Good Day Everyone!

I just read the thread about The Atticus. The comments about his disposition, or temperment, prompted me to start this thread.

When you say that a horse doesn't have a good disposition, what do you mean by that? What are the factors or observations you are basing your comments on?

Let’s think a moment about what constitutes a "good" disposition. To me, a good disposition means that a horse is first, "gentle." He/she exhibits no aggressive or mean tendancies like biting, kicking, or lunging at you. Let's keep in mind that horses, particularly stallions, when put under the rigors of modern-day showing and the often times questionable training methods, may not be able to endure the treatment they receive and so they begin to rebel. They pin their ears and swish their tails. Some graduate to more serious and dangerous behaviors like striking, biting, and charging their handlers. None of these responses are acceptable.

Yet, I will say that horses are not a whole lot different from people. I have a very "short" fuse and can be described as "tempermental" by my closest friends. Many factors have come into play to shape my temperment. I'm not saying it's acceptable, just that it formed as a result of my experiences.

So it is with horses. I'd be willing to bet that 9 out 10 foals will mature into lovely mannered, quiet tempered horses if they are handled with affection, patience, and kindness, and not pushed beyond their mental and physical capabilities. Once in a while you will have a horse that just is not "people-oriented." They do exist, believe me. A handler must be considerate of them and treat them with the utmost respect. These horses often will do man's bidding, but would strongly prefer no interaction with humans and, though sad to ponder, we must respect them and leave them be--as they are--not FORCE them to be something they are not!

I know of a very prominent, phenomenally successful stallion who could care less about the humans in his life. His current owner worships the ground he walks on and treats him with the utmost care and respect. His foals are phenomenal, but no one who knows this horse could say he has a good disposition. He was shown extensively at halter. I believe that the inherited disposition of his sire and his stressful life contributed to the way he now views his world.

Is disposition inheritable? I believe strongly that it is. Some strains are just "hotter" to handle by nature than others. These horses don't belong in the hands of amateurs, or people that enjoy "dominating" something bigger and stronger than they are. People who take the time to understand how a horse thinks and views his world are best left to manage this type of horse. What makes the Arabian horse so desirable is that with just few exceptions, they are full of fire and spirit, yet truly long for human companionship and are very intelligent, gentle and responsive horses. More than any other breed, they have an innate sense of "self" and a proud and regal bearing. It is the one of their strongest characteristics and what drew me to them as a little child many years ago.

Many stallions at stud today have questionable reputations in the temperment department. Yet, their offspring are sweet-tempered and a joy to be around. It becomes difficult then to judge a horse merely on temperment alone if it possesses valuable bloodlines, great beauty, and correct conformation. I ask, "Was the bad temperment human-created, or is it a transmissable character trait?"

Let’s hear your comments!

--Susan

My dear Susan,

I am in agreement with which you say.
I adore the stallion that has a good temperament, that it demonstrates his condition (stallion) but without being extremely aggressive with his surroundings. They do not please to the stallions too many to me calmed, without that spark that the Arabian characterizes.
On the aggressiveness which many trainers use to obtain the best thing of their horse, is unforgivable.
I create firmly that the Arabian is love, patience and respect. With these three things, they can give the best thing us.

I have seen a stallion very mistreated, that to see it in track was terrible, everything scared to him. Great part of their offspring, inherited that terrible fear towards the people.
I wish that the charming amiability is not lost that has the Arabians Horses towards us.

This is my simple opinion.

Best Regards,

Marianella

It has been my experience that bad temperament is a learned trait. It is learned from bad trainers and bad handlers and bad owners.

Actually I never saw a problem with Atticus's temperment-was fairly easy to handle when he was in texas.

Hi!

Susan:

Very good idea and I agree with you

Marianella:

I agree with you, too.


Kiss,

Ann

Good evening Ladypurr
99,99 percent of al illmannered horses are menmade.
In my opinion and experiences Stallions are highly predictable, mares not that much. One can talk a stallion in and out of things, but when abused, he will never, ever forget. He will understand reprementation, which must be exercised, otherwise you have a spoiled brat on your hand.
He is no different than a young human child. He is also a "blackmailer", when having been spoiled. He will test you for then leading role, and when you put your foot down,
will lay ff again. I never had a probleme with a stallion, feel safer with it than with a mare, who can become rather moody at times, particular times. But a stallion has to be taught manners, he will also not forget. We have ten stallions and a child can lead them, spleep in their stalls with them, and would be safe. thEY listen to commands
INSTANTLY. they better.
Exceptions to all rules, of course.

Have a nice evening
Hansi

I agree with Hansi. If I want a predictable horse, I would ALWAYS pick a stallion. A stallion may have a particular bad habit, but he won't surprise you. In riding, a stallon is always my choice. He is smarter or at least thinks for himself. You are part of his herd and he looks out for you in my experience. He is more alert, and his senses are better than yours. This can keep you out of trouble if you live in a National Forest as I do. A stallion can be trained to be around mares in heat when riding, but I prefer riding with this buddy alone.

I've spoken to people wh have bought so called 'unmanageable' horses. They tell me that much of the time, the horses behavior is changed (for the better) after a few weeks at its new home.

I don't think 'nature' makes bad, unmanageable horses. Sure some may be a bit hotter, more sensitive, but htis isn't 'bad' behavior in my book.

Also, I've noticed, like some have stated, that the definition of 'bad behavior' is different with each person, and sometimes different between cultures/countries. For instance, several of my aquaintances will not tolerate a horse that is not totally submissive. For them, even slight jigging is overt disobediance.

Becca

an inteesting subject, since we've all heard about lines that are harder/more difficult. I wonder just how much is the handling? I even spoke with one 'old timer' who described Morafic as vicious, but have heard this from no other people. It is all in the personal perception, I guess.

The revelation of an exceptional temperament was what absolutely sold me on *Carmargue. It was back in the early '80's and Bill Gore had just shown *Cam at the British Nationals and they won (if you all didn't know it it was Bill Gore that was on the end of the lead that brought *Carmargue all that initial attention). Gore introduced me to *Carmargue's owner who locked me in the stall with *Carmargue while he went looking for another show halter so we could photograph *Carmargue. I am slightly stallion phobic and being locked in a stall with a strange stallion with mares ambling by , made one a tad apprehensive. Imagine the shock when this great big white stallion with eyes that could melt butter showed that he much preferred the hugs and attention of the human in his stall than a mare in season going by ! And *Carmargue passed that sweetness to oh so many of his babies. That is a great temperament. A stallion you can trust even with mares around.

Bright Shadow (*Carmargue's great grandsire) was like that as well and passed the trait for up to 5 generations according to Cecil Covey and later Fred Rice. They could ride him down to the mare pasture, turn him in with the mares, where he'd cover whoever was ready to go and walk right back to the gait, be re-saddled and stroll back home. Another extraordinary temperament that never offered anything but pure love. That temperament was said to be inherited from Fejr, a Feluka daughter, and half sister to *Ferda who was also known for sweetness of disposition so frequently passed to her descendants.

Lady Purr's definition of temperament seems quite on target.

I totally agree that really bad tempered horses have been made by humans, but there is very definately a high heritability rate to disposition in general. Some lines, like the Babson, have legendary great dispositions with their horses being very people oriented and easily trained. Other lines are known for having hotter and less people oriented temperments. A standoffish horse can be improved greatly by good handling, but you will never make a true people horse out of him.

The Old Egyptian lines are noted for people loving dispositions. My theory is that it has to do with the fact that they were intially bred in the bedouin manner where tent disposition and being the partner of man were highly desireable. When racing became the focus of breeding in Egypt, the breeding criteria were altered to speed, size and power. Naturally the New Egyptians are larger and taller, and they are frequently less people oriented (though of course the root blood is the same, so you will get individuals that are very sweet). By and large, race horse traits and people horse traits are different and since so many traits are linked, when you alter one, you often alter another that you perhaps did not care to alter.

A hotter horse is more likely to develop a bad personality because his high energy level is frenquently viewed as aggression and punished as such. When intelligent hot blooded horses are excessively punished they frequently become more aggressive and their overall manner towards people becomes less positive.

Susan

Bad disposition and behavior is never an excused thing.. acknowledging of course that treatment and handling will go a long ways towards keeping or ruining a good disposition. I also agree with the statements about stallions.. I feel much safer around my stallions than I would a mare.. simply because they are fairly predictable and they will look out for their handler / owner more.

Disposition however is also in the eye of the beholder.. I'll use my oldest stallion as an example. Walk up to his stall and you'll most likely be greated with a grumble from him.. not because he's vicious but because you've invaded his space.. ignore his initial bluff and you can halter and handle him with no problem at all. He's all bluff.... lol... Would someone that didn't know him be able to figure this out on first sight? Probably not until they've been around him long enough to know he's all bluff and bluster and is really quite a big softy and kind of wussy when you get down to it He's the one I teach people to lead and lunge with because while he will prance, he does not bolt off, he does not pull and he obeys easily.. In the 13+ years I've been honored to be his guardian he's never kicked, never struck, never charged.. never done anything overtly aggressive towards me or anyone handling him... nipping is another thing but it's something we deal with and while he is mouthy still to a degree.. he is not a biter per se.

Stallions also I've figured out have their people... With Prince you have to earn his respect.. you have to be fair and firm enough with him to show him that you deserve his respect.. otherwise he'll continue to push the boundaries until he finds a place he can get his way with. Does this make him bad dispositioned? Of course not.. it makes him too darn smart for his own good sometimes though!

My younger colt is much more friendly when you approach his stall.. he'll stick out his tongue to be rubbed and if you're ever prone to stick your hand in and give him a scratch he will obligingly turn his whole side to you and demand you pay homage.. he loves to be brushed and scratched and rubbed and will stand for that all day long.. giving him a bath is a real adventure because he wants to leeean into you while you're scrubbing him Right now he's in the throes of discovering his manhood, growing up into a beautiful young two year old and I expect him to mature in a few years to a sweet and lovable stallion that is easy to handle, but smart enough to get by with things if his handler will let him.

My Hackney pony stallion is a doll... though hotter and more fiery than either of my arabians he is still a gentleman and the 9 year old daughter Megan frequently goes in and handles him for grooming, brushing and feet care.

My children are allowed around any of my stallions, my oldest daughter learned to ride in part on Prince once she was ready to move beyond Lazerpony... I have seen some truly horrid stallions out there, but by and large I think that stallions choose their people and everyone else is just beyond their respect and obedience. I loved what someone said when they said you can talk a stallion into about anything.. its true.. you just have to prove you're worth listening to first

Greetings!

Nice to see this topic resurrected. Interesting and valuable new comments, and yes I agree--stallions are honest and always possess that extra little something that really competent riders prefer in competition.

Would love to hear from more people on this topic!

--Susan

The following is about a mare, but it is an interesting story about disposition. I was on a trail ride with a bunch of other people including some of my horse's pasturemates. My mare had to stick to her buddies like glue, if I wanted to ride ahead, nope. If I wanted to go behind, she jigged trying to catch up. I held her back, was using a hackamore and this must have hurt her. When the ride ended, my mare waited till I got all the tack off, and as I removed the hackamore, she bit my side and my little finger. Then she ran off.

I was so shocked I just stood there shrieking "she bit me. She bit me." Now my mare has the most beautiful disposition so I attribute her actions as being in pain from being held back by the hackamore while trying to catch up to her buddies. She was mad and she sure told me she was mad!

My horse never did anything like that again, and it is just so interesting that she took out her frustration like that. She had never previously even tried to bite anyone - ever - so this makes it all the more incredible that she wanted to show how angry she was. I never got after her of course, I figured that's what it was. It is just so amazing how a horse can communicate their feelings like that.

There is a lot of truth in the statement that disposition depends greatly on the handling a horse receives, but there are exceptions to every rule. Some years ago I raised two colts from a mare and stallion I owned. They lived with me into their adulthood and my husband and I used them for our personal mounts. The youngest of the two was my favorite for riding but although he was raised the same as the other, the disposition was vastly different. Both of these geldings had the best of handling and care. The youngest one attacked me for the first time as a two year old. I went in his stall and turned my back and got bitten hard right away. I put him in his place and didn't think too much of it. Things went from bad to worse though until I couldn't go in his stall without a whip for he would crowd me into the wall and squeeze me hard with his rump or threaten to kick me. For a long time I tied him up in the barn so that I could get in to get hold of him. In the end, as a six year old, we put him down. I was scared someone would get in the stall with him and get badly hurt. This horse was healthy, got lots of turn out and exercise and should never have turned out this way. The only thing I can tie this to is that we had some behavior problems with his sire but in a much milder way.

I have talen on several abused horses and had wonderful success with getting them oriented to people. The biggest success would be Imperial Dakilah who is now the barn pet and follows everyone around begging peppermints. When I got her I was told that I was her last hope before the meat truck. My stallion is a wonderful people horse. He sometimes comes up to me and lays his ears back and asks me "are you scared of me??? you should be!" When I laugh at him he just puts his head in the halter and off we go. My daughter rides him around the farm bareback and in a halter, mares everywhere. No problem. You need to have great respect for a stallion, but they will be your partner and your best buddy much sooner than a mare will. I have watched with great interest how disposition is passed from one horse to another. Handling does play a great part but inheritance makes a good disposition available to work with in the first place.

Hello,
I wanted to add a little to this discussion, as we have had some experience with temperamental horses. We have several horses in own barn, right now, that were considered rank. Each has been given a chance to be who they are within acceptable behaviors, whether that is the stand offish one or the highly sensitive one and they are very happy and thriving. We know that each horse is an individual and it takes a horseman to disquise the personality and work with it.
I have to wonder when someone complains about the temperament of a horse, whether that person is really qualified and experienced enough to even handle the horse.
That said, I also think that there is a very subliminal message sometimes when a horses temperament is discribed as "bad" or "difficult". Too many times I have seem this used as a ploy to discourage competition. How many wonderful horses have been lost to the breed because someone used this method to advance their own agenda?

I just wanted to add, that I am not suggesting that the gelding was not as you have stated. There are some horses that just are rank, and your's seems to be one of them. But, it was that individual horse, not the breeding as the full brother was a very dependable companion.
Human beings can be the same, one sibling being a horror and another being a nicest person in the world, with no explanation as to why that is.

lol nancy I had to giggle when I read this.. you just described Prince to a "T" lol... "are you scared of me??? you should be!! Because I'm a STALLION baby!!"

hehe thanks for the giggle

We have one of those extraordinary temperamented Arabian stallions. He has always been this way from day one since we brought him home as a 2 year old. He is my personal endurance horse and we have a rapport that makes my husband jealous sometimes. Of course, the feeling is mutual with my stallion. I am his and he is mine. The way it should be. So far, he is passing this lovely trait to his foals.


Carrie Stewart
Oak Lawn Arabians

hello Susan,

An awfully slow reply of mine:

Manara Samira is our young SE mare, of Babson bloodlines. She is young (now age 6), andwas trained for two months Fall 2003 but needed more time to grow and get strong. Easter 2004 I rode her at 2 trail rides, after months of training stop, no problem. Then last week (February 2005 so after many months) her trainer rode her again for a photo session. No problem. When she was younger (2003) she was hesitant to cross water all by herself. Last week, she crossed the water - after months of non-riding - without blinking her eyes, trusting her rider.

This is one of the disposition characteristics I like most. After a period of sickness, lacking time, injury, whatever, you need to be able to saddle and sit at your horse without any problem. The horse must be eager to hit the trails with you.

Top level endurance horses enjoy a winter break every year, this break can last up to many months (4-6). it would not be very nice for an endurance rider to eat dust, each time the endurance horse is saddled after a necessary break from work.

Our half Arabians at home are also like this, they need breaks from time to time and we saddle them up and hit the road, just like that. Even after 6 months breaks because of pregnancy or any break after any injury or misfortune. Just like that. it's convenient and it's necessary.

Two little stories on disposition:
Basheke came to me on lease. A very sweet (loved hand treats ) & mellow breeding stallion. He had had about 60 days training as a 3yr. Never ridden again til he came to me@ 7yrs Couple of minutes in the round pen & off we went. Rode him everywhere often in just a halter & lead. An easy horse to breed with, never a hint of temper
After some 6 months, it was time for Basheke to go back home. Got him all slicked up put on a fancy show halter, picked up the show whip, moved to the end of the lead to set him up.as I raised the whip, just UP not even towards him, his ears went flat back, mouth wide open ready in a instant to ATTACK Needless to say, found just how far I can throw a whip when properly motivated:lol: He stopped cold & gave me the --why did you do that look---his usual laid-back self
Now if day one I had felt the need to carry a whip with a stallion on his way to greet a new band of mares what a TOTALLY different view I would have had of Basheke's disposition

Al Sarason RSI came to me unused for stud duty for 6 years He had even been to a profession AI training facility with the hope of using AI. He was not aggressive to the mares but to his handlers The very first time he gave me an attitude about being washed, I stepped back to reprimand him for kicking at me. ONE look at his face was enough to change my mind about even bumping him with the halter. I sat his wash bucket down & started leading him back to his stall. Told him in plain English: Either stand quiet to be washed or it's back to your stall & another stallion will get ALL the mares. Sarason stopped dead in his tracks, the look on his face was priceless Stood perfectly still to be cleaned & from that time on if he started to get fussy I'd just ask--you want to go back or do you want to stand He always made the right choice & I never, ever felt threatened by him

Just how darn smart are these Arab horses anyway????

American Guest:

In the case of the gelding, you need to know he was never abused and given every opportunity to mature into a decent horse. This is the only case of a truly "rank" horse I have ever had in my barn. It wasn't a disease issue, not lack of company or turnout, not caused by abuse or poor handling or being handled by persons unfamiliar with horses. I was so sorry to put the horse down. He was definitely my favorite riding horse and he trained well and was nice to ride. At that time I had small children and my husband put it to me that if they happened to get in his stall and were attacked, how would I feel. As a responsible horse owner I didn't feel I could sell him either. I have told this story, which still saddens me, to show that some horses cannot be changed by good handling. I firmly believe that disposition needs to be one of the first things we look for in a horse.

Chiron wrote:
"Just how darn smart are these Arab horses anyway???? "

We all know the answer: really, really, really smart.

I agree with Susan that a lot of disposition is inherited (same with kids, in my experience). But, as with kids, some can be ruined by how they are treated. Others take a lot of abuse and seem to still have a smile. Some who were harmed by bad treatment can be "rehabilitated" to regain their natural joy; some can't.

We can breed for good temperment and away from the few who seem to pass on problems. Then, we need to be sure that our handling fosters the cooperation, loyalty, and other wonderful characteristics that the Bedouin bred in there for a few thousand years. Otherwise, folks should get a different breed of horse.

Anita

A bit off topic, sorry but maybe not .

In one of the European shows, the stallion attacked the handler and was knocked over, then the owner jumped over the barrier into the ring and the stallion then attacked him, knocking him over and then rearing and coming down on him with his 2 front feet on to him?

The horse was still placed 1st in his class .

Oh really? Interesting. Over here the stallion would have been excused and gelded.

Hi Jane

And my first question would be "who was the owner and the handler"? I have seen good tempered horses who appeared to change on sight of certain people. I have also heard of a stallion who would become aggresive to anyone who smelled of alcohol as he had been abused by a handler who liked to show how macho he was when he was drunk. The horse associated the smell of alcohol with being knocked about and reacted accordingly.

I agree the horse should have been sent out of the ring but maybe the stallion was "getting his own back", just a thought. I would never blame a horse for retaliating to constant abuse.

Barbara

Many years ago I bought a Saddlebred from a trainer. This horse had gotten the trainer down in the stall and broken his leg. The trainer had put this horse in a tail set (without cutting the tail first), and had the horse in an eight inch shank curb, with the bit tied to the breast plate of the tail set.

When I first laid eyes on Commander, he was covered with whip cuts and his mouth looked like hamburger. I bought him and started working to turn him around. It took a long time, but he became my best friend and I was able to teach on him (even handicapped kids). One day we were at a show standing on the rail watching. The trainer who had tortured Commander came up and said something to me. Instantly Commander grabbed the guy by his shoulder and lifted him off the ground (Commander was 17'). He never forgot, and I was never able to have a vet or a farrier touch him unless I held him. He lived to be 25 and was for me the most wonderful horse, but he never forgot the treatment he suffered.

If you take a high courager horse and torment it, you can create a monster.

Susan