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Al Ubayyan
Im not new to sE.com but I havent been here in a while.
I no longer own or breed the sE. or the Egyptian horse but why should that exclude people such as myself from coming to sites such as sE.com to discuss them in an atmosphere of respect?

I recently bought the book by Philippe Pasraskevas titled The Egyptian Alternative. Now from the title one might automatically think Mr. Paraskevas has a problem with Egyptian horses in general. That maybe he is the main problem with such a book because of its title.
What Ive found, reading this book is almost total agreement to its authors viewpoint. Mr. Paraskeva who is of greek origin but was born in Egypt puts his viewpoints in the most eloquent and respectful way as well while making many profound statements. One such statement is that once the Arabian horse left its desert homeland of Arabia it became a refugee.

I suggest if you love the Arabian breed and especially if you breed them that this is a book you will not want to miss out on.

Im wondering if anyone else here has read it and what parts of it do you or dont you agree with?

Id love to discuss The Egyptain Alternative with others here who have read the book and I guess even those who havent as well. biggrin.gif .
Al Ubayyan
Oh yea, I forgot to mention my name is Troy Patterson. Im American and have been nvolved with Arabian horses for 20 something years.
Al Ubayyan
One of the concepts Mr. Pasraskevas brings to the light of day is this...to breed horses not only by strain but to breed by bloodlines and then show those against each catagorically instead of this silly notion of breeding for the ideal Arabian.
Im paraphasing:
Breeding for the "Ideal Arabian" he says is detrimental to the whole breed becasuse it is making to many cookie cutter beauty contestants out of the breed at large. This "ideal Arabian" way of breeding is also affecting the breed because disposition is not given first and foremost consideration. If it was, we would not be seeing so many horses with heads that are so extreme, legs like broken matchsticks and most all horses that are shown looking more like Saqlawi than anything else.
I say to for that matter, in the place where we all got this idea of the "Ideal Arabian" there would of been more pages written about disposition than written about the conformation, and that "the head is the hallmark" type stuff.
If we all had read about disposition being most important as we were all jumping on that
"Ideal" bandwagon I know the Arabian breed as a whole would be better for it. There is no sense crying over spilt milk though.
What we have to work with now is what is really important. Oh and not repeating past mistakes.
We could have shows where there is a Nazeer Champion. A Gassir Champion, A Morafic Champion. A Sameh champion etc.
Of course I agree with him. Wouldnt it be refreshing to show horses in this way? Then have ridden classes as well to include the same? Mr. Pasraskevas is mostly addressing his fellow Egyptian Breeders in Egypt because in essense the West has been dictating to the rest of the world including Egypt, how things should be done concerning the Arabian horse when maybe at least breeders in Egypt should really start thinking for themselves.

Today does anyone see horses shown in Halter anywhere in the world that dont look more like the Saqlawi type than any other? Im sure their is an exception to every rule but Id like to see multiple examples of other types in the showring, namely in Halter classes. smile.gif
Abbasiyah
Hi Troy,

This book has been mentioned here before and on the other forums. It would be great if we could have a good discussion about the book on this forum.
In the spirit of trying to move the discussion forward I have copied my post from the other forum.

I received the book yesterday and sat down to read it after feeding. I couldn't put it down!! Personally I did not find it insulting to anyone but rather an impassioned plea for the soul of the Arabian and for breeders to focus on breeding to preserve or to restore the desert bred characteristics of our Egyptian Arabians. I agree with many of his observations about the current show ring and the direction that it is leading us. I most certainly hope that the EAO remains as the guardian of ALL the family lines and that it does not succumb to the pressure of the one IDEAL Arabian type doctrine. This book both stimulated me as a small breeder who is trying to preserve the desert bred characteristics in my own breeding programme and who is concerned with the direction that our Arabian has taken. Further it also depresses and scares me with thoughts of the loss of the EAO and not having this valuable source blood for the future. I don't agree with the WESTERN ways of showing so it stands to reason that I agree with his comments on what is going on in the shows. I also agree with him on the fact that judging standards need to be changed. All in all this is IMHO a great book that goes to the very heart of all the problems we are seeing in this industry. I too am looking forward to more people reading this book and hopefully they can finally SEE now what so many of us have been talking about for years.

diane
Here's the link for you Troy... http://www.straightegyptians.com/forum2/in...st&p=374890
Al Ubayyan
Thanks for the link Diane.

"The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard." David Gerrold

Just last night I read this quote for the first time and considered putting it in my signature line. I wont do it now. Its good you have it. Its interesting though that just this morning you reply to this thread and you have it in your signature line.
Just goes to show how sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.
diane
QUOTE (Al Ubayyan @ Feb 11 2011, 12:52 AM) *
Thanks for the link Diane.

"The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard." David Gerrold

Just last night I read this quote for the first time and considered putting it in my signature line. I wont do it now. Its good you have it. Its interesting though that just this morning you reply to this thread and you have it in your signature line.
Just goes to show how sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.

Please, do use it. The more it's seen / read, the more it reinforces the truth smile.gif

Dave
I'm almost done reading the book and I will get volumn 2. I don't own or breed SEs but my Polish mares have Egyptian lines.

This book applies to the breed as a whole particularly the need to take performance into breeding classes.

Paraskevas has put into print what many of us have been thinking for years. We owe him a debt of graditute.

Dave
diane
Amazon The Egyptian Alternative: In Search of the Identity of the Egyptian Arabian Bloodlines (Volume II) is now available via Amazon.

QUOTE
This book is a clarion call for revolution in the way breeders view, and breed, Egyptian Arabian Horses. in Vol.I Philippe Paraskevas challenged many current notions about breeding & horse showing practices, his primary concern being to safeguard the future of the Egyptian Arabian horse. In this volume he examines in great detail the E.A.O bloodpool- its different strains & sirelines, its antecedents & potential. he delves into the complexities of reading pedigrees, describing strains, sub-strains & horse families as well as the benefits of preservation breeding and outcrossing. this is a breeder's guide to the detailed genealogies of different strains as this writer chooses to read the vertical charts. The author takes a critical look at the effect of the fragmentation of what once was simply the Desert Arabian into a multitude of sub-categories as defined by a variety of associations of breeders. He defines the principles and plan of action required to ensure the rebirth of the Desert Arabian and gives us hope that there is still a way forward. The Publisher




smile.gif
HLM
QUOTE (diane @ Jan 25 2012, 12:29 PM) *
Amazon The Egyptian Alternative: In Search of the Identity of the Egyptian Arabian Bloodlines (Volume II) is now available via Amazon.





smile.gif



I have received the VOLUME II and consider it a MASTERPIECE. There are so few people left who have the courage to come forward, share their opinions and educate.

this book is a MUST i I feel to own. it teaches so much, reminds us of so much.

Hansi
Abbasiyah
QUOTE (HLM @ Jan 25 2012, 10:42 AM) *
I have received the VOLUME II and consider it a MASTERPIECE. There are so few people left who have the courage to come forward, share their opinions and educate.

this book is a MUST i I feel to own. it teaches so much, reminds us of so much.

Hansi



I wholeheartedly agree with Hansi's statement above. I have received VOL II and it is fabulous. I really appreciate the work Philippe has put into this book and yes his courage to come out and share his opinions. IMHO every serious breeder of the Desert Arabian/Straight Egyptian needs to read this book. Thank you Philippe!!!

2mntn
I have read both volumes of The Egyptian Alternative. In my opinion, they are the best works of their kind of this century, and probably about half of the last.

The Egyptian Alternative, Volume I, had me puzzled until I understood the context - which is: EAO bloodlines AT the EAO, past and present, along with questions for the future of the program AT the EAO and, by default, breeders of the Egyptian Arabian everywhere. If I understand Philippe correctly, an aversion to using some bloodlines, such as those of Inshass, exists in Egypt and other locations. Factually stated is that many sire and dam lines have been lost AT the EAO. Fortunately, these lines are not lost TO the EAO because these lines exist outside of Egypt and could be reclaimed AT the EAO. Personally, my experience with Egyptian bloodlines has been somewhat blessed in that almost all the lines lost AT the EAO, as well as those great lines from Inshass, are available here in the United States. For instance, I can easily find El Deree, Jamil El Kebir and Zobeyni sire lines, as well as low or non-Nazeer lines. I can find bloodlines with no Inshass or bloodlines with quite a bit of Inshass. We are fortunate in that respect.

Like many readers, I had to wonder at some of the questions posed by Philippe in Vol I, as I had no understanding of his background as a breeder. I wondered how his personal experiences with the horses were brought to bear on the subject. Of course there was a short bio on Philippe in Volume I, but my real questions about him were answered by the Arabian Horse World magazine article which featured his program. No amount of words can support the validity of a long-term program, and the person behind it, like a few professional photographs. For my taste, the classic, desert Arabian type and quality of the horses bred by Philippe are surpassed by none. A person would have to be blind and deaf to not see and hear "I am an Arabian!" fairly shining and shouting right off the pages. That article was end-of-story for me with regard to any questioning of Philippe’s credentials. His horses speak for him, much louder and more eloquently than words. As an example, here is a video link to El Sit, a young filly bred and owned by Philippe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=MIcl_l4sx9g

The Egyptian Alternative, Volume II, represents a great deal of research, correlation and distilling of vital information on the EAO bloodlines and presenting it in an informative and practical way. This volume is a must-have for serious breeders of EAO bloodlines. With regard to the prospects for the future of the EAO, I can only wonder why the EAO does not take charge of its own destiny. There is nothing preventing the EAO from reclaiming lost lines. There is nothing preventing the EAO from incorporating other asil lines, such as those to be found in Bahrain, Syria and Saudi, to name a few. There is absolutely no reason for the EAO to "bow" to the "ideals" of the West. Leadership from the EAO is all that is needed, using its own judgment and ignoring all others, in order to proceed in doing the right thing for the future of the Egyptian Arabian. That "right thing" would be to use the recipe of the past to produce a solution for the future. A judicious incorporation of carefully selected individuals would not only be expected, but applauded and widely accepted – in my opinion. If leadership does not come from the EAO, and soon, it will come from elsewhere and this will spell the end for the EAO as anything other than an interesting historical footnote.
diane
Nice, Ray... my own thoughts from sometime back
QUOTE (diane @ Nov 18 2010, 08:37 AM) *
Regarding the conclusions... my thoughts...
<snipped>
The book is primarily written for Egyptians. The author writes about why he chose to publish in English first and offered globally, so I feel there is a subtle message there for westerners. The author suggests an Egyptian version is to be published in the future. This first publishing is in English with global distribution. Amongst other issues, perhaps he's also put the new EAO Board on notice to the global village rather than just Egypt. Is anyone aware of and care to share who is on the Board currently re EAO asil breeding decisions?


QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 10 2012, 10:02 AM) *
The Egyptian Alternative, Volume II, represents a great deal of research, correlation and distilling of vital information on the EAO bloodlines and presenting it in an informative and practical way. This volume is a must-have for serious breeders of EAO bloodlines. With regard to the prospects for the future of the EAO, I can only wonder why the EAO does not take charge of its own destiny. There is nothing preventing the EAO from reclaiming lost lines. There is nothing preventing the EAO from incorporating other asil lines, such as those to be found in Bahrain, Syria and Saudi, to name a few. There is absolutely no reason for the EAO to "bow" to the "ideals" of the West. Leadership from the EAO is all that is needed, using its own judgment and ignoring all others, in order to proceed in doing the right thing for the future of the Egyptian Arabian. That "right thing" would be to use the recipe of the past to produce a solution for the future. A judicious incorporation of carefully selected individuals would not only be expected, but applauded and widely accepted – in my opinion. If leadership does not come from the EAO, and soon, it will come from elsewhere and this will spell the end for the EAO as anything other than an interesting historical footnote.


There were no answers to my question. Any takers this time? Wondering why?... perhaps the EAO Board feels safe and somewhat secure if there is no accountability. There is now accountability.

You are right - Volume ll bolsters Volume l and both are excellent.
Abbasiyah
Well I will triple the endorsement of these books as being just fabulous and as Ray put it probably some of the best written works of this century. This is not to dispel the books written by others but these books are not marketing based books mixed with history.

Ray... and Diane.... I could not have said it any better....

With regard to the prospects for the future of the EAO, I can only wonder why the EAO does not take charge of its own destiny. There is nothing preventing the EAO from reclaiming lost lines. There is nothing preventing the EAO from incorporating other asil lines, such as those to be found in Bahrain, Syria and Saudi, to name a few. There is absolutely no reason for the EAO to "bow" to the "ideals" of the West. Leadership from the EAO is all that is needed, using its own judgment and ignoring all others, in order to proceed in doing the right thing for the future of the Egyptian Arabian. That "right thing" would be to use the recipe of the past to produce a solution for the future. A judicious incorporation of carefully selected individuals would not only be expected, but applauded and widely accepted – in my opinion. If leadership does not come from the EAO, and soon, it will come from elsewhere and this will spell the end for the EAO as anything other than an interesting historical footnote.

I agree with Ray as written above and with Diane in previous posts.....It's time that the EAO took charge of their own destiny AND stopped taking direction from Western originated Societies even though these Societies have been. to date, highly successful in the promotion of their ideals and in the identification of what they consider is a "Straight Egyptian" Arabian throughout the World... Should not the EAO be designating the parameters as to ... what is an Asil, "Straight Egyptian" Arabian?

HLM
QUOTE (Al Ubayyan @ Feb 7 2011, 04:25 PM) *
One of the concepts Mr. Pasraskevas brings to the light of day is this...to breed horses not only by strain but to breed by bloodlines and then show those against each catagorically instead of this silly notion of breeding for the ideal Arabian.
Im paraphasing:
Breeding for the "Ideal Arabian" he says is detrimental to the whole breed becasuse it is making to many cookie cutter beauty contestants out of the breed at large. This "ideal Arabian" way of breeding is also affecting the breed because disposition is not given first and foremost consideration. If it was, we would not be seeing so many horses with heads that are so extreme, legs like broken matchsticks and most all horses that are shown looking more like Saqlawi than anything else.
I say to for that matter, in the place where we all got this idea of the "Ideal Arabian" there would of been more pages written about disposition than written about the conformation, and that "the head is the hallmark" type stuff.
If we all had read about disposition being most important as we were all jumping on that
"Ideal" bandwagon I know the Arabian breed as a whole would be better for it. There is no sense crying over spilt milk though.
What we have to work with now is what is really important. Oh and not repeating past mistakes.
We could have shows where there is a Nazeer Champion. A Gassir Champion, A Morafic Champion. A Sameh champion etc.
Of course I agree with him. Wouldnt it be refreshing to show horses in this way? Then have ridden classes as well to include the same? Mr. Pasraskevas is mostly addressing his fellow Egyptian Breeders in Egypt because in essense the West has been dictating to the rest of the world including Egypt, how things should be done concerning the Arabian horse when maybe at least breeders in Egypt should really start thinking for themselves.

Today does anyone see horses shown in Halter anywhere in the world that dont look more like the Saqlawi type than any other? Im sure their is an exception to every rule but Id like to see multiple examples of other types in the showring, namely in Halter classes. smile.gif



Hi there

What I admire so much is the courage the author has of speaking his mind/opinion with explanations, and how well this is received by those who have these 2 books.

Personally I feel it is a MUST to have both, to learn to understand FACTS and or opnions which can be verified by various researchers.

It is so refreshing to have such non-political books available and learn from it.

Take cre
hansi
classicarabs
I am fairly "new" to breeding Al Khamsa, Asil horses, but not Arabians... I began with the purchase of my first purebred mare in 1996 and have been a student of the breed since I was around 2 years old and first began begging for my own Arabian horse! So suffice to say this breed has been in my heart for my entire life. I've attached pictures of my very special Al Khamsa mare, Shams Majiida MA. I spent two years searching, researching and saving before I found and purchased her... and it took me three months of negotiating and further saving to acquire her. She is my personal "ideal" and I will happily breed her and retain her offspring.

Now then... I've attached photos of her and her class A champion son, Serr Majiid to prove that there are judges out there who will reward the SE arabian in halter competition. Serr Majiid has been crowned champion more than once and placed well even as a yearling. He is K. Rodan in tail female and in my opinion his type and that of his mother respresents the Kuhaylan type AND the disposition they are well known for quite well. Imagine my own excitement when I found this mare! I had this idea in my head and heart of what I wanted in my Asil foundation mare and I traveled to a farm and saw many horses before finding this hidden gem. She has only had two Al Khamsa babies and her drop dead gorgeous filly is as yet unshown, but she would truly "OWN" the ring if she was exhibited in halter.

Disposition is my main goal. I feel the beauty is there, we can find beauty in our horses every day of the week, but the MIND? That is sometimes tough to come by and it's my personal focus and saddle is training too. You see I grew up longing to ride and in fact began riding horses when I was two years old. I was determined! I would scale the gate or fence and just wait for the horses to meander over and I'd climb on and "ride". Those horses were good babysitters. smile.gif

I've had Arabians that were true pains in the rear-end to handle but were great under saddle and very much took care of me... but oh I could tell you tales of scary circumstances they put me in when the vet would come or we had something spook them. It has been my experience that has brought me to my current "preservation" program. A preservation of disposition, confident character and gentle, loyal horses that love being with people and being handled and trained. So yes, there are people like me working toward this goal.

As for Paraskevas' book, I have not read it, but have read excerpts of it on his website and commentary on it and I am intrigued to read it in its entirety and form an opinion on it. I am sure I won't agree totally with it, but I know there are portions of it that I will embrace. There is a great deal of info on it on the AHW website that I recently read through, great opinions and ideas, some that I agree with wholeheartedly and some that I do not, but all very interesting to read!

As for the different types, especially being presented in halter... here are the two examples I know of first-hand. I wish that more SE would exhibit. There are too few being shown in competitions like Class A and World Cup, Vegas. However... given the small amount shown, I think it's outstanding how they place when they ARE presented! If in a halter class there is only one Al Khamsa, SE presented and that horse places top three or better, I think that says a lot in and of itself! smile.gif

I had so many compliments when I took Majiida to her first show in about ten years... she was 13 years old and it was a short time after the "Pierce" photo was taken... I showed her au natural too, NO shaving or clipping, just bathed and sparkling in all of her natural beauty. I had to chuckle though, at least three people asked me how old my gorgeous "filly" was!!!! smile.gif) Imagine their surprise when they saw her in the senior mare competition. (First photo is Majiida right before her show, second is her Champion son, third is her as a four year old mare)

QUOTE (Al Ubayyan @ Feb 7 2011, 09:25 AM) *
One of the concepts Mr. Pasraskevas brings to the light of day is this...to breed horses not only by strain but to breed by bloodlines and then show those against each catagorically instead of this silly notion of breeding for the ideal Arabian.
Im paraphasing:
Breeding for the "Ideal Arabian" he says is detrimental to the whole breed becasuse it is making to many cookie cutter beauty contestants out of the breed at large. This "ideal Arabian" way of breeding is also affecting the breed because disposition is not given first and foremost consideration. If it was, we would not be seeing so many horses with heads that are so extreme, legs like broken matchsticks and most all horses that are shown looking more like Saqlawi than anything else.
I say to for that matter, in the place where we all got this idea of the "Ideal Arabian" there would of been more pages written about disposition than written about the conformation, and that "the head is the hallmark" type stuff.
If we all had read about disposition being most important as we were all jumping on that
"Ideal" bandwagon I know the Arabian breed as a whole would be better for it. There is no sense crying over spilt milk though.
What we have to work with now is what is really important. Oh and not repeating past mistakes.
We could have shows where there is a Nazeer Champion. A Gassir Champion, A Morafic Champion. A Sameh champion etc.
Of course I agree with him. Wouldnt it be refreshing to show horses in this way? Then have ridden classes as well to include the same? Mr. Pasraskevas is mostly addressing his fellow Egyptian Breeders in Egypt because in essense the West has been dictating to the rest of the world including Egypt, how things should be done concerning the Arabian horse when maybe at least breeders in Egypt should really start thinking for themselves.

Today does anyone see horses shown in Halter anywhere in the world that dont look more like the Saqlawi type than any other? Im sure their is an exception to every rule but Id like to see multiple examples of other types in the showring, namely in Halter classes. smile.gif
AL MOUSSAMI
QUOTE (HLM @ Jan 25 2012, 05:42 PM) *
I have received the VOLUME II and consider it a MASTERPIECE. There are so few people left who have the courage to come forward, share their opinions and educate.

this book is a MUST i I feel to own. it teaches so much, reminds us of so much.

Hansi

Hi Hansi It is so nice to read you on this Forum....Mr.Paraskevas is wonderful Author and a gentelman he is a dear friend and I do wish him the best ..What is offering his readers is the true feelings of many...Regards Bachir
HLM
QUOTE (AL MOUSSAMI @ May 9 2012, 01:59 PM) *
Hi Hansi It is so nice to read you on this Forum....Mr.Paraskevas is wonderful Author and a gentelman he is a dear friend and I do wish him the best ..What is offering his readers is the true feelings of many...Regards Bachir



Yes he is and I correspond quite a bit with him.We are on the same believes and interlect level.

take care
Hansi
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