stallion for her The mares make the farm, to me, and I do stand a stallion at public stud.

Without my stallions, I would go back to being a farm without a stallion and do that happily With him, I pay the price as any breeder will, for having a stallion. He has to be promoted, shown, advertised, exhibited, etc. to attract even a few mares... and it can take YEARS before breeders realize any material benefit from having their own stallion

If you ARE going to start with the stallion and try to successfully promote him, don't buy an inexpensive colt with a pretty pedigree. What if he does not turn out as good as you might want him too? Starting with a colt that you can show and promote is great... but generally the really good ones will hurt the pocketbook.... And you must understand going into it with a colt, that you are going to spend a lot of $$ and time and effort to get him noticed at all...

Just my thoughts...

Julia

This is an interesting topic and one that is close to my heart. I love owning a stallion and I have one that is really top class. Unfortunately, you can have the best and most wonderful stallion, with the most wonderful bloodlines and you still can't go anywhere with him unless you have simply got tons and tons of money to pour into it. By the time anyone recognizes your horse, if they ever do, he will be dead and buried and then people will say "Oh what a wonderful horse. Why didn't we use him. Too bad he is not available today." Well, if he was available, people still wouldn't use him for the same reasons they didn't use him when he was alive.

My advice to anyone wishing to start a breeding farm is to do it because you love it and forget about any other aspect of it. Get a stallion you love, and mares that make you happy, breed to produce the best you can and then you will feel fulfilled. People that are in it to attract attention or make a lot of money should really look for some other way to do so.

The person who mentioned how difficult it is to stand a stallion at public stud is very correct. It is extremely difficult. Most inquiries you get end in half-hearted promises that never get followed up on. You just have to put these things out of your mind and carry on.

I have one stallion who is superb, one really well bred mare and two other mares that I share on a foal lease. One of those mares got cast this year and aborted her foal. Since it was the foal that would have been mine, there went half of my breeding program. There are many of these heartbreaking incidents when you have horses. No matter how you stiffen your backbone they always hurt.

With all of that though, I wouldn't trade what I do for anything. When I watch my horses, or ride them, or see the new foals arrive, that makes everything worth while. Possibly at some point I will stop standing my stallion, but I will never stop owning him or breeding my mares. That would be just like stopping breathing to me.

.

Hiya,
I am 25 and I decided I wanted to be a breeder at 14. The problem was that my family are not horsey and we lived in London.
My dad bought me my first horse, a Polish mare for my 14th birthday (i chose) and after that he gave me the money to buy a colt and rescure a crabbet mare for my 15th or 16th birthday. The colt didn't turn out what I would consider breeding quality (as i got older, wiser too) and was gelded and sold at 3 years. Both the Polish mare and the Crabbet mare (even though the crabbet had foaled in her youth) both turned out to be infertile. Very unlucky for me.
I started work when i was 16 and it has taken me all that time to turn my stock around to the quality that I have now. I have had to work a 50 hour week and pay a fortune in stable rent and do my horses DIY after work. It has taken me a long time to be able to afford to buy the quality I have now. During that time I have bred one part bred and one colt who was shown for one season winning his class at his first C show. I sold him and his dam and bought myself a nice filly to fit with the breeding programme i was heading towards. This year my very best mare is due her first foal, she will be shown after that. I have four horses in total.
I still keep my horses at DIY livery at a cost of £800 a month. On top of that I have my mortgage and my cost of living. Until I can afford to buy a house with it's own land I will not be able to expand or stand my own breeding stallion.
It takes a long time but you can get it if you want hard enough. I was young when I started.
Also, if you already have your own land and if you have someone who is family or a close friend who is horsey or at least understands what you want to do then this will help you as you will need some sort of emotional support, I did everything on my own until I met my boyfriend and he has made a world of difference. Good Luck!

Anyone can be a horse breeder but,
to make money or a living from it requires one very simple basic rule that must be followed but, most people don't and then they quickly decide to call it a hobby and a love of the horses that they own.

The rule is simple, if you want to be competition or excell beyond the competition, you must find someone who has many years of knowledge of the Arabian horse. Then he or she and you must find the best possible MARE and preferably already in foal to a GREAT stallion.

The reasoning for this is that you will never breed beyond what your foundation mare is, too many start with a cheap way and buy poor quality mares and think they can breed up, it will never happen even if the poor mare is bred to the best stallion in the world. Further if the mare isn't in foal make sure she has all that is needed , like a good production record etc.
Then negotiate on a great stallion before hand and make sure it is the golden cross and be willing to pay the stud fee.
This sounds expensive but, a great mare will give you her purchase value in every foal she produces or better.
Many breeders have so so mares but, not many breeders have great mares.
When you look at any stud farm in your search for a good mare, the first rule is if mare is for sale she isn't worth buying , the mare you want is the one that the top breeder doesn't want to sell, negotiate, negotiate until you win out.
Don't worry about owning your own stallion in the begining, that is a mistake, a great stallion can't usally be purchased but, his stud fee can, the only way to get a great stallion is to breed one. If you breed a great mare to great stallions the result is inevitable that you will eventually get your own great stallion.
Many happy and enjoyable years will come to you with great Arabians, don't let anyone turn you away, I wouldn't change my life with Arabians.
All the very best to you and your venture.

Dear Guest:

I wonder if you have ever been on the receiving end of inquiries to sell a horse that you don't want to sell. Nothing is so irritating as to be pestered over and over again when you have said "no". If a person wants to buy a horse that is not for sale, and the owner says "no" then I think we should respect their wishes, not encourage new breeders to "negotiate, negotiate" in order to try and make someone do something they don't wish to do.

If, on the other hand, the owner gives you reason to think they may change their mind, that is another thing.

I own a wonderful Halim Shah son. I have had many inquiries from people who wish to purchase him. I have been asked to name my price and even threatened that I would not be able to do anything with him if I didn't sell. I don't mind telling anyone "no" once but I hope that people will respect a "no" answer when they get it and not keep pushing. After all, it is easy to leave your name and number in case of a change of heart at some time in the future.

It's always the ones you DON"T want to sell that people want to buy!

Hrnarabians,
If you are in the Arabian horse business and not in it for a hobby, why would you not sell your stallion?

Sorry, my question was for Nancy Bourque

hrnarabians,
Why are there horses that you want to sell, and then why are horses that you don't want to sell, if you could please explain what is the difference and why you feel that way about your horses if you are breeding and operating it as a business?
Thanks so much

IF I was in this for a "business" and not as a hobby (because I honestly do not think anyone can make horses a "business" with out considerable financial backing) and I thought "my" stallion was not fulfilling my needs, I could find his bloodlines elsewhere, or the offer was a huge sum, then yes, I would sell. But I'm telling you right now if someone came to me tomorrow and said they wanted my Heiress and offered me a huge sum, I would not sell. I'd offer a foal out of her, but she is not for sale. Because she is a member of my family, she fulfills my requirements as a broodmare, and it would be hard to find a mare with her breeding/heritage - her total package for what I paid for her.

The issue is while I will make keeping/selling/breeding decisions basing my horses as a "business", they are so very not a "true" business, they are members of my family. When I decide that a horse is for sale it is for many reasons but a few being that they may not be fulling my standards for breeding, or I have taken them as far as I can in their training and they will not become the kind of horse I'm looking to ride personally, etc. For example my mare Jaysseen is for sale. She is a beautiful mare with a really royal pedigree. But her breeding is not my focus, so I do not breed her. And for riding, she will not be the horse I will be able to do what I like to do on. She much prefers the show ring and does not enjoy cross country jumping. So I am leasing her with the hopes of selling her to a farm where the leasee is a trainer. The mare gives lessons to little girls who cuddle her and love on her and she just stands there and GLOWS. THAT is what she wants to do. I had her NSH dtr, NSH's were not where I wanted to go, so I sold her to a woman in IN who took her to win a championship. We just sold our Shetland pony mare. I've been taking driving lessons and we had the mare trained and my husband loves her. But what is her point? And when someone called, even though at the time she "was not for sale" we decided to sell her to them. Why? Because they own her sire, dam, full sister and went LOOKING for Oceana. She will have a phenominal show/breeding home and they already have her booked to a Hall of Fame stallion. Our colt is for sale, why? Because I want to keep his dams daughters, not her colts. His dam is not for sale, she fulfills my expectations. I want to be clear that when one is for sale, I will never place a low ball price on their head to get them out of here and they all sell with a contract that says I will get first right of refusal. They all sell to wonderful homes and should they ever move from that home, they have the kind of owners that will make sure the next home is just as wonderful as the last. That's the difference IMO.

McKuley1
You are explaining it perfectly clear if you follow your own ideas.
First if you are in it for a business then every horse you have involved in the business must always be for sale.
Potential serious clients do not want to buy what you have rejected in your own mind, they can see that in your presentation right away when you are showing them horses that are for sale.
When you ask for and expect to get serious prices for your horses then you need to present them as such.
Seldom does a person buying a horse get that deal of a life time, by that I mean refuse to take a large sum of money for a horse that they got a deal on. You get what you pay for.
If you are in it for a hobby, then anything goes and with that goes the potential of making a steady profit and business of breeding Arabian Horses.
Nothing is wrong with having Arabians for a hobby and loving your favorite Arabian horses and making them part of your family, that is to be admired.

Hi Guest:

In answer to your question, where would I be if I sold off my best stock to someone else? What kind of a smart business decision would that be? Once my best horses are gone, then must I go somewhere else and try to convince a reluctant owner to sell me their best stock? Why do that if what you already own suits you perfectly. And, also, I really doubt if anyone who is thinking clearly would expect to make any money raising horses. Many people call it a business but if you look at it closely I think it would have to be called a hobby that occasionally brings in a return.

My stallion is not for sale because to me (and apparently to others) he is irreplaceable. Halim Shah is long dead. Rebecca is old now and if still alive cannot be rebred to Halim Shah. Once I sell him, I can never have another like him. In addition to this, in the 11 years I have had him, he has become a true member of our family. We all love him. No matter where I sent him, no one could do more for him than we can in that respect. As someone else mentioned earlier, he truly fulfills our needs as I believe we fulfill his.

Perhaps he will never receive international fame, or sire hundreds of world champions because I don't have the funds to promote him. I am sure that El Ibriz will not regret that. He is very happy. I don't expect him to bring me fame or recognition either. Seeing the wonderful foals arrive each spring is all I want from him. If people choose to buy his services then they can share him and if they don't then that is their loss.

I do have horses that I sell. I have his daughter for sale just now and a yearling son as well. I have just sold a colt to Europe. But, I can never anticipate a time when El Ibriz will not suit us and so he will never be for sale.

In answer to your question, where would I be if I sold off my best stock to someone else? What kind of a smart business decision would that be? Once my best horses are gone, then must I go somewhere else and try to convince a reluctant owner to sell me their best stock? Why do that if what you already own suits you perfectly. And, also, I really doubt if anyone who is thinking clearly would expect to make any money raising horses. Many people call it a business but if you look at it closely I think it would have to be called a hobby that occasionally brings in a return.

I very much agree with this. Yes, they say you should always sell your best when the opportunity presents itself, but in my case as well as Nancy's selling our best means loosing bloodlines not easily - or not able to be replaced. I am enamored with my mare enough that I want to keep her daughters. Will a few of them sell, oh, I'm sure. Not every breeding match produce a daughter that I will want to move to the next generation with. And yes, I'll list all of her daughters at PT as weanlings to two year olds. Unless I have some kind of emergancy though, I don't feel many will slip through my fingers.

ooops! I forgot to log in again! That was me again..hrnarabians or mckulley1, which ever happens when I forget to log in or am too lazy!

One day, my husband asked me if I'd like to get out of our neighborhood and move out to the country - I was delighted and we sold our house in 2 weeks and bought a little 5 acre property. We moved out to the boonies so it wasn't that much more than our house in the "city" and I didn't have to board my horses anymore - instead we built a small but nice barn.

After looking at more and more horses I began to really admire the beauty of the SE's - so I bought one and loved her so much that I bought her mother who is expecting our first foal here at our new farm in March. We now have 3 SE mares and 2 non SEs. I hope in March to have one more SE FILLY!

I have asked my mentors and they say that you can do it but you just have to be careful about how you go about it. Do alot of research on what lines work well together, and then of course you have to get your horses seen by people and so you need to get involved with your organizations (e.g. fellow Arabian enthusiasts, trainers, owners, breeders, etc..). It takes time to develop a good reputation. But if you sell a horse to a satisfied customer - that will be very good PR. The people I buy horses from are people that I feel are honest, experienced and fair in their sales practices - so I will use that as my model too - as well as to always be there to offer a helping hand to others. I have heard that Majid in Pennsylvania has this wonderful says that goes something like "Be the change you want to see in the world" and I love that. So as a horse "seller" - if we will "Be the example of the type of seller we would buy from - I think we will eventually be a success".

I will add that I do think it is important to have a nice place to show your horses to prospective buyers. It doesn't have to be very large, but it should be fairly nice. I think people are hesitant to buy a horse if the place it is at is looking shabby. They think that if you don't take good care of your place, maybe you aren't taking care of the horses. My advice would be to invest in a nice barn (you can even lease them now and deduct it off your taxes) or if you don't have a fairly nice place (not fancy - just nice) then ask a friend who does have a nicer place if you can show your horse over at their barn, as it will make a nicer impression on the buyer.

Nancy, hrnarabians, or Mckulley1. All the best to you and enjoy your horses and hobby.

Carol,
What a wonderful story of how you got started and it is great to see that your mentors are so friendly to you with good advice, I am sure you will get to any level you desire.

Dear Guest:

Why not tell us who you are and how you got started breeding Arabians? I, for one, would love to hear how you do things and what your secrets for success are.

Gosh...I feel like we've been dismissed!

It wasn't intended that anyone was dismissed but, if you are doing a breeding program and as a few stated that they weren't making any money and it was not possible to operate as a business, then perhaps you are some what formulated in your ideas and are not willing to make any changes.
I explained one way of breeding Arabian horses as a business, allow me to give you thoughts of a second way.
It starts off the same with purchasing the best possible mare that can stand up to the competition that you wish to challenge.
With one great mare, we are in the age of Frozen Semen and
Embryo Transfers. With a good mare that is in her early years of production like I originally said, you may do 4 to 5 ET'S per year each foal from only the very best stallions that you choose to compliment your mare, using frozen semen that way it allows you to carefully pick a stallion from anywhere.
Each resulting foal should give you the value of the mare or better. The foals would be in demand being of only the highest quality that you like personally and would not need to be shown which is a great expense, because the mare that you originally negoitiated was and also as was the stallions that you selected for the matings.
You could maintain this small number of one mare and several foals per year in a small quality barn if needed. Thus cutting the cost of how many horses you are caring for allowing you to give them the highest care that you choose with a low cost.
The way that the operating cost exceeds the return is by having too many horses of poor quality, by that I mean not saleable at the price of your best horse, and also driving up the operating cost.
Thus all of your foals would have good potential of being great quality, agreeing that some will be less than others but, what you hit a home run on makes up for when you only get a single.
I always wish the best to everyone no matter how they choose to do their program, I am only offering ideas that I found to work from my many long and hard years of trial and error. Perhaps a shortcut for some.

This is an interesting question:
I personally think that not everyone should be a breeder and not every horse should be bred. However, more often than not this happens.
I think one should only become a breeder IF they can truly contribute something to improving the breed.
Have a specific focus, know how to get there and breed for your ideal.

Certain people breed for fads while other people like Ansata have long stayed pass the fads. I personaly think it is because they bred true to their ideal.
Sadly to say some of the breeding that goes on is for the ego of those breeding.

Creating a life is an awesome responsibility and should never be taken lightly.

Guest,
The biggest problem I see with your analisis is that having one mare and breeding with ET is the extreme cost. You'd have to have this done through a vet, then you'd have to take care of the mares that are in foal with your mares foals. The cost is something like $10k per ET. This doesn't include the months of care, the stud fee, frozen semen container costs, etc. To me, this is one of the most expensive ideas!

The cost for ET's is only several hundred dollars, if you time your mares and don't run up a board bill at the clinic, the surrogate mare is only 1,500 but, many of us have a mare around, or like me I get race horses given to me for free, The whole ET can be done for less than 750 even if you purchase a surrogate mare at 1,500 it is only around 2,000 and, remember the surrogate mare can be used over and over it is only a one time cost, so the cost of the surrogate shouldn't be totally figured in on the first mare or ET. I am not sure where you are from but call New Bolton Vet Clinic near Philadelphia, Penna.

I believe everyone who desires to be a breeder should it is a way of preserving the Arabian because there are not many Straight Egyptians Arabians. Yes, some will be fads but, remember the wheel was invented and can't be improved on only maintained to it's original shape of perfection.

In my investigations I have researched every avenue for success in raising Arabian horses as well as other breeds. My husband was the general manager of a large and successful company so we are very aware of the things necessary for a successful business.

My research has included the possibity of embryo transfer along with transported semen. We have a veterinary teaching university near here and access to the necessary technology. One thing I have found is that embryo transfer is not an option for anything but a very exceptional mare that cannot produce on her own. The cost is really prohibitive. It is not enough to figure in the cost of the transfer itself but you have to realize the other costs involved and they are many. I have, in fact, discussed this topic many times with my vet who is a reproduction specialist.

In the 40 years I have owned and raised horses, I have found that no matter how closely you follow bloodlines and search for the "golden cross" nature always steps in with her little tricks. First of all, mares are notoriously poor breeders, no matter how careful you are. Second, no matter how carefully you plan your breedings, not all will be of the quality that brings in a profit. And, then we have the colts. Everyone wants those fillies, but few people have the facilities to keep a stallion and even fewer want to. Therefore, most of those beautiful colts end up as geldings. Not many geldings bring in a price that even covers the expenses that were incurred in raising them.

One thing many people do not consider is the amount of money invested in the business. If you are truly in a business then you have to consider the initial outlay for buildings, land, equipment, and breeding stock. I f you have gone to someone to purchase stock they are not willing to sell, then you have certainly paid a premium for that stock. As one person already mentioned, people turn up their noses at facilities that are less than beautiful. Anyone who has good facilities has paid a large price for them. Business people have to consider what their return on investment would be if they had invested this money in other ways. I am very certain that you can get more return from other investments.

Now lets get to wages. Everyone knows horses are a 7 day/24 hour job. They do not allow for taking weekends off or vacations or please us by foaling or having accidents during the daytime. Figure in your wages for the hours you have spent tending, training, working etc. and then ask yourself what sort of price you would have to get for each foal to pay yourself a decent wage for the time you have spent, along with the return on investment and expenses such as feed, vet, farrier, advertising, repairs to facilities, maintenance of property and so on and so on. It's endless. There is no other word to describe it. And it's not easy work either.

If you ad embryo transfer, purchased stud fees, showing expenses, trainers etc. to the top of all of this, I question how anyone can consistently make a profit, or expect to. I am not a novice horse owner but someone who got my first horse at age 12 and by age 15 I was running a boarding stable to pay the expenses for my four horses while I went to school. In the interim years, I have been seriously involved with horses well beyond keeping horses for pleasure. I have seen it all and tried everything. I love my horses but I am well aware of the dificulties involved. And, one thing I know as well is that having the top bloodlines does not always make it possible to make a profit. It does improve your chances.

Lets talk about the ways to bring our horses to the public's attention. Showing is one of the prime ways to do that and it is very expensive. When you go out and spend all that money you want to be successful. Being successful often means causing our horses great discomfort and pain. Considering the show world today, there is often no other way to obtain success. Even with all of that there is a great possiblity that no matter what you do you may not be the winner. Having a wonderful breeding program does not guarantee success in the show ring.

The other thing I want to mention again is this business of selling your best stock and the notion that if you are in business, everything is for sale. In our business experience, if you sell the thing that keeps you in business you are then no longer in business. Also, if I sell my "business equipment" and can no longer produce the product that I sell, even if I get a large return on it, then what do I do. I go out and try to buy similar to replace it. Of course, since I have to persuade someone to sell something they don't want to sell, then I am going to pay an even bigger premium to get replacements, that is supposing that I can find a replacement. Now, when we talk horses, what if that replacement doesn't produce as well as our old "equipment" did? There are no guarantees. Am I still in business and will I still have the customers I had?

Guest, I would love to know how you deal with these questions. I would also love to know what bloodlines you are working with and I'd love to know how you are making a profit taking all these things into consideration. I'd love to hear your success stories. One thing I have learned is that there is always something to learn. We have heard quite a few generalities but I'd love to hear the actual facts about how you have succeeded. If you can teach me something that I have missed I will be truly appreciative.

Hi Nancy,
There isn't anything anyone can tell or help with when you have all the answers and have totally convinced yourself of how you want to do things in your program of breeding horses but, the one thing you left out is that you don't accept any of the blame for your short comings in operating your horse program as a business. The show ring is a great escape for many.
I only have one question, do you show at Regional shows and the Egyptian Event?
As I said before when some one is not willing to change a unsuccessful program then simply keep it as a hobby and most of all enjoy your wonderful and beautiful Arabians, it is such a wonderful blessing just to own a Arabian.
All the Best to You!

Jeeze Guest, we answered your questions, why don't you answer ours?
You must be very lucky because my last quote on ET, this was about two year ago, was $10k. That included the group of surrogate mares to use to get just one successful implantation, the embryos, the semen, the vet care. And every vet I've spoken with will not ET your own mares. They are select group of mares that they have, know their cycles and can control their cycles and then you can board/care for the mares who do take and have the option to purchase these surrogate mares or send them back after weaning. Then if you want to be super careful, you wouldn't transport these surrogates until they are three months along, well that defeats the keeping board down idea. Even if it was only $5k, it is still cost prohibitive to me. The very simple point to this that unless you have the money dish out, realizing the return on this "investment" is hard. For those that have built into a business, I would be almost positive that they do not exclusively breed, they also take in training horses, boarding, lessons, etc.

guest, What is your breeding program...Tell me what you,ve shown at regionels..e event etc... Are you a politician by the way? All air..Substantiate your retorick .

I think Nancy you have a diamond in the rough in El Ibiz ..Being a Halim Shah son.....That is why people are pestering you to sell...I talked to a woman with a young Padron daughter .people are after her to sell to.She says they try and buy as cheaply as possible. and the jack up the price a thousand fold..The horse world is,nt like it was for sure.........

Nancy:

WOW! I am going to cut and paste your post and keep it really close. It was very powerful, one of the best that I have ever read. Thank you. You have my respect, as well as my gratitude.

Susan:

That one line, combined with Nancy's words, is just terrific. Thank you too. And if you don't mind, it bears repeating:



Ralph

To answer the original question, I started out in breeding for the challenge of trying to create my perfect Arabian. I bought the best mare that I could afford of proven bloodlines.

In response to Guest, from what you have said I actually doubt you run a horse breeding business using AI and ET at all. My guess is that you're bluffing.Bollocks. Maybe with a pinch of fairydust yes! In reality there will always be foals which are not up to standard, regardless of the quality of the mare and stallion. Why do the fastest Thoroughbreds in the world, when bred together, not always produce the fastest offspring? Why do world class studs, like Ansata, geld some of their colts?

AI is used with reasonable success within racing (standardbred) studs because of the large numbers of mares involved, which makes the cost of the vet or technician cheaper per mare. We do not have the same situation within Arabian breeding.
ET is not used to increase the numbers of foals produced, but rather to get foals from valuable mares who can't carry a foal, or mares in competition (where they earn money which outweighs the cost of ET) so that they can keep competing. AI is most successful in young mares. Generally the most valuable mares are older ones that have proven their worth. I personally do not know of any world class studs that use AI or ET as a regular breeding tool, other than one in the UK which breeds Arabs for racing (Al Wathba??)... again, the money earned from racing makes it worthwhile. Simeon Stud in Australia has tried it with limited success. Forest Hill Stud (also Australia) have had better success since the owner has bought all the necessary equipment and does the AI himself yet he still doesn't recommend it as a year-in year-out breeding tool. Some of my neighbouring breeders have used it with brilliant results for the first year or two but thereafter have had dismal results costing tens of thousands of dollars.

I think the reality is that it is a long hard road to breed your perfect Arabian (no quick fixes through AI or ET) and to run a horse stud as a profitable business is possible but can be likened to walking on a tight rope.

Mary M, Ralph, Susan, and Carole,

I echo your sentiments! I think that Nancy has provided sensible thoughts on the challenge of having a breeding program. It is very difficult for many breeders to make a profit breeding horses. Beginners should be aware of the challenges. And it is not enough to acquire a good mare, or to breed to a top stallion. There is much more to a successful breeding program.

To quote one of the top breeders in the world, "You can breed the best stallion to the best mare, and still get a horse that is less than mediocre. It is like throwing dice . . . . you may get a winner and you may not!"

Nancy, your words speak for your experience and for your knowledge. Your horses are also world class and speak for themselves.

Well spoken!

Majid

Hi Nancy, Carol, hrnarabians, and Mary M,

I have noticed that the same people get together on most threads once they begin to have some importance to Arabian owners and potential owners and breeders of Arabian horses.
On this particular thread a new breeder or possible breeder was asking how to get started with breeding Arabian horses or something to that effect.
I wish for only one last thing, and it is this, that you would read over your long lengthly posts and see if you wrote just one sentence that possibly could be construed by a new person about to venture his life into Arabian horses, that gave them any words of incouragement that they could succeed and have the blessing of owning Arabian horses as we have.
Shame on you!

Ahhhh so easy to pass blame when hiding behind a veil....
Original post:
Hi,
I would really like to hear some stories about how you became a breeder/studowner etc.
How did you start up?
Did you earn a lot of money before doing some other job, or did you take out a bankloan?
Did you have to keep a job (I emagine you must) on the side, to afford stabling the horses?
What do you think it takes to make a stud profitable?
How many mares did you start off with?
Did you start with a VERY expencive/top quality mare, or did you buy a good mare for a little less money?
When did you first have a stallion (your own/leased) at stud?
I am 18 years old and I can't wait to get my own arabian mare and start breeding. But I haven't finnished school yet, ad therefore don't have a job, so I guess I'll have to wait. But I'm so impatient I want to start now.
Do you have any advice on what I should consider before breding arabians?
Hope for a lot of answers - thanks if you give me one
Stine.
NOW, I believe that each of us who posted answered each question asked. If they had posted "tell me about your best moments with Arabian horses and blow daisies up my rear" I'm sure we could have done that. But that wasnt' the request.
Gosh GUEST, shame on you for not even answering our questions!

Nancy,
All I can say is I'm glad I didn't run into you when I was starting out.

I think the costs of ET are reasonable. No more than the average stud fee. If you have your own stallion and mare, it is possible to get a second foal for far less than the purchase price of a second SE mare. Maybe you need to shop around. I think after you've been in any business for so long you learn how to become savvy. Guest's costs for ET are very close to what I've been quoted. $500 per transfer. And yes you can regumate your own surrogate and bring her along for the one day process. Where do you think the vet clinics get their surrogates? Most are donated or from the track or sale barns for free to cheap. There are alot of grade mares out there in need of a loving home who can carry a foal.

AND NO ET is NOT just for mares who cannot carry a foal.

'Mares are nortorious poor breeders". What do you suggest we use, Chickens?


I think most money is made in how one spends and buys which will increase the profit more than raising the sale price of the horse itself. If you are a breeder and have your own horses, hopefully you have your own stallions and mares to breed from. And hopefully you are educated enough on SE horses to know what goes well with what. I've seen great breeding programs start with less that 5 horses.
If you study out what you want before you get horses, hopefully you make good choices and have only an initial investment in horses, and maybe pick up one here or there down the road, or a few stud services as needed until you breed your own stallion.

Did you know many of the expenses you list are tax deductions? A good accountant may be more of what you need to point these things out for you.

Here's a little success story of my own. When I stated as a young person with Arabian horses, I worked for minimum wage, in less that 20 years, I've retired from working for someone else, and spend my day with my horses. I board a few to cover costs, and pay myself from sales and stud fees. If it were not for the Arabian horses and the blessing they have brought me, I'd probably still be working for someone else and be underpaid and overworked, and be totally bored with life. In fact, I can't remember a day in over 20 years that I haven't found a reason to be thankful for these horses and the happiness they have given me and my family. I've traveled all over because of them, made so many friendships because of them, and can't imagine a day without them.

But I think what you'll find most amazing Nancy is that I was never the maganger of a Large and Successful Company before I got into the business of Arabian horses, but now I am the owner of a small and very successful Arabian business.
I think if you keep telling yourself you can't do it, eventually you will convince yourself you can't.

I know some have failed miserably at this business of horses. But I also think they have something in common. I found those that have stayed in this business are those who started small and grew their business and thought out and planned every move. They reinvested their profits in their own business and not the business of other breeders. You should try to seek your own independence first.

It seems to me your business plan and numbers reflect what it takes to buy your way into the business rather than to work you way in or prove your own talents at breeding, training, showing, and entertaining guests. You seem to want to hire people to do what you should be doing.

My first goal was to impress myself with what I could do on my own, not who else I could impress. I don't think anyone felt any less of me when I started out because I didn't have 5 - 10 people working for me. I was the only one on the payroll. I guess some prefer to sit back and let others do the work for them. Which doesn't work since most people you hire lack the basic characteristic of what it takes to get ahead in life-your personal desire and your personal dedication to success. I really think those starting out or as with any new business need to be very involved personally in all aspects of the business. Too many fingers in the pot, as they say, is the quickest way to spoil the soup.

I really hope to see more people get into Arabian horses. I think they are essentials for daily living.

I just wanted to say it's not all as negative as you make it out to be.

Thanks so much for the votes of confidence. I think one of the worst things we can do is to encourage new breeders with dreams they can't realize. If we recognize that we have to sink substantial sums of money in our venture that we may never recover and still wish to continue on, then we can be very happy. I once had the privledge of visiting with a group of people at Judith Forbis's farm in Kentucky. Someone asked the question about making money with horses. Her reply was "You can expect to spend a lot of money but consider yourself lucky if you break even." I believe that every person who has spent years at breeding will recognize this statement to be true.

After no, I have never had a hired hand in my life. I still go out in the summer and put in 18 hour days bringing in hay, I still clean the barn every day, feed, get up nights with every mare that foals. Although my daughter is the one who starts the young stock now (I don't bounce very well these days!) I am still actively involved in their training. At the moment I have 12 horses. I have often had 16. I don't show at the event but I do attend the class A show in this area as well as others. I have had a champion, reserve champion and most classic, and done well in show hack classes. All this on a home bred horse. We don't show at the Event. Being realistic about the amount of money you can spend is a part of responsible living.

I don't feel I have a negative attitude, but rather after all this time I find that I can look at things in a realistic manner. I think the fact that I am still actively involved speaks for itself.

Dear Nancy, your attitude isn't negative at all - for me it sounds pretty realistic and down-to-earth.
I remember the time when in AHW and AHT breeders tried to encourage every single person to invest their money in Arabians because it should be so easy to make money with horses.
That's nonsense and I am thankful for every new person who get encouraged NOT to begin to breed horse if he or she has profit in mind.
If you have money to spend, if you love horses, if you don't care to make profit - YES, then begin to breed Arabian horses. But don't for the wrong reasons...

Nancy,

I have to add my own encouragement to you. In all I have read on this thread, I have to applaud your common sense and way of communicating the pleasures and the difficulties of being a breeder

Anyone can produce horses.. not everyone can be a breeder, and even fewer of those ever get noticed. It certainly IS expensive, and even though a really nice mare or colt can sometimes be had for reasonable (or even low $$) it is not often that it happens and unless one has a really good eye for a horse it can be disappointing to buy a pedigree and hope the horse lives up to it

I agree with you that folks going in need to know what is/can be/should be involved up front... it will help them to make the sacrifices that it takes to make it work I know it is never easy unless you have an unending stream of $$ to buy the best, improve where needed, etc., show, promote, etc. etc. etc. but not much can be left to chance, or left out...

You just keep right on talking about all this It is helpful and encouraging, certainly not negative...
The only negative I have seen here comes in the form of some GUEST who needles, but never adds to the conversation by sharing what they have done to make their own program work!

Julia

Hi Nancy,
Of course we realize that everone getting envolved with Arabian horses will not succeed and make a profit, just like everyone likes to play baseball but, does that mean that we are all going to turn into
Mickey Mantle.

For everyone that does succeed there are many more that fail and it does become a hobby for most and a expensive hobby but, it certainly isn't fair to assume because a person turned it into a hobby that no one else can ever succeed at Arabian horses as a business.

As for mentioning names and saying that, if they break even they have done okay, well I know them also and they live a beautiful life stye now don't they........

We all know it is tons of hard work and thankless hours with no pay, and in the starting years it is spend, spend, spend.

McKulley 1,
Young Lady, didn't anyone ever tell you that bad language is a
shortage of vocabulary, please don't use that kind of language with me.

With all that said and with fear of sounding vain,I will only say a little about myself.

I started out very poor living near the coal mines and having not much of anything except good family.
I wanted horses from a young boy seeing Roy Rogers and Trigger in the Saturday movies.
I did several important jobs but, always had the horses on my mind, until finally from encouragement from my daughter I let go of the security of the other jobs and did the Arabian Horses full time everyday.
I have been from the East Coast to the West Coast, from Canada to Mississippi, and we have friends in most of those places, thanks to the Arabian horses.
I have a beautiful wife and daughter that loves the horses and all the time it allows us to spend together with the freedom of traveling.
And a great son that we spend quality time together, with his passion, building custom motor cycles
We live in a twenty room house, with several barns, actually an estae would be more like it.
We have had as high as twenty-five SE horses, but found our magic number to be less than ten.
So What do you call success, that is what I call it.

For crying out loud GUEST, what are you talking about? McKulley 1,
Young Lady, didn't anyone ever tell you that bad language is a
shortage of vocabulary, please don't use that kind of language with me.
And next time, sign your name, this hiding behind a false identity is extremely childish.

McKulley1,
You don't need to know a persons name to believe what is said as resonable ideas or not, it is like the horse person looking at a beautiful Arabian horse but, can't make up their mind if it is beautiful or not until they are told it's pedigree to see how it was received by others.

It seems to me that we all need to remember why we are raising Arabian horses in the first place. Surely it is not because of the money issue. Isn't it because of the thrill and challenge of breeding that wonderful foal? Isn't it because we enjoy the company of our horses?

It's been my experience that if a person is proud of the way they do business and how they lead their life, they don't hesitate to give their name, and in fact are proud to.

I personally don't care if my horses are a business or a hobby. They are my life and I love it. There is not a thing I would change.

Thanks everyone for your nice comments. You've made my day

Nancy,

I agree with you. Your words are words of wisdom.

I do not breed horses to make a short term financial profit. I have bred a few nice horses. I hope to breed more in the future. Having horses on our farm, and "living" with them every day is one of the true joys in my life!

I have my own business and have various investments. The "psychic" return on my investment in horses is much more important to me than financial profit. I would encourage many people to have an Egyptian Arabian horse purely for the joy of the bond that develops with the horse.

Young people that want to start in any business should certainly be encouraged, but also cautioned about the challenges of successfully operating a business.

Thanks,

Majid