Can anybody give me some reference horses for the Kuhaylan Dajanieh and Seglawi Al-Abd strains? Pictures would be great, but names work also. Can you also tell me a bit about these strains?

Thanks so much for your help!

Stacee

Hi Stacee,
I cannot really tell you much about these strains as types, but I can give you some names.
There is quite a big familiy representing the Saklawi Al Abd strain through the Davenport US-import Wadduda db (born 1899). Horses like the succesful sires Fadjur and Ferzon, Ferneyn, the legengary Khemosabi, 2002 US National Champion Odyssey SC, SHF Southern Whiz (sire of World Champion Mare SHF Pearlie Mae) as well as RA Cool Elygance (dam of El Amin and CE Magnum) descend from the Wadduda-line. As the above named stallions were extendly used, the Saklawi Al Abd strain is widely spread.
The Kuhaylan Dajan strain is represented by the the many descendants of the Blunt mare Dajania db (born1876). Through her great-grand-daughter Namusa (1899) her influence extended to Australia very early. Fairview Shaklas Sugar And Spice belongs to that branch. Descendants of Namusa's halfsister Narda II (1902) are Desert Heat VF, Aarief and Arkane El Jamaal. I might say, the greater merit in spreading this strain had Dajania's grand-daughter Nasra (1908). El Gato, Raffon, Indraff, Gai Parada, Padron's Kadar (in Belgium), RSD Dark Victory trace back to her in direct female line as well as the famous Crabbet-bred sires Indian Magic, Indian King, *Serafix and his fullbrother *Silver Drift, *Nizzam and last but never ever ever least the founder of the second-largest (????) sire line today: Naseem (Skowronek x Nasra) who sired Negatiw.
I hope I could help you a little. I do have some more photos but my memory for photographers' names tells me I should not post them here

Conny

The picture shows Nasra.

Thank you so much Conny! That did help. I appreciate it!

You're welcome

The Spanish import and foundation mare Zulima is a Seglawi Al Abd and is represented by such horses as the American winners:

Petit Jean, Surita, Mi Fanci, Shahteyna, and Bey Teyna.

The Polish mare family of Mlecha-a Keheilan Dueni is considered to be by many to be the same as Kuhailan Dajania - just the phonetic spellings in Polish and English differs considerably: *Arwistawa, *Bask, and Almaden are representative.

Thanks so much, Gari! I am tempted to ask what these two strains are best known for, but I am currently reading the "Inherent Capabilities of Strains" threads, so I'm hoping that many of my questions will be covered in this topic.

Great info!!

My mare is pure in strain Kuhaylan Dajani

My other mare is Saqlawi Al'Abd.

another

Thank you so much for the pictures, mckulley1!!! Very nice! So, if I remember correctly (though I'm sure there is MUCH more to it), the Kuhaylan strain is more masculine and the Seglawi more feminine? So, the Kuhaylan would have a straighter profile, more muscle mass? And the Seglawi would be a bit more refined? Or am I way off base?

Thanks so much again!

Consider the strain theory - its based on a name rather than genetics. Although the foundation genetics (tail female) does have a genetic code. However, each mare who is a foundation to the western known strain names concept more than likely has a genetic makeup which we can't really account for. Essentially suggesting, a Bedouin tribe's preference in type would have predispositioned the initial "look" of a strain when the westerners first took notice of the strain naming phenomenon. In my opinion, as it is currently referred to, strain type isn't a given as it depends on the volume of this type in the pedigree or the predisposition of the genetics of that type to dominate a pedigree.

Yes, there are multiple types within the Arabian Horse as a Breed but not necessarily from the advent of a strain name. MHO attributes shouldn't automatically be associated with strain names.

To my knowledge it may have been Raswan who suggested the masculine and feminine types be associated with a strain name - probably because of the circumstances at the time in Arabia? ie limited numbers, tribal preferences, the predisposition to categorise types etc. Yes there are masculine and feminine types but not necessary of a strain name. Its more a coincidence that a look can be associated with a strain name, not a general rule.

my thoughts

S. Conn: From interviewing various breeders over the years certain traits have been attributable to the various strains. But because they were bred so tightly for thousands of years before we in the West began to alter them to our conceptualizations it is not difficult to re-invigorate the lines with those traits that the individual families of breeders most cherished.

As Diane noted do not confuse strains with genes....the genes could be very different. Instead the strain names are derived from the families that bred the horses and these are common generalizations:

Seglawi - Ultra elegant, courageous, loyal and intelligent -typical examples are *Carmargue, *Ecaho;

Kuhailan-More robust, perhaps too intelligent for their own good, slight tendency to masculinity. The Kuhailan Rodania's are incredibly fecund and the Dajanias always tend to produce better - more beautiful colts than fillies. If you find one that has beautiful fillies-buy her-there will be nothing comparable to her sons. Besides Naseem the incomparable *Estopa is suspected by many to be a K. Dajania;

Menaghi-Very beautiful (contrary to the writings of Raswan-contradicted by several who have spent even more time with the tribes who say the descriptions are more of a'my horse is better than your horse' nonsense) and fast. Known to have the best race horses. The immortals Ferseyn and Amber Satin are typical here.

Abbeyan Sherrak-known for bulging jibbah's and gorgeous tail carriage. Queen of Sheba

Hamdani Simri-Ultra smooth, elegant, a reliable and sweet riding horse. Lady Anne Blunt tells of one who had not been ridden for years upon who they jumped on and rode without realizing how long it had been since she had been ridden. Indeed a friend during the Blitz tells the story that one day they received a call that the Luftwaffe were headed straight toward their farm. At that time the bombs that had hung up in the bomb bay would be dumped into the farms where they could circle around and more safely dislodge stuck bombs than they could over London. My friend , her mother and siblings raced down to the lower forty haltered the Arabian mares (all straight Crabbets) and she jumped aboard one with just the halter on and led four more-racing for the safety of the stone barns. Later her mother looked at my friend with near awe saying:"Good heavens! The mare you were riding has never been started under saddle! Lady Wentworth's beloved Silver Fire is typical of this line as well as US National Champion Mare SS Follow Me.

Hadban Enzahi-Can be bred to anything and expect a good result! Very upright, excellent tail carriage and can be very hot showy horses. Nazeer.

Dahman Shahwan-Considered by many to be the most beautiful, compact and prolific. Ansata Ibn Halima

Well it may not be all but it is a start and remember there are hundreds of substrains. For me and my breeding program-I can only say that tapping into and breeding to the strain strength has proven to be a major breakthrough so far. I strongly feel there is something to strain theory.

Kuhailan-More robust, perhaps too intelligent for their own good, slight tendency to masculinity. The Kuhailan Rodania's are incredibly fecund and the Dajanias always tend to produce better - more beautiful colts than fillies. If you find one that has beautiful fillies-buy her-there will be nothing comparable to her sons. Besides Naseem the incomparable *Estopa is suspected by many to be a K. Dajania;

ok, THAT wasn't supposed to happen
But anyways...what I was trying to get at, the above statement. Figures!!!! All I WANT are fillies to retain and it figures I have a pure in strain mare who may produce better colts than fillies!!! ARG! Her colt is so beautiful, had he been a filly, he'd have been retained. Lord help me! Come on *Ecaho, help me out here with her!

Gari,

Your answer is exactly what I was looking for. I don't know how you can remember all of that information.

Strains seem so complicated. But, obviously, there must be truth to them or the strain theory would have died out by now.

Thank you for taking the time to give me examples of what some strains are known for. It seems like a never ending discussion (as is evident in the sticky thread, "inherent capabilities..."). I was wondering about the two strains specifically, because I was told that's what my filly's strains are. It is all so interesting! Thanks again!

Stacee

SConn:

When I run a pedigree there are several things to look for:

1-Tail female/strain (there can only be one strain)

2.-Sire Line-Did you know that worldwide only four are repeatedly in hand successful:Skowronek, Nazeer, Kuhailan Haifi, and Mirage...the preponderance universally seem to be the first three.

3. t-racing the sire's tail female- This is my own thing but there does seem to be a small but measurable influence of the sire's tail female/strain.

4.-Go out to the fifth generation and trace the strains of each horse to determine which strain most heavily influences the pedigree. Recently I ran the strains to the Northern California Lady Breeders-a group of Arabian horse breeders who meet every month for lunch. There were over 20 pedigrees and all but two were heavily weighted to Kuhailan strains even tho' the dam lines might have been of other lines.

McKulley-Are you on well water? Have you had the water pH tested? You want to feed apple cider vinegar adjusted to be slightly acidic-it will prevent enteroliths AND give you a slightly better than average chance for a fillies.

Stacee - you must be pleased, now that you have found what you were looking for.

Gari - in the interests of fair journalism, how about discussing some individuals who are not representative of what has become accepted as attributes associated with strain names ?

Gari,
Actually, I took your advice last winter and started her on ACV and we've been doing it ever since. Now everyone gets it, hoping it takes care of bugs like some people say it does. The other thing I'm going to do is NOT have the vet inject the hormone to speed up ovulation, after talking to Christine of Toshkara she said that can increase your chances of a filly as well....

Well, from what I was told my filly is Kuhaylan Dajan because her tail female strain traces back to Dajania. Unfortunately, I do not know the Sire's tail female lines because my pedigree does not go back that far.

Through my own research, I have extended her pedigree out to 6 and even 7 generations, but that's only on the grandsires because they are easier to search for. Unless the mare is very well noted, you cannot find them as easily.

I have attached her pedigree just for fun.

McKulley
As you know there are no guarantees in life but have sure found that taking special care like that seems to avoid a lot of problems.

S Conn: If you want email me from here with the name and registry of your mare and I can try to run it for you.

Diane

Would that I had the time....that is why I said "common generalizations". People screw up -haven't got a clue-genes mutate-horses get insufficient nutrition or sick-the wrong parentage is given and isn't discovered til too late (in the US only recently have we bloodtested both sires and dams)-there are any numbers of things that make exceptions. Those things must be taken into account before applying the generalizations. Most people don't take them into account because they don't begin to understand just basic rules. Arguing about them is fruitless. Proving the point by breeding a consistently beautiful, sweet, athletic horse from any bloodline desired, that can whip the shoes off the closest competitor, is the proof that the breeder knows what breeding is about.

mckulley1 - I don't want to shed doubt on ACV - gosh no, I use it as well with my herd (+ my dogs and me) ~ for health rather than conception! Though I have to say, for the 12yrs+ that I've used it, its not given "all fillies". My thoughts - two main factors - know your mare's and stallion's fertility. Perhaps watch and notate your mare's cycle (even when you're not breeding her) noting when she's in season and try to predict when she will ovulate. There are few texts available to help pin point this (without invasive scans) that is, if your mare shows the right signs (another factor!). Perhaps you have done this?

time - there's never enough of it, I do agree Gari! ...individuals who I've seen and are well known - Akid Geshan KJ, Ansata El Shahwan (incest bred) SJ. Unfortunately, publications tend to focus on the like rather than the unlike.

Oh, absolutly. I have her cycle down to a "T". Christine has had 8 out of 9 fillies using her entire method, however I can only use part of it because I do AI....colts are fine, but boy will I be MIFFED!

Diane do you regularly test your water for ph? Every single breeder who has failed to have fillies have failed to test for ph, gave the wrong amount ACV and ALWAYS poo-pooed the idea. Conversely the info first came to me via my own human doctor a chemistry major before he decided to go into medicine. Just do know that done properly and remembering that well water's properties can change over time that is why it should be tested regularly seems to work for those who do it properly.

AI - that doesn't help! Good luck

being honest Gari - on a personal level it really isn't a concern, to miss out on a stunning colt (or even gelding) would be the pits The times I have bred for a filly, a filly resulted. To answer your question though, I don't test the bore water regularly, (would need to be done per tank fill as I don't know the source of the bore ie underground stream or pool, even though I've been assured the source is "good" - we use it in the house when there's been no rain) neither do I check the acidic strength of the ACV (non commercial)! And yes, I do believe the method helps, if done properly thanks for your thoughts, they are appreciated.

Well one old fashioned method of determining sex...what is the mare's disposition like? Usually when carrying colts my mares have been known to be a tad's more aggessive and less likely to take being pushed around! Downright cranky...actually. The vet has advised it is the additional testosterone in their systems.

from experience - I'd concur with these thoughts, though it does depend on the mare. I'll let you know if it proves true for this year's foal(s).

Ok, so I can see that even that won't work for me cause my mare was the sweetest thing when she was in foal...with a colt!

Ah...but how was she with other horses? My mares are always sweet with me no matter what but do tend to be ever so slightly 'itch-bays' with the other horses depending on the individual. It can be subtle but distinct.

Oh, she was the same, sweet and kind, almost to the point of being too flighty around them. On the flip side, I thought I was having a filly, and my friend was having a colt because her mare was just a grouch and the foal was extremely active with kicking and turning. She DID have a colt

Hi Gari,

I lost all the information you had sent me on Zulima and the text exerpts from various authors concerning her role in teh Spanish breeding programs and later.

I might be able to recover it but it was invaluable to me as I don't have all those books except the one with her picture and the expedition in the desert (thanks to you).

Also lost your e-mail address.

I would love if you couls send it to me again,

Christine

Could anyone please tell me if Kuhaylan Dajanieh and Kuhaylah Dajaniyah are the same? My filly is Kuhaylah Dajaniyah in strain (apparently).

Thanks!
Kim

Dajanieh and Dajaniyah are the same. I have no idea why the feminine endings are different. Spelling variations are a part of most - if not all - strain names.

They are feminine endings BTW, masculine is Dajani.

Thanks for answering my question. Any additional information on this thread would be appreciated by me also as my filly is of this strain. Thanks!