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Fl Z


I have just finished a new book that was published here in Cairo. It is called “The Egyptian Alternative. A Guide to Arabian breeding” by Philippe Paraskevas who has been breeding here for a number of years. I am very happy because the book is honest and truthful. There are many beautiful passages about the Arabian horse with wonderful quotes from some early Arab writers and horseman.

The book shows a lot of thought and research and I like that it does not make any promotion for any individual horse or breeder. Mostly I am happy that a book was finally published by an Egyptian breeder that gives respect to the Arabian horse.

Dani Barbary
Shams El Assil Farm
Cairo, Egypt
cate
I saw this book advertised on Horse Times Egypt and just hope it becomes available through Amazon. It looks to be a real gem of a book and as you have written so nice that it is by an Egyptian breeder.
Liz Salmon
Dani, that book sounds wonderful. I will certainly get a copy. I hope to see you at the International show next month in Cairo, it will be my first time at the show.
Fl Z
It is available on Amazon.
carolmaginn
Hi Dani,

Thanks so much for the tip! I can't wait to get it! It sounds fantastic!

Carol

QUOTE (Fl Z @ Sep 6 2010, 04:14 AM) *
I have just finished a new book that was published here in Cairo. It is called “The Egyptian Alternative. A Guide to Arabian breeding” by Philippe Paraskevas who has been breeding here for a number of years. I am very happy because the book is honest and truthful. There are many beautiful passages about the Arabian horse with wonderful quotes from some early Arab writers and horseman.

The book shows a lot of thought and research and I like that it does not make any promotion for any individual horse or breeder. Mostly I am happy that a book was finally published by an Egyptian breeder that gives respect to the Arabian horse.

Dani Barbary
Shams El Assil Farm
Cairo, Egypt

anitae
I ordered my copy through Amazon and it came within a few days. I devoured it, and shed more than a few tears in agreement with some of the lamentations the author writes. It is a courageous book and will no doubt raise much controversy internationally. Nevertheless, as Dani Barbary says, it is a very thoughtful book, and will be thought-provoking for those who choose to read it carefully. One can hope we might have an interesting discussion here about the core messages that the author wants to convey.

Anita

QUOTE (Fl Z @ Sep 6 2010, 10:14 AM) *
I have just finished a new book that was published here in Cairo. It is called “The Egyptian Alternative. A Guide to Arabian breeding” by Philippe Paraskevas who has been breeding here for a number of years. I am very happy because the book is honest and truthful. There are many beautiful passages about the Arabian horse with wonderful quotes from some early Arab writers and horseman.

The book shows a lot of thought and research and I like that it does not make any promotion for any individual horse or breeder. Mostly I am happy that a book was finally published by an Egyptian breeder that gives respect to the Arabian horse.

Dani Barbary
Shams El Assil Farm
Cairo, Egypt

AHL
QUOTE (anitae @ Sep 6 2010, 09:37 AM) *
I ordered my copy through Amazon and it came within a few days. I devoured it, and shed more than a few tears in agreement with some of the lamentations the author writes. It is a courageous book and will no doubt raise much controversy internationally. Nevertheless, as Dani Barbary says, it is a very thoughtful book, and will be thought-provoking for those who choose to read it carefully. One can hope we might have an interesting discussion here about the core messages that the author wants to convey.

Anita


I have had a copy of this book for the past month, and had previewed it on several occasions. Its a "Good Story" about the Arabian and its history in the Middle East. But from an analytical perspective there is many aspects that I may not agree about !!

Its refelcts how the Arabian was bred for its good looks and prestige. It also tells the story of old Western Breeders, Pashas, kings and there relation with Arabian horse as a sign of royalty and nobility. However, its left out many of the core beliefs of the simple bedouin and why and how he owned and bred his small herd. The fact is that more and more Egyptian breeding farms are importing more and more from Europe and America "Western" Straight Egyptians (There must be a reason or else they wouldn't invest in such horses). The book challenges Egyptian Arabian breeders not to follow Western breeding doctrines. The Auther sees that we are "Drifting from the norm" as the Arabians bred outside of their original environment or not following the "Arabia Doctorine". Oookay !!! if that holds true ....what is the advise the Auther gives? ..or practical the soloution he is trying to convay? I could not really find answers to my questions !! However, I fault myself for maybe had not really read the book in detail...when I have more time I may go deeper and try to get to the core value of this book.!!!

Just to note: Althought I am not a "Westener" by birth....! I think that the West has done good to the breed in many domains i.e in sales, racing, training, showing and introducing others to the breed. I commend and THANK the "Westerners" of all catigories for trying to come the closest in understanding the Arabian horse and for breeding it as its original custodians, the Bedouins of Arabia and Egypt, bred it.
I THANK "Westerners" who want to breed Arabian horses that retain their original desert characteristics...They traveled to East and understood that they could not change history, so they chose to preserve it.
Lil Buddha
Hi Everyone. I am so intrigued by this new book and so, I went to Amazon and there it was, just like you all said. Thank you so much for starting this discussion, if it wasn't for you, I would not have learned about the book and the wonderful website for Horse Times. smile.gif
anitae
I'll not comment on the content until a few more folks have had a chance to read the book. I'm sure Liz, Carol, and Ralph will all have thoughtful comments - as would alot of others on this list.

Anita
ghosny
QUOTE (Fl Z @ Sep 6 2010, 10:14 AM) *
I have just finished a new book that was published here in Cairo. It is called “The Egyptian Alternative. A Guide to Arabian breeding” by Philippe Paraskevas who has been breeding here for a number of years. I am very happy because the book is honest and truthful. There are many beautiful passages about the Arabian horse with wonderful quotes from some early Arab writers and horseman.

The book shows a lot of thought and research and I like that it does not make any promotion for any individual horse or breeder. Mostly I am happy that a book was finally published by an Egyptian breeder that gives respect to the Arabian horse.

Dani Barbary
Shams El Assil Farm
Cairo, Egypt

What is confusing about the book is the message. The author who is a breeder that no one has seen his horses or he theirs is conveying the opinion of Mrs. Al Barbary. An opinion that she is entitled to being a long standing breeder who has no issues about people seeing her horses and goes to great lengths to back her opinion. The author on the other hand is a recluse who refuses to allow other breeders to visit his farm and who has come out with expert opinions about how the horse should be bred and should look like without for once using any illustrations. He is extremely disrespectful to his fellow breeders in the country and mocks and slights the efforts and the history of iconic breeders like Mohamed Aly the great and Abbas Pasha. Being a Greek it is understandable his animosity to the Turks but to forge and twist history is another level of dishonesty. The point is, he obviously doesn't know the first thing about breeding for while he claims that Judi Forbis's inbreeding has forever changed the horse he advocates that Egypt close in their doors to any new straight egyptian blood. It would have been a book worth reading had he given examples and illustrations as mentioned earlier. He argues that no illustrations were included because he is targeting the serious breeder. How convenient. He picks and chooses from history. to him Egypt had very little to do with the egyptian horse and that the master breeders in Arabia whom we should emulate are the ones to consider. Egypt was a transit station. So why is he breeding Egyptian horses is not clear. He could go and buy breeding stock from Dirab Stud in Saudi Arabia where he will find horses that have not been tainted by the western breeders or ignorant local breeders in his country who know nothing but to copy and paste. This is an angry and frustrated soul who is trying to stir things hoping that either he will have a place in history or better still people will flock to his farm to see his stock and maybe buy....?. When people attack other people's lifetime work to make a point it is only a sign of weakness. The proof is in the pudding as we know. Show us your pudding Mr. Paraskaves and explain to us why anatomically or structure wise the horses have been degraded and show us how it is done .I can go on and on but frankly it is not worth it . This is a book written by a desperate , frustrated man who was not able to convey his message in a civilized manner within his own community so he resorted instead to personal attacks and unfounded claims and historical distorts.I am afraid I may have intrigued the readers but it's ok for it is important as he has used his book to discredit the icons of this industry , without doing any field research and relying on poetic verses and the writing of others , to expose his intentions for what they really are. Mrs AL Barbary shouted out in his cocktail presentation to launch the book....." You are a good student ..' and she was right :his masters's voice gets an A ......Maybe he should consult with his master why the EAO, he claims he so desperately is trying to save has imported 22 horses from Lady Wentworth which kick started the EAO's breeding program. I wonder why the powers to be at the time did not go to Arabia ?. Or was this a mistake as well. Maybe you should also explain to us why you didn't approach the EAO with a detailed breeding plan like a good egyptian citizen ? I am sure the EAO would have been forever grateful. But no this would not be dramatic enough would it. A labor of love ...that;s what the author calls his work....hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it. . I have to admit he is clever but he joins the bandwagon on the subject of showing ....He know people will nod with approval as he criticizes the shows ..etc but it is an old issue and there is nothing novel in what he repeats. We are so happy though to see Mrs. Barbary join this forum or did she .......... wink.gif
Lil Buddha
QUOTE (anitae @ Sep 8 2010, 01:51 AM) *
I'll not comment on the content until a few more folks have had a chance to read the book. I'm sure Liz, Carol, and Ralph will all have thoughtful comments - as would alot of others on this list.

Anita


Hi Anita:

Hope all is well with you. Yesterday, I asked AHL why the PDF file for the Davnport importation was submitted as part of her post (and I think the photo above the file is also of Davenport.) Do you know why this information was posted? I am confused over the relation of Davenport and Egyptian Arabians. I wondered if the Davenport importation is part of the book?

Also, if I can use this opportunity to ask about the Babson book that you were part of. Is it still for sale, how much $ and where can this book be ordered?

Ralph
anitae
QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Sep 8 2010, 03:18 PM) *
Hi Anita:

Hope all is well with you. Yesterday, I asked AHL why the PDF file for the Davnport importation was submitted as part of her post (and I think the photo above the file is also of Davenport.) Do you know why this information was posted? I am confused over the relation of Davenport and Egyptian Arabians. I wondered if the Davenport importation is part of the book?

Also, if I can use this opportunity to ask about the Babson book that you were part of. Is it still for sale, how much $ and where can this book be ordered?

Ralph



I don't know why AHL posted that photo. Perhaps he'll explain.

Ralph, I'll send you a private message re: the Babson book. Yes, it is still available.

If there is to be a discussion of the book, I hope it will be on the points the author makes, and that people will sign their names.

Anita
cate
Unfortunately, for some reason Amazon cannot ship this book to my address in UK. I've had books from them before and never a problem but seems to be this time. Anyone else had this problem? Oh well hopefully it will come onto the UK Amazon website.
Abbasiyah
QUOTE (Fl Z @ Sep 6 2010, 04:14 AM) *
I have just finished a new book that was published here in Cairo. It is called “The Egyptian Alternative. A Guide to Arabian breeding” by Philippe Paraskevas who has been breeding here for a number of years. I am very happy because the book is honest and truthful. There are many beautiful passages about the Arabian horse with wonderful quotes from some early Arab writers and horseman.

The book shows a lot of thought and research and I like that it does not make any promotion for any individual horse or breeder. Mostly I am happy that a book was finally published by an Egyptian breeder that gives respect to the Arabian horse.

Dani Barbary
Shams El Assil Farm
Cairo, Egypt



Hello Dani,

THANK YOU for letting us know about this book. I am looking forward to reading it.

Best regards,

Judi Parks
Al Abbasiyah
AHL
Thank God, that this book was written in English...But I wonder why? If the author is Egyptian and his native tongue is Arabic ...Why did he choose English to write this book? After all he is lecturing the local Egyptian breeders or maybe thereis a hidden message intended to the "West"..???? or its maybe just avoiding confrontation with the local market powers (after all he has a farm and has to sell some horses) or have Arab breeders in the ME buy it then give up after 10 pages?

Futhermore, I think we are lucky to live in the digital age .....and the author too !!! as He did not have to venture in the desert or meet Bedouins nor get his hands dirty in any sort!!!! on the contrary, it appears that the book was written from the comfort of home and PC at finger tips, the author did not include any illustrations nor diagrams explained his thought to show (or deny) a certain point...but again maybe its me ...an Old Badowy (showing is better that telling). He even does not have any modern references that showed any interaction with people of information that either lived them or recorded them on any sort of media .....But I guess he chose to leave that to our vivid imagination!!!! I hope the Vol II will not be as Vol I ...!!! or maybe its better not to have VOL II
MASG
I was told that there was some discussion of this book on Straight Egyptians and came to see. I'm reading it and find the longest comments here about the book to be made by people who obviously haven't even read it. AHL's questions are answered in the Foreword, for example, pretty much all of them.

I find the book quite fascinating and the fact that it comes from a somewhat different perspective very interesting. I'll be most interested in hearing what other people think when they've read it. Whatever issues people might have personally with the author are fairly irrelevant as it is obviously a book intended to provoke thought and this it most certainly does. It is also very well written.





QUOTE (AHL @ Sep 8 2010, 11:19 PM) *
Thank God, that this book was written in English...But I wonder why? If the author is Egyptian and his native tongue is Arabic ...Why did he choose English to write this book? After all he is lecturing the local Egyptian breeders or maybe thereis a hidden message intended to the "West"..???? or its maybe just avoiding confrontation with the local market powers (after all he has a farm and has to sell some horses) or have Arab breeders in the ME buy it then give up after 10 pages?

Futhermore, I think we are lucky to live in the digital age .....and the author too !!! as He did not have to venture in the desert or meet Bedouins nor get his hands dirty in any sort!!!! on the contrary, it appears that the book was written from the comfort of home and PC at finger tips, the author did not include any illustrations nor diagrams explained his thought to show (or deny) a certain point...but again maybe its me ...an Old Badowy (showing is better that telling). He even does not have any modern references that showed any interaction with people of information that either lived them or recorded them on any sort of media .....But I guess he chose to leave that to our vivid imagination!!!! I hope the Vol II will not be as Vol I ...!!! or maybe its better not to have VOL II

MASG
I was told that there was some discussion of this book on Straight Egyptians and came to see. I'm reading it and find the longest comments here about the book to be made by people who obviously haven't even read it. AHL's questions are answered in the Foreword, for example, pretty much all of them.

I find the book quite fascinating and the fact that it comes from a somewhat different perspective very interesting. I'll be most interested in hearing what other people think when they've read it. Whatever issues people might have personally with the author are fairly irrelevant as it is obviously a book intended to provoke thought and this it most certainly does. It is also very well written.



farisapascalisa
I Loved that book too, i hope it will open the eyes to new generations of breeders about their role and reponsability in preserving the soul and the caracteristics of that unique breed.
J Anne Butler
Visit My Website

Where is the book available please?
Anne
anitae
QUOTE (J Anne Butler @ Sep 11 2010, 02:24 AM) *
Visit My Website

Where is the book available please?
Anne


Anne, go to the Amazon website and enter the author's name into the search (Phillippe Paraskevas). It should bring up the book “The Egyptian Alternative. A Guide to Arabian Breeding”, and you can order from there on the Amazon site. Mine was actually shipped from within the US and received within a few days, so I'm assuming anyone in the US can order through Amazon. Not sure about folks in the UK or elsewhere.

Anita
cate
I'm in the UK and was unable to order through Amazon USA, but I contacted the booksellers in Egypt and they are working on it with Amazon so that UK can order. Hopefully, it will not be too long before we can order.
cate
I'm absolutely delighted I have had an email from the publisher/bookseller and my payment has gone through...Brilliant! Can't wait.
diane
Do advise all when you know. Shipping isn't available to Australia either <sigh>

QUOTE (cate @ Sep 11 2010, 11:36 PM) *
I'm in the UK and was unable to order through Amazon USA, but I contacted the booksellers in Egypt and they are working on it with Amazon so that UK can order. Hopefully, it will not be too long before we can order.


Checked the publisher's website and the book is well priced though the postage appears to be excessive! Have sent an email.
Fl Z
For those of you who have had difficulty in ordering the book in Europe and the UK, it is also available through these additional sources as well as Amazon in the States.

Email: info@olms.de Germany

Email: obelisque.publications@gmail.com Egypt

Abbasiyah
QUOTE (Fl Z @ Sep 6 2010, 04:14 AM) *
I have just finished a new book that was published here in Cairo. It is called “The Egyptian Alternative. A Guide to Arabian breeding” by Philippe Paraskevas who has been breeding here for a number of years. I am very happy because the book is honest and truthful. There are many beautiful passages about the Arabian horse with wonderful quotes from some early Arab writers and horseman.

The book shows a lot of thought and research and I like that it does not make any promotion for any individual horse or breeder. Mostly I am happy that a book was finally published by an Egyptian breeder that gives respect to the Arabian horse.

Dani Barbary
Shams El Assil Farm
Cairo, Egypt


I received the book yesterday and sat down to read it after feeding. I couldn't put it down!! Personally I did not find it insulting to anyone but rather an impassioned plea for the soul of the Arabian and for breeders to focus on breeding to preserve or to restore the desert bred characteristics of our Egyptian Arabians. I agree with many of his observations about the current show ring and the direction that it is leading us. I most certainly hope that the EAO remains as the guardian of ALL the family lines and that it does not succumb to the pressure of the one IDEAL Arabian type doctrine. This book both stimulated me as a small breeder who is trying to preserve the desert bred characteristics in my own breeding programme and who is concerned with the direction that our Arabian has taken. Further it also depresses and scares me with thoughts of the loss of the EAO and not having this valuable source blood for the future. I don't agree with the WESTERN ways of showing so it stands to reason that I agree with his comments on what is going on in the shows. I also agree with him on the fact that judging standards need to be changed. All in all this is IMHO a great book that goes to the very heart of all the problems we are seeing in this industry. I too am looking forward to more people reading this book and hopefully they can finally SEE now what so many of us have been talking about for years.

Judi
Fl Z
For those of you who have had difficulty in ordering the book in Europe and the UK, it is also available through these additional sources as well as Amazon in the States.

Email: info@olms.de Germany/Europe

Email: obelisque.publications@gmail.com Egypt




Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
I read the book in a day... I found it informative and well written... I agree with much the Author has to say... In regards to photos it was explained in the forward the reason for no photos... Even without the photos I think anyone with an open mind has a very good idea as to what his concerns are.. As in all things Arabian and Straight Egyptian in particular there are factions and when those factions feel threatened outlooks become very reactionary in response.. I think this Author with a great deal of courage engages us in a study as to what is really fueling our breeding and purchasing choices... That my friend in the marketing machine to deny that is the great lie that will be the downfall of the Arabian and Straight Egyptian... Tracy
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
QUOTE (ghosny @ Sep 8 2010, 08:17 AM) *
He is extremely disrespectful to his fellow breeders in the country and mocks and slights the efforts and the history of iconic breeders like Mohamed Aly the great and Abbas Pasha. Being a Greek it is understandable his animosity to the Turks but to forge and twist history is another level of dishonesty. I don't think he has slighted nor been disrespectful to breeders of the past... The day the horses were brought off the desert they were changed forever... Egypt is surrounded by desert, but very fertile within the confines of the Nile Valley...The author brings up the point that no Egyptian has defined the Egyptian horse... With all due respect Miss Ott gave us the Blue List and Blue Star definition... Al Khamsa an entity in the USA has defined Al Khamsa or Desert Bred horses as the Asil Club has done in Europe.. The Pyramid Society defined by a group of importers of horses here to the USA define what is Straight Egyptian...I believe the Author is trying to tell breeders in Egypt that somewhere we need to fit into this puzzle and define the horses of our homeland as the outside world is defining him for us.

The point is, he obviously doesn't know the first thing about breeding for while he claims that Judi Forbis's inbreeding has forever changed the horse he advocates that Egypt close in their doors to any new straight egyptian blood.Actually he claims in his mindset they are very welcome in their homeland.. He challenges breeders in his home land to look for new blood within outcross and use of the Inshass horses to their potential. It would have been a book worth reading had he given examples and illustrations as mentioned earlier. He argues that no illustrations were included because he is targeting the serious breeder. Perhaps he didn't want his book to be about self promotion... Pictures always seem to lend to self promotionHow convenient. He picks and chooses from history. to him Egypt had very little to do with the egyptian horse and that the master breeders in Arabia whom we should emulate are the ones to consider. Egypt was a transit station. So why is he breeding Egyptian horses is not clear. He could go and buy breeding stock from Dirab Stud in Saudi Arabia where he will find horses that have not been tainted by the western breeders or ignorant local breeders in his country who know nothing but to copy and paste. This is an angry and frustrated soul who is trying to stir things hoping that either he will have a place in history or better still people will flock to his farm to see his stock and maybe buy....?. When people attack other people's lifetime work to make a point it is only a sign of weakness. The proof is in the pudding as we know. Show us your pudding Mr. Paraskaves and explain to us why anatomically or structure wise the horses have been degraded and show us how it is done .I can go on and on but frankly it is not worth it . This is a book written by a desperate , frustrated man who was not able to convey his message in a civilized manner within his own community so he resorted instead to personal attacks and unfounded claims and historical distorts.I am afraid I may have intrigued the readers but it's ok for it is important as he has used his book to discredit the icons of this industry , without doing any field research and relying on poetic verses and the writing of others , to expose his intentions for what they really are. Mrs AL Barbary shouted out in his cocktail presentation to launch the book....." You are a good student ..' and she was right :his masters's voice gets an A ......Maybe he should consult with his master why the EAO, he claims he so desperately is trying to save has imported 22 horses from Lady Wentworth which kick started the EAO's breeding program. I wonder why the powers to be at the time did not go to Arabia ? Perhaps because horses were dying in great numbers due to African Horse Sickness, that sounds like a good enough reason to me... . Or was this a mistake as well. Maybe you should also explain to us why you didn't approach the EAO with a detailed breeding plan like a good egyptian citizen ? I am sure the EAO would have been forever grateful. But no this would not be dramatic enough would it. A labor of love ...that;s what the author calls his work....hmmm makes you wonder doesn't it. . I have to admit he is clever but he joins the bandwagon on the subject of showing ....He know people will nod with approval as he criticizes the shows ..etc but it is an old issue and there is nothing novel in what he repeats. We are so happy though to see Mrs. Barbary join this forum or did she .......... wink.gif



karin
Thank you Tracy for your comments.

What I read here is that this book causes some discussion, against it or not. So it is interesting to read. We all have our opinions but someone can make an opening for thinking further what the world is doing to the egyptian horse, so it seems. I am not giving any opinion here, I cannot, but this book I will read. At least he had the courage to write down his own view. We can read it or not, agree or disagree but we can also learn from this book so it seems.

Karin
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
You are welcome Karin.. I hope you enjoy it... It definitely is thought provoking... Tracy
Marilyn Lang
I am not very far into the book but already I find myself somewhat side tracked by the fact that the author does not seem to want to give anyone from the West one iota of credit for the salvation of the straight Egyptian as we know it today. As I said, not that far into the book yet to make an opinion one way or the other but it would appear that the author feels the straight Egyptian as designated by the PS would have survived and probably on a much better scale without the interference of the West. That is simply not true. I think the West was the salvation of the straight Egyptian. Now if we are discussing more than the straight Egyptian as classified by the PS, then that is entirely a different discussion. Again, not that far into the book so will back off any opinion one way or the other until I have read the entire book. Everyone is entitiled to their opinion on the history of the Egyptian Arabian horse. Maybe I am being just a little defensive but that is of course my perogative and my personality. Ha!

Marilyn
karin
Marilyn,

You certainly have a good point to say that ofcourse the West did a good thing that time by buying and exporting SE horses. That was a very good thing.

What do you mean exactly by PS?

Karin
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Marilyn,

I agree in some areas the West is not given credit for in some instances rescuing the horses literally while Egypt was in a state of war.. The vibe I get when I read the book is the anger if you will call it that is intermingled with the halter show ring, excessive inbreeding, and looking to make the big money off the horses... There is an awareness and perhaps regret in Egypt in regards to all the treasures that have been taken from them and their horse is one of those treasures.

The only disagreement I have with the Author is the day the Desertbred Arabian walked off the desert he became a horse of the world.. The West may not have had access to him yet, but we admired and coveted him until we could bring him to all four corners of the world. Tracy
ghosny
QUOTE (Avalondales Egyptian Arabians @ Sep 27 2010, 12:56 PM) *
Marilyn,

I agree in some areas the West is not given credit for in some instances rescuing the horses literally while Egypt was in a state of war.. The vibe I get when I read the book is the anger if you will call it that is intermingled with the halter show ring, excessive inbreeding, and looking to make the big money off the horses... There is an awareness and perhaps regret in Egypt in regards to all the treasures that have been taken from them and their horse is one of those treasures.

The only disagreement I have with the Author is the day the Desertbred Arabian walked off the desert he became a horse of the world.. The West may not have had access to him yet, but we admired and coveted him until we could bring him to all four corners of the world. Tracy


courage , thought provoking ,....etc hmmmthe fact is it doesn't take courage to publish a book that interprets history in a way that would suit the author, it doesn't take courage to undermine the contribution of everyone who loved and cared for the horse for the last 200 years, it doesn't take courage to try and promote a breeding philosophy that the author fails to illustrate in any way for that matter. The author is angry not because he is an egyptian who is j protective of his heritage for he doesn't even consider it his heritage.You can describe writing this book in many ways but courage is not the word. It takes courage to demonstrate to the world his work which he refuses , it takes courage and integrity to appreciate and accept the contribution of everyone in the development of this horse including the west , it takes courage to admit that the conclusions that are reached about the quality of horses in Egypt are based , as far as the author is concerned, on hearsay and not first hand observations. Courage I don't think so......... Since the author so cleverly started this thread why doesn't he engage us all and enter in a constructive discussion on this forum. Now that would be courage........
Gari
Let me say that I've not read the book and surely look forward to doing so. That said, IF the argument is that the West stop breeding for the show ring and get back to that creature of the desert-good luck! For so many reasons:

1) Desert horses defined survival of the fittest. In the West grass and enhanced nutrition are abundant as well as vets to oversee a horse's well being. If survival of the fittest were practiced in the West owners would end up going to jail on any number of counts.....

2) Desert horses looks changed when confronted with the West's available nutrition. From gestation in the womb to birth to growing up the look of the Arabian changed often in just one one generation.

3) Don't know about Western Europe but in the US we have an outfit called the IRS that demands profits within 7 years or one can't write-off the horses. That is the driving force behind showring competition....and why we see so many leave the business after just those first 7 years because they haven't figured out how to breed the horses properly.

That is off the top of my head and having not read the book could be way off base but think those that have can certainly add to the observations perhaps noting conformational differences that the desert environment enhanced but we would define as a disaster in the West, e.g., larger heads with greater cranial capacity; slight turn out in the front legs that made paddling through sand more efficient; balanced necks that kept the horse more coordinated than the loooong necks that seem to be the sine qua non of the showring-oh so necessary to a win in the US.
Saazar
QUOTE (Abbasiyah @ Sep 22 2010, 02:17 AM) *
I received the book yesterday and sat down to read it after feeding. I couldn't put it down!! Personally I did not find it insulting to anyone but rather an impassioned plea for the soul of the Arabian and for breeders to focus on breeding to preserve or to restore the desert bred characteristics of our Egyptian Arabians. I agree with many of his observations about the current show ring and the direction that it is leading us. I most certainly hope that the EAO remains as the guardian of ALL the family lines and that it does not succumb to the pressure of the one IDEAL Arabian type doctrine. This book both stimulated me as a small breeder who is trying to preserve the desert bred characteristics in my own breeding programme and who is concerned with the direction that our Arabian has taken. Further it also depresses and scares me with thoughts of the loss of the EAO and not having this valuable source blood for the future. I don't agree with the WESTERN ways of showing so it stands to reason that I agree with his comments on what is going on in the shows. I also agree with him on the fact that judging standards need to be changed. All in all this is IMHO a great book that goes to the very heart of all the problems we are seeing in this industry. I too am looking forward to more people reading this book and hopefully they can finally SEE now what so many of us have been talking about for years.

Judi



Judi - I agree with your overview of the book. In my opinion it is a book all egyptian breeders need to read, digest and install in their breeding programs. Our gene pool is already limited, we need to make use of all bloodlines available to us and move past the linebreeding/inbreeding. I did hear the issue of linebreeding vs inbreeding was brought up at the breeders conferance during the discussion on genetics. We are seeing more and more genetic faults as we narrow our gene pool more and more. I agree with much of what the author of this book states in this book. It certainly provides food for thought. As for the author's discussion of the Western influence, if you look at most of the straight egyptian breeding programs of the middle east they are dominated by one bloodline and as a result are seeing a high volume of genetic issues, I think the author is asking breeders to open their minds and bring in new outcross blood to strenghten their herds.

Amy
ghosny
QUOTE (Gari @ Sep 27 2010, 03:03 PM) *
Let me say that I've not read the book and surely look forward to doing so. That said, IF the argument is that the West stop breeding for the show ring and get back to that creature of the desert-good luck! For so many reasons:

1) Desert horses defined survival of the fittest. In the West grass and enhanced nutrition are abundant as well as vets to oversee a horse's well being. If survival of the fittest were practiced in the West owners would end up going to jail on any number of counts.....

2) Desert horses looks changed when confronted with the West's available nutrition. From gestation in the womb to birth to growing up the look of the Arabian changed often in just one one generation.

3) Don't know about Western Europe but in the US we have an outfit called the IRS that demands profits within 7 years or one can't write-off the horses. That is the driving force behind showring competition....and why we see so many leave the business after just those first 7 years because they haven't figured out how to breed the horses properly.

That is off the top of my head and having not read the book could be way off base but think those that have can certainly add to the observations perhaps noting conformational differences that the desert environment enhanced but we would define as a disaster in the West, e.g., larger heads with greater cranial capacity; slight turn out in the front legs that made paddling through sand more efficient; balanced necks that kept the horse more coordinated than the loooong necks that seem to be the sine qua non of the showring-oh so necessary to a win in the US.



There is a lot of soul searching going on and some of the people commenting on this thread keep talking about the desert horse and the qualities that were lost etc...including ofcourse the courageous author who is torn apart because the desert horse has been degraded bla bla ..etc etc It also seems to me that many of who write here have little knowledge of how this horse evolved over the years ...etc. Someone suggested African Horse Sickness may have been the reason that the Egyptians didn't bring new blood from Arabia. I suggest for those to read the EAO book vol 1 and go over what Ashoub wrote are the reasons.

For those who claim that the Egyptians never defined the egyptian horse let me just say that the breeding programs in Egypt defined the horse. There was no need for a definition , the definition introduced by the Pyramid Society recognized the superior quality of the horses bred in Egypt and urged people to breed only those lines that were used in those programs. it was a testimonial to the master breeders in Egypt and not in Arabia . Those are undeniable facts. So for someone to claim that Egypt did not define the horse is just laughable . Definitions and formulas don't define the horse , actual breeding does. As for the purists, the blue, the black , the green lists ..etc that have taken the definition further this is different then breeding.
The Egyptian breeders don't need to fit in a puzzle , it is there heritage even if this greek author fails to see it, their ancestors laid the foundation and it is up to the rest of the world to catch up.
You define a horse by producing a form not a formula . Now we hear a lot about this never ending , instrument of war....and all those poetic verses. Can someone deifne for me what this all means or what form does it translate into...

It is also laughable to think that the reason the author did not put pictures in his book is because he loaths self promotion . This whole book is about self promotion. Anyone who claims he has the answer should share with the world his findings , how else would he substantiate all those claims......think about it or maybe not

What is puzzling is why the people claiming that the horse has deteriorated since he left the desert are still breeding straight egyptians . Why don't they ,including the author, start their own club or pursue their own vision of an Arabian horse. According to them the horse from the get go was defective. The RAS and EAO horses included.

I hope Mrs. Al Barbary who is a staunch opponent of imported Egyptians and who started this thread can maybe explain to us what her thinking was when she imported a spanish arabian stallion to include in her breeding program twenty some odd years ago? What qualities was she hoping to introduce and how importing Straight egyptian horses would be discouraged especially by her. Maybe the author can share with us his thoughts on this puzzling matter.......

Saazar
*-
QUOTE (ghosny @ Sep 27 2010, 04:33 PM) *
There is a lot of soul searching going on and some of the people commenting on this thread keep talking about the desert horse and the qualities that were lost etc...including ofcourse the courageous author who is torn apart because the desert horse has been degraded bla bla ..etc etc It also seems to me that many of who write here have little knowledge of how this horse evolved over the years ...etc. Someone suggested African Horse Sickness may have been the reason that the Egyptians didn't bring new blood from Arabia. I suggest for those to read the EAO book vol 1 and go over what Ashoub wrote are the reasons.

For those who claim that the Egyptians never defined the egyptian horse let me just say that the breeding programs in Egypt defined the horse. There was no need for a definition , the definition introduced by the Pyramid Society recognized the superior quality of the horses bred in Egypt and urged people to breed only those lines that were used in those programs. it was a testimonial to the master breeders in Egypt and not in Arabia . Those are undeniable facts. So for someone to claim that Egypt did not define the horse is just laughable . Definitions and formulas don't define the horse , actual breeding does. As for the purists, the blue, the black , the green lists ..etc that have taken the definition further this is different then breeding.
The Egyptian breeders don't need to fit in a puzzle , it is there heritage even if this greek author fails to see it, their ancestors laid the foundation and it is up to the rest of the world to catch up.
You define a horse by producing a form not a formula . Now we hear a lot about this never ending , instrument of war....and all those poetic verses. Can someone deifne for me what this all means or what form does it translate into...

It is also laughable to think that the reason the author did not put pictures in his book is because he loaths self promotion . This whole book is about self promotion. Anyone who claims he has the answer should share with the world his findings , how else would he substantiate all those claims......think about it or maybe not

What is puzzling is why the people claiming that the horse has deteriorated since he left the desert are still breeding straight egyptians . Why don't they ,including the author, start their own club or pursue their own vision of an Arabian horse. According to them the horse from the get go was defective. The RAS and EAO horses included.

I hope Mrs. Al Barbary who is a staunch opponent of imported Egyptians and who started this thread can maybe explain to us what her thinking was when she imported a spanish arabian stallion to include in her breeding program twenty some odd years ago? What qualities was she hoping to introduce and how importing Straight egyptian horses would be discouraged especially by her. Maybe the author can share with us his thoughts on this puzzling matter.......




Ghosny - would you mind signing your posts? You obvioulsy feel strongly about this book so please let us know who you are

Thanks,
Amy
Bebah
I agree Marylin, If the west had not been breeding in Paraskevas's, so called, unconscionable way, for the past 50 years The Straight Egyptian would most likely be extinct by now.
I too was sidetracked by Philipe's existentialist posture on breeding the Egyptian Arabian.

I believe that the majority of SE breeders breed to a breed standard. And Many do it very well. I believed we all breed to improve and preserve. And if we have been influenced by Forbis, Nagel, Babson, Marshall's, and so many others.
So be it. I have found much more worthwhile information under their tutelage than I am finding in Paraskeves' book.

I totally disagree that we have bred out the heart and courage of the SE. I think many of the horses in my barn would be ready and willing to go into battle, run 'til they dropped, whatever, if they were asked. We just don't go into battle here in the mid-west on horseback much anymore. And it is our fault that more of our horses are not brought out in other performance disciplines

I would be curious to know how many, pure in strain, SE horses are left in the world. Certainly in this country strains have become outcrossed and become very dilute. Is that a bad thing ? I think not. I think this is the same theory that Paraskevas is advocating with different semantics

I resent the way he leads the reader along by the nose, with his quotes , "and if you believe that you must believe this."

I think Mr. Paraskevas is an anachronism and would have been happier if he had lived a century ago.

Undoubtedly Mr. P is more knowledgeable about the SE Arabian than I. The difference being, I like what I know.
. .
phanilah
I finished reading my copy last night and while I don't agree with everything the author believes, I think the book is a must read for all breeders and it needs to be read carefully and not just skimmed. Also, don't jump to conclusions too early and don't let your brain turn off if you hit something you don't agree with. IMO, there is a lot of food for thought within the covers and rarely do long held beliefs sit quietly when being challenged. wink.gif

For anyone who doesn't yet have the book, the current issue of the Arabian Horse World magazine has an extensive book review on this book...well worth reading for a preliminary look at the contents.

Beth
ghosny
QUOTE (Saazar @ Sep 27 2010, 05:00 PM) *
*-



Ghosny - would you mind signing your posts? You obvioulsy feel strongly about this book so please let us know who you are

Thanks,
Amy



All you need to do is to look at the small box in the left corner of my posts to realize that it was me who posted / If you are interested further ,my first name is Gamal if this means anything to you . I am 42 years old , single and just starting new as I have mentioned in my previous posts .I continue to be amused by the people that consider themselves experts in breeding this horse and freely lend advise that they can not substantiate .. I have visited with many of the breeders and have developed very strong opinions right or wrong about certain aspects of this industry. Maybe you can share with us who you are .It is possible that everyone else knows you but I don't because I am usually only interested in the arguments that are put forward. They could be posted by master breeders or by starting breeders or by just lovers of the breed that cannot afford to breed. I do have strong feelings about the contents of the book do you? You see it is not enough to make statements like this is a mind provoking , courageous attempt ..etc etc tell us know why and if you agree with what the author puts forward then please share with us why is it that you are still breeding straight egyptians. GAMAL
PS. The wars were the not reason Egypt sold a lot of horses in 60' and 70" . There was a changing of the guards so to speak and breeding horses for a government that had just deposed the King was , to say the least, the least of their problems and was a symbol of aristocracy .
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
QUOTE (Gari @ Sep 27 2010, 03:03 PM) *
Let me say that I've not read the book and surely look forward to doing so. That said, IF the argument is that the West stop breeding for the show ring and get back to that creature of the desert-good luck! For so many reasons:

1) Desert horses defined survival of the fittest. In the West grass and enhanced nutrition are abundant as well as vets to oversee a horse's well being. If survival of the fittest were practiced in the West owners would end up going to jail on any number of counts.....

2) Desert horses looks changed when confronted with the West's available nutrition. From gestation in the womb to birth to growing up the look of the Arabian changed often in just one one generation.

3) Don't know about Western Europe but in the US we have an outfit called the IRS that demands profits within 7 years or one can't write-off the horses. That is the driving force behind showring competition....and why we see so many leave the business after just those first 7 years because they haven't figured out how to breed the horses properly.

That is off the top of my head and having not read the book could be way off base but think those that have can certainly add to the observations perhaps noting conformational differences that the desert environment enhanced but we would define as a disaster in the West, e.g., larger heads with greater cranial capacity; slight turn out in the front legs that made paddling through sand more efficient; balanced necks that kept the horse more coordinated than the loooong necks that seem to be the sine qua non of the showring-oh so necessary to a win in the US.


Gari,

I suppose you would need to read the book.. Your points are valid, but it is a bit more than just showing... It needs to be read with an open mind.. Many issues: Inbreeding versus outcrossing, judging the Egyptian Horse, horses imported back to Egypt, and the EAO.. Tracy
ghosny
QUOTE (phanilah @ Sep 27 2010, 08:17 PM) *
I finished reading my copy last night and while I don't agree with everything the author believes, I think the book is a must read for all breeders and it needs to be read carefully and not just skimmed. Also, don't jump to conclusions too early and don't let your brain turn off if you hit something you don't agree with. IMO, there is a lot of food for thought within the covers and rarely do long held beliefs sit quietly when being challenged. wink.gif

For anyone who doesn't yet have the book, the current issue of the Arabian Horse World magazine has an extensive book review on this book...well worth reading for a preliminary look at the contents.

Beth



For those of you who are not aware the author paid a pretty penny ( tens of thousands of dollars) to have this review published in the Arabian Horse World. You need to understand that this was a paid ad so everything that is said in the magazine should be taken with a grain of salt. This is not a rumor but a fact and anyone interested can easily verify this info. So those out there who believe that the author is not self promoting think again........
phanilah
QUOTE (ghosny @ Sep 28 2010, 12:32 AM) *
For those of you who are not aware the author paid a pretty penny ( tens of thousands of dollars) to have this review published in the Arabian Horse World. You need to understand that this was a paid ad so everything that is said in the magazine should be taken with a grain of salt. This is not a rumor but a fact and anyone interested can easily verify this info. So those out there who believe that the author is not self promoting think again........


Have you actually read the review? If so, then you know it is mostly quotes from the book with some overall comment on what the author says - hardly anything that needs to be taken with a grain of salt....it is what it is. Given the length of the review, I wouldn't be surprised if it was paid for...but it wouldn't be the first time someone paid for editorial coverage in a magazine.

While I appreciate you have your opinion on this book, your obvious bias makes it difficult to not see that you appear to have an agenda set...and following your own words - some of your comments regarding this book might need to be "taken with a grain of salt." Why not let people read for themselves and then make their own decision...instead of, what appears to be, a continued effort to try to discredit the author?

Beth
Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
Geez Hosny,

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.. A few things I will say in regards to some of your comments are YES... African Horse Sickness was the reason for importation of the Blunt Bloodlines...There would have been no Nazeer without it and Ibn Hafiza was the last horse within SE designations that didn't have Blunt Bloodlines..The RAS also went back to Arabia for outcross Nabras, El Deree, and Mashan are a few that come to mind and are considered foundation horses. In regards to the 60's and 70's, I beg to differ Egypt was at war with Israel.. King Farouk was deposed in 1952, that would be when the changing of the guard started... Perhaps, you should do some reading in regards to the modern Western Importers as during the importations of the the post 58 horses there were many bumpy rides due to war..

You are entitled to your strong feelings as this book will surely inflame many.. Personal attacks so not cool.. Since you have asked for accomplishments here is one of mine...Perhaps you will share some of your accomplishments.. Tracy
Click to view attachment
Gari
QUOTE (Avalondales Egyptian Arabians @ Sep 28 2010, 12:18 AM) *
Gari,

I suppose you would need to read the book.. Your points are valid, but it is a bit more than just showing... It needs to be read with an open mind.. Many issues: Inbreeding versus outcrossing, judging the Egyptian Horse, horses imported back to Egypt, and the EAO.. Tracy



Hi Tracy,

You are absolutely right and I so look forward to reading it.

ETA: one thing that has bothered me for years and why I've imported 2 horses from the UK-is the level of inbreeding throughout Arabdom tho' it seems more intense in SE's. Now with what I think are minimally 6 lethals in the breed as a whole, consideration of outcrosses seems vital. Hopefully Beth will address this as her knowledge on the subject is superior to most.

Gari
ghosny
QUOTE (phanilah @ Sep 27 2010, 10:47 PM) *
Have you actually read the review? If so, then you know it is mostly quotes from the book with some overall comment on what the author says - hardly anything that needs to be taken with a grain of salt....it is what it is. Given the length of the review, I wouldn't be surprised if it was paid for...but it wouldn't be the first time someone paid for editorial coverage in a magazine.

While I appreciate you have your opinion on this book, your obvious bias makes it difficult to not see that you appear to have an agenda set...and following your own words - some of your comments regarding this book might need to be "taken with a grain of salt." Why not let people read for themselves and then make their own decision...instead of, what appears to be, a continued effort to try to discredit the author?

Beth


Sure I have an agenda and one that was obvious from my first post. The agenda is to expose the author's intentions for what they really are.and to defend the history and contribution of the master breeders of Egypt and the world and to recognize rather then slight their contribution and efforts. On the other hand, I never said don't read the book by all means do that and all my responses were to people who read the book and yes I did read the review and I am glad you confirm that all those reviews are paid for ads so I rest my case. The author is the one who mounted an attack on the egyptian breeders and accused them of surrendering their heritage and not knowing what they are doing . I don't need to discredit the author as I personally do not know him . What I am disputing are his facts and what I am questioning are his motives . what do you expect we should do, sit back and accept unfounded and biased claims . I don't think so .
ghosny
QUOTE (Avalondales Egyptian Arabians @ Sep 27 2010, 11:01 PM) *
Geez Hosny,

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.. A few things I will say in regards to some of your comments are YES... African Horse Sickness was the reason for importation of the Blunt Bloodlines...There would have been no Nazeer without it and Ibn Hafiza was the last horse within SE designations that didn't have Blunt Bloodlines..The RAS also went back to Arabia for outcross Nabras, El Deree, and Mashan are a few that come to mind and are considered foundation horses. In regards to the 60's and 70's, I beg to differ Egypt was at war with Israel.. King Farouk was deposed in 1952, that would be when the changing of the guard started... Perhaps, you should do some reading in regards to the modern Western Importers as during the importations of the the post 58 horses there were many bumpy rides due to war..

You are entitled to your strong feelings as this book will surely inflame many.. Personal attacks so not cool.. Since you have asked for accomplishments here is one of mine...Perhaps you will share some of your accomplishments.. Tracy
Click to view attachment


.The 48,67 and 73 wars had nothing to do with the exportation of the horses and I am not going to debate this as those are hard facts and you are welcome to verify this with the historians and the EAO titself. I am not talking about the Blunt importations I am talking about importations from Arabia which you claimed didnt happen because of AHS and so I was just clarifying a point . Read my first post. I will again suggest that you read Ashoub's account of his trip to Arabia. The RAS never went to Arabia after the importations from the Blunts, Also I suggest you check how El Deree, Nabras ..etc were added to the herd. There was no commission that went to Arabia to buy those horses.

I am not sure what you consider a personal attack and what you consider a healthy argument. Tracy I dont remember asking you about your accomplishments but thanks for posting yours .I was directing my post to Amy who asked me to identify myself . Can you tell us what is the breeding of this horse.

Finally, I am glad you agree that without the importation of the Blunt horses which all went back to ALi Pasha Sherif bloodlines the straight egyptian horse would not be as we know it today. Maybe you should explain this to the author who conveniently chooses to skip this fact. I guess the master breeders of Egypt knew what they were doing after all. No one said then that the RAS were following the west they merely followed their heritage just as as the present master breeders of Egypt are doing.
DemelzaH
QUOTE (ghosny @ Sep 28 2010, 04:10 PM) *
.The 48,67 and 73 wars had nothing to do with the exportation of the horses and I am not going to debate this as those are hard facts and you are welcome to verify this with the historians and the EAO titself. I am not talking about the Blunt importations I am talking about importations from Arabia which you claimed didnt happen because of AHS and so I was just clarifying a point . Read my first post. I will again suggest that you read Ashoub's account of his trip to Arabia. The RAS never went to Arabia after the importations from the Blunts, Also I suggest you check how El Deree, Nabras ..etc were added to the herd. There was no commission that went to Arabia to buy those horses.
Hi Ghosny, does Dr Mabrouk's words below align with what Dr Ashoub wrote? I haven't read either the EAO vol 1 or the book under discussion.

Dr. Ahmed Mabrouk, The Chief of the Animal Breeding Section, Royal
Agricultural Society of Egypt, "A Journey to Arabia" ("Breeding The Pure Bred
Arab Horse in Egypt" - 1938), taken from The Journal of the Arab Horse
Society 1935-1938
:
pp 9-11
In the beginning of this century, the Horse Breeding Commission of the

Egyptian Government, at that time, under the Patronage of His Highness

Prince Omar Toussoun, decided that it was necessary to increase the type

and strength of the Arab horses generally bred in Egypt and arrangements

were made to introduce, for Stud purpose, the English thoroughbred

horses. After an experimental period, it was found that the produce of

such a cross gained in type and vigor from his small dam and only

nervousness and bad temper from his English sire. Such a cross produced

vicious and ugly horses, lacking most of the principal features of the

Arab horse such as courage and good temper.



The Royal Agricultural Society first took a hand in the task of improving

the breeding of Arab horses in 1908. As a result of the unsatisfacory

product obtained from the cross breedin, the Society decided in 1913 to

replace the English stallions by authentic pedigreed Arabs. It was very

difficult to procure pedigreed horses from their native countries in the

East as it will be shown in this report. Consequently, it was decided to

gather the pedigreed horses found in Egypt and to breed them for the

production of stallions with the certainty of their origin.



At that time the best pedigree horses in Egypt existed only at the

stables of H.H. Abbas Pasha II, H.R.H. Prince Mohamed Ali and Lady Anne

Blunt. In 1913 a few pure bred mares and horses were obtained by the

Royal Agricultural Society from these stables. In 1919 the Society

bought in England 20 horses from Lady Wentworth, daughter of Lady Anne

Blunt. From that time on, the Royal Agricultural Society did not import

English horses and breeding was consequently very successful. It is the

intention of the Society to persevere until they reach a standard when

Egypt will be recognised the world over as the breeding place for the

purest bred pedigreed Arab horse.



For some time the Royal Agricultural Society strongly opposed taking

outside blood into their pure bred Arab stock. This subject was discussed

at many Committee meetings, and it was at last unanimously agreed that if

the pure pedigree bred horse is continually inbred a position would be

created where there would be 'all pedigree and no horse'. Experience has

shown that the continual inbreeding produces a deterioration of quality,

and that the introduction of new pure blood is essential. Establishments

interested in breeding the pure Arab horse all over the world are convinced

of this fact. For instance Poland, Hungary, Russia, America--in fact

every country interested in the pure bred Arab horse--have been compelled

to go to Arabia to seek good outside blood of Arabian hroses to introduce

into their stock.



My recent journey to Nejd, Iraq and Syria, the report of which is

appended, was for the purpose of securing pure thorough-bred Arabian

animals to enfuse new blood into the stables of the Royal Agricultural

Society, thereby completing the valuable work undertaken by the Society.

I met with many difficulties. To my surprise no stud books were

available, consequently ti was not possible to select animals with any

degree of certainty that they were thorough-bred and pure Arabs.



This difficulty has persisted for many years. In a report of a journey

undertaken some years ago by Mr. Brown he says: 'after an extended

search we found no horses of outstanding merit and excellence in the Irak

region and the horses of Homs, Hamma and Aleppo were all of the same

order. We finally gave up the search in despair'.



Even as far back as 1875 when breeding of Arab horses was in vogue the

difficulty of finding pure blood stock was experienced. The sole result

of Major Apton's two years trip to Arabia was the purchase of one mare

called Naomi.



Notwithstanding these great difficulties the finding of new blood is essential,
for if the inbreeding is allowed to go on without
the infusion of new blood the pure Arab horse, which has been famous for
centures, will disappear in a limited number of generations, giving place
to an inferior breed of animal which will lack the stamina, courage and
handsome appearance of the original breed.

It is some consolation to me to know of the failure of so many missions
searching for suitable new blood, even in better times than prevail
today, times when good Arab horses were more plentiful, better bred and
preserved than is the case today.

Even H.H. Prince Feisul would not give me a certificate of authenticity
for any imported animal. He recognised only the Nejd horses bred by
himself and his relatives. These are comparatively few and the majority
are not suitable for exportation to Egypt owing to their not being sound,
old age, undesirable markings, etc.

although the search for pure-bred Arab horses upon whose pedigree and
breed absolute reliance can be placed, is hedged around with so many
difficulties, I am by no means discouraged. My journey leaves me with
the conviction that by an extended tour and a careful search I should be
successful in discovering the pure bred animal which is so essential to
the carying on of the work of breeding the pure Arab horse in Egypt.

My work in Arabia was considerably assisted by the valuable help rendered
by H.M. King Abdel Aziz Seoud who displayed great kindness and goodwill
towards Egypt and especially for His Majesty The King and His Highness
Prince Omar Toussoun, H.M. King Abdel Aziz Seoud was, however, dubious as
to succeed in my mission.

I found during my journey, that the pick of the Arab horses are sento to
Egypt where they are in demand for racing. The good prices they procure
when sold and the substantial race prizes are the attraction.

I express my sincere gratitude to the Royal Agricultural Society, under
the Presidency of His Highness Prince Omar Toussoun, for the opportunity
which was given to me to visit the different countries in which Arab
horses originated and for which I have felt a stong attachment since my
youth.

Dr. AHMED MABROUK.

Avalondales Egyptian Arabians
QUOTE (ghosny @ Sep 28 2010, 04:10 AM) *
.The 48,67 and 73 wars had nothing to do with the exportation of the horses and I am not going to debate this as those are hard facts and you are welcome to verify this with the historians and the EAO titself. I am not talking about the Blunt importations I am talking about importations from Arabia which you claimed didnt happen because of AHS and so I was just clarifying a point . Read my first post. I will again suggest that you read Ashoub's account of his trip to Arabia. The RAS never went to Arabia after the importations from the Blunts, Also I suggest you check how El Deree, Nabras ..etc were added to the herd. There was no commission that went to Arabia to buy those horses.

I am not sure what you consider a personal attack and what you consider a healthy argument. Tracy I dont remember asking you about your accomplishments but thanks for posting yours .I was directing my post to Amy who asked me to identify myself . Can you tell us what is the breeding of this horse.

Finally, I am glad you agree that without the importation of the Blunt horses which all went back to ALi Pasha Sherif bloodlines the straight egyptian horse would not be as we know it today. Maybe you should explain this to the author who conveniently chooses to skip this fact. I guess the master breeders of Egypt knew what they were doing after all. No one said then that the RAS were following the west they merely followed their heritage just as as the present master breeders of Egypt are doing.


Hosny,

You didn't put any perimeters on the discussion... You just stated certain things never happened... In absolutes there usually are exceptions..I didn't claim horses weren't incorporated from out of the desert.. Your comment was in regards to the importation of Blunt Bloodlines, my comment was African Horse Sickness was a contributing factor to those importations as the Egyptian herd had been decimated by the disease.. My comment was not absolute... In regards to Desert bred horses, I gave three examples off the top of my head and pretty easy examples at that... You didn't give me the perimeters of commissioned expeditions..So, this whole discussion pertains to perceptions. That is why the book must be read with an open mind.. Preservation breeding can be pretty contentious.. In hindsight there have been many mistakes... Today we have no 100% Inshass bloodlines those deemed worthy were incorporated into the main EAO herd. Non-Nazeer only approximately 22 in the world within New Egyptian perimeters. I can't remember the exact number but the author claims there were over 150 distinct bloodlines now we have three sire lines and 7 to 9 female lines. The reason why not much of the history is in this book is we all know bits and pieces of the history, some more then others..The Author is trying to engage us in the future... Where do we go from here!!! I think that is a thought provoking question..

Personal attacks on Mrs. El Barbary and the Author for starters... If you aim is to discredit either then those tactics usually work in reverse... Healthy argument is the back and forth we are experiencing at the moment..

I figured if you were asking for credentials it would be soon you were asking for mine... She is the cross of a 43% Nazeer Stallion and an Heirloom El Deree mare whose dam was an German Import.. She was the first foal of our stallion... The first SE bred on this farm.. Prior to her sale, the plan was to bred her to a non-Nazeer stallion for outcross. Her sale has allowed for the breeding of her dam and three other mares to the non-Nazeer stallion for multiple outcross considerations.. Tracy
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