What are the good and less good points in each of those breeding programs?
Which herd do/did you like most? Why?
Pros & cons of the leading sires?
History pics to share?
Did the combination of the two match?
Greetings,
Full Version: Ansata Vs Gleannloch
Hello!
What are the good and less good points in each of those breeding programs?
Which herd do/did you like most? Why?
Pros & cons of the leading sires?
History pics to share?
Did the combination of the two match?
Greetings,
What are the good and less good points in each of those breeding programs?
Which herd do/did you like most? Why?
Pros & cons of the leading sires?
History pics to share?
Did the combination of the two match?
Greetings,
The greatest fault of Gleannloch Farm is that it does not exist anymore.
Morafic!
And as far as pre-SE days, Surf!
Ansata IBN Halima!
And as far as pre-SE days, Surf!
Ansata IBN Halima!
Yes, the major loss is that Glennloch is no more and the Forbis's have no heirs and their program may not continue. Luckily, both programs left a great number of superior horses that have strengthened lines everywhere. The Ansata "look" will last forever. As a very general statement, the Ansata horses could use a bit more stretch and their current efforts seem to be working along these lines with the Morafic influence through Ioemhotep. I loved the Ansata Nile horses which were Ansata x Babson crosses. We will be forever indebted to both of these programs.
I think the Gleannloch horses resemble the earlier imports more so than the Ansata horses.
Gleannloch produced more athletic and useable horses in the long run.
Ansata produced a very pretty Arabian horse of that there is no doubt but over the period of in-breeding and line-breeding Ansata ran into problems with legs, short necks, lack of movement and size. This is not meant to offend anyone, just a general observation.
Too bad Gleannloch is not breeding anymore!
Gleannloch produced more athletic and useable horses in the long run.
Ansata produced a very pretty Arabian horse of that there is no doubt but over the period of in-breeding and line-breeding Ansata ran into problems with legs, short necks, lack of movement and size. This is not meant to offend anyone, just a general observation.
Too bad Gleannloch is not breeding anymore!
You can't really say one vs the other in this instance.
Their greatest strengths were when they combined such as in the case of El Hilal (*Ansata Ibn Halima x *Bint Nefisaa) who stands unchallanged as the greatest Egyptian Arabian horse in the history of the world.
http://www.elmasri.net/SE%20Stallions/elhilal1966.htm
Their greatest strengths were when they combined such as in the case of El Hilal (*Ansata Ibn Halima x *Bint Nefisaa) who stands unchallanged as the greatest Egyptian Arabian horse in the history of the world.
http://www.elmasri.net/SE%20Stallions/elhilal1966.htm
Quote:
"Their greatest strengths were when they combined such as in the case of El Hilal (*Ansata Ibn Halima x *Bint Nefisaa) who stands unchallanged as the greatest Egyptian Arabian horse in the history of the world."
This is the first time someone claimed El Hilal is "the" greatest Egyptian Arabian horse of the world.
Would you be so kind to tell me why?
He was a nice horse who was first at Sheila Varian's farm but she wasn't satisfied with him and then he changed hands many times because his foals were everything but consistent. They were hit or miss and more of them were "miss". Then Ron Palalek of Vantage Point Farm entered his life and everything changed. He was heavily campagned and his foals were promoted. Still they were hit or miss but now just the "hits" were shown. He bred a huge number of mares each year, predominately non-Egyptian mares, and yes, sometimes a good one was born. Is it any wonder? Later in his life some Egyptian breeders bred their mares to him and some of the foals were good but the majority again was so-so. El Hilal's most famous sE son is Imperial Al Kamar who has a very strong tail female line but himself is as smallish and unspectacular as his sire. Imperial Al Kamar sired some winning daughters who went overseas and many of them again are small horses with straight profiles and awfully bad gaits and very weak legs.
El Hilal himself could not trot and had not a long walk. He was small and showed it. On the positive side he had a short back with big eyes and high tail carriage. But aren't this in general the trademarks of EVERY good Arabian horse?
Hmh, I can't see why a highly promoted stallion with hundreds of foals of which just ten or some more made it to the top in the show ring or in the breeding shed is the "GREATEST" sE stallion in the world.
"Their greatest strengths were when they combined such as in the case of El Hilal (*Ansata Ibn Halima x *Bint Nefisaa) who stands unchallanged as the greatest Egyptian Arabian horse in the history of the world."
This is the first time someone claimed El Hilal is "the" greatest Egyptian Arabian horse of the world.
Would you be so kind to tell me why?
He was a nice horse who was first at Sheila Varian's farm but she wasn't satisfied with him and then he changed hands many times because his foals were everything but consistent. They were hit or miss and more of them were "miss". Then Ron Palalek of Vantage Point Farm entered his life and everything changed. He was heavily campagned and his foals were promoted. Still they were hit or miss but now just the "hits" were shown. He bred a huge number of mares each year, predominately non-Egyptian mares, and yes, sometimes a good one was born. Is it any wonder? Later in his life some Egyptian breeders bred their mares to him and some of the foals were good but the majority again was so-so. El Hilal's most famous sE son is Imperial Al Kamar who has a very strong tail female line but himself is as smallish and unspectacular as his sire. Imperial Al Kamar sired some winning daughters who went overseas and many of them again are small horses with straight profiles and awfully bad gaits and very weak legs.
El Hilal himself could not trot and had not a long walk. He was small and showed it. On the positive side he had a short back with big eyes and high tail carriage. But aren't this in general the trademarks of EVERY good Arabian horse?
Hmh, I can't see why a highly promoted stallion with hundreds of foals of which just ten or some more made it to the top in the show ring or in the breeding shed is the "GREATEST" sE stallion in the world.
Ansata horses are easily recognisable for everyone, newcomer or experienced breeder. They have a distinct type and body. In general they are the most beautiful sE horses and the new generation has come over the old traits that weren't very good like too short necks, weak legs or so-so movement. Judith Forbis created a horse that she had in mind and most breeders in Europe and the Middle East seem to have the same ideal picture in mind because there her horses are highly valued.
On the negative side in all those years just a few number of Ansata horses have proved themselves under saddle. Ansata Ibn Halima wasn't the born athlete and bred this on to further generation. We are in the good position to have videos of both foundation stallions today - Ansata's Ibn Halima and Gleannloch Farm's Morafic. Ansata Ibn Halima was the pretty one, the one with the smooth body but not the ultamite athlete that could stand the test of the desert. He produced like he was, beautiful horses with a good big eye and his special type. Ansata Ibn Halima wasn't recogniseable as a stallion at first glance. In his stall he could easily be a mare and shown at halter he just stood there and enjoyed himself, even with a mare in view he looked himslef calm and quiet like a mare. Perfect in proportion, beautiful animal, but he wasn't very animated. Morafic on the other hand looked like a lion from teh desert, his walk and trot were spectacular, he pranced through the ring highly animated, ears up, neck and head high in the air, as if he wanted to say "Who are the other stallion I have to fight with?" He was a king send to us from ancient Egypt to help building up a new generation of sE horses. He did that in Germany and the US and the world. His sons never showed the same "dish" but were stamped by their sire high-set necks, athletic ability, height and stamina. So was the typical Gleannloch horse. Not as easy to see like the prettier Ansata type but the uniformity was there. It wasn't as obvious as at Ansata but the Gleannloch horses had many traits in common even when this traits were more appealing to a rider than a breeder. Just my thoughts.
On the negative side in all those years just a few number of Ansata horses have proved themselves under saddle. Ansata Ibn Halima wasn't the born athlete and bred this on to further generation. We are in the good position to have videos of both foundation stallions today - Ansata's Ibn Halima and Gleannloch Farm's Morafic. Ansata Ibn Halima was the pretty one, the one with the smooth body but not the ultamite athlete that could stand the test of the desert. He produced like he was, beautiful horses with a good big eye and his special type. Ansata Ibn Halima wasn't recogniseable as a stallion at first glance. In his stall he could easily be a mare and shown at halter he just stood there and enjoyed himself, even with a mare in view he looked himslef calm and quiet like a mare. Perfect in proportion, beautiful animal, but he wasn't very animated. Morafic on the other hand looked like a lion from teh desert, his walk and trot were spectacular, he pranced through the ring highly animated, ears up, neck and head high in the air, as if he wanted to say "Who are the other stallion I have to fight with?" He was a king send to us from ancient Egypt to help building up a new generation of sE horses. He did that in Germany and the US and the world. His sons never showed the same "dish" but were stamped by their sire high-set necks, athletic ability, height and stamina. So was the typical Gleannloch horse. Not as easy to see like the prettier Ansata type but the uniformity was there. It wasn't as obvious as at Ansata but the Gleannloch horses had many traits in common even when this traits were more appealing to a rider than a breeder. Just my thoughts.
You're absolutely right, he was an awful little horse with a bad disposition. I recall the one time I met him and he lunged at me trying to bite me, when that did not work he started cow kicking at my head. I had to crawl on my hands and knees bleeding to my truck and when I looked up he was stomping the front of the vehicle with his bad legs. He then chased the vehicle onto the highway biting at the bumper. It was the awful fear of that moment that made me say good things about him. I'm sorry...
Good morning Felix
Wow! do I ever agree with you. I knew Hilal well, and he was all you said so well. Sheila Varian is one of the greatest horsewoman I know, and Hilal could not stand up to her requirements. Imperial Al Kamar also carries "Hossny" who's front legs could have been better.
But then again, there is no such thing as a perfect horse.
Have a ncie day
Hansi
Wow! do I ever agree with you. I knew Hilal well, and he was all you said so well. Sheila Varian is one of the greatest horsewoman I know, and Hilal could not stand up to her requirements. Imperial Al Kamar also carries "Hossny" who's front legs could have been better.
But then again, there is no such thing as a perfect horse.
Have a ncie day
Hansi
HI Felix
You have a keen eye. You are absolutey correct. I knew Morafic very well, many times spent weeks at Gleannloch and Morafic to me was the epitomy of a Desert Horse. there was no comparrison between Ibn Halima and him.
they were as different as day and night and produced accordingly. Only in some cases did the Gleannloch/Ansata lines matched well with each other. Our Serenity horses are very much like the earlier Gleannloch horses in type and athletic abilities. But so are the PlumGRove and Albadeia horses. They are flying machines with incredible "reach".
I mean no offence here, I am only stating my personal opinion.
Have a nice day
Hansi
You have a keen eye. You are absolutey correct. I knew Morafic very well, many times spent weeks at Gleannloch and Morafic to me was the epitomy of a Desert Horse. there was no comparrison between Ibn Halima and him.
they were as different as day and night and produced accordingly. Only in some cases did the Gleannloch/Ansata lines matched well with each other. Our Serenity horses are very much like the earlier Gleannloch horses in type and athletic abilities. But so are the PlumGRove and Albadeia horses. They are flying machines with incredible "reach".
I mean no offence here, I am only stating my personal opinion.
Have a nice day
Hansi
I don't agree with the comments that have been made here, not at all. And I am very upset with the negative comments that have been made about a spectacular, very significant Arabian Horse like *Ansata Ibn Halima. However, I won't waste my time trying to counter some of the ridiculous points that were made. Let me say that I would much rather have a "puppy-like" disposition in my barn than a "lion". It is a good thing to have a stallion that is as quiet as a mare. That is what I want. I am safe, my kids are safe...no worries, right? What most people are missing, is that yes, movement is only part of what makes a horse suitable for performance. The mind of a horse is probably the most important part. If a horse does not have the brain to work, what good is the movement, if you cannot work with him? I think that Felix's comments portray very vividly what is wrong with the stability of the Arabian Horse market. I take his comments for what they are. He is a spectator looking for excitement in some very boring to watch halter classes. He wants the spice, from his very safe position in the bleachers. If Felix were actively involved as a rider, he would choose a horse that is easy to work with. A horse that would not put his life in danger. A horse that can be trusted. I compete as an adult amateur and I don't know anyone who wants a horse with a lion-like personality. Anyone who promotes a horse with this type of disposition is really out of touch with what most people, like me want. And that is why people choose other breeds to own ratherr than the Arabian Horse. Because we have people who just don't get it, who are clueless. And it is funny, because from all that I know and understand, the original Arabian Horse was not a "lion". Where did the tent-like disposition come from? From the LION?
Daer Sand*Dollar, I really don't know what you are talking about. I never ever wrote about the DISPOSITION of a lion, I talked about attitude, presence, and style. Morafic was a lion in that regard and Ansata Ibn Halima a kitty. That's not negative at all. It's a fact and I never said either of them is better. They were different horses and Gleannloch and Ansata totally different breeding programs. Why is it so difficult for some to talk the truth and to HEAR the truth and accept the truth? I don't want to take anything away from Ansata Ibn Halima. He was pretty and a "classic" in his own right. But he was as he was and he sired accordingly. The same with Morafic. By the way, did you ever saw Ansata Ibn Halima?
Wasn't the question to talk about the differences in the breeding programes of Ansata and Gleannloch? To say it again: I didn't say this is better or that is better. Just pointed out the differences. Is this so hard to accept?
And talking about DISPOSITION. Wrong, dear Sand*Dollar, I am a rider and I would clearly choose the lion not the kitty. I love strong characters and strong horses with power and pride. In that light I see the Ansata stallion Iemhotep as a combination of Morafic and Ansata Ibn Halima. The power and will of Morafic with the smooth body and softer lines of an Ansata Ibn Halima. Iemhotep is not a puppy and knows exactly how to play games with those who showed a sign of fear. The same horse was Morafic according to all who were in contact with him. Not mean, not at least, but playful and a teaser. Yes, Sandy*Dollar, this is a disposition I like. And isn't it wonderful that both of us find what we are searching for in one and the same breed?
Wasn't the question to talk about the differences in the breeding programes of Ansata and Gleannloch? To say it again: I didn't say this is better or that is better. Just pointed out the differences. Is this so hard to accept?
And talking about DISPOSITION. Wrong, dear Sand*Dollar, I am a rider and I would clearly choose the lion not the kitty. I love strong characters and strong horses with power and pride. In that light I see the Ansata stallion Iemhotep as a combination of Morafic and Ansata Ibn Halima. The power and will of Morafic with the smooth body and softer lines of an Ansata Ibn Halima. Iemhotep is not a puppy and knows exactly how to play games with those who showed a sign of fear. The same horse was Morafic according to all who were in contact with him. Not mean, not at least, but playful and a teaser. Yes, Sandy*Dollar, this is a disposition I like. And isn't it wonderful that both of us find what we are searching for in one and the same breed?
Dear Boo,
still no answer. Why is El Hilal the "greatest"?
still no answer. Why is El Hilal the "greatest"?
Well Felix, you said it right again. Some people go by photos, hearsay and never saw the horses they discussed.
Yes Morafix was a lion, had so much regality, and yet was as gentle and honest asa horse can be. I have a video when Tom McNair played with him, it is delightful.
There also is a difference of riding ahorse which can do just enough to get around the corner, has extreme limits, versa one which can go all the way. the latter was Morafic and all his children, daughters and sons and they bred this on as well.
This is never to slight Ibn Halima, but for sure not a horse you would take to ride over and through anything to safe your life. He had beautiful eyes and a smooth body. He bred this on. I always liked him, but not as a competitive horse under saddle. Now, one can breed to combine the good points of each individual and come out with something very good. But it also can go the other way. So it is trial and error ALWAYS.
tHERE ARE PLENTY OF aRABIANS AROUND, VERY GOOD FOR CHILDREN or seniors who just want to have a nice sunday afternoon ride around the block. Why not.
But to compete internationally against the best I would take Morafic anyday and possibly leave the rest hung up in the clouds of dust his hind hoofs throw into their faces by not even exausting himself..
One of the Ansata stlalion I always admired who had both, beauty and athletics was Ansata El Sherif. another one now is Ansata Iemhotep and the influence of Prince Fa Moniete appears to be obvious in a delightful way.
So each to its own, some want a lot of horse under their seat, others just a kitten with one gear or a leaping Lui.
Nothing wrong with that at all.
Have a nice day
Hansi.
Yes Morafix was a lion, had so much regality, and yet was as gentle and honest asa horse can be. I have a video when Tom McNair played with him, it is delightful.
There also is a difference of riding ahorse which can do just enough to get around the corner, has extreme limits, versa one which can go all the way. the latter was Morafic and all his children, daughters and sons and they bred this on as well.
This is never to slight Ibn Halima, but for sure not a horse you would take to ride over and through anything to safe your life. He had beautiful eyes and a smooth body. He bred this on. I always liked him, but not as a competitive horse under saddle. Now, one can breed to combine the good points of each individual and come out with something very good. But it also can go the other way. So it is trial and error ALWAYS.
tHERE ARE PLENTY OF aRABIANS AROUND, VERY GOOD FOR CHILDREN or seniors who just want to have a nice sunday afternoon ride around the block. Why not.
But to compete internationally against the best I would take Morafic anyday and possibly leave the rest hung up in the clouds of dust his hind hoofs throw into their faces by not even exausting himself..
One of the Ansata stlalion I always admired who had both, beauty and athletics was Ansata El Sherif. another one now is Ansata Iemhotep and the influence of Prince Fa Moniete appears to be obvious in a delightful way.
So each to its own, some want a lot of horse under their seat, others just a kitten with one gear or a leaping Lui.
Nothing wrong with that at all.
Have a nice day
Hansi.
Dear Sand'dollar and others
Whilst I know Ibn Halima and Morafic only from old video's and photographs unfortunately, I really don't think that it should be controversial to state that they were very different horses Chalk and cheese if you like . That both were incredably significant sires is beyond question To prefer the look of one doesn't in any way (in my view at least) show disrespect for the other 
My own preference between the two as horses would be for Morafic, but I do have an Ibn Halima granddaugter, just like I have a Morafic grandaughter and I prize them both equally 
As for temperament, I happen to like horses that are full of self confidence and awareness with some fire in their bellies but NOT in the least bit aggressive to either humans or other horses. My horses know this and react accordingly to me personally. My stallion is a lion full of fire and brimstone when being handled by me and anyone watching may well conclude that he is a "nutcase" but when handled by a ten year old girl or anyone else he is as quiet as a mouse, gentle as a lamb and a real pussycat! He knows I love the "snort and blow" and is quite happy to indulge me. By the way he doesn't carry the blood of either Ibn Halima or Morafic so his temperament doesn't come from either of them
We are each entitled to our likes and dislikes but should always respect the rights of others to disagree with our own personal views. No one has a monopoly on the truth and with horses as with much of life there are so many shades of grey, that what is a self evident truth for one, can be equally false for another
Best wishes and no disrespect intended to man or beast!
Mike
Whilst I know Ibn Halima and Morafic only from old video's and photographs unfortunately, I really don't think that it should be controversial to state that they were very different horses
Chalk and cheese if you like . That both were incredably significant sires is beyond question To prefer the look of one doesn't in any way (in my view at least) show disrespect for the other My own preference between the two as horses would be for Morafic, but I do have an Ibn Halima granddaugter, just like I have a Morafic grandaughter and I prize them both equally As for temperament, I happen to like horses that are full of self confidence and awareness with some fire in their bellies but NOT in the least bit aggressive to either humans or other horses. My horses know this and react accordingly to me personally. My stallion is a lion full of fire and brimstone when being handled by me and anyone watching may well conclude that he is a "nutcase" but when handled by a ten year old girl or anyone else he is as quiet as a mouse, gentle as a lamb and a real pussycat!
He knows I love the "snort and blow" and is quite happy to indulge me. By the way he doesn't carry the blood of either Ibn Halima or Morafic so his temperament doesn't come from either of them We are each entitled to our likes and dislikes but should always respect the rights of others to disagree with our own personal views.
No one has a monopoly on the truth and with horses as with much of life there are so many shades of grey, that what is a self evident truth for one, can be equally false for another Best wishes and no disrespect intended to man or beast!
Mike
Though obviously different in disposition and body structure, Ansata Ibn Halima and Morafic both have something in common. They are the cornerstones of breeding programs around the world. Okay both looked different, both headed very different breeding operations but as always there is something for everyone. Some like the softer expression of Ansata Ibn Halima while others are drawn to Morafic's commanding presence. I don't think we must install a war between the fans of those two stallions. Think positive and try to find the positive aspects of each of these two individuals.
What do you think they have contributed to their offspring? Morafic's virtues? Ansata Ibn Halima's virtues?
What do you think they have contributed to their offspring? Morafic's virtues? Ansata Ibn Halima's virtues?
Felix,
Is it really necessary for Boo to justify the feelings that El Hilal was the greatest? Every person has a right to their opinion. And if I was Boo I probably wouldn't post a reply knowing that you are going to jump down my throat the minute I post a reply. You already explained in an earlier post why YOU didn't think that El Hilal was the "greatest" horse, you have made your point! I know that you may have seen some of the greats over the years and have been able to evaluate these horses in person but the "new" breeders in the industry have not had the priviledge! All we(the newer breeders) can go off of is the photographs that have been saved and the information that has been passed on by people such as yourself. To tell you the truth, most all I have ever seen is the highly promoted El Hilal get that were of good quality. I hadn't seen a LOT of talk about the poor quality of El Hilal as a sire or the things that you have brought up but that shows that I have so much more to learn about the Arabian horse. Just remember, each of us has a right to our own opinion on things and it doesn't hurt us to express those opinions in a civil/non-offensive manner.
Is it really necessary for Boo to justify the feelings that El Hilal was the greatest? Every person has a right to their opinion. And if I was Boo I probably wouldn't post a reply knowing that you are going to jump down my throat the minute I post a reply. You already explained in an earlier post why YOU didn't think that El Hilal was the "greatest" horse, you have made your point! I know that you may have seen some of the greats over the years and have been able to evaluate these horses in person but the "new" breeders in the industry have not had the priviledge! All we(the newer breeders) can go off of is the photographs that have been saved and the information that has been passed on by people such as yourself. To tell you the truth, most all I have ever seen is the highly promoted El Hilal get that were of good quality. I hadn't seen a LOT of talk about the poor quality of El Hilal as a sire or the things that you have brought up but that shows that I have so much more to learn about the Arabian horse. Just remember, each of us has a right to our own opinion on things and it doesn't hurt us to express those opinions in a civil/non-offensive manner.
I certainly don't jump down your throat. What I want to know from Boo is why she/he thinks El Hilal is the greatest. It's that simple. I have shared my view so I had hoped she/he would share her thoughts with me. Isn't such a Forum for these discussions? Perhaps Boo knew El Hilal personally and shared some lasting moments with him and from this point of view Boo thinks he is the greatest?! I don't know. Or Boo bred some mares to him and he sired the most beautiful foals which they ever produced?! Who knows? Then it would be correct for Boo to label him the "greatest" for her. But still I believe everyone has to accept that promotion isn't everything and that some people look BEHIND the curtains. Legens are made two ways. 1. The horse is a classic and his qualities are there generations to come. 2. The owner of a horse spend a fortune for promotion.
I agree with you many breeders of today didn't see the great or promoted horses of yesterday. But isn't it then a MUST to be honest with them and describe the horses of the past as they really WERE not like their breeders/owners wished they were? Just my thoughts. In Germany it's not a sacrileg to ask for the good or bad points of horses of the past like Ghazal, Kaisoon, Hadban Enzahi or Gharib to name just a few. Even in magazines they were decribed point by point. Not to harm them or their past owners but to enlighten the "new" people and those who want to learn of the past. It's important to know which traits were passed on by which horse. But today every horse of the past was excellent, had long clear legs, a huge eye, a high-set neck, upright bearing and marvellous trot. What can I learn from such stupid descriptions?
What I want to know from Boo is why she/he thinks El Hilal is the greatest. It's that simple. I have shared my view so I had hoped she/he would share her thoughts with me. Isn't such a Forum for these discussions? Perhaps Boo knew El Hilal personally and shared some lasting moments with him and from this point of view Boo thinks he is the greatest?! I don't know. Or Boo bred some mares to him and he sired the most beautiful foals which they ever produced?! Who knows? Then it would be correct for Boo to label him the "greatest" for her. But still I believe everyone has to accept that promotion isn't everything and that some people look BEHIND the curtains. Legens are made two ways. 1. The horse is a classic and his qualities are there generations to come. 2. The owner of a horse spend a fortune for promotion. I agree with you many breeders of today didn't see the great or promoted horses of yesterday. But isn't it then a MUST to be honest with them and describe the horses of the past as they really WERE not like their breeders/owners wished they were? Just my thoughts. In Germany it's not a sacrileg to ask for the good or bad points of horses of the past like Ghazal, Kaisoon, Hadban Enzahi or Gharib to name just a few. Even in magazines they were decribed point by point. Not to harm them or their past owners but to enlighten the "new" people and those who want to learn of the past. It's important to know which traits were passed on by which horse. But today every horse of the past was excellent, had long clear legs, a huge eye, a high-set neck, upright bearing and marvellous trot. What can I learn from such stupid descriptions?
Were the three U.S. Top Tens awarded to El Hilal out of pity?
When Sheila Varian purchased El Hilal as youngster did she say "Oh my what a wonderful group of foals - I'll take that crappy looking one"?
When he was the leading Egyptian sire of National Champions was it because of promotion or was there perhaps a little quality on the line?
Did the Lasma Five Star designation just happen?
The record speaks for itself.
When Sheila Varian purchased El Hilal as youngster did she say "Oh my what a wonderful group of foals - I'll take that crappy looking one"?
When he was the leading Egyptian sire of National Champions was it because of promotion or was there perhaps a little quality on the line?
Did the Lasma Five Star designation just happen?
The record speaks for itself.
Dear Boo,
firstly I like El Hilal. He apperaed in the pedigree of some horses I like. He passed on some good traits and a lot of bad. Anyway, he has his share as a sire of champion horses. But then he sired waggons of them. Don't get me wrong but I find it more impressive to have a sire with a few but quality foals that make a contribution, like *El Mareekh in the US.
In the haydays of breeding in the States there were many "leading sires" because many "breeders" of that time bred every single mare to stallions that were promoted at the National level. So these stallions got their share of mares and there were even National champion mares. Well, out of 30 to 40 foals a year I guess every stallion is able to sire some champions, don't you think? Remember that many people were in horsebreeding for tax reasons - the more horses they produced the better. Why do you think stallions like Bask, *Ibn Moniet El Nefous, The Egyptian Prince, Moniet El Sharaf, *Tuhotmos or El Hilal sired that much foals? The were promoted by people that were in the business to make money. This record also speaks for itself.
And yessssss, the Lasma Five Star designation just happened - it just happened when the owners were willing to pay the right price.
And BTW, nobody said El Hilal was crappy looking!
firstly I like El Hilal. He apperaed in the pedigree of some horses I like. He passed on some good traits and a lot of bad. Anyway, he has his share as a sire of champion horses. But then he sired waggons of them. Don't get me wrong but I find it more impressive to have a sire with a few but quality foals that make a contribution, like *El Mareekh in the US.
In the haydays of breeding in the States there were many "leading sires" because many "breeders" of that time bred every single mare to stallions that were promoted at the National level. So these stallions got their share of mares and there were even National champion mares. Well, out of 30 to 40 foals a year I guess every stallion is able to sire some champions, don't you think? Remember that many people were in horsebreeding for tax reasons - the more horses they produced the better. Why do you think stallions like Bask, *Ibn Moniet El Nefous, The Egyptian Prince, Moniet El Sharaf, *Tuhotmos or El Hilal sired that much foals? The were promoted by people that were in the business to make money. This record also speaks for itself.
And yessssss, the Lasma Five Star designation just happened - it just happened when the owners were willing to pay the right price.
And BTW, nobody said El Hilal was crappy looking!
Good morning Mareike.
I dont see a war, and you are correct in what you are saying. Both stallions bought along attributes treasured by many. It was really only discussed the differences between the two Nazeer Sons, which are quiet high.
We also need to remember that those were the first
Se Stallions, after Babson, Imported and promoted strongly. Tom McNair trained Ibn Halima and showed him
because Judi and Don were most of the time out of the country. The honor for breeding both goes to the EAO.
And at the end we must always remember what incredible influence the "Nazeer Children" made in the entire SE breeding programs. Germany was also fortunate to have had Hadban Enzahi ,Kaisoon and Ghazal,
Canada with Serenity Ibn Nazeer, and Russia with Aswan. Each one of these stallions contributed a great deal, which is evident. the further we get away from the "Nazeer" blood, the further we get away from that immense frontend, which in Particular Morafic put on.
But we must also not forget which bloodlines they serviced, and here we simply cant overlook Antar, Mashhour, Sameh and Hamdan, etc. In most cases these crosses were excellent.
But we must also never overlook many others bred by and imported from the EAO, and basically all SE's ,except one,
originated from the RAS/EAO. And of course the Babsons through Prince Mohamed Ali.
Have a nice day
Hansi
I dont see a war, and you are correct in what you are saying. Both stallions bought along attributes treasured by many. It was really only discussed the differences between the two Nazeer Sons, which are quiet high.
We also need to remember that those were the first
Se Stallions, after Babson, Imported and promoted strongly. Tom McNair trained Ibn Halima and showed him
because Judi and Don were most of the time out of the country. The honor for breeding both goes to the EAO.
And at the end we must always remember what incredible influence the "Nazeer Children" made in the entire SE breeding programs. Germany was also fortunate to have had Hadban Enzahi ,Kaisoon and Ghazal,
Canada with Serenity Ibn Nazeer, and Russia with Aswan. Each one of these stallions contributed a great deal, which is evident. the further we get away from the "Nazeer" blood, the further we get away from that immense frontend, which in Particular Morafic put on.
But we must also not forget which bloodlines they serviced, and here we simply cant overlook Antar, Mashhour, Sameh and Hamdan, etc. In most cases these crosses were excellent.
But we must also never overlook many others bred by and imported from the EAO, and basically all SE's ,except one,
originated from the RAS/EAO. And of course the Babsons through Prince Mohamed Ali.
Have a nice day
Hansi
Dear Boo,
I'm guessing you are either European or new to Arabian horses, as bringing Ms. Varian into the El Hilal conversation was about the worst move one could make on proving El Hilal's credibility. Varian Arabians owned him for a grand total of 26 months and sold him as quickly as they could. They didn't even wait to see the minuscule foal crop they had by him. When I interviewed Ms. Varian many years ago, El Hilal came up in conversation as I was naturally curious about his swift departure from their breeding program. I can't remember the wording verbatim, but on top of his extremely poor, shaley hooves (meaning they crumbled), his disposition was far less then what they would ever want to introduce or breed on in their breeding program.
This is not to say El Hilal didn't sire some nice foals. However, he was bred to some EXTREMELY nice Crabbet bred mares to produce these nice foals. The Paleleks' had some stunning Rakafix (*Serafix) bred mares as well as Virginia Belle, who's dam was a maternal sister to Bint Sahara and one of the leading matrons of our breed. What these mares added to El Hilal were length of leg, athletic ability, long - elegant - high set on necks and dispositions. Yes, El Hilal added some type to their heads and shortened backs but he also usually dropped the neck set down on these mares by several inches and took off any athletic ability they had. Very few El Hilal foals, in relation to the large number he sired, were shown at performance.
The Lasma Five Star Stallion designation was discussed above. I just pulled out my 'Star Stallions' program from 1985 and several of the five star stallions listed made diddley squat as far as contributing as breeding horses. Money spoke volumes in the Star Stallions nominations.
The record does speak for itself. El Hilal had superbly conformed and bred mares that he covered and a very large promotional vehicle behind him during his day. El Hilal and most of this nationals winning foals were also superbly trained and handled by Ron Palelek, which didn't hurt their chances of winning. This is not to say he didn't sire some nice foals, but move forward to the year 2003. How many of these foals and their foals are being actively sought today as breeding/show/riding animals? That speaks for itself.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
I'm guessing you are either European or new to Arabian horses, as bringing Ms. Varian into the El Hilal conversation was about the worst move one could make on proving El Hilal's credibility. Varian Arabians owned him for a grand total of 26 months and sold him as quickly as they could. They didn't even wait to see the minuscule foal crop they had by him. When I interviewed Ms. Varian many years ago, El Hilal came up in conversation as I was naturally curious about his swift departure from their breeding program. I can't remember the wording verbatim, but on top of his extremely poor, shaley hooves (meaning they crumbled), his disposition was far less then what they would ever want to introduce or breed on in their breeding program.
This is not to say El Hilal didn't sire some nice foals. However, he was bred to some EXTREMELY nice Crabbet bred mares to produce these nice foals. The Paleleks' had some stunning Rakafix (*Serafix) bred mares as well as Virginia Belle, who's dam was a maternal sister to Bint Sahara and one of the leading matrons of our breed. What these mares added to El Hilal were length of leg, athletic ability, long - elegant - high set on necks and dispositions. Yes, El Hilal added some type to their heads and shortened backs but he also usually dropped the neck set down on these mares by several inches and took off any athletic ability they had. Very few El Hilal foals, in relation to the large number he sired, were shown at performance.
The Lasma Five Star Stallion designation was discussed above. I just pulled out my 'Star Stallions' program from 1985 and several of the five star stallions listed made diddley squat as far as contributing as breeding horses. Money spoke volumes in the Star Stallions nominations.
The record does speak for itself. El Hilal had superbly conformed and bred mares that he covered and a very large promotional vehicle behind him during his day. El Hilal and most of this nationals winning foals were also superbly trained and handled by Ron Palelek, which didn't hurt their chances of winning. This is not to say he didn't sire some nice foals, but move forward to the year 2003. How many of these foals and their foals are being actively sought today as breeding/show/riding animals? That speaks for itself.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
Howdy,
I need to follow up that the "European" designation was in NO way meant as disrespectful or derogatory to the great European breeders that post here. It was more a matter of geography. I happen to live within a 3 hour drive from where El Hilal stood most of his breeding career and was/am probably far more familiar with what he sired here..... Just as the European posters are imminently more familiar with the bloodlines heavily used and promoted in Europe.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
I need to follow up that the "European" designation was in NO way meant as disrespectful or derogatory to the great European breeders that post here. It was more a matter of geography. I happen to live within a 3 hour drive from where El Hilal stood most of his breeding career and was/am probably far more familiar with what he sired here..... Just as the European posters are imminently more familiar with the bloodlines heavily used and promoted in Europe.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
When I first got into Egyptians, the Glennloch horses caught my eye. I love the athletic look and ability that is built into them. The Glennloch horses proved themselves under saddle in so many different endeavors, everything from Endurance to Racing to Park. This a trait that is of utmost importance to me. My Glennloch bred mare is my foundation mare and has produced one outstanding foal after another: big, typey, correct with excellent legs and tremendous movement. I wish I had five or six Glennloch bred mares.
My opinion on El Hilal, since everyone seems to adding one. Beautiful, correct, absolutely stunning horse, but the small size is VERY difficult to overcome. Three generations later it can be difficult to breed an El Hilal horse taller than 14.1. To many that doesn't matter. To me, I want them 14.3 or more and able to compete against any breed, any where, any time. I don't want my horses rejected because a rider feels silly with his feet hanging down to the horse's knees. I am tired of people describing our horses as pretty ponies. My opinion only.
Pat
My opinion on El Hilal, since everyone seems to adding one. Beautiful, correct, absolutely stunning horse, but the small size is VERY difficult to overcome. Three generations later it can be difficult to breed an El Hilal horse taller than 14.1. To many that doesn't matter. To me, I want them 14.3 or more and able to compete against any breed, any where, any time. I don't want my horses rejected because a rider feels silly with his feet hanging down to the horse's knees. I am tired of people describing our horses as pretty ponies. My opinion only.
Pat
((((How many of these foals and their foals are being actively sought today as breeding/show/riding animals?}}}}}
From where/whom is today's actively sought horse descended???. That is a very simple question with a very simple answer.
From actively and aggressively promoted horses. By people with the wherewithall to do that. Thus it is always the rich who dictate these fads. The rest of us always hurry to catch up.
That, however, is the problem. The tastes are fickle and what is popular today will not be popular tomorrow. The Public is continually bombarded with new and bigger is better, as we are taught since birth and that Philosophy enters every facet of American life. That is not to say it is bad, it is just pervasive. The Arabian horse is just as susceptible to that philosophy. What was good in 1900, 1930 1958, and any other date is not good enough today. Why, one could ask? Because we are as a Nation, conditioned to want newer and better.
For me 14.1 to 15.2 is more than adequate for an Arab. If I want bigger there are Breeds in existence right now that will save me the labor to produce an Arab that is 17 hands, can pace, trot, look like and andalusian, saddlebred, Friesian and on and on. It has been done before so why not leave the Arab alone. Let them look like an Arab, to behave like an Arab, to do what they do best...be a Companion animal, a riding horse and a lifelong friend. Ah ,but why would anyone want a lifelong friend, when tomorrow he will be obsolete????
Just some food for thought.
JAL
From where/whom is today's actively sought horse descended???. That is a very simple question with a very simple answer.
From actively and aggressively promoted horses. By people with the wherewithall to do that. Thus it is always the rich who dictate these fads. The rest of us always hurry to catch up.
That, however, is the problem. The tastes are fickle and what is popular today will not be popular tomorrow. The Public is continually bombarded with new and bigger is better, as we are taught since birth and that Philosophy enters every facet of American life. That is not to say it is bad, it is just pervasive. The Arabian horse is just as susceptible to that philosophy. What was good in 1900, 1930 1958, and any other date is not good enough today. Why, one could ask? Because we are as a Nation, conditioned to want newer and better.
For me 14.1 to 15.2 is more than adequate for an Arab. If I want bigger there are Breeds in existence right now that will save me the labor to produce an Arab that is 17 hands, can pace, trot, look like and andalusian, saddlebred, Friesian and on and on. It has been done before so why not leave the Arab alone. Let them look like an Arab, to behave like an Arab, to do what they do best...be a Companion animal, a riding horse and a lifelong friend. Ah ,but why would anyone want a lifelong friend, when tomorrow he will be obsolete????
Just some food for thought.
JAL
[I]I don't wanna seem to be "nice" with everyone...
I think you Boo are attacking Felix for what he said... but he only gave his opinion, he hasn't been aggressive or criticizing... But on the other hand, I understand that she can find him so "perfect", and everyone can have his own "Coup de Coeur" / favourite, being unable to tell simply: WHY...
And I personnaly got into arabians when I was 13 (quite yng! but no close family or friends into horses...) and the first ones who touched me are still strongly placed into my heart (as I ain't that old, those were Nadir 1 (by Neman), Piruet (Probat), Poletat ("french" son of Etat) and Padisha (Padrons son, in France either)). I can't tell why, but they were the ones who "opened myself" to the Arabians, to all the others. So thanks to them, I'm interested in many horses, but I'll always have a little strange emotion when talking about the first.
So OK Boo you like El Hilal so much and outta limits but it's not offensive when Felix simply ask you why; if I ain't wrong he only wants to understand (even maybe to see the little thing the detail that made you in love and that he can't find or ... well, I think "everyone has his preferences" but why not to share it??? You can just try to explain, make us see what you mean, give us that luck to understand... even if it's a blurred explaination, try, ... I like to read those terms people use to describe the horses they love -I can tell I'm mad about Hadidi's ears (seems stupid? yes, ears doesn't make the stallion), I find him wonderfull for it -he is one of those first horses of "my" arabian history (through books, and magazines)- but I can tell he has strange knees. But "gorgeous" ears...
Well I know it doesn't have its place in that topic, but I needed to tell it...
Ness
I think you Boo are attacking Felix for what he said... but he only gave his opinion, he hasn't been aggressive or criticizing... But on the other hand, I understand that she can find him so "perfect", and everyone can have his own "Coup de Coeur" / favourite, being unable to tell simply: WHY...
And I personnaly got into arabians when I was 13 (quite yng! but no close family or friends into horses...) and the first ones who touched me are still strongly placed into my heart (as I ain't that old, those were Nadir 1 (by Neman), Piruet (Probat), Poletat ("french" son of Etat) and Padisha (Padrons son, in France either)). I can't tell why, but they were the ones who "opened myself" to the Arabians, to all the others. So thanks to them, I'm interested in many horses, but I'll always have a little strange emotion when talking about the first.
So OK Boo you like El Hilal so much and outta limits but it's not offensive when Felix simply ask you why; if I ain't wrong he only wants to understand (even maybe to see the little thing the detail that made you in love and that he can't find or ... well, I think "everyone has his preferences" but why not to share it??? You can just try to explain, make us see what you mean, give us that luck to understand... even if it's a blurred explaination, try, ... I like to read those terms people use to describe the horses they love -I can tell I'm mad about Hadidi's ears (seems stupid? yes, ears doesn't make the stallion), I find him wonderfull for it -he is one of those first horses of "my" arabian history (through books, and magazines)- but I can tell he has strange knees. But "gorgeous" ears...
Well I know it doesn't have its place in that topic, but I needed to tell it...
Ness
Dahmah Shahwaniah (Ansata Ibn Halima x Bint Maisa El Saghira) is one example of the Ansata/Gleannloch cross that worked out okay. Among her foals are AK Shah Moniet (by Ibn Moniet El Nefous), sire of AK Munifeh (dam of Serenity's AK Shah Munifeh by Prince Fa Moniet), Ibn Dahmahn (Ibn Hafiza x Dahmah Shahwaniah), he sired Star Bint Hafiza, the dam of Makhnificent KA (by Makhsous), and AK Nawaal (The Egyptian Prince x Dahmah Shahwaniah) - exported to Argentina and then Germany (check out her Portrait for more). Now, looking at the family descending from Dahmah, you can see how her line has been blended very successfully with the Morafic line.
Photo: Johnny Johnston
This photo is of Dahmah Shahwaniah is from AK Nawaal's Portrait.
Another horse who I really like (from photos) is AK El Sennari (Ibn Moniet El Nefous x Il Bint Khedena by Ansata Ibn Halima) - he is in Egypt with Albadeia. His pedigree is a combination of Morafic, Ansata Ibn Halima and Babson lines. His eyes are what really attract me - big, dark and soulful, however I have never seen a body shot so I don't know what his legs look like, I haven't seen many of his foals either. He traces in tail female to the Babson foundation mare Bint Serra I - a Saklawi tracing to Ghazala El Beida. There are some really nice head shots of him on the Albadeia website.
So, here are two horses whose pedigrees are a combination of either Gleannloch/Ansata lines or Morafic/Ansata Ibn Halima lines. In these two individuals I think these lines combined well and produced something exceptional.
Just my thoughts
Kaely
Photo: Johnny Johnston
This photo is of Dahmah Shahwaniah is from AK Nawaal's Portrait.
Another horse who I really like (from photos) is AK El Sennari (Ibn Moniet El Nefous x Il Bint Khedena by Ansata Ibn Halima) - he is in Egypt with Albadeia. His pedigree is a combination of Morafic, Ansata Ibn Halima and Babson lines. His eyes are what really attract me - big, dark and soulful, however I have never seen a body shot so I don't know what his legs look like, I haven't seen many of his foals either. He traces in tail female to the Babson foundation mare Bint Serra I - a Saklawi tracing to Ghazala El Beida. There are some really nice head shots of him on the Albadeia website.
So, here are two horses whose pedigrees are a combination of either Gleannloch/Ansata lines or Morafic/Ansata Ibn Halima lines. In these two individuals I think these lines combined well and produced something exceptional.
Just my thoughts
Kaely
HI Kaely
I agree with you. As usual not all lines match with each other and it is trial and error and the ones you mentioned indeed matched well. Dahmah Shahwaniyah took little from Ibn Halima, but most all from her dam Bint Maisa El Saghira. I knew both quite well. She mated well with any stallion she was covered with. Just an exceptional broodmare I think. I can not speak of AK El Sennari, have not seen him nor his children. According to my records he went to England in 1988. Lisa Lacy would be able to give details on this.
Have a nice day
Hansi
I agree with you. As usual not all lines match with each other and it is trial and error and the ones you mentioned indeed matched well. Dahmah Shahwaniyah took little from Ibn Halima, but most all from her dam Bint Maisa El Saghira. I knew both quite well. She mated well with any stallion she was covered with. Just an exceptional broodmare I think. I can not speak of AK El Sennari, have not seen him nor his children. According to my records he went to England in 1988. Lisa Lacy would be able to give details on this.
Have a nice day
Hansi
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 19 2003, 03:13 PM)
But we must also never overlook many others bred by and imported from the EAO, and basically all SE's ,except one,
originated from the RAS/EAO. And of course the Babsons through Prince Mohamed Ali.
Have a nice day
Hansi
originated from the RAS/EAO. And of course the Babsons through Prince Mohamed Ali.
Have a nice day
Hansi
I'm sorry but this is not the accurate account. The horses exported from Egypt to foreign countries did not originate even the majority with the EAO or RAS. They were brought into Egypt from the desert by many varieties of persons including the Turks and the Blunts of England, by members of Egypt's Royal family as well as many small breeders and individuals now unknown, including the Bedu themselves. Many of these early bloodlines were eventually included for the foundations of the RAS and EAO but this is not the Egyptian origins. They also came from the Crabbet stud in England. Nazeer himself is the product of Crabbet imports to Egypt in the 1920s. The horses exported by Mr. Brown to America were also from a private breeder directly, not from the RAS. The RAS and the EAO acted as the intermediary and authority in exportations which provided the certified pedigrees. You can not draw a line around the EAO or the RAS as the only or first source of Egyptian Arabians. It is a collection which became well established and grew.
Since AK El Sennari, has been mentioned This a picture of my AK El Sennari son out of an Ansata mare.
This a picture of my AK El Sennari son out of an Ansata mare.
HI Nejdy
Yes, in this regard you are absolutely correct. I was referring to direct importations from the EAO/Albadeia,Hamdan Stables, etc and of course these
lines go back exactly as you stated.
Indeed they all had to start in the Desert at some time.
I am sorry if my statement was misleading or misunderstood the way I said it..
Have a real nice day
Hansi
Yes, in this regard you are absolutely correct. I was referring to direct importations from the EAO/Albadeia,Hamdan Stables, etc and of course these
lines go back exactly as you stated.
Indeed they all had to start in the Desert at some time.
I am sorry if my statement was misleading or misunderstood the way I said it..
Have a real nice day
Hansi
QUOTE (Ness @ Apr 20 2003, 05:09 PM)
[I]I don't wanna seem to be "nice" with everyone...
I think you Boo are attacking Felix for what he said... but he only gave his opinion, he hasn't been aggressive or criticizing... But on the other hand, I understand that she can find him so "perfect", and everyone can have his own "Coup de Coeur" / favourite, being unable to tell simply: WHY...
And I personnaly got into arabians when I was 13 (quite yng! but no close family or friends into horses...) and the first ones who touched me are still strongly placed into my heart (as I ain't that old, those were Nadir 1 (by Neman), Piruet (Probat), Poletat ("french" son of Etat) and Padisha (Padrons son, in France either)). I can't tell why, but they were the ones who "opened myself" to the Arabians, to all the others. So thanks to them, I'm interested in many horses, but I'll always have a little strange emotion when talking about the first.
So OK Boo you like El Hilal so much and outta limits but it's not offensive when Felix simply ask you why; if I ain't wrong he only wants to understand (even maybe to see the little thing the detail that made you in love and that he can't find or ... well, I think "everyone has his preferences" but why not to share it??? You can just try to explain, make us see what you mean, give us that luck to understand... even if it's a blurred explaination, try, ... I like to read those terms people use to describe the horses they love -I can tell I'm mad about Hadidi's ears (seems stupid? yes, ears doesn't make the stallion), I find him wonderfull for it -he is one of those first horses of "my" arabian history (through books, and magazines)- but I can tell he has strange knees. But "gorgeous" ears...
Well I know it doesn't have its place in that topic, but I needed to tell it...
Ness
I think you Boo are attacking Felix for what he said... but he only gave his opinion, he hasn't been aggressive or criticizing... But on the other hand, I understand that she can find him so "perfect", and everyone can have his own "Coup de Coeur" / favourite, being unable to tell simply: WHY...
And I personnaly got into arabians when I was 13 (quite yng! but no close family or friends into horses...) and the first ones who touched me are still strongly placed into my heart (as I ain't that old, those were Nadir 1 (by Neman), Piruet (Probat), Poletat ("french" son of Etat) and Padisha (Padrons son, in France either)). I can't tell why, but they were the ones who "opened myself" to the Arabians, to all the others. So thanks to them, I'm interested in many horses, but I'll always have a little strange emotion when talking about the first.
So OK Boo you like El Hilal so much and outta limits but it's not offensive when Felix simply ask you why; if I ain't wrong he only wants to understand (even maybe to see the little thing the detail that made you in love and that he can't find or ... well, I think "everyone has his preferences" but why not to share it??? You can just try to explain, make us see what you mean, give us that luck to understand... even if it's a blurred explaination, try, ... I like to read those terms people use to describe the horses they love -I can tell I'm mad about Hadidi's ears (seems stupid? yes, ears doesn't make the stallion), I find him wonderfull for it -he is one of those first horses of "my" arabian history (through books, and magazines)- but I can tell he has strange knees. But "gorgeous" ears...
Well I know it doesn't have its place in that topic, but I needed to tell it...
Ness
I have heard the old wheeze that El Hilal would have been a nothing horse if it was not for Ron Palelek and his big Crabbet bred mares a 100 times. The fact is Ron was not in such dire straits that he needed any old horse to cross his mares with. Vantage Point also stood *Meczet and Jora Honey Ku and could have utlized these stallions with the big Crabbet mares.
The record does speak for itself in the three U.S. top ten awards earned by El Hilal. Of course the horse was turned out well and was handled by a wizard showman but why on earth would that wizard showman take a second rate horse to the ring when he could have chosen from a thousand others?
Did El Hilal do well in performance? Of course not and neither has any straight Egyptian in the recent history of the breed. The old examples of *Bint Maisa el Saghira and *Sakr really don't wash as they would not be competitve in a Class "A" show these days.
The first time I met El Hilal I was surprised at his small size. However, if you were to bring a Bedouin familiar with desert horses to a barn with El Hilal type horses and big Padron Pysche horses I would bet money the Arab would pick the El Hilal type as his mount.
The simple fact is a lot of people base their opinion on a horse based on who owns the horse.
El Sennari is in Egypt now, owned by Dr. Nasr Marei and Dr. Raheem, I believe. He is standing at Albadeia.
Dr. Marei saw him in Jordan a few years ago at Princess Zein's place and liked him very much.
Dr. Marei saw him in Jordan a few years ago at Princess Zein's place and liked him very much.
Good morning everybody
If AK El Sennari is standing with Albadeia, he had to be a good horse, otherwise Nasr would not even consider him.
Albadeia never bred politically, in my opinion. The stallion's pedigree is champion studded with athletic and beautiful ancestors. He was bred by Bentwood, and Bentwood indeed bred hundreds of excellent SE's. Many of their broodmares came from Gleannloch and some from the Babson lines, et. All excellent mares in my opinion.
Have a nice day
hansi
If AK El Sennari is standing with Albadeia, he had to be a good horse, otherwise Nasr would not even consider him.
Albadeia never bred politically, in my opinion. The stallion's pedigree is champion studded with athletic and beautiful ancestors. He was bred by Bentwood, and Bentwood indeed bred hundreds of excellent SE's. Many of their broodmares came from Gleannloch and some from the Babson lines, et. All excellent mares in my opinion.
Have a nice day
hansi
Can you explain further what you mean by the term "politically-bred"?
AK El Sennari was on display at a German show many years ago and I have to agree about his quality. In type he reminded me on Ansata Ibn Halima including the colour but in structure of body and his movement he was the perfect blend of the Gleannloch horse with Ibn Moniet El Nefous. I often wondered where he has ended up. Good to know he is in capable and caring hands again.
Very simple, I scratch your back and you scratch mine
Hansi
Hansi
politically-bred: bred to follow a fad or the flavor of the month. albadeia (sp) breeds true to form, type, movement, etc arabians, regardless of what is in vogue or what "trainers" & "Judges" want to see, like many folks do here in the states.
FELIX SAID:
Ansata Ibn Halima wasn't the born athlete and bred this on to further generation. Ansata Ibn Halima was the pretty one, the one with the smooth body but not the ultimate athlete that could stand the test of the desert
Again, I have to disagree. *Ansata Ibn Halima++ won countless championships in performance, including a Regional Championship in Park. This Regional Championship was at a time in US Showing History when the Polish and Polish-cross horses were devouring any Park and English Pleasure competitions. Look at the symbols after his name…He is a Legion of Merit winner, from the points he won in BOTH halter AND performance. I have posted a Championship picture of *Ansata Ibn Halima, a championship that he won under saddle.
No horse is a “born athlete”. A horse is “made” through his training. Any horse can be improved through proper training. Gaits can be improved as a horse’s self-carriage improves over time, as he learns to use his back and hind end more and not his joints. I have seen this too many times. Don’t discount any horse. With proper, patient training, a horse will surprise you. This is the "fun" in horse ownership as an active rider. To be a witness to the evolutionary process of a horse under saddle. There are many challenges but the rewards are even greater.
The other statement that I want to make is with regard to the reality of movement and the expectations that people have for movement. WHAT IS MOVEMENT? FOR WHAT PURPOSE? Are the expectations for movement, expressed here, even realistic? At what level is the horse going to be ridden? A horse that is free-moving, does not interfere and remains sound will serve most amateurs very well.
We need to assess our own capabilities realistically. It is unfair to want the brilliance of a high level competition horse if our skills, as a rider, do not match the talent of the horse!!! I may be way off here and if I am, I apologize but my impression of most people who participate on this forum are of recreational/amateur riders and not people who are competing horses on the Grand Prix circuit.
Ansata Ibn Halima wasn't the born athlete and bred this on to further generation. Ansata Ibn Halima was the pretty one, the one with the smooth body but not the ultimate athlete that could stand the test of the desert
Again, I have to disagree. *Ansata Ibn Halima++ won countless championships in performance, including a Regional Championship in Park. This Regional Championship was at a time in US Showing History when the Polish and Polish-cross horses were devouring any Park and English Pleasure competitions. Look at the symbols after his name…He is a Legion of Merit winner, from the points he won in BOTH halter AND performance. I have posted a Championship picture of *Ansata Ibn Halima, a championship that he won under saddle.
No horse is a “born athlete”. A horse is “made” through his training. Any horse can be improved through proper training. Gaits can be improved as a horse’s self-carriage improves over time, as he learns to use his back and hind end more and not his joints. I have seen this too many times. Don’t discount any horse. With proper, patient training, a horse will surprise you. This is the "fun" in horse ownership as an active rider. To be a witness to the evolutionary process of a horse under saddle. There are many challenges but the rewards are even greater.
The other statement that I want to make is with regard to the reality of movement and the expectations that people have for movement. WHAT IS MOVEMENT? FOR WHAT PURPOSE? Are the expectations for movement, expressed here, even realistic? At what level is the horse going to be ridden? A horse that is free-moving, does not interfere and remains sound will serve most amateurs very well.
We need to assess our own capabilities realistically. It is unfair to want the brilliance of a high level competition horse if our skills, as a rider, do not match the talent of the horse!!! I may be way off here and if I am, I apologize but my impression of most people who participate on this forum are of recreational/amateur riders and not people who are competing horses on the Grand Prix circuit.
And another championship photo, this time with Rita McNair in the saddle:
I don't want to discourage you or take away something from your imagination. But the fact remains there are two categories of horses and Ansata Ibn Halima certainly wasn't the athlete. Please again don't get me wrong. He was a gorgeous horse with a world-wide influence. And his influence will last or continue to grow with such wonderful horses like Al Adeed Al Shaqab or Ansata Manasseh but again, do you ever saw him move? Do you ever saw him perform under saddle? Championships mean nothing to me, put an excellent rider on an average horse and they will get their performance qualification for the Nationals.
Again, Ansata Ibn Halima is a legend but don't try to make convert him into something he simply never was. For what reason?
Again, Ansata Ibn Halima is a legend but don't try to make convert him into something he simply never was. For what reason?
Hi Fran
You are very kind in explaning "Politically"
I am a bit more direct.
to me political means, Breeders dealing with judges privately, are their friends, get favors done, and I know of one case where a renowned breeder actually told judges "to judge from the top down" and increase points for type. Now that is political to me, throwing weight around, bully, and use tactis for own motives.
Or when some breeders/owners give huge financial contributions to organizations and then in return have their horses pinned as champions. Or when organization receive "sales enquiries" the board members keep them for themselves, rather then to distribute to their members to also have a chance in marketing.
there are other reasons, to many to mention here.
Have a nice day Fran
Hansi
You are very kind in explaning "Politically"
I am a bit more direct.
to me political means, Breeders dealing with judges privately, are their friends, get favors done, and I know of one case where a renowned breeder actually told judges "to judge from the top down" and increase points for type. Now that is political to me, throwing weight around, bully, and use tactis for own motives.
Or when some breeders/owners give huge financial contributions to organizations and then in return have their horses pinned as champions. Or when organization receive "sales enquiries" the board members keep them for themselves, rather then to distribute to their members to also have a chance in marketing.
there are other reasons, to many to mention here.
Have a nice day Fran
Hansi
Hi Felix
you are correct. One of the photos shown here shows the horse totally exhausted- see the unrealistic "body sweat"
and his LOM points were earned through the Top Ten Halter class- where you get 50 points right of the bet.
Indeed, he was a lovely horse, but may be some people dont understand what athletic means, they think it can be trained on, while I think it is born on or not. I can be trained to vault, but if I am not athletic I will fall on my back each time. I might be able to run, but how fast? Exercise of course can improve a lot, but each person/horse has limits. We all do.
There are excellent athletes among the SE's- I know many,
these horses could do just about anything under saddle without falling to pieces.
When a horse is put under stress, it is then when we find out. Some breakdown in 5 furlongs- bowed tendons, windpuff etc, others have nothing left after 5 miles, yet others can go on for ever. this is what a rider finds out when riding/testing a horse. And if the conformation is not there, what have you got to compete with? If the attitude is not there, you having nothing either.
and if I were so wrong, why then do some horses lead by miles in an endurance race, others by many lenghth on the track, others being so relaxed after 50 miles like if they walked around the block, versa those coming in later. this is comparrison of which is the best horse that day.
thanks for your Post Felix and have a nice day
Hansi
you are correct. One of the photos shown here shows the horse totally exhausted- see the unrealistic "body sweat"
and his LOM points were earned through the Top Ten Halter class- where you get 50 points right of the bet.
Indeed, he was a lovely horse, but may be some people dont understand what athletic means, they think it can be trained on, while I think it is born on or not. I can be trained to vault, but if I am not athletic I will fall on my back each time. I might be able to run, but how fast? Exercise of course can improve a lot, but each person/horse has limits. We all do.
There are excellent athletes among the SE's- I know many,
these horses could do just about anything under saddle without falling to pieces.
When a horse is put under stress, it is then when we find out. Some breakdown in 5 furlongs- bowed tendons, windpuff etc, others have nothing left after 5 miles, yet others can go on for ever. this is what a rider finds out when riding/testing a horse. And if the conformation is not there, what have you got to compete with? If the attitude is not there, you having nothing either.
and if I were so wrong, why then do some horses lead by miles in an endurance race, others by many lenghth on the track, others being so relaxed after 50 miles like if they walked around the block, versa those coming in later. this is comparrison of which is the best horse that day.
thanks for your Post Felix and have a nice day
Hansi
QUOTE (RFarmArabians @ Apr 20 2003, 12:57 PM)
Dear Boo,
I'm guessing you are either European or new to Arabian horses, as bringing Ms. Varian into the El Hilal conversation was about the worst move one could make on proving El Hilal's credibility. Varian Arabians owned him for a grand total of 26 months and sold him as quickly as they could.
I'm guessing you are either European or new to Arabian horses, as bringing Ms. Varian into the El Hilal conversation was about the worst move one could make on proving El Hilal's credibility. Varian Arabians owned him for a grand total of 26 months and sold him as quickly as they could.
Boo, you have good taste. It is Ms. Varian's misfortune and Mr. Palalek's good fortune that El Hilal was slow to bloom, as is typical of his progeny. Why was he a great stallion? To start with, El Hilal was utterly dripping with Egyptian type, and he passsed it on. Small, yes, but perfectly proportioned. He was a classic Dahman type, and when bred to other Dahman types, small is in the cards. Yet when outcrossed to a stretchy type, size and supreme type is the prize. Besides being a US and Canadian Top Ten, as already mentioned, El Hilal hold the title of ALL TIME leading Egyptian sire of champions. This Varian "rejectee" sired 37 National winners. Not too disappointing, in my opinion. His daughter, RDM Maar Hala is the all time Egyptian dam of champions, and for a long time held the title of all time dam of champions of ALL Arabians. As for demand in today's show ring, has anyone heard of El Halimaar and his get? Has anyone heard of Richter? I would say a selling price of many hundreds of thousands of dollars, especially in a depressed market, is a damned good indicator of marketablity. Where have I heard the saying, "The proof is in the pudding"?
El Hilal should be of no interest to breeders who don't particularly care for huge black eyes, small tipped ears, beautiful heads, smooth compact bodies, long elegant necks, INCREDIBLE sweet dispositions AND athletic ability. Like all lines, El Hilal progeny may not nick perfectly with all other lines, but there is real magic in that blood and when used right, it creates more magic. El Hilal and Morafic were two entirely different types of horses, I don't think they can be compared. Both are very signifcant and have an important place in planned breeding, depending on taste. Personally, I'll take El Hilal.
Norah,
Since you are quoting me, I'll assume you are addressing me. If you read back through my post on El Hilal, I never said that he didn't sire nice foals. What I said was that he sired nice foals out of nice Crabbet bred mares. I'm glad you tossed out that statistic on Nationals Winners. Just out of curiosity, how many of El Hilal's get that were straight Egyptian ever won at the US or Canadian Nationals? Right off the top of my head, I'm thinking ever single one was out of a pretty decent Crabbet/CMK mare....
RDM Maar Hala is a STUNNING mare and a great producer. She is the leading straight Egyptian dam of champions. However, I'm not sure where you obtained your information that she "for a long time held the title of all time dam of champions of ALL Arabians," because that is a false statement. According to the most recent, 2002 Aristocrat Mares list by the World, she ties for 23rd place with 8 champion foals. An amazing record! However, at no time was she ever first on the list. Bint Sahara topped the list for a couple of decades, followed by *Sanacht, TW Forteyna, Carinosa, Saki and several other mares that vied off and on for the top slot. This in no way denigrates RDM Maar Hala's significance as a world class mare, it does however keep facts straight.
Back to why I responded to this post. *Morafic and *Ansata Ibn Halima both bred a significant number of Crabbet/CMK mares in their early years. Due to the fact there were not that number of straight Egyptian mares in the US at that time. Both stallions sired a notable number of nationals winners out of both Crabbet/CMK and straight Egyptian mares. Where I am going with this is out of the 63 straight Egyptian El Hilal foals born, I honestly don't see where the record shows that any of them made an impact in the Canadian or US show ring. Hansan is the only El Hilal foal, SE, that went on to win and I believe it was an Australian national championship 20 some years ago. Even though he sired a very large number of nationals winners, over all, I am still missing where El Hilal made a significant contribution to straight Egyptian breeding.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
Since you are quoting me, I'll assume you are addressing me. If you read back through my post on El Hilal, I never said that he didn't sire nice foals. What I said was that he sired nice foals out of nice Crabbet bred mares. I'm glad you tossed out that statistic on Nationals Winners. Just out of curiosity, how many of El Hilal's get that were straight Egyptian ever won at the US or Canadian Nationals? Right off the top of my head, I'm thinking ever single one was out of a pretty decent Crabbet/CMK mare....
RDM Maar Hala is a STUNNING mare and a great producer. She is the leading straight Egyptian dam of champions. However, I'm not sure where you obtained your information that she "for a long time held the title of all time dam of champions of ALL Arabians," because that is a false statement. According to the most recent, 2002 Aristocrat Mares list by the World, she ties for 23rd place with 8 champion foals. An amazing record! However, at no time was she ever first on the list. Bint Sahara topped the list for a couple of decades, followed by *Sanacht, TW Forteyna, Carinosa, Saki and several other mares that vied off and on for the top slot. This in no way denigrates RDM Maar Hala's significance as a world class mare, it does however keep facts straight.
Back to why I responded to this post. *Morafic and *Ansata Ibn Halima both bred a significant number of Crabbet/CMK mares in their early years. Due to the fact there were not that number of straight Egyptian mares in the US at that time. Both stallions sired a notable number of nationals winners out of both Crabbet/CMK and straight Egyptian mares. Where I am going with this is out of the 63 straight Egyptian El Hilal foals born, I honestly don't see where the record shows that any of them made an impact in the Canadian or US show ring. Hansan is the only El Hilal foal, SE, that went on to win and I believe it was an Australian national championship 20 some years ago. Even though he sired a very large number of nationals winners, over all, I am still missing where El Hilal made a significant contribution to straight Egyptian breeding.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
Here is a photo of AK El Sennari, I was lucky enough to see him several times when he was in the UK, he's a great representative of his breeding, and I am so glad to have found out where he is again, I've often wondered. 
AK El Sennari
You have great taste Norah.
What most people don't realize is El Hilal did not sire many SE's until later in life. The few he did sire early on were nothing short of exceptional.
I recall one beautiful SE El Hilal filly that was injured in the back of a van that was on the way to the Canadian Nationals and I believe she was to be shown in the 3 year old futurity class and out of a full sister to El Hilal. There was a lot of envy over Hilal during his life and the comments here are not surprising.
The offspring of Nafairtiti did very well when shown and I recall her foal by El Hilal at Gleanloch when she was purchased back.
Success breeds many enemies.
What most people don't realize is El Hilal did not sire many SE's until later in life. The few he did sire early on were nothing short of exceptional.
I recall one beautiful SE El Hilal filly that was injured in the back of a van that was on the way to the Canadian Nationals and I believe she was to be shown in the 3 year old futurity class and out of a full sister to El Hilal. There was a lot of envy over Hilal during his life and the comments here are not surprising.
The offspring of Nafairtiti did very well when shown and I recall her foal by El Hilal at Gleanloch when she was purchased back.
Success breeds many enemies.
QUOTE (RFarmArabians @ Apr 23 2003, 01:30 AM)
Even though he sired a very large number of nationals winners, over all, I am still missing where El Hilal made a significant contribution to straight Egyptian breeding.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
Jim,
I was addressing your comment (amongst others) which is why I quoted it. If you read back through MY post, you'll see that I never claimed you said El Hilal didn't sire nice foals. However, considering the number of champions he sired, I do think the word "nice" does seem a bit understated. And since the quality of the foals is THE measuring stick for all sires, this needs to be underscored with regard to the question which was asked by one poster, "Why would El Hilal be considered a great stallion"? I'm not sure why it matters whether the champions he sired were out of Egyptian mares, Crabbet mares, Russian mares, Polish mares or any other particular group of mares, other than it shows his reliable
consistency. If your point is that Crabbet mares are great producers, you'll get no argument from me. It does not diminish El Hilal one bit. The fact is, El Hilal was not bred to a predominant number of Egytpian mares, therefore it would be quite hard for him to sire a predominant number of Egyptian champion get. Despite that fact, I think his impact on Egyptian breeding is very impressive
I correct my statement regarding Maar Hala to read that she was the leading Egyptian dam of champions, and tied for second place in the ranks of living dams of champions of all bloodlines. The following information is from an article on Maar Hala by Mary Jane Parkinson which appeared in Arabian Horse World in 1996: Maar Hala had eight champion sons and daughters. Two of her sons have gained National wins. El Halimaar was 1983 U.S. Top Ten Colt and Prince Ibn Shaikh was 1984 U.S. and Canadian Top Ten Futurity Colt. Maar Bilahh (by El Halimaar) was 1987 U.S. Top Ten Futurity Filly, 1987 Egyptian Event Senior Champion Mare and Supreme Champion Mare and East Coast Champion mare. Then there is Abraxas Halimaar, 1994 U.S. National Reserve Champion Stallion AAOTH, 1993 U.S. Top Ten Futurity Colt, 1995 Canadian National Top Ten Stallion and 1995 Canadian National Top Ten Stallion and 1995 Egyptian Event Supreme Champion and Senior Champion Stallion. According to MJ Parkinson, "The Maar Hala grandsons and graddaughters have posted dozens of Egyptian Event, Cal-Bred Futurity, Scottsdale and Breeders Sweepstakes wins." As far as International influence is concerned, I think that will become more and more apparent in the coming years, with progeny of El Hilal being exported around the world. Besides the sale of Richter MH, the Maar Hala son Maar Ibn Amaal was sold to Mexico and a Maar Hala daughter, Maartrabbi was sold to England. This sale was done with a "foal back" stipulation. The breeding that produced that foal was to the Maxwell's "Crusader". The Maar Hala granddaughter by El Halimaar, Maardassa, went to Simeon Stud in Australia. Maar Bilahh was sold to Uri Ariely in Israel and became 1993 Israel National Champion mare. Another Maar Hala granddaughter, Royal Halipha was sold to Sheikh Nawaf Bin Nasser Al Thani of Quatar. Bint Bint Maar Hala (by El Halimaar) was exported to the Philippines. Maar Hala descendants have been exported to Italy, Germany, South Aftica, Moroacco and Canada. Again, quoting MJ Parkingson, "Among Maar Hala's distinguished descendants: Simeon Shai, 1992 Triple Crown Stallion and her great grandson (via ET Crown Prince), bred in Australia. I would say the impact of El Hilal has had a very significant impact on Egyptian breeding already, and that is just in two generations. This is one pretty-faced family with NO MARKETING PROBLEMS! We should all be so lucky.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.