This is an offshoot of the Millenium thread, which quickly turned into a debate regarding "saddlbred" type movement (and type) in the purebred Arabian. I am curious as to your thoughts on this, and what historical evidence that you may have (old photos etc) to tell me what "true" Arabian movement is (in particular when trotting)?

As the arabian horse is a desert horse - there is a lot of sand and the main gaits the horse would use in an environment like this will be walk and lope.

The trot had to be in a way the horse would need as less energy as possible and as the ground often was a deep one, the horse wouldn't be with a lot of stamina and fast enough in case of emergency when they would step into the air while trotting.

So to bring 50% on the forehand and 50% on the backhand as it is in an usual well balanced trot: the origin arabian would show smooth, soft , flat forwardmotion with middlelong strikes - thats the only way to be economical.

Christina

This could be a very interesting conversation. Please keep it going!! Thanks

I go with ElAcrisi, the horses needed movements that cost minimum energy, so that would mean no vertical trot but a flat, striding motion. The European way of moving...

what do you think of the movement of this horse

I have often heard that the Arab should have a flat trot because of the sand it has to trot through (although most deserts seem to be mainly stone). Would agree that to get from A to B across sand or stone, a high trot does not SEEM to be the most effcient way of moving.

However in the showring we are asking for an excited trot , which in many horses is not the same thing at all as the trot they would use to get from A to B on a hot day with no shoes and and a rider.

The thing that surprised me about many horses from the Middle East that have had no Western intervention in their breeding was the sheer size of their trot when asked to show off - Syrian horses, Saudi horses, Turkish horses and the odd Iraqi horse they can all shift ! It is not a low economical trot either....!

I think the most important thing for a horse on soft / hard or irregular going is BALANCE and CADENCE, to keep the strides as even as possible and minimise slipping, tripping and striking into itself. If a horse has very good balance and cadence and an Arabian temperament, when you ask it to show off, the balance allows it to do these huge trots effortlessly, with tremendous height of knees and hocks, BUT also a range and extension and lightness that is truly a pleasure to watch.

This movement is not the up and down bionic scrabble of the Park Horse, BUT it makes sense that only horses who originally started with balance and cadence could possibly have been forced to acheive this 'performance', so technically aficionados are correct to say that their horses move well (originally) although man of us would agree that after the application of 18 inch curb bit, lead shoes and a rider in a shiny coat on bouncing pertly on the loin, the overall effect has not been improved.

I think it immaterial whether a horse has a lower style trot (like Atlantica say) or a high style trot (like Premier), I have seen both styles in Middle Eastern horses and think both are properly Arabian. To criticise one style in favour of the other is pointless, the important factors are balance and cadence. Once a horse has those he can do anything he likes with them, collected or extended, and as long as sticks his tail up while he is doing it, he is an Arabian.

The trot I truly LOATHE is the on the forehand, base wide fumble with a couple of extended strides shoved in the middle that gets a 19 from judges !!

High knee action is definitively not the way an Arabian should move in my opinion.

Bedu must have surely selected based upon

- ground/distance covering ability (= long strides throwing legs out as far as possible)
- comfort (i.o.w. balanced & regular movements like Emma said), especially since most bedu always rode without stirrups
- terrain (there probably was a difference between horses bred in softer desert and stone/mountain deserts)

Considering that the bedu rode without stirrups, it could also be that trot was not used very often under saddle? I can imagine they prefered a fast walk and gallop? They usually took they horses along attached to their camels and jumped on their horses for fighting, ghazu's and hunting gazelles.

Solely a high knee action is in my opinion definitively not a natural movement. The bedu horses probably had to trot mostly when they were traveling alongside the camels and probably started imitating the camels trot , bringing the knee a bit up and than trowing the legs out as far as possible to gain extra ground in order to keep up with the camels?

This is the movement I like to see more. Bringing the knee up (so that they don't stumble over everything lying on the ground) but throwing their legs out to cover ground at the same time. When knee action trot it's very pretty to see but that's only a movement possible in sheer exitement not to keep up (like they way they sometimes can gallop like a deer, basically jumping or hopping)

Emma, you have hit the nail on the head, as I would have expected of you. The photo of the grey demonstrates perfectly, the freedom of the forehand and engagement of the hindlegs, with that moment of complete suspension. Liz Salmon

http://www.ahlegacy.com/marclip.htm - El Mareekh

http://www.ahlegacy.com/salonclip.htm - Salon

http://www.ahlegacy.com/baskclip.htm - Bask

http://www.ahlegacy.com/huckclip.htm - Huckleberry Bey

http://www.ahlegacy.com/kiratclip.htm - Kirat

http://video.csupomona.edu/WKKArabianEvents/2001.htm - more videos at Kellogg's - click on Polish Arabian Symposium, Part 1 and 2 as they show some horses in liberty.

Kellogg also has the Bahrain tape.

Arabian Horse Legacy has lots of great videos for sale, not cheap. If one is interested in buying a video, the one of the Russian horses at the Stratmore farm are fantastic.

Of the first 5 listed above, the order of preference for me are: El Mareekh, Kirat, Salon, Bask, then Huckleberry Bey.

Can you pick out a horse from these video that would make a good study for describing a good Arabian movement?

Below are examples of horses. Can anyone guess breed of these horses and describe the trot of these horses:











Credits will be given later.

Can you also guess the breed of these two horses below and explain why:



No cheating!!

Photographers unknown.

To watch Hey Hallelujah ++ as am example of EP / Park seen in today's US Show ring - follow this link: http://www.equinevideo.com/arabians/stallions.htm - it's a long video. The Park classes are seeing a decline in the number of show entries with a very small number of horses remaining sound for many years.

Some more examples of the winners at the NSH World Championships:



Heartland Equality- WC Hackney Pony - Credits to Stuart Vesty (click on Properties with right mouse)



Saddlehorse - WC Heir About Her - Credits to Stuart Vesty (click on Properties with right mouse)

WC Hackney Pony Heartland Equality victory pass

Credit to Stuart Vesty (click with right mouse on Properties for link)

WC Walk Trot - Heir About Her - Credits to Stuart Vesty (click on Properties).



2003 World Champion Amateur 5-gaited horse
Callaway's Born to Win (click on Properties for credits to Stuart Vesty).

OK spiker I'll Venture a Guess,

this is a Morgan horse, as a matter of fact I think it is even a Lippit foundation bred. It is me second favorite breed since it does, at least in my opinion, resemble an Arabian with more substance.
It is a true American Warmblood, in actuality much more useful in athletic endeavors that a quarter horse, which due to musculature is limited to high effort in short bursts. That is except the running QH with 50 to 75% TB blood.

Just an opinion, but seems you asked??
Regards
JAL

JAL,

Thanks for your participation. No, not one is a Morgan nor a Lippit!

As for the two side by side black and white photos of two stallions in trot mode, it is interesting that some people cannot guess but others can. I guessed right. One clue is very obvious. Let's see what kind of answers we get here! Emma? Liz? Hansi? Ralph?

I'll venture a guess on the two horses in black and white:

I'm going to say National Show Horses

I was really torn between Saddlebred and Arab, so, I'm going to say they are the combination!

One of the two horses in the black and white photos is a Saddlebred. Which one is it and the other one is...? They are purebreds in their respective breeds.

When I was talking about flat, economical trott than I remembered my experiences as a vet for endurence horses and these horses are doing a similar job to the old beduins.

When a horse is trotting like Monogramm - I personally really like it - than I would say great for the show ring or for dressage - for endurance - even if the horse is very well balanced and uphill in deep ground these kind of movement will have a big stress on the tendons and the fetlock and on hard ground the angle of step on the ground is a flat one that brings much more stress on the hof and fetlock, the horse isn't as sicure on the feet in fast speed - so it's a bigger risk to stay sound for a long time in case the horse is ridden in this gait.

When I was talking about economical than I was interested in beeing fast, with stamina and healthy for a long time.

But a good bred horse not just have a good walk or galopp, also the trot will be a good one as the examples Emma was talking about show. But often a horse has a extraordionary trott but an awful walk and galopp - and this is not the goal.

Christina

It's easy- the one of the left is a Saddlebred.....

Emma, This is truly the BEST post I've read in regards to movement. Really, it is absolutly fabulous!

Left is an ASB. Look at the neck, kind of trot, and tail set. Not to mention head. The second is an arabian, as I've mentioned before, a completely different trot. Perhaps the same height to the trot, but the Arabian will always have the more forward, driving trot with flexability through the front end where the ASB, Hackney, and many NSH will have the more upright sewing machine trots.

The 4th is an Arabian, again, more flexibilty through the front end, and I"ve seen this horse move, take off the shoes an if ridden like a dressage horse, this horse has amazing extension. It's all about how MAN can manipulate, not how the horse can move. These "english" horses can go on to have different careers by the change in how they are managed and how they are ridden.
The horses in the video, you could take MOST any one of them, stick weights and a double bridle on them and they'd trot like "an english" horse. Again, it's how one is managed as to what they can do. JMO

The one on the right in the black and white photo is LE HAIFI - AHR*97416, a 1973 chestnut stallion. His pedigree has Kuhailan Haifi, Amurath Sahib, Ferseyn, Hanad, Nurredin, Astroled, Skowronek, etc. But what's even more interesting is his tail female line is Rodania, the current topic in the inherent strain thread. With a small progeny list, he was not so sought after as many other "fad" stallions. Even with a straight profiled head, it's easy to spot him as a purebred Arabian horse. He probably wouldn't "win" anywhere in the world since he probably would not garner a high score in head and neck, in spite of a good movement score. He probably could get a "Triple Crown" in USA easily.

Hard to judge by photos without seeing the horse(s) in the flesh but comments are based on photos only.

As for the ASB versus Le Haifi (name of ASB not provided), they are different. However, when people comment that some of our Arabian horses look like ASBs, it means that it's the closest that people can describe of a purebred Arabian horse that doesn't look like a purebred Arabian horse according to the breeding description. Not necessarily an "ASB" but yields the influence of an ASB look, rather saying that the horse is not as per the breed standards and description.

See the difference between Le Haifi's neck to today's "Long, hooky, snaky neck with an extended poll" that some people believe is necessary for bridling in English Pleasure and Park.

Of the color photos, the first four are ASB, taken from the ASB website under the Gallery for Contemporary ASBs. The last two are purebred Arabians. The chestnut under saddle is MHR Nobility. The last photo is indeed a purebred Arabian horse. I no longer have this issue so don't have his name.

The postings of the NSH WC photos were for a reason...to show what the horses look like, how they are ridden, and what they have to go through, in a NSH and Renai show ring. The only positive comment that I can make is the vividity of the colors in the photos.

Thank you all for your replies, especially Christina, Emma and Patrick. I do agree that you can have some knee action, but not in the extremes. Asfour (when showing off) would be an example of this.... he inherited some knee action from his dam Hanan.... the obvious diffrenece between his trot and the saddlebred type trot is that his arse and hocks are right in under him, powering him along, so that although he is flashy in front, he is still "going somewhere". His type also makes him unmistakeably Arabian. The grey horse posted by Patrick has, to my mind, ideal working horse movement. Who is that horse?

The photos (two horses side by side) I would guess the first one is a saddlebred and the second a NSH. Why? The giveaways to me are the first horse's head, his movement, and his tail carriage (which looks unnatural). His back and neck are also very stiff. I think the second one has some Arabian in him because his tail carrigae looks more natural and he has more fluidity to his movement than the other one (but still his hocks are trailing and is on the forehand pulling himself along rather than pushing). His head is long thick and plain so I wouldn't say he was a pure Arab.

The other photos I can't see too well on my computer but I would say all are NSHs or saddlebreds apart from the 2nd one where I would guess Anglo. The 4th one might be Arabian (from looking at its rump) but I can't see it's head to make an educated guess.

To see a better photo of MHR Nobility:

http://www.awhitehorse.com/horsesmouth/upl.../images/410.jpg

Mary_M, you've just summarized what I'm trying to say. Instead of promoting the purebred Arabian horse as a total package as per breeding standards, America is pushing for and awarding the extreme trot while sacrificing the Arabian Type and the head.

I remember watching Kaliya's video against some of the American "EP / Park" videos. No comparison. Kaliya has the better Arabian movement.

What's even strange is that the winner of the Most Classic Head at the last two local class A shows have straight profiles over others with concave heads, big eyes, and wide foreheads, signifying that a straight profile is preferred over a concaved head. Which contradicts the breed standard. One of the judges was Richard Petty, which explains alot...

Let's just attack everyone who doesn't agree with us! Richard Petty is a great judge...sounds like sour grapes to me.

I didn't say Richard Petty is a bad judge. Just that he chose the straight profile over a concave profile because of Barbary. Does it make him a bad judge? No. Just that we know which horse to show under him for that class as well as halter.

Why are the horses in America ridden this way? The head's so far in the air, no use of back, rear end isn't under the weight, rider sits on the kidneys. This is not good for the horse! Are they also trained this way, or do they learn to be loose and relaxt over the back as well? This is not an offence to anybody but when this is showed in Europe you'll be linched...

So many of these horses are hollow in the back, that they can't engage properly. If a horse is balanced and cadenced the diagonal pairs of legs in the air should be the same angle and position in flight, the diagonal pair on the ground should hit the ground at the same time. In flight the hind leg should well reach right under the stomach, which shows the slight lowering of the hind quarter, a rounded back and true engagement—it's the same for saddleseat or dressage. Looking at many photos, this certainly is not the case. The photo of the grey stallion at liberty shows perfect balance. With the extended trot in dressage, as the diagonal pair of legs reach their extension, the extended hind leg (left hind and the left fore) form a V under the horses belly. In an excellent moving horse, there should be a very brief moment of suspension when all four legs are off the ground, when they are loose or shown by someone like Emma who can keep up !!

Having ridden many saddle seat trained horses, I found the majority to be very stiff and hollow in the back, the neck was often also very stiff, and there was no suppleness or bend in the body. At the University, I was often sent ex EP horses to retrain for other divisions. It took a long time to get them to be comfortable to stretch their head and neck downwards—they were afraid of being jerked up all the time. I did ride one or two that had been dressage trained first before being ridden saddleseat, they were so much easier and soon came back. Most good Western trainers use dressage methods—after all the word 'dressage' merely means in French to train a horse to be supple and obedient. I enjoy watching a well trained supple horse with a good rider in what ever division. I did watch several English Pleasure classes at Scottsdale, I would say that only about a quarter of the classes if that, had their horses engaging properly, so many were jerky and fussy in the mouth. The Purebreds always seem to have a hard time, but the Half Arabs are far more easy going and natural. Just my opinion and observation. Liz Salmon

To be fair, I also see many dressage horses that lack true engagement, particularly when they progress to first level where they have to show some lengthened strides. So many people ooh and aah about what the front end is doing, without concern for the engine at the rear, which might only be a 4 cylinder instead of a V8 !! Liz Salmon

And I've also seen many "english" horses that can perform better dressage movements than the dressage horses, and many that are extremely supple, engaged, and willing. If the horse is conformed to do it, it will do it properly. It's when man decides the horse should do it, and it really isn't put together TO do it where you see the problems.
JMO

Okay....this is the LAST I am going to say on this issue but:

Liz, I have NO idea what you've been watching, because DA Trinidad (the Scottsdale Champ EP Jr.Horse) was moving well off all four corners. The Junior horse class was fabulous. Their noses aren't "in the air" it's higher form of collection- ie: upper Dressage levels. My friends' National TT English horse performs lateral moves with ease- over several horses that were BRED to be Dressage horses. Also, Saddleseat is NOT easy to ride, and at first it requires a lot of control and security of the seat. If you notice too- a lot of trainers ride a somewhat more "foward" seat as to not be too far back on the horse.

Well I'm sorry, but collection means:
The horse brings the weight to the rearlegs, the front rises and the strides become calm but energetic. The rearlegs should be, as Liz says, under the body instead of behind.
That's not what I see on the pictures.

This is what I call collection:

Note:
Offcourse this is piaffe, but I think the idea is obvious.

IN THE PICTURES! I AM NOT ARGUING ANYMORE! It's a moot point. If you aren't educated enough to appreciate it- fine. But don't judge based on pictures. If you knew anything you'd KNOW that these horses are EXTREMELY collected.

Collection is a subjective item!! I'm not basing on pictures, I have seen how these horses are ridden. What you may call collection is not the same to me! I think a collected horse goes with use of back and rear end. But I think we'll never agree on this subject...

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates.../BedTriLAB.html

Inside this chapter written by Lady Anne Blunt:



As for the hindquarters:

Same concept, it's just that the first horse is moving faster than the second, and the first has more weight on the front shoes than the first, thus more knee (and again, the more spead in the first horse has to do with it than the standing piaffe second horse)

The first horse is hollow in the back, you can't draw a 'bow' from tail to head. The line is broken. The second horse is completely round. It carries itself with lightness and power from behind.

excuses excuses

Could you explain what a bow is? Also, an Arabian will never be Ferro.

jumping in at the deep-end (as usual) the following may assist with True Collection (Equine Studies Ins) and then suggest looking really carefully at the illustrations on this thread.



"...per breeding standards,..."? Perhaps Bedouin breeding standards allowing for more conformational variety (within reason) which is in the Arabian Horse Breed?

There are stills and video on my stallion's webpage if interested - these represent my preference within the Arabian Breed. Undersaddle photos are being processed

Emma - nice post

As per breeding standards...refer to the link: http://www.usef.org/content/rules/ruleBook/2004/, Article 1602. I do not know when it was written an who wrote the standards either. There was an attempt to revise it about 5 to ten years ago but the draft redlines did not make it through. But I presume that the breeding standards as written in Article 1602 were based on the characteristics of this breed bred by the Bedouins for thousands of years.

Thanks for the link. The explanation of True Collection as per Deb Bennett explains the hollow back issue along with the elk neck. Also, just to name a few differences, the seat, neck, and feet are different between the two horses.

I mean the line you can draw from tail to ears, you can read it in the piece Diane posted.
And, offcourse, an Arabian will never be Ferro thank God, but collection is collection, wheter it's an Arabian or a warmblood.

I agree with guest, the arabian on the pic has nothing to do with correct collected because the bow isn't tighten over the tendons/fascies/abdominalmuscel-system, that's like yo try to pla a violine with a bow with loosen strings. The rider and the horse are not in balance with their center of gravity and the horse trys hart to get under - for that he is uphill together with a handposition that's way to high than for a correct and physical smooth working position.

If the rider wouldn't have stuff to help him to get the horse in this position, the horse wouldn't be able to do: Sit behind center of gravidity, long hoof with more wight on the front , bit with long shank together with high hand position in a interrupted rein/hand/arm-line to shift up the front end with the riders hands and not the uphill of going more under with the hindquaters!

I have seen these horses in the show ring and when the competition is over they are excited like hell and not able to stay still and relax and drop the head down like it should after a normal riding lesson.

I also have pooved a couple backs of such horses and they are very stiff and often with pain reaction and also the sideway movement was a pathological -
and for what reason they should carry more whight and longer unphysiologial hooves and why should the rider sit behind center of gravidity in case it's natural way?



I think this type of movement, like on this (sorry very small ) pic (Malik by Hadbahn Enzahi x Mahlika) shows what I was talking before: economical, smooth, fluently, with natural uphill motion and covering a lot of ground with one step and it looks very balanced. This type looks also very comfortable for a rider but also for the horse.
JMO
Christina

Christina, I have nothing to add. Your explanation is very clear.
And that's exactly the kind of motion I like to see in an Arabian.
I hope that someday these horses will be ridden without so much
hand and with more strength from behind.

An Arabian and dressage enthusiast

The rider sitting over the centre of gravity is important. The faster the horse goes, the further forward the centre of grvaity becomes, which is why riders jumping or racing adopt a forward position. In those 2 photos, the saddleseat rider is behind the centre of gravity and pulling the horses front up with a high hand position—this is what creates a hollow back, and stiffness throughout the skeleton. Sometimes I feel that if the reins were cut the rider would fall off backwards—this is not true collection, and this is what I most often see in those classes. The dressage rider is sitting in the centre of gravity, with the horse carrying itself naturally and lightly, with the hind legs very well engaged.

In the photo of the the grey horse above, you can see the V just about to form as the diagonal pair of legs are a split second from touching the ground. You can indeed judge true collection very often from photos or slow motion video, from the positioning of the legs at any one moment. Liz Salmon

Hence, the emphasis on long, hooky, snaky necks with lengthening polls (read the latest on Baske Afire in the AHT / AHW's) which breeds in long backs. In regards to the breeding standards via USEF and short backs, some American breeders wondered why a short back is part of the breeding standards and where to put a cutback saddle on a short back.