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Allison Mehta
Can anyone provide some modern (e.g., living) phenotype examples of the five main strains of Arabian horses (Saglawi, Dahmen, Kuheilan, etc.)?

For instance, I know that Ansata Ibn Halima was a fine example of the Dahmen "look," but he is deceased. Any living examples come to mind?
SConn
I am very interested in this topic too! I know there are so many knowledgeable people on this forum, can somebody help out with this??
Patricia Hampton
Personally, I am concentrating on breeding the Obeyyan strain. I have two mares who are my foundations, one just purchased and not yet home. Are they typical of the modern Obeyyan? Can't say, there aren't very many of them. The traits that these mares have in common are size, both are in excess of fifteen hands, good legs and extremely athletic builds - the kind of horse you could ride for days under adverse conditions. They have very attractive heads but the not the little wedgy heads that are so popular in the show ring. Small heads look silly on big horses, so I would have to say their heads fit their bodies.

As time permits, I plan to build a website dedicated to the Obeyyan horse, showing old and modern photos when I can find them and listing as many living Obeyyan horses and their pedigrees as I can track down. This incredible strain probably has no more than 200 - 300 living horses and I plan to do all I can to raise awareness about it and try to keep it from extinction.
HLM
Good morning everybody

I dont know if one can go by the strain only. I rather can see if it is the "Antar,Sameh,Mashhour,Nazeer" type, seeing the characterristics in their offspring, although they differ in looks.
Of course the femaile tail line of theirs which I always take a careful look tells me a great deal. Some stallions are "Stempelhengste" others are not. While in each strain you will find that some dont quite look like it, by this I mean- we have a Kuhaylan'Ajuz rodan you would swear is a Saklawi Jidran, and so on.

I look at the mare, and chose a stallion to improve, if this is what I want. So I look at the stallion too and than see what the match brought about in their offspring. I never bred because of a strain, but always of what the horse is and needs. therefore, one must take a careful look at the mare and stallion IN THE FLESH, examine it close up, and then decide.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Ralph
Hi Allison,

There have been so many strain discussions lately. Wonder what is going on? And in each of these discussions, people have stated things in favor of and against strains, which really make you stop and think, and wonder why you believe the things that you do believe. One of the most striking examples of strains is found in Judith Forbis' Authentic Arabian Bloodstock and the pictures of the three Kuhaylan Jellabi (by tail female line)stallions: the all Babson Egyptian Fadl Dan, the Bentwood bred Prince Fa Moniet, and the Attalah bred Mohummed Saddan. Of the three, Fadl Dan embodies the characteristics that one expects from a KJ horse. I saw Fadl Dan in person and he was very strong for the Babson type, which I like, by the way. I also saw and interacted with Prince Fa Moniet, who also has Babson blood on the maternal side of his pedigree but he was a much different horse (very refined, very stretchy, very Saqlawi looking) and I really liked him quite a bit. I never saw Mohummed Saddan but I think he is in West Virginia now and from the pictures that I have seen, a nice looking horse too and more Dahman in his looks.

I had a friend who was breeding exclusively in the KJ strain and her observations, the further she bred within the KJ strain, generation after generation, is that the horses really got more refined looking, than the horses a generation behind.

Judith Forbis' study to me proved that our horses are combinations of so many different strains that it is really difficult, from paper to say what a horse is supposed to look like, unless you really now the parents and the grandparents phenotype.

My personal feeling? That strains is a historical link to our horse's past and part of the rich tapestry that makes our horses unique. Although, I will also go out on the limb and say that the Bedouins were pretty astute in recogngnizing the significant part that a mare plays in the influence of her foal.

Don't know if I really answered your question or gave you more to think about!

Ralph
allisonmehta
Yes, Hansi. But really what interests me is that you can see, even today--years and years away from desert-bred--different "styles" or "looks" of Arabian horses. As long as a horse has type (which to me is a beautiful head, short back, and good tail carriage--the things which make the Arabian different from other breeds), then there can still be varieties among quite beautiful Arabian horses.

Part of this, I truly believe, is due--even today--to strains (particularly with SE horses). Part is also due to concentrated breeding programs (Russian, Polish, even here in the US, Ansata, Varian, Al Marah, etc.) And, were not the original strains just that: a breeding program of one Bedouin tribal group developing a look which, ancestor after ancestor, eventually became a "strain"?

There are still today some "pure in the strain" breeders, but other phenotypes in Arabian horses from non-strain breeders, can be, say, Dahmen or Abeyyan in look. For instance, in our barn we stand three stallions: HH Fortune Hunter (definitely Saghlawi in phenotype), Botswana (Dahmen by strain, but somewhat Abeyyan in phenotype--which is due to many of his ancestors on the sire line being Abeyyan. Of course, I think Dahmen and Abeyyan types look quite similar anyway). The third stallion, S Khoncherto, is not SE--and I have no idea as to his actual strain. But once I asked someone who knows a lot about strains, and they said "Oh, my dear, he looks positively Kuheilan in type." And I went back and studied my books and came back to the farm and looked at Khoncherto--and this expert was absolutely right (although I still don't know what strain Khoncherto is).

This is what I am seeking to understand better--do the strains, ancient as they may be (coupled with concentrated breeding programs) still influence the different looks of certain horses today? As an example, a horse like Magnum Psyche is quite different in look than a horse like FS Bengali, and yet both are very popular breeding stallions. Can we attribute any of this to strains, even in our modern world hundreds of years away from "desert-bred" horses?

Allison of Talaria
HLM
You said it right, Ralph

I, for one, am not an enthusiast for the Dahman Shahwans, simply because 9 out of ten I have seen have so badly deteriated in their conformation, functioability. Indeed, they are georgeous to look at, but that simply is not enough for me and many other horsemen/woman. A stallion simply should not look feminine,
and must show strong male characteristics. Most of all, he has to be a powerful mover, and correct mover. I have seen some Dahman Shahwans of the Babson lines, and they were different and I liked them.

Prince Fa Moniet goes into the Marhroussa line, one of the most beautiful mares and extremely similar to the Gleanloch/Serenity imports of the 60/70's. this line appears to come through again and again, although over 80 years removed from present production.
Just like Basilisk, which I see coming through in some today. We have a son of his "AK Shah Munifeh" who not only is a very correct and functional SE, but also an outstanding producer. He is a dream under saddle.

At the end one must aquire and breed off or from what one personally likes. Just because I dont like this or that, does not mean others have to. that's silly. It would be awful if we all like the same.

Have a nice day
Hansi
allisonmehta
Dear Ralph,

Thank you for such an erudite and concise answer...and you are heading in the direction I wish to study. (Ah, that I were younger, and didn't have a business to run, and could sit in a sunny library, surrounded by books and tapes and a good PC, and research a paper which might help "demystify" and contemporize Arabian horse strains.)

What I still seek is to know the names of some contemporary horses that we feel are good examples of a particular strain. I have all the line drawings, and Judith Forbis's most recent book is certainly very helpful...but in talking about this, it would be helpful to know what living horses can be pointed out as representative of a certain strain phenotype "look." I do agree that the strains are very combined, and the lines blurred. But one looks at the line drawings done by experts on strains and you wish you could actually look at a living example...it does help to see type in the flesh, I think.

Again, I daily celebrate the different types of Arabian horses--and am constantly amazed at the panoply of athletic ability and physical beauty this breed offers us. It's like irises...so many types and colors and uses! I don't necessarily think one strain (or phenotype) is more beautiful than another...even if my personal taste might be for the Dahmen and Saglawi type horses. Everyone has different tastes--some more masculine, some more feminine--how wonderful that the Arabian horse can please breeders from rough working cow horses to horses that look like fine porcelain sculptures.

Again, thank you for your response...it opens more doorways to avenues of study.,.

Allison of Talaria
Chiron
HI Allison
Your S Khoncherto is indeed a Kohaylan Nowak. HIs tail female being *Malouma a desert bred imported from Egypt where she had been a moderately sucessful race horse. *Malouma ended up at Kelloggs & gave some very good & pretty atheletes.
I believe she shows up in some of the old Gainey horses, old Skorage from Brusally (went on to import many a Polish Champ & I believe the first Russian horses (although I dont think they ever got papers on the first ones) ) The Donahues, Ibn Hanrah (was her blood) & Cass Ole. Wrigleys on Catalina Island had her thru Roayas. Joe Dawkins (Wrigleys trainer) used to rope BUFFALO off their Arabs!! (doubt we could get one of the fancy show horses even close enough to rope a Buffalo much less hold em down).
I had an Egyptian related mare that tail femaled to *Malouma & altho Dahman & Seglawi strains were very heavyly represented, my mare was most definitely Kuhaylat in type
All this family seemed to be very excellent working animals that had no problems staying sound.
Hope this helps
Chiron
allisonmehta
Dear Chiron,

Oh thank you...because, beyond giving me all this wonderful information on a lovely young stallion, you have validated the exact point I've been pondering....that the "strain phenotypes" really are still valid. We had no idea of the wonderful tail female information you have so generously shared on Khoncherto...but Mike Albertini, our general manager at Talaria, knew his strains well enough to declare that Khoncherto was probably Kuhaylan just by looking at the horse. I find this absolutely fascinating with such mixed bloodlines...and you have validated that Mike was right.

But pedigree-wise, as I'm sure you've seen, Khoncherto is a bit of a mongrel of American breeding: by JK Amadeus a Bey Shah son out of a Khemosabi daughter (who was out of a Bask daughter). So he carries Bey Shah, Khemo, Bask, and old Crabbet bloodlines in his pedigree. I think he is a handsome stallion: very masculine with a pretty face and big big liquid dark eyes--and a gorgeous body. But very different from say, another beautiful SE stallion we stand, Botswana, or the regal gentleman, HH Fortune Hunter. They are three different strains: Kuhaylan, Dahman, and Saghlawi. All are beautiful horses in their own right...but quite different phenotypically (although all have good Arabian type).

It's fascinating, isn't it? Thank you again for the time it took to research Khoncherto's strain. I am very grateful for your interest and your kind assistance.

Are you an American or European breeder?

Allison of Talaria
Chiron
Say Allison just for fun would you like a break down of the strains of your Khoncherto?
See if he really is "heavy" to Kuhaylan or old *Malouma was one of those mares who really passes on her type for generation. Might take me a day or two as my computer has decided the printer has left home! Lestwise it cant seem to find it. Then if I can make it
work photos of 2 brothers, 1 year apart, pure in the strain Dahman Shawan thru BInt Bint
Sabbah. The ONLY trait they have in common is color!! Even temperments are completely different. Have a mare pure in strain Dahmah from BInt El Bahrain, she doesnt even share color trait!! Then wait til you see what a Kuhaylan Rodaniyah mare (who looks Saglawi or even more like the Manaki) does with 4 different stallions!!! You will give up on strains altogether. Which in MHO would be a mistake but...strains are only one tiny tool we can try to use to create our perfect foal. Which of course might not be your idea of perfect. Thats what makes it so much fun!
Chiron
allisonmehta
Dear Chiron,

One other point...and I understand that the strain/phenotype link can be tenuous so many generations past desert-bred. But few American breeders (other than SE breeders) pay much attention to strains at all--many could not even tell you the five most prominent strain names.

However, many many very fine American breeders talk regularly about the importance of "the tail female line" in determining certain characteristics. But are they not really referring to the strain line without perhaps even knowing it? It's a little humorous as many US breeders believe the SE breeders to be a little too involved in the history and romance of the Arabian horse...and all the somewhat arcane body of knowledge SE breeders like to discuss.

But even an American breeder who breeds, say, working cow Arabians, will talk about that tail female line!

Best to you--thanks again for all your great information!
Allison of Talaria
Guest
QUOTE
And, were not the original strains just that: a breeding program of one Bedouin tribal group developing a look which, ancestor after ancestor, eventually became a "strain"?


QUOTE
I look at the mare, and chose a stallion to improve, if this is what I want. So I look at the stallion too and than see what the match brought about in their offspring. I never bred because of a strain, but always of what the horse is and needs.


You are both right. Breeders like the "look" (eye appeal AND functionality) or type of a horse and breed to achieve more of that look. It makes sense that the look will occur in a certain strain, so the breeding program includes mostly individuals within that strain. If a breeder strain-breeds and gets consistent results, both objectives are achieved. I color coded my pedigrees so that I could see at a glance the strength of a strain in my horses. My mare that looks the most Kuhaylan (based on the Raswan definition) does have a lot of blue in her pedigree (I used blue for Kuhaylan obviously). My Saqlawi mare's pedigree is mostly red (red for Saqlawi) and she looks it.

On top of all that, or in addition to, I like the athletic look of Arabs bred to race so my Kuhaylan foundation mare has a slightly different look than her very Kuhaylan looking daughter, but her colts (by the same stallion) are built more like her. So I think you also have to look (as Hansi would say) at the individual results. It is simply my experience (limited as it is) that by breeding within the strain, I am achieving the look I like that caused me to pick this strain in the first place.

JMHO smile.gif
Samantha
Abbasiyah
smile.gif Hi Allison,

We should merge this topic (Modern Phenotypes for Desert-bred Strains) with the Inherent Capabilities of Strains as they both tie in together.

Debra Nowak asked me to post some photos of her pure- in -the- strain Kuhaylan filly Abraxas Bint Abu.

According to Debra, Abraxas Bint Abu, a daughter of Abu Hilal, is the most concentrated pure-in-the-strain Kuhaylan filly in the world today. She is the exquisite culmination of a 20-year vision to improve the genetic base of straight Egyptian Arabians through perfecting pure strain breeding. This was historian Carl Raswan's quest, a challenge Abraxas Arabians accepted and, perhaps, have accomplished.

First the pedigree:
Abbasiyah
ABRAXAS BINT ABU (Abraxas Abu Hilal x Abraxas Halamaa) 2003 Grey pure-in-thestrain Kuhaylan filly bred and owned by Abraxas Arabians in Winchester, California
Abbasiyah
smile.gif And the sire of Abraxas Bint Abu

Abraxas Abu Hilal (photos by Little)
Abbasiyah
smile.gif Here is another pure-in-the-strain Kuhaylan (Modern day representative) of this family. Sorry the photos are a bit blurry as I grabbed them from my video.

This is Bint Serag (*Serag x Hialeah)

*Serag is by Anter who is of the Radia family and his dam is Bint Om El Saad of the Rodania family (KR)

Hialeah is by El Hilal of the Farida family and her dam is *Hekmat of the Riyala family (KR)

This mare is a combination of crossing the tail female line of Rodania with the tail female line of Riyala. In fact, Bint Serag is the only pure-in-the-strain, Kuhaylah Sheykh Obeyd, Post 58 mare in the world. If all goes well she will be bred to the very exciting *HS Hero (Simeon Sadik x Helwa Lancer) who is also a Kuhaylan through the Nazeer daughter Kawmia (Riyala family)
Abbasiyah
Bint Serag (*Serag (Anter x Bint Om El Saad x Hialeah (El Hilal x *Hekmat)
Allison Mehta
Dear Debi Nowak,

What a gorgeous filly! You must be thrilled with her....are you bringing her to The Egyptian Event this year? I hope so then I can see her--and meet you. We have a mutual great friend in Bridgette Orwig, who speaks so highly of you (often, often) with a great deal of respect for your program and your sincere love of the Arabian horse!

Again--an absolutely lovely filly...and pure in the strain besides!

Allison of Talaria
diane
Alison, I do recommend reading the pinned thread – Inherent Capabilities Of Family Strains for explanations on strains. It’s a long thread and somewhat detailed.

I, personally, am not party to strains holding factors which can directly influence attributes. However, as a slight twist, strains as names can, just like modern day stud names, link attributes to family members. It’s their genetic strengths which you see not their strain names or any other modern name(s). These are names only (modern or ancient) which link attributes within families amongst individuals. Most times unpredictable unless there is a phenotypical likeness perhaps enforcing the genetics of an individual to be similar, if not the same. How many times do you see full sisters/brothers who are not the same? And yet, they are the same strain name!

In understanding strain names are not responsible for attributes, it helps if it is understood that the key or tail females which are referred to, are not the originators of these female lines! They too had ancestors – how much influence of one their ancestors did it take for “our” tail female to show a type? Take the modern pedigree and flip it and that’ll probably indicate how many!

Patricia – have been reading WR Brown’s book re descriptions of Arabians. One fascinating part is the declaration that there are many different styles to the Arabian – particularly its head! Wouldn’t it be good to have these very important books readily available again for all to help straighten out the agenda which is becoming (or has become) the myopic Breed Standard?

Ralph wonders what is going on? Personally, I feel too much has been, and is still being, read into the naming convention conceptualised by the Bedouin. It’s a great marketing tool, though smile.gif And I for one will continue to advocate the acceptance of strains BUT in the correct context wink.gif because I do agree with you Ralph – strain names are an intrinsic link to the past, as you suggest, “…part of the rich tapestry that makes our horses unique.” This part is what the Arabian Horse is renown for – one of the oldest, if not, THE oldest pedigreed horse breed in the world.

Hansi – why single out the “Dahman Shahwans” in regards to (in your words) “deterioration”?

Allison – why do we need to “contemporize Arabian horse strains”? By using strain names we are accepting the language of the Bedouin ancestors. We need to understand, not modernise. If by contemporize you mean understand – fine. Please don’t be another Raswan (for example) who essentially nominated what attributes could be reflected by a strain name. Attributes are a reflection of the individual’s genetics, and therefore is not essentially the reflection of a name – this is why there is so much variation within a named strain!! Please – if you get the time in your busy life style, read the old books, pre-Breed Standard, and be open-minded to the horse descriptions presented with the added notations of strain names not strain types!
Busy life-styles makes for quick uptakes on issues which really do need to be reviewed correctly and in context.

My thoughts huh.gif
allisonmehta
Dear Diane,

But here is what I am about...I believe that we who love and breed Arabians need to understand that just because a horse looks different than our personal "ideal Arabian" doesn't mean that it doesn't conform to the breed standard. I constantly try to understand more about where the different "looks" came from and how they interpret into modern phenotypes.

For instance, of the three stallions we stand at our farm, all three conform to Arabian horse type: beautiful head, short back (two out of the three), and high tail carriage. They also all have good legs, laid back shoulders, long hips, level croups, and are very socialized with humans. However, they are not similar in phenotype...and I am interested in why this is so and yet why I find them all beautiful. I think this is terribly important for American breeders to comprehend right now...particularly since the American showring so influences breeding here (to the detriment of Arabian horse type in many instances). But judges are human, and have tastes, and are influenced by trends....and, unfortunately sometimes, politics.

Beyond correctness, all three of our stallions are beautiful examples of the Arabianhorse...if quite different phenotypically. This is what interests me. When I was a little girl my father used to take us to what was, in those days, a very popular chain restaurant i called Howard Johnson's. They were known for the quality of their ice cream--24 different flavours as I remember. But each flavour was, first and foremost, ice cream...and, for its time, good ice cream. Do we not, within the Arabian horse breed, have flavours? Is someone who thinks Simeon Sadik, for example is the most beautiful Arabian horse, also going to like *Emanor?

So I come back to breeding programs and then to National programs (Crabbet/English, Polish, Russian, Egyptian) and then to strains. Trying to find an explanation to offer to explain the different looks without derogating any of them if they encompass Arabian horse type and correctness. For instance, Kuhaylan is more masculine, Abeyyan and Dahmen more elegant and feminine, Saghlawi somewhere inbetween. But they are all Arabians...and I celebrate the diversity within the breed. smile.gif

And, I will read the whole pinned thread you recommend...I should have before starting this one.

Allison of Talaria



How do you account for the difference in phenotypes within the breed? I know all about the " breed standard" but within the parameters of the standard we can have very different looks...and, of course, other than in the line drawings, there is no perfect Arabian horse.
HLM
Good morning Diane

Dahman Shahwans of the past- EAO/Babson etc were not included in my statement. these still were in my opinion functional and under saddle. I meant the breeding I have seen during the past 20 years, often too much inbreeding,concentrating only on head and neck (although even those necks are not always great)and having lost movement/loss of reach/stride. But also the conformation speaks for itself. Mutton whithers, front legs too close to the chest, steap/short shoulders, not enough rearend, and poor legs, especially the front legs. Hoofs to small or club feet, going too wide behind, no girth, etc.etc. Also some stallions getting too feminin.

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule and I have not seen them all either. And of course, faults mentioned above, are in other strains as well, but not as much or as severe of what I have seen.

Mind you, if these horses would be tested in stress performances, we would not even have to talk about it anymore, The results would
be the eye opener. If they were to compete "open" one would even see more.

Have a nice day
Hansi
reluctant2
I disagree that any strain is less than any other or degenerated more or less. The observation rendered above is at best anectodal and to ascribe deficiencies to Dahmans or Saklawis et al based strictly on personal opinion without pictoral or statistical proof is at best questionable.

I am enclosing a photo of a 28month colt by a Dahman out of a Dahman and I'd like to see where he is deficient as stated above. He is definitely not feminine, deep girth. Marked withers, short back -taller than he is long, a neck fitting his back, great heart girth, well muscled forearm, good ratio to canon and in general a horse that moves so freely as to appear effortless. He has another three years of growing so, although not what New Egyptian breeders admire, he is for me a Good Horse and a good Arab as well as a serviceable SE. The type of horse I like, be it Dahman or Hadban or Saklawi or Koheilan.

My opinion is that there is no strain less worthy than any other, but then it is also just an opinion
Ralph
It has been interesting reading all the opinions that have been posted here. But there is one person that I would like to hear more from:

Debra Nowak

Why?

Read the following quote:

QUOTE
a 20-year vision to improve the genetic base of straight Egyptian Arabians through perfecting pure strain breeding. This was historian Carl Raswan's quest, a challenge Abraxas Arabians accepted and, perhaps, have accomplished.


This is a very powerful statement, underscored by the equally powerful photos I have seen of the Abraxas horses. 20 years is a very long time and how many generations of pure-in-the-strain breeding have that been? 4, 5, 6? What attracted you to the strain philosophy? Or is this a vision that developed over time and was bolstered by Raswan's writings? What part of the philosophy that Carl Raswan espoused really touched your heart and encouraged you to follow this path? What did you see, as you bred further and further within a strain, that convinced/motivated/inspired you to stay the course with your vision? Is it the predictability in the resulting generation...or somethng more? Do you see an increasing amount of refinement, the farther you breed within the strain? What qualities do you feel that have been lost in Arabian Horse breeding and are now recovered through pure-in-the-strain breeding?

Don't you want to know more about her perspective and why she feels the way she does? I do. Will you share with us Debra? smile.gif

In the meantime, here is the terrific article written by Oliver Wibihal and Gregor Wimmer with Debra Nowak titled: questions and answers with Debra Nowak to keep you busy until she addresses in this thread her perspective in strain breeding. Thank you in advance Debra. smile.gif
diane
[quote=Ralph,Mar 29 2004, 11:54 PM] Debra Nowak
Why?
Read the following quote:
a 20-year vision to improve the genetic base of straight Egyptian Arabians through perfecting pure strain breeding. This was historian Carl Raswan's quest, a challenge Abraxas Arabians accepted and, perhaps, have accomplished.[QUOTE]

Don't you want to know more about her perspective and why she feels the way she does? I do. [/quote]
Ralph - I'd love to hear more about everyone's opinion on this topic smile.gif I do see how one could 'improve' by strain breeding (remembering strains are names). It would take an astute breeder to realise the basics of genetics and apply the theory to the respective families' strengths and weaknesses along with keeping a singular goal in mind. And yes, it it would also take time.

Allison asked [quote]How do you account for the difference in phenotypes within the breed? I know all about the " breed standard" but within the parameters of the standard we can have very different looks...and, of course, other than in the line drawings, there is no perfect Arabian horse. [/quote]

hummmm, let me rattle your foundations a tad ~ if you know all about the Breed Standard, then you will have realised its a modern invention by westerner(s)? The Breed was well established, by the nomadic Bedouin, before the Breed Standard was conceptualised. What have we, as westerners, done by inventing the Breed Standard? Was it invented for the right reasons? Has it been applied correctly?

How do I account for the difference in phenotypes : essentially there are two lines of thought that I have...

(1) Bedouin tribes had their preferences. They bred from a base pool of genetics (an unknown value) and through presonal or tribal preferences diversified the breed over eons - slowly but surely

(2) The foundations of the breed were varied from the start and the admixture of those the Bedouin selected as asil has give the extremes and the in-betweens

both of which can equate, essentially, to the phenotypical differences we see.

Quite right, there is no perfect horse and therefore no perfect Arabian Horse. They are a result of Nature. What the Arabian Horse is, is perfection as a Breed in its ability to do almost everything. Along with influencing every warmblooded breed for the better at a time when all of the warmblood gene pools were open to the influence of the Arabian directly and now indirectly after the closure of some of these pools? Warmbloods were bred to do a specific task, they were bred to be superior in that task to the Arabian. I'm not so sure this has been achieved though wink.gif But what has happened in the warmbloods, is something the Arabian Horse as a Breed can not do - outcross. Warmbloods can outcross to another Breed: either hot or coldblooded or staying within the warmblood itself. The only "outcross" the Arabian Horse Breed now has are the bloodlines which are being overlooked due to the limitations imposed by the modern interpretation of the Breed Standard. Overlooked bloodlines which are still asil and still available but for how long?

Another issue to consider when thinking about different phenotypes: why compare them to each other (ie showring criteria)? The Breed is varietal, how should one, as a judge, compare variety fairly with due respect to the Bedouin bred desert horse? Does the current showring system allow for this? Who will be the first judge to sash, as equals, the two extremes we see in the Breed? or better still, sash all types as equals as long as they are structurally sound within their physical limitations. And by this, I do not mean judging to perfection, I refer to judging according to Nature in collusion with Bedouin preferences. First things first though, we need to understand what is meant by physical limitations!

my thoughts huh.gif
HLM
Good morning Diane and all

Diane, you said it right. I agree with your opinions.
the standard should never be- all have to look like Khofo, or
Sakr, or Tammen, or Zaghloul but all must have the silhuette of an Arabian horse. these horses mentioned are different in phenotype to each other but all resemble the Arabian horse unmistakenly.

Now lets take Antar, Sameh, Mashhour,Hamdan, Nazeer, Balance, Fa-Serr, put them into a showring, and what would you see. Each one is totally different in type to each other, yet all are unmistakenly Arabians.And each one produced accordingly by enlarge.

This would bring us to judging- if all horses mentioned were in a halter class together, what would happen? If I were to judge, I start from THE BOTTOM UP look for the qualities the Arabian horse is to bring along, the functioability, THE OVERALL MOVEMENT, reach/strides-balance, and of course overal conformation making movement,staying power,etc possible. Since we decided that all represent the Arabian type, it would now be up to the judge's preference, if all were equal in the conformation points.

this is why I personally object to a point system, which gives multiple points for type, in many cases making the worsed entry a champion. The latter does indeed influence the breeding and could be highly detrimental for the future of the SE Arabian horse.

It is so sad to hear people say "O what a beautiful Arabian horse" too bad it cant move without roller skates". Or "What has this beautiful Arabian done" "can one ride it with those horrible legs/feet etc"? Or "Is there actually a saddle made which would fit this Arabian horse with no frontend/whithers/etc?

When I hear this I point out, that there are many,many SE's which do not have such problem, are also quite beautiful and most certainly formidable competitors in numerous equine devisions.

I wish there would be a place, where people learn proper riding, evaluating what they are riding, riding all the different types and then come to a conclusion.Meaning, ride about 5 Arabians of different type each day and then comment.

Paelmchen is already on the right track, and so are many of the endurance riders, dressage and 3-day event riders, and of course the flat racers.

One really needs to do some tall thinking about all this, in my opinion.

Have a nice day biggrin.gif
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Ralph
Diane:

Debra Nowak is one of the few strain breeders left in the United States of America. Her insight, within a thread that addresses specifically strain breeding is not only crucial but to me personally, valuable, in order to make the determination as to whether this is all "poppycock". It is not that I don't value any one else's opinion (I do and I listen), it is just that on this subject matter of strains, I don't see any other participant with the experience necessary to address the subject matter.

Hansi:

I don't even know what to say. blink.gif Your comments are so "out there in left field" and have no bearing, at all on the subject matter being discussed. It is like receiving a telephone call, asking for a party that is not located at that address. SORRY, WRONG NUMBER! blink.gif Perhaps your comments belong in another thread, discussing the athletic attributes of the Arabian Horse and its subsequent training.

Ralph
HLM
Ralph

I had no idea. I thought in other posts on this subject the matter came up. However, forgive me, that I always and ever press the urgency of proper evaluation- the arabian and its qualities- and although I do pay attention to strains, I am not that much influenced by them when it comes to proper mating and with it achieving improvements, if such strain does not give me what I need.

I am quite familiar with strains, and recognize the attributes each brings, if such are recognizeable. However, I have seen a lot of problems with too close inbreeding in order to achieve only one part.This can backfire.

If you were to study the Turkish, Iraqi, Irani studbooks, you will see suddenly numerous different strains, I personally have never heard of. Indeed, it refers to the breeder of the horse- his name.
When I saw a number of these horses in Istanbul, I could see differences in type etc and when the same breeder was involved, I could also see what they accomplished, a certain uniformity.

there is a video Mary showed at the WAHO meeting, covering the Irani horses, and I make the same opinions.

the same goes for the very long video the Dirks did in Syria, when our delegation spent some time there, and Asil Arabians were displayed- many different types- The same goes for the Bahrainis. Also the book written by Jens SAnnek and Bernd Loewenherz " Wuestenblut" -"Desert Legacy" is highly informative and educational. I know both authors and the photos and data in this publication are excellent.

I we were to concentrate only on a particular phenotype, and in case such has many conformation and/or breeding problems, we most certainly would shut the door on the continuation of breeding a mentally and physically sound Asil Arabian horse.

We need to listen to outsiders, experts in equine, as to their findings and opinions. Those are the people who either drive folks away from the Se Arabian or encourage them to own one. What would you say to them, if they ask you about your findings in strains, when riding such? I like to hear.

I assure you, many people dont know what the strain of their Se is, nor care. They either want a pretty horse to look at or a horse they can enjoy under saddle. Once they start riding numerous diferent ones, the question of a strain becomes more relevant.
Everything is a matter of education or brainweashing. In competition internationally one can not afford to brainwash, that would be deadly, one performs to win. The results become educational competitors truly listen to. Did we all not listen to what the ancestors of all the SEs have accomplished under saddle and re-production?
Did they become prominent only because of a strain? I doubt it.They carry most all strains known to us today. Do those pedigree indicate to you that strain breeding was mostly done? It does not to me. Really, in my opinion there is no such a thing as "Pure in the Strain" unles one says- "for xnumbers of generation pure in the strain? What do you think?

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
diane
QUOTE (Ralph @ Mar 30 2004, 04:12 PM)
Diane:

Debra Nowak is one of the few strain breeders left in the United States of America. Her insight, within a thread that addresses specifically strain breeding is not only crucial but to me personally,  valuable, in order to make the determination as to whether this is all "poppycock". It is not that I don't value any one else's opinion (I do and I listen), it is just that on this subject matter of strains, I don't see any other participant with the experience necessary to address the subject matter.

Hansi:

I don't even know what to say.  blink.gif  Your comments are so "out there in left field"  and have no bearing, at all on the subject matter being discussed. It is like receiving a telephone call, asking for a party that is not located at that address. SORRY, WRONG NUMBER!  blink.gif Perhaps your comments belong in another thread, discussing the athletic attributes of the Arabian Horse and its subsequent training.

Ralph

Hiya Ralph, let me suggest I understand your enthusiasm. Yes, Debra Nowak has many years experience. I can suggest per your perhaps taunting question: “I don't see any other participant with the experience necessary to address the subject matter.” my own program ~ I have bred within a named strain in my Egyptian related program (KAofD) and I'm also breeding within a named strain in my Straight Egyptian program (DS). I’m also intensely line breeding within the mating which was done this season, as I did 6 years ago to achieve my filly whom I’ve now bred (ie she’s now a maiden mare). And I'm happy to state - "in strain" breeding is not my focus! I'll be quite at ease to 'cross out' of the Dahman Shahwan strain name - if, and only if I find similar conformational (genetic and structural) including temperament attributes in another named strain. Such will be and is my program(s) and, I believe, somewhat reflective of the Bedouin sentiments when breeding decisions were made. Another breeder aware of named strains but not necessarily basing her program on a named strain is my Australian colleague, Sharyn Ruskey-Fleming of Talika Arabian Stud when it comes to breeding straight Egyptian Arabian Horses here in Australia! I put her website up as a promotional tool and hopefully in an educational layout including named strains within the pedigrees (many photos are included to make judgement calls and comparisons), freely available and if you would care to appraise the pedigrees and photos you'll notice many things about and within this program. They are an aid for anyone who wants to learn from someone else's years of experience. To clarify, Sharyn has owned and bred straight Egyptians for greater than 20yrs, generating her program around the foals she has retained from her 2 sE foundation mares. The same could be said of Ansata’s 40year plus experience - their program, their pedigrees and the books and videos they have available for sale. Simarily, I would suggest, with Katherinnehof, to name a couple of the higher profiled studs! I'd also like to mention, Imperial - their website was the first I visited with strains colour coded within their pedigrees!

Debra is caring by sharing, as others have done in their many various ways. When you suggest "few strain breeders" - may I pose the question: how many breeders are out there who are perhaps unwittingly strain breeders or do not wish to advocate they are strain breeding? As Debra has highlighted via her system of structural and genetic cards, the whole should be considered when making an informed breeding decision, not just a single issue. All issues being equal, then an informed decision can be made on a singular preference?

Hansi's points, in this post, I feel are valid. Many people have a preferred type and can be unforgiving of contrary type(s) ie as the Bedouin did! The freedom that the Bedouin had was they didn’t have the western Breed Standard to compare against! And this is the antagonistic situation we have in the Breed today ~ to be unforgiving and even less understanding. When compared to perfection the true Arabian diversity will be lost. We really don’t want to loose this diversity, so the Arabian Horse’s diversity (phenotype differences) should be understood. And the first place to look is in the individual physical limitations. To do this, principles of conformational analysis needs to be understood by all enthusiasts – not just the breeders.

It does come about that physical limitations of an Arabian Horse should be understood, this will assist one to understand the different phenotypes. Understand and yet not to be gauged against perfection. Then phenotypical differences will not be so antagonistic. At the same time, an understanding of Bedouin requirements of their desert-bred steeds should also be understood – what they were used for and how they were used. What physical requirements were required and what physical limitations were tolerated under Bedouin husbandry. The Bedouin being THE instigators of the Arabian horse as a Breed. And then we can understand the essence of the Arabian Horse Breed better and breed appropriately ~ if and only if we wish to do so?

By the way – put into simple terms by ‘in strain’ breeding, the breeder is line or inbreeding (to whatever degree) to a selected tail-female(s) per their named strain!

my thoughts huh.gif
HLM
Hi Judi

Our Sf Ibn Lateef is by Sf Ibn Nazeer (leading US and Canadian sire of 1976) out of Serenity Sagda, the latter a Supreme champion mare, and Sf Ibn Lateef is a race and stakes flat race winner. I bring this up because Serenity Sagda is a full sister to Hekmat.

But also Noha (1958) by Mashhour- an Egyptian National Dancing Champion and producer of also our SerenityBintNoha, who in turm produced multiple champions, like Serenity Mashour (Brazilian Natl.Champ.) Serenity Nohad,Serenity Ibn Osiris, Serenity Aristu and the race winner Serenity Noah.
Amazing what this Riyala bloodlines accomplished.

And it keeps on going, going, going, eh?

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Debra NowakGuest
Hello Friends,

Please accept my apology for the delay in reply. It is breeding and foaling season and I live in the barn. I want to thank Judi Parks for helping me post some photos as I do not know how to scan and post (will need to work on that).
I am delighted to be able to participate as the strains are definately I believe a "part of the art" of breeding horses. I have studied and bred intensly for over 30 years. The value of any breeding system depends upon careful analysis of a breeder's goals. We all breed horses in our own subjective way which is great!! as it gives diversity. WE all blend, manage and educate ourselves differently. The final result is a vision of each ones goals!! For me it has been to build a VERY planned breeding program that includes the Art of Strain Breeding.

My first introduction to strains was in reading Raswan's works. I have a copy of his charts on How to analyze a pedigree through COLOR CODING PEDIGREES and seeing the difference by infusing more Kuhaylan (strength and substance) with Saklawi(beauty, refinement) or Dahman ect...... After studying his works it made alot of sense to COLOR CODE PEDIGREES. I cannot do a mating or any pre-planning without color coding a pedigree first. To study any horse I must have the pedigree COLOR CODED(a very important tool) The PEDIGREE is a vital tool in any breeding program--It is key to genetic and structural identity. Inheritance factors come from a combination of traits passed down from preceding generations.

The learning process of what ingredients to use is a lifelong journey!! As I have stated many times the STRUCTURE CARD and the GENETIC CARD is KEY element to any program. This comes first for me before the STRAIN CARD, although I have made it apart of my journey to seek individuals who are specific strain familes and analyze them. TYPE-FAMILY-STRAIN they all WORK together.
I breed within specific tail female lines (classic Families) and blend accordingly.
I would never breed for the sake of a colored pedigree only!!!! This is where you can get in big trouble. The blend must be for many different parts of the puzzle.

Example: on finding an outcross stallion for us??? I was searching for specific factors I would NOT compromise --HUGE eyes TYPE -harmony and correctness in body type-straight legs and sound round feet with absolutely NO SIDE TAILS-- WE found *HS HERO (Simeon Sadik x Helwa Lancer) , he was a dream come true and the brownie points were his mother was an El Hilal daughter(we linebreed El Hilal exclusively) and his tail family was Kuhaylan and the same family of several of our foundation mares. Our outcross was Simeon Sadik who I felt was the perfect outcross for our program. So far the results have been more than I could have hoped for.

Future Example; To breed Abraxas Bint Abu to HS HERO again breeding Kuhaylan and they are both from the same Kuhaylan FAMILY but the outcross is SADIK.
Strain breeding is a "Part of the art" I feel a very important part of the art!!

My Humble Opinion
Debbie Nowak
Abraxas Arabians
HLM
Hi Debra
I like what you are stating. Always regret that we live so far apart and I cant see all your Arabians, except on photos at the EE, which I adore. If you ever are in Florida, please be our guest, see our SE's and we can chat for hours.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabin Farms
Abbasiyah
smile.gif Here is Debra's beautiful HS Hero (Simeon Sadik x Helwa Lancer)
Abbasiyah
rolleyes.gif Here is Hero's first foal Desert HS Hero (HS Hero x Abraxas Habielaa) owned by Desert Straights, Bill & Chris Sirpless in Oregon. (Hero and Desert HS Hero photos by Little)
HLM
Hi JUdi
thanks for the photo. He is georgeous. I bet you he could win a 100 miler, when ready. Or become a super dressage/3day event horse.

Hansi tongue.gif
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