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Hillary
I have heard that the jones family from the uk brought the champion signature colt from scottsdale. first of all congratulations to them.

I would like to add, i know this colt is SCID positive. do we really need this horrible disease coming into England.It causes so much pain to owners and the foals involved. as far as we know there is no SCID in England do we want it?
I think the jones family should be fair to the breeders of the UK and not stand this colt at public stud, this can only bring harm to the arabain industry in the uk.

i would like to here views of other breeders in the uk and europe about this matter.

Hillary
jamat
First of all i think you are being very narrow minded in your post

If people know the SCID status of a horse they can make an INFORMED decision on wether they want to use him or not, and as long as they know by test that there mare is negative then a foal that will be affected with SCID will NEVER be produced, and I belive it is a 50% chance of being a carrier or clear. If people choose to use this horse because he has superior qualities that they want to incorporate into their breeding program then as long as they are committed to testing the foals from these breedings and making the apropriate choices in the future depending on the result of the tests then i think there is no problem. Its called breeding responsibaly
Also i would question your statement that SCID is not in England it is my understanding that there are cases of it in most if not all countries and a lot of different bloodlines.
Please correct me if i am wrong on this point.
Jo
Guest_mckulley1
I disagree, she's not narrow minded, she has one view on the subject of usage of a Carrier. And that's fine by me. I would not purchase or breed to a known Carrier, and make it a point to avoid lines that are proven to carry this trait. That is my perogative. I don't care if the individual is shedding diamonds, he/she is not for me. And if I had firm proof that my area had no carriers in it, and then someone introduced a breeding horse who DID, I would be upset as well. Could I do anything about it? No, I would just have to avoid using them. And hope that my area was not overrun by this blood to the point where I would have to import my own breeding stock...as is the case for many "overused" breeding stallions/lines. JMO
Gari
Saints preserve us!.....First of all there is every reason to believe that SCID was first discovered in British bred horses and it has been in the UK since Arabians were first imported there-just as it was in the desert breds and every other line that has ever existed. It was always most prevalent in anything carrying Crabbet because Crabbet blood was the most widespread worldwide.

Secondly using an SCID carrier stallion is perfectly safe on a non carrier mare (or vice versa), it just simply must be used with discretion. Responsible breeders test all their horses and if breeding to a known carrier, but the horse is otherwise desireable-go for it as long as one's own horse is not a carrier. Having an SCID carrier is a whole lot safer and in the long run cheaper, than one which has transmissable defects of wind and limb that are not so easily tested for and measured. Moreover, because of testing procedures great horses and their genes are not lost. That is one of the most important considerations of all.

The important thing to remember is that a responsible, honorable breeder tests their stallions and always discloses whether or not the stallion is a carrier stallion. If they don't know and haven't tested-don't use those lines.

Hillary, the Jones are well-known reputable breeders. Think you were deliberately manure stirring and are way out of line.
HartzArabians
Very narrowminded post IMO.

If it is known the horse has SCID then there is no reason why people can't use it as Jamat said as long as you test the mare and she is clear them there cam be no harm in it. You just need to be responsible. I think if the horse was everything else I was looking for then I would still use it regardless of the SCID. In the scale of bad things SCID rates pretty low for me... i think club feet and offset cannons are much more hideous!!!
Guest_mckulley1
Whether or not she was stirring the pot...whatever...have no idea, and don't want to go there.
And there is no reason why someone could choose NOT to use a carrier, personal choice and no one should be put on the stake for their discretion on whether or not to use a particular horse or line. Period. If you choose to use a SCIDs line, test, if you choose to not use a line, test. Point blank.
I would agree with Gari, highly likely SCIDs is in the UK, though..
Gari
Per UCD-SCID is not only in EVERY Arabian horse breeding country it can be found in ALL lines no matter their origin.

Would urge all who have some misconceptions on the seriousness of the disease to take a course in equine genetics or simply genetics. The breeding to a carrier stallion - as long as your mare is a non carrier is very like to result in a non carrier. As noted above -the critical point is to test EVEN when you know that both sire and dam are NON-carriers. This is just to be on the safe side. Have recently heard from two different vets that SCID has occurred even in those tested SCID:CLEAR!!! Really a major mystery....lousey testing procedures? Or the possibility that SCID is a mutation, something Howie Kale once speculated in an interview well over a decade ago.
Liz Salmon
As Gari says SCID has been in the UK for a very long time, I've known about it for at least 35 years or more. Now that there is a test, it's something not to be so concerned about, as long as people are honest in declaring any positive stallion. Most stallions nowadays are tested and declared SCID free. Any stallion that is not should be questioned by a potential breeder before using that stallion.

From the research I did in the UK, it can probably be traced back to Nasra, the dam of Naseem. However, I would say that most Arabian breeding countries and bloodlines have had carriers. I personally wouldn't hesitate to use an outstanding carrier stallion, provided my mare was tested. Liz Salmon
jamat
QUOTE (Gari @ Mar 14 2004, 05:07 AM)
As noted above -the critical point is to test EVEN when you know that both sire and dam are NON-carriers.  This is just to be on the safe side.  Have recently heard from two different vets that SCID has occurred even in those tested SCID:CLEAR!!! Really a major mystery....lousey testing procedures?  Or the possibility that SCID is a mutation, something Howie Kale once speculated in an interview well over a decade ago.

Wow Gari
what shock those results would have been to the owners, does make you think tho doesn't it, there is more to learn about
SCID obviously as a test has only been available for a few years it may still need refining (?) or we may well find out one day that it is a mutated gene so is there for ramdon in aplication. Personally i think all breeding stock should be tested for SCID at the same time as they are DNA typed that way all breeding decisions would be informed.

I have tested my breeding mare and was pleased she was negative biggrin.gif , I will also test the mare i am currently purchasing. I would still use a carrier if he was everything i wanted in a stallion and my mare was clear, as i intend on testing my fillies before breeding with them anyway.

@ mckully I agree that to breed to a carrier or not is a indervidual decision.

But the first post was quite mean in content as this person can surely not know wether the horse would be at public stud and wether the new owners would disclose the information. mad.gif
Saying there is no SCID in her area of England sounds more like she is not at all up with information on SCID.
I read the first post as manure stirring as well, and think that it was very unfair to say the things she did. To me it was having a dig at the jones'
AND she did ask for peoples opinions which is what she is getting.

To the original poster
what proof do you have that this horse is SCID posative? have you seen a posative test result? or are you going on hearsay?
jennie
I think the whole point here that most are trying to make is that SCID is easily manageable with the testing available. The whole POINT of having the test available is to never have an affected foal, and to be able to CONTINUE to use the bloodlines repsonsibly.

I also would have no problem breeding to a carrier stallion, should he be of the quality I look for, and be complementary to my mares. However, I would not do such a breeding without testing my mares first.
Guest_Mirage
I would like to congratulations to Rhodri Jones on his new Versace colt - he won his class in Scottsdale and I have seen the photos and he is absolutely stunning! It is no secret that he is a SCID carrier and mare owners can then make an informed choice whether they want to use him or not! How many other stallions in the UK have been tested for SCID and with what results?
Dragon
I just came off the phone with Emrys from WALES and this post did not suprise him
and we wondered if you were a computer expert working in the field of tracking these
things maybe Hilary,s idendity could be revealed ph34r.gif
This is Rhodri,s first horse of his own he phoned me from Scottsdale and he was very exited and yes he told me he was Scid positive.
Rhodri as handled many winners and he as looked and saved for a SPECIAL Horse
and he believes he as found one "A Opinion shared with a few old horsemen"
This colt will not stand at public stud saying that there is a long queue of Mares and the Mare at the head of the Queue is our own Satin Lady if Rhodri goes up that road.
We have no idea how many horses in the UK have Scid and Hilary shows its ignorance
in this matter trouble makers do not worry about the FACTS.
The chances are this thread will turn Nasty that was good old Hilary,s intention if we can find out what hilary is lets face it could be anybody Man, Woman Cross Dresser anything
How many will "come out" and say they would use a Scid positive Stallion.
And then if you had your Mare tested and she was Scid positive would you stop breeding with her or use a Scid free Stallion.
A North American Vet told me 16% of all the Horses tested were Scid Positive if that is right i have no verification. We have six females and have never tested as Hilary tested ohmy.gif
Dragon
Mike
"No SCID in England" !!!!!..........I now have several bruises where I fell off my chair!!!!!! Please, please don't drop any more such gems on me unannounced, I may not escape with mere bruising next time! tongue.gif

To anyone with a shred of common sense SCID doesn't rate as a major issue for a breeder, as previous posters have more than adequately demonstated. As to whether or not I would breed a mare to a carrier stallion, then assuming that he was the right horse for the mare and she had been tested negative then I see no reason not to!

Mike
Tom Oben
I saw Rhods colt in Scottsdale winning the colt signature class. He is of a ve wink.gif ry high quality. Extreme face and fabulous movements! Congratulations Rhod and Family with this colt! Good luck with him this coming season.

Greets wink.gif
Liz Salmon
For some reason, ignorant and ill informed people still think that SCID can somehow be passed on if it appears somewhere in the pedigree, regardless of whether both parents are tested SCID free. I have amazed a few breeders by pointing out known carriers in their horse's pedigree. These days it's no big deal, and I think the original poster was maliciously trying to stir up trouble. Liz Salmon
Liz Salmon
Believe me, I'm not beating up on US horses—many of the finest have been bred here and still are in my opinion. Why else have I helped US owners sell so many of them overseas ? If you knew me you would know that I cannot sell horses I don't like or stand by myself—I couldn't sleep at night. I just see far more club feet here that anywhere else I have judged, or reported on shows—that's all. Many times trainers have tried to disguise them, which is why any discerning breeder will never bred to a stallion they have not seen in person. As you know surgical alterations have been much in the news over the last few years—it's gross fraudulence. Liz Salmon
Dick
QUOTE
See, this is where you and I differ. I see testing as a way to irradicate something, you see testing as a way to continue to harbor something semi safely.


There is no question that the SCID genetic marker test will lead over time to the eradication of SCID in Arabian horses. The question is "how fast".

One school of thought is "in one generation" by not breeding to any SCID carrier horses.

Another school of thought is to slowly reduce the incidence over time by testing breeding animals and using SCID information to prevent the production of affected foals as well as providing breeders with vital information that they should consider in making a breeding decision. There are many wonderful non SCID horses to choose from so only really superior SCID positive horses will end up being used. This is all ready happening.

I see no reason to condemn either approach. They are both legitimate and ultimately it is the owners/breeders that make the trade off decisions and we should respect their right to choose even though they may make different choices than we ourselves would make.

The only choice I personally would condemn is the choice to breed carrier to carrier either deliberately or through ignorance.
Guest_mckulley1
Again, Thank you Dick. There are always two sides to every coin and neither side is wrong....

BUT I'd still be interested to here about the "history" of SCID...if anyone knows?
Rose
I think Dick has said it all.

But, I would really hope that anyone contemplating using a scid stallion would have the sense, to have had their mares tested clear first, and not encourage others to just use the stallion because they intend to do so.

My understanding is that if you send a clear mare to a scid stallion you may breed a carrier of scid? this would be a foal that obviously lives, but has the ability to carry the scid gene onto the next generation?
Now the UK has great difficulty in getting a scid test done, thanks to the Americans with- drawing the patent from the UK. A test can be done but I think it costs more?

Seems sad that we all are in the dark about the finer details here?
Dick
>BUT I'd still be interested to here about the "history" of SCID...if anyone knows?

Nobody knows specifically. The current hypothesis is that SCID occurred as a spontaneous genetic defect in a single horse. The gene involved is essential for the development of the immune system. It only take one copy of the gene to make the immune system develop. The spontaneous genetic defect did not harm the horse that it occured in nor it's direct progeny. A healthy horse that has the genetic defected is said to be a carrier.

It is only when two carriers are bred that an affected foal can be produced. The probablities of breeding carrier to carrier are 25% affected, 50% carrier and 25% clear. An affected foals immune system doesn't develop as it should. This leaves the foal susceptiable to infections once the protection from the mares colostrum wares off. This usually occurs between 6 weeks and 3 months. The foals die from various infections. This is why SCID is described as being like AIDS that is the immune system is "deficient". That is what ID stands for in both; "Immune deficiency". AIDS however is "acquired" while SCID is inherited.

People used to believe that SCID occured first in horses outside the middle east and therefore SCID was a marker for "impurity". This is certainly NOT TRUE. The genetic defect has never been seen in another breed unless the breed had Arabian blood. In addition NOT ALL of the SCID horse known trace to one single horse. Furthermore there are reports from the bedouin that they lost foals to symptoms similar to SCID.

This leaves us with the following conclusion. A desert horse long ago spontaneously had a genetic defect. This defect was spread throughout the desert horses through breeding. Various horses from this line were exported to different countries and depending upon the popularity of the export in the various breeding groups SCID was established in the Western herd.

In regard to the discussion of SCID in the UK... SCID is most certainly existent in the UK Arabian herd and has been for a long time. An early and highly popular Crabbet horse was most assuredly an SCID carrier and accounts for one of the most common lines amongst SCID carriers.
Guest_mckulley1
Thank you Dick! I sure wish that the origonal adventures to the desert had people follow up on these spontaneous losses of foals, at least there'd be some solid history behind it for which to follow...
This is why SCID is described as being like AIDS that is the immune system is "deficient".
Well jeeze.....guess I wasn't THAT far off as I was made to believe.... rolleyes.gif
Liz Salmon
I have just been passed some information that appeared in an Australian magazine in 1980. I do vaguely remember reading this at the time, but had forgotten it, however the conclusions were the same as mine. It's fairly long.

"There was a really interesting article published in
the June 1980 issue of the Australian Arabian Horse News. The article was
written by P. M. Wright, CBE, MA and entitled "CID An Assessment of its
Significance to the Arabian Horse and a Speculation about its Origin." He
analyzed three consecutive volumes of the "British Arab Stud Book" for foal
deaths (since barren, slipped, and dead foals are reported) and studied
their pedigrees. The horse he stated he suspected most was Feysul.
Here is a quote from the 2nd page of the article:
"Can we take the possible origin of C.I.D. any further? Zobeyni comes twice
in Feysul's pedigree but is in my view unlikely to be the source. If he
were, C.I.D. would be spread much more widely in the breed as he is in
almost every British pedigree. The only other horse that is suspicious is
Bint Nura II which was the dam of Daoud. Daoud's sire was Mesaoud. Although
I have not got as good evidence of Daoud being a carrier as I believe I
have of Feysul, I am almost convinced that the mare, Nasra, was a carrier..
Her sire is Daoud. I also find that of the few horses which do not go back
to Feysul but which I strongly suspect were or are carriers all go back to
Daoud as do many of the descendants of Feysul."
Bint Nura II (aka Bint Bint Nura Es Shakra), Feysul & Daoud are all from the same
taproot mare, Nura, a grey mare of Ali Pasha Sherif, date of birth not
recorded, died circa 1877, who was the dam of Bint Nura circa 1870, bay by
Zobeyni, who was dam of Bint Nura II 1885 chestnut by Aziz, imported to
Crabbet 1897, died 1912. Ibn Nura is by Sotamm ex Bint Nura. Ibn Nura is
the sire of Feysul. Presumably Bint Nura II & her dam had to inherit the
CID gene from somewhere ....
My guess is that one of the reasons SCID is uncommon in SE's is that there
were less of these particular lines in Egypt as they mostly came to UK -
except through Ghazieh, Ibn Yashmak, Ibn Nura & Bint Rissala. Ghazieh
(1897) had at least 10 foals at Sheykh Obeyd, plus 2 which died. Suspect
she escaped being a carrier as several of her foals were by Feysul.

As far as I can be see, the ones that stayed in Egypt of this immediate line
near its beginning were:
Ghazieh (1897 by Ibn Nura ex Bint Horra) who was at Sheykh Obeyd; and
Kawkab (no date, grey) by Ibn Sherara ex Bint Nura II. Ones that came to
Crabbet included Bint Nura II, Mahruss, Feysul, Jallabieh, Fulana, Ibn
Yashmak & Bint Bint Azz. Ibn Yashmak (by Feysul) went back to Egypt in
1920 along with his son, Mabrouk Blunt. If I was specifically looking for
SCID in Egyptian lines, I'd look in these lines first. Another to go to
Egypt, a mare which founded a big family in Egypt was Bint Rissala (Razieh)
1920 by Feysul ex Yashmak. Although of course Bint Rissala was almost
certainly not a carrier, as she had loads of foals and founded a huge
family and surely if she'd been a carrier something would have come to
light by now.

And of course those Crabbet horses went everywhere from very early on (late
1800s, early 1900s) - Russia, S Africa, Australia, Spain, USA, Argentina,
Poland, to name but a few. It gets very confusing since so many tens of
thousands of horses trace to these 3 particular horses on one line or
another, but many are of course also SCID clear. I know the 25%/25% etc etc generalisation for inheritance of SCID is often quoted, but I know for sure of a stallion here in UK (imported from USA)
that had many many foals before his first confirmed SCID foals. You can in
real life, as opposed to on paper, get 4, 8, 10, 20, 100 or whatever clear
foals in a row, it's the luck of the genetic draw! It won't necessarily be
two carriers, a clear and an affected one after the other as the statistics
make it look."

I do also know of an Australian stallion that sired 80 foals before a SCID foal came up. Liz Salmon
Guest_mckulley1
This is great info!
Gari
We probably need CVM 2002 for the most recent updates here, but Dick perhaps you can correct me if I am wrong but you made note of the point that there have been cases in horses that have not any Crabbet blood of which we are aware. One vet noted to me that tho' originally appearing in horses of Crabbet blood (and Rodania was most certainly one of the ones cited by Washington State, per an MD/breeder who visited some years ago) it subsequently appeared spontaneously in ALL lines - the events occuring, '.... with amazing synchronicity.' Wouldn't that suggest something triggering or perhaps a common mutation? Secondly, isn't it a two in four chance that a non carrier bred to a carrier will produce a carrier?
bterlaan
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the statistics regarding SCID. I myself often get confused by the way statistics are explained: in percentages. It is much easier to use proper numbers, which is what I did for SCID. I hope this helps to focus thoughts about this hereditary deviation (SCID is not an illness by itself). It should be borne in mind that horses may be free, carriers of affected. Free and carrier horses are perfectly healthy horses. Affected horses die at an early age of a “normal” illness like pneumonia. They never mature to breeding age, so they do not play a role in hereditary calculations.

This is about risk calculation. There is always a coincidental factor in that. It means that if you have a 1 in 4 chance of something, it is not so that only after three times you have a guaranteed hit. You, in your own private situation, may hit immediately, or twice after another, or never. The numbers only “work” if you have truly big amounts of horses and breedings, which hardly any of us have. This is just to get an idea of the risk of SCID within the overall Arab horse population (which is a big number), an attempt to get things in perspective.

First, the question about how many of the foals of the combination of two carriers are actually affected :
Two carriers bred together have a 1 in 4 chance of producing an affected foal. This is because each parent has both a good (indicated as S) and a bad (indicated as s) gene, of which they can pass on only one. Now suppose the first parent passes on the good gene. It may then combine with either the bad or the good gene of the other parent, which gives two possibilities: SS and Ss, or a free and a carrier foal. If the first parent gives on the bad gene, which again may combine with either the good or the bad gene of the other parent, this gives again two combinations: sS and ss: a carrier and a sick foal. So in total we have four combinations SS, Ss, sS and ss (100%). As you see there is only 1 of the four possibilities (25%) that gives ss, the sick foal. Two possibilities are carriers (Ss and sS; 50%) , and one of the four possibilities (25%) is a free foal (SS). It also shows that an SS horse can never pass on the bad gene (s), because it does not have it. It also shows that two carriers may produce a free foal.
A carrier (Ss) bred to a free horse (SS) results in the following possibilities: If the carrier passes on his good gene it can only combine with a good gene of the free horse (the only genes it has are good): SS. If the carrier passes on his bad gene, it also can only combine with the good gene of the free horse: sS. So all foals (100%) will be healthy, but half of them (50%) are carriers (right, Gari).

Now as to the second question: why can a carrier take so long to give a sick foal (Liz Salmon)?
The above calculations only apply to the combination of two carriers. But most horses are not carriers. Nobody knows exactly, but I have seen estimates of 11 or 14% of purebred Arabs being carriers. Therefore, the chance that a carrier will be combined with another carrier is rather small. To get it clear, I tried it with numbers:
Let us, for easier calculation, suppose that 10% of the Arabs are carriers. 10 out of 100. The chance of combining two carriers would then be 10% x 10 %, giving 1 % (10 out of 100 times 10 out of 100 makes 100 out of 10.000, which is the same as 1 out of 100). We have seen above that 25 % (1 in 4) of the foals of a combination of two carriers is sick. So of all breeding combinations, 1 in 100 (1%) would be the result of a combination of two carriers, of which 1 in 4 (25%) would be sick, giving a total of 0,25% (25 out of 100 times 1 out of 100 makes 25 out of 10.000, which is the same as 0,25 out of 100) of all foals being affected. So out of 400 breeding combinations, 1 foal would be affected. If the percentage of carriers is taken to be 20%, 4% (4 out of 100) would be the result of the combination of two carriers, of which 25% (1 out of 4) would be sick, so that the amount of sick foals out of 100 breedings would be 1 and out of 400 breedings it would be 4. Obvioulsy, based on 11 to 14% carriers, the real number is somewhere between 1 and 4 out of 100.
This, I think, illustrates nicely why it took so long before people started to suspect something might be going on. After all, many more foals die of “normal” illnesses or accidents than because of a non-functioning immune system.

Now if you had a carrier stallion and combined him with let us say 200 mares which, based on 10% carriers, may be either free (180) or a carrier (20), 20 of the foals (10%) would be the result of the combination of two carriers. So out of the 200, 5 foals (1 out of 4 is 5 out of 20) would be sick, 10 (2 out of 4 is 10 out of 20) would be carriers and 185 would be free. So out of 200 foals, 195 would be healthy. These numbers would be 10, 20 and 170 if 20% of the population would be a carrier, meaning 190 out of 200 healthy foals.
I think this illustrates why it may take so many foals to spot a carrier. In times that no lab test was available, that is. It also shows that even if 1/5 (20%) of the population were a carrier, the vast majority of foals would still be free and even more would be healthy.

Now I am not a statistician and I tried this out all by myself, so if someone discovers a flaw in my reasoning, please inform!

Anyway, this is why my personal opinion is: no panic, but do test, since I would not want a foal to die if I can avoid it. Still, many more foals die of "normal" illnesses or just stupid accidents than of SCID. I think it is not good to let yourself be driven by gut feelings about "this horrible disease" (which is factually wrong, since SCID is not a disease by itself). Look at the numbers, study how it inherits and then, based on facts, not on panicky feelings, draw your own conclusion for your own breeding program, to which everybody is free, of course. For your own purposes it may be worthwhile to use a carrier stallion because of his rare and desirable traits. For others, it is out of the question since there are plenty desirable stallions that are free. Everybody has his reasons. And please do not see SCID around every corner. Even foals free of SCID may die of pneumonia, after all.

Just my opinion.
Stephanie
Hi Bianca,

Thanks for all the extra info you have posted. It is nice to learn opinions and explanations from different breeders and owners. I failed to find a rude note in your post so I'm not sure what is meant.

Best regards,
Stephanie
Guest_mckulley1
bterlaan, that was good info. Doesn't change my personal opinion on usage of a carrier, but good info none the less.
Liz Salmon
Yes, far more foals die of other causes than the result of SCID. I have seen more genetic malformations of foals, who had to be destroyed—probably 10 in my time and only 2 SCID foals. It is absolutely prudent to test all one's mares, and breed to stallions who have also been tested. Liz Salmon
Liz Salmon
I have just been asked about the malformations that I have seen, and whether they could have been nutritional. These included no anus, no eyes, an extra leg, no hooves etc. It was doubted that they were nutrional, they could have been related to a drug reaction. In one case the same mare had 2 foals with malformations—which was certainly genetic as they were by different stallions. As well as breeding horses for 18 years, I worked for a vet. for several years after I left college, so I saw quite a lot. Usually when a malformed foal was born, owners chose another stallion. I did know of a stallion that sired more than one malformed foal. Liz Salmon
Dragon
Does anybody know where we in the UK can get the test done and how much will it cost and is there a discount for multiple tests.Thank you all for the exellent info it as helped
us in making our mind up Hilary as done us a favour and we will print the replies and show our friends.The Crabbet connection makes us realise it is already here and ignorance is not bliss.We lost two out of three foals born last year and know the heartache but neither had Scid .We believe breeding is a gamble as is crossing the road
Must run we have a Mare to travel to the Jones family to be covered life must go on.
More informed Dragon
Liz Salmon
I believe there is a lab. in Germany that does testing. I seem to remember Sigi Constanti using it for one of the horses I sold for them, a few years ago. I will try and find out. Liz Salmon
bterlaan
The Van Haeringen lab in the Netherlands does it and gene control in Germany. Sinc eitis the closest for me, I used the latter, they charged around e 25.
GeneControl GmbH 00 49 (0) 89 9 44 19 69-0
Senator-Gerauer-Str. 23
D-85586 Poing
Liz Salmon
I came up with the same lab. in Holland. At least it's not far to send tests. Liz Salmon
allison mehta
I am an American breeder, and I would not breed to a SCID-positive stallion, no matter how beautiful he might be phenotypically. I know all about testing one's mare for SCIDs, but there is still a very good chance of producing a SCID's "carrier"--even if your mare is negative! I know a fellow breeder who bred three times to a known carrier (and the sire of the Scottsdale colt), and they ended up with two positive fillies. Why do we want to take the chance of passing on a genetic defect for which there is a test to prevent us doing so?

The reason a certain stallion in this country was "discovered" to be a SCID carrier is that one of his beautiful colts was sold to a German breeder...and when the colt was tested prior to exporting and found to be a SCID carrier, the sale fell through. Then the colt's owner had his mare tested....she was negative. And so he made a 'phone call to the stallion's owners. The rest is history--except that stallion has bred over 600 mares.

Before AI, Shipped Semen, Frozen Semen, and now multiple ET registrations, the danger was not so great...but famous stallions today breed many mares (Magnum Psyche will probably top a 1000 soon). Thus the danger of spreading a genetic disorder more quickly throughout the Arabian horse world is far greater!

All the stallions we own have been tested for SCID--and had one of them tested postively, they would have been gelded. I remember shaking when I opened the test for one of them, as he had similar bloodlines to the dam of a carrier stallion here in the US. But we were lucky--our guy was negative. We are testing our mare herd this year...but since most of our mares are Straight Egyptian, we are not so worried about their status.

The American Quarterhorse Association has a real war brewing over genetic defects in some of their horses. HYPP has become so prevalent that some Q/H breeders want to form another registry for horses that are not affected with this genetic disorder. Other breeders, who own affected horses say "but this disease can be managed with special nutrition and careful use." Why do they want to breed horses which have to be "managed?" (Actually, I suppose because some of the most beautiful quarterhorses have this disorder and are winning in the halter classes....) sad.gif

Just a personal position, but one I've thought about for several years now...
Guest_mckulley1
On top of HYPP, the QH breed now has ANOTHER genetic disorder found out in the last year and spread by another prominently bred stallion.....man oh man....
bterlaan
QUOTE (allison mehta @ Mar 16 2004, 03:09 AM)
I am an American breeder, and I would not breed to a SCID-positive stallion, no matter how beautiful he might be phenotypically.  I know all about testing one's mare for SCIDs, but there is still a very good chance of producing a SCID's "carrier"--even if your mare is negative!  I know a fellow breeder who bred three times to a known carrier (and the sire of the Scottsdale colt), and they ended up with two positive fillies.  Why do we want to take the chance of passing on a genetic defect for which there is a test to prevent us doing so?

The reason a certain stallion in this country was "discovered" to be a SCID carrier is that one of his beautiful colts was sold to a German breeder...and when the colt was tested prior to exporting and found to be a SCID carrier, the sale fell through.  Then the colt's owner had his mare tested....she was negative.  And so he made a 'phone call to the stallion's owners.  The rest is history--except that stallion has bred over 600 mares.

Before AI, Shipped Semen, Frozen Semen, and now multiple ET registrations, the danger was not so great...but famous stallions today breed many mares (Magnum Psyche will probably top a 1000 soon).  Thus the danger of spreading a genetic disorder more quickly throughout the Arabian horse world is far greater!

All the  stallions we own have been tested for SCID--and had one of them tested postively, they would have been gelded.  I remember shaking when I opened the test for one of them, as he had  similar bloodlines to the dam of a carrier stallion here in the US.  But we were lucky--our guy was negative.  We are testing our mare herd this year...but since most of our mares are Straight Egyptian, we are not so worried about their status.

The American Quarterhorse Association has a real war brewing over genetic defects in some of their horses.  HYPP has become so prevalent that some Q/H breeders want to form another registry for horses that are not affected with this genetic disorder. Other breeders, who own affected horses say "but this disease can be managed with special nutrition and careful use."  Why do they want to breed horses which have to be "managed?"  (Actually, I suppose because some of the most beautiful quarterhorses have this disorder and are winning in the halter classes....) sad.gif

Just a personal position, but one I've thought about for several years now...

Hasn't HYPP become such a problem because the affected horses will mature to breeding age? That is not so with SCID. I find the term "positively tested" not right, sicne it suggests that carriers are sick. They are not. One of the reasons that the occurrence has not bee noverwhelming the breed was that si^k foals do not reach breediong age, so they fall out of the hereditary lines. If you could breed on a full SCID horse (ss),the incidence would be much, much higher. In fact, with HYPP (if I am right) you have three sorts of horses: free, carrier and affected. With SCID you have only two: free and carrier. The affected ones die early. Those are things to consider when deciding a breeding. One should decide if one wants to eradicate the gene, which means not breeding ANY carrier, both stallion AND mare. Not using the stallions only does not make sense in this respect. Or one can choose to avoid sick foals, which means not combining two carriers, or one can choose not to do anything at all, as in fact, involuntarily, has been done for decades. In making the choice, one should be very clear about the numbers and the heredity of SCID and not confuse it with other types of hereditary diisorders or even AIDS (!). Only well-informed breeders can make a proper choice, whatever that may be.
laura
although this has been a very interesting and informative post i think the point has been lost.

no one is forcing people to breed from rhodris colt. like any other breeding choice it is down to the breeder themselves and no one else.
Guest_Delyth
I'm 'Welsh' and haven't a clue what they are on about !

I think the postings have gladly steered away from the colt and to SCID in general. Whilst I do feel breeding is a gamble I do not necessarily that is the right attitude to adopt ! I dealt with a couple in the Uk about two years ago who had experienced just that. New to Arabians, new to breeding there mare was a carrier and unfortunately they picked a carrier ..... the rest takes no explanation. They were left totally devastated. Very sad for all involved.

All breeders have choice and everyone could test there mares but more expense ! Unfortunately no test is available in the UK it now has to be sent to Europe.

Would all countries license a horse with SCID? Just interested.

Thankfully my boys are clear - Ffatal having been tested whilst in Sweden with Jorgen and Britt and Amaretto with Annette and Erwin.

Its a very grey area ............ lets tread carefully.
Jennifer
QUOTE (Guest_Delyth @ Mar 16 2004, 08:20 PM)
Would all countries license a horse with SCID?  Just interested.

I'm not sure but I think I read not so long ago that Belgium does not register SCID-carrier stallions (perhaps someone will correct me it I'm wrong). Here in Germany SCID tests have become compulsory at the stallion licensing, but the result has no effect on the registration and isn't published in the stallion listings, only that the stallion has been listed. What I find worrying ist that many breeders of straight Egyptian horses still insist that SCID does not exist in SE lines, and refuse to test for that reason. Or other breeders who still think along the lines of "SCID? That's what happens if the road is icy, right?", ie. more or less ignorant as to what SCID is or how it is inherited. Apparently quite a few European breeders seem to thing SCID is only prevalent in US lines, and don't bother to test for that reason. ph34r.gif
Sigrid
I am not 100 % sure about the new licensed stallions (haven't got the studbook magazine besides me), but I indeed think that new stallions, tested positive on SCID, are not licensed in Belgium.

The already licensed stallions were tested, and some were found positive. Their names were published for everyone to know, but without any effect on their breeding license. I think it's still up to the breeder to decide.. if he/she wants to take the risk, one takes if for ones own. We shouldn't critize others on their own choice.

In Holland SCID results are als posted for the older already licensed stallions. New stallions can't be licensed when they have a positive SCID test.

(but in both cases, the owner can of course still use them on their own mares)
Allison Mehta
For those of you who wish to know more about SCID, go to the VETGEN website where several articles are posted about this genetic deficiency disease.

And no, "carrier" foals do not die at birth, or shortly thereafter, and can live to ripe old age. "Affected" foals die within three months or so. But carrier foals c-a-r-r-y the disease on to future generations. Yes, it has been around since the days of "desert bred" horses...but stallions didn't breed many hundreds of mares in the early days.

Many breeders seem to feel that SCID is not so much of a danger now that we have a test, as it takes two positive parents to produce an affected foal. Thus, if your mare is not a carrier (in other words, is n-o-t "positive"), the worst danger would be producing another carrier. But do we really want more carriers out there--and what is the value of a carrier foal?

Here's a statistic for you (right from VETGEN). In 1997, a test sampling of purebred Arabian horses showed about a 8.27% SCID's carrier ratio. This year they show about a 16% ratio in the latest test group. Now, some factors have to be weighed in, of course (probably more breeders are having their stallions tested after the announcement of a major breeding stallion being a carrier)--but still, an almost double percentage ratio is, to me, alarming. sad.gif

The VETGEN site is fascinating...it behooves every breeder to visit it.
bterlaan
QUOTE (Guest_Delyth @ Mar 16 2004, 08:20 PM)
"Unfortunately no test is available in the UK it now has to be sent to Europe."

Eeehh Delyth.. I though the UK IS Europe? Or is it US nowadays?? biggrin.gif
Guest_Sue
The Arab Horse Society in the UK has over the years, ALWAY'S insisted that breeders should have their stallions tested for scid, wether this is because they realise that this dreadfull genetic disorder should not be brushed under the carpet, of which it had, and they were trying to the 'right thing'? It is difficult now for them to advise when it is seemingly impossible to have a scid test done now? (In the UK)

As Delyth say's rightly, it is not easy now to get the test done in the UK.
I believe we can send samples of blood or hair to USA? this was the last info I had, I really hope this might change?

I am sure not many will want to use a scid positive stallion, that's if the stallion is ever at public stud? what ever happens, this colt has had one hell of a publicity shot, good or bad, we will remember it forever!
bterlaan
About licensing: if indeed NL and BE do not license carrier stallions and do nothing to check the mares, they are only damaging the luckless stallion owner. What lacks in such a system is a basic decision to eradicate the gene, that is, not to allow ANY carrier, mare AND stallion, breeding. The present situation does nothing to eradicate the gene since carrier mares may still be used and pass on the gene. This is leading nowhere, only restricting the breeder's choice. If you want to restrict people in their choices, it has to be done with a clear purpose and for a cvery good reason, but such a purpose and reason do not seem to be present in that system. If one does not also forbid carrier mares from breeding, it is much more consistent to leave it to the breeder to make his choice. Just my opinion.
HLM
Good morning Gari

SCID IN THE DESERTBREDS???? Please, can you name one? Now what makes me think that through admixture of various breeds such
decease was created? I am not aware of any desertbred horse, an Asil horse, having it. I gladly stand corrected if you can come up with data.

Hansi biggrin.gif
bterlaan
The famous Dr. Enno had a carrier SE mare plus offspring, if I am not mistaken. Although he did not name the horses concerned, he was specific enough regarding the pedigrees for some clever Se-member to find out who the horses were. Since Enno is a vet and it concerned his own horses, his statement has a very high plausibility for me. I cannot understand why there seem to be people who do not believe him, but of course everyone is free in his beliefs. However, there is no reason why Enno would be wrong and there are many reasons why he would not. I do not see SCID as a means to determine purity, nonono....
corbinmk
Hansi,

Liz Salmon posted something earlier in this thread, dated Mar 15 2004, 05:33 AM regarding speculation of the origins of SCID. I hope she doesn't mind that I copy her post here (reformatted for readability):

QUOTE
"There was a really interesting article published in the June 1980 issue of the Australian Arabian Horse News. The article was written by P. M. Wright, CBE, MA and entitled "CID An Assessment of its
Significance to the Arabian Horse and a Speculation about its Origin." He analyzed three consecutive volumes of the "British Arab Stud Book" for foal deaths (since barren, slipped, and dead foals are reported) and studied their pedigrees. The horse he stated he suspected most was Feysul. Here is a quote from the 2nd page of the article: 

"Can we take the possible origin of C.I.D. any further? Zobeyni comes twice in Feysul's pedigree but is in my view unlikely to be the source. If he were, C.I.D. would be spread much more widely in the breed as he is in almost every British pedigree. The only other horse that is suspicious is Bint Nura II which was the dam of Daoud. Daoud's sire was Mesaoud. Although, I have not got as good evidence of Daoud being a carrier as I believe I have of Feysul, I am almost convinced that the mare, Nasra, was a carrier.  Her sire is Daoud. I also find that of the few horses which do not go back to Feysul but which I strongly suspect were or are carriers all go back to Daoud as do many of the descendants of Feysul."

Bint Nura II (aka Bint Bint Nura Es Shakra), Feysul & Daoud are all from the same taproot mare, Nura, a grey mare of Ali Pasha Sherif, date of birth not recorded, died circa 1877, who was the dam of Bint Nura circa 1870, bay by Zobeyni, who was dam of Bint Nura II 1885 chestnut by Aziz, imported to Crabbet 1897, died 1912. Ibn Nura is by Sotamm ex Bint Nura. Ibn Nura is the sire of Feysul. Presumably Bint Nura II & her dam had to inherit the CID gene from somewhere .... My guess is that one of the reasons SCID is uncommon in SE's is that there were less of these particular lines in Egypt as they mostly came to UK -
except through Ghazieh, Ibn Yashmak, Ibn Nura & Bint Rissala. Ghazieh (1897) had at least 10 foals at Sheykh Obeyd, plus 2 which died. Suspect she escaped being a carrier as several of her foals were by Feysul.

As far as I can be see, the ones that stayed in Egypt of this immediate line near its beginning were:  Ghazieh (1897 by Ibn Nura ex Bint Horra) who was at Sheykh Obeyd; and Kawkab (no date, grey) by Ibn Sherara ex Bint Nura II. Ones that came to Crabbet included Bint Nura II, Mahruss, Feysul, Jallabieh, Fulana, Ibn Yashmak & Bint Bint Azz. Ibn Yashmak (by Feysul) went back to Egypt in 1920 along with his son, Mabrouk Blunt. If I was specifically looking for SCID in Egyptian lines, I'd look in these lines first. Another to go to Egypt, a mare which founded a big family in Egypt was Bint Rissala (Razieh) 1920 by Feysul ex Yashmak. Although of course Bint Rissala was almost certainly not a carrier, as she had loads of foals and founded a huge family and surely if she'd been a carrier something would have come to
light by now.

And of course those Crabbet horses went everywhere from very early on (late 1800s, early 1900s) - Russia, S Africa, Australia, Spain, USA, Argentina, Poland, to name but a few. It gets very confusing since so many tens of  thousands of horses trace to these 3 particular horses on one line or another, but many are of course also SCID clear. I know the 25%/25% etc etc generalisation for inheritance of SCID is often quoted, but I know for sure of a stallion here in UK (imported from USA) that had many many foals before his first confirmed SCID foals. You can in real life, as opposed to on paper, get 4, 8, 10, 20, 100 or whatever clear foals in a row, it's the luck of the genetic draw! It won't necessarily be two carriers, a clear and an affected one after the other as the statistics make it look."


This is probably stronger , if not absolute, evidence than Dr. Enno's data regarding suspicion of SCID genes among ASIL blood. Regardless, I share my opinions with the majority of the posters in this thread. Given an exceptional stallion that's a SCID carrier, I would test my mares before breeding to him, especially a non-SE mare! Test is cheaper than treating an affected foal.

Also, I doubt that the Arab Horse Society of United Kingdom requires SCID testing for registration. It's probably just a recommendation by someone that might be active in AHS but not as an official direction coming from AHS.
Mike
Hi Spiker,

SCID testing is recommended by the AHS but isn't a requirement of either licensed stallions or registered broodmares.

Mike
brentwoodarab
As one who helped raise this very special colt from birth, I am pleased and greatful to have had a hand in his life!! This has been a rare and wonderful individual to raise, and I heartily congratulate the new owners!!

I want to make sure his new owners know that when he lifts his chin high in the air, he is just waiting for you to realize he wants a good scratching!!!Hes a doll!! Good luck with him!! To we, who know him, HE IS PRECIOUS!!
Friend of Master Design.........
I have had the joy of halping to raise the colt this topic was started about. He is a joy. Since some of you have acess to the Jones' would you please give them my congratulations on this wonderful colt. There were many tears shed today as we said goodbye to him. He was a favorite. Also, he has a wonderful "trick". If you stand in front of his stall he will come over to the bars and lift his chin as high as he possibly can so that you have easy acess to that hard to reach throatlatch area for a good scratching. He learned this when he was about 4-6 weeks old and has every person at the farm very well trained. He will be severly missed and I hope they know what a gem they have in him.

Regards
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