I wonder if some wise souls out there could perhaps enlighten me a bit. Two years ago, I bought a young (3-yr-old) straight Egyptian/Al Khamsa/Sheykh Obeyd/etc. gelding from Walter Schimanski of Masada Arabians. At the time, "Masada Ben Azi" was only halter-broke, and upon his purchase, I sent him to Sue Burnham of Hope Farm for breaking and training.
I love my little horse, but I do have some questions that maybe someone out there could answer. Ben Azi is small, standing about 14 hands even, and he's built like a little truck. Though he has a beautiful head with a lot of dish and type to it, and carries his tail up and out when moving, he doesn't have the beautiful long legs and ethereal look that so many Egyptians seem to possess. (The good side to his lack of typiness is that he's wonderfully stoic and quiet and level-headed -- nice traits for an older, rather timid rider!). He is very substantially built -- almost like an old-type Morgan -- and doesn't have a whole lot of shoulder lay-back, resulting in a rather short forearm/foreleg.
Would this sort of conformation be the reason why he's got a short, choppy trot and the most bucketing, rocking, hard-to-sit-to canter imaginable? Is there anything that I can do to help make him into a more comfortable ride? (I have a bad back and that canter just kills me.) Other people I know who have owned Arabs have told me that this bucketing sort of canter is typical to the Arabian, but oh, dear, is it uncomfortable...
My second question regards Ben's type, or rather, lack of it. His sire is Razal Ibn Azalia, a very typey grey with the sort of conformation I had mentioned earlier -- long graceful legs, very typey and "ethereal" looking. Razal was sired by Ra'adin Inshalla and out of Ansata Azalia, giving him two crosses to Ansata Ibn Halima.
Ben's dam is Masada Fay Khedena, who was by Fabo out of the *Tuhotmos daughter, Om Khamsa. She's got a lot of Babson in her, but she, too, is very typey, with a very long, classically elegant neck and a lot of "prettiness."
So, what happened to my little gelding? What behind him -- given his parents' typiness and beauty -- might have contributed to his heavier bone, shorter neck, and substance? Is it the Babson stuff behind his dam? And, as he gets older (he's now five) is he likely to get any more typey and pretty?
A safe and sane horse remains my highest priority in a mount, and Ben certainly fulfills these requirements and then some. He is a beloved member of our little family and will, I hope, be a nice mount for our little daughter (who is almost 3) when it comes time for her to want to ride. I just wish he looked a little prettier ... and am wondering why he doesn't. Anyone have any thoughts on this? He's second generation Saglawi.
Private emails welcome at Danelle@gatcombe.com Many thanks, -- Danelle
Full Version: Question On Conformation/gait
Dear Danelle
I just can help you a little bit in riding and conformation. Genetic is knowing the ancestors to see from where your horses problem is coming. And here I have'nt knowledge.
Conformation. A straight shoulder brings the leg less in front. But to have a rough trot or /and canter that's not enough mistake. When the horse has a short upperarm and forearm and bad angle of the shoulder that means the strides are not long and more in high than in legth. More type horse for trail rides than for dressage. Bad buffer function is a straight short fetlock or /and clump feet.
Main problem seems to me as you discribed is that your horse doesen't bring enough power from the backside to bring the frontside of your horse "uphill". Most of the time this is the reason of a hard to sit bumpy canter - the shoulders are down. As he has a short thick neck (after you) he is more in troubles to be ridden to the bridel.
To get a round arched horse you have to bring your horse more on the backhand, to the bridle, back up so this tenden system of the horse is streched, that let you sit more elastic on the horse because his topline is swinging , the hindlegs ar more under the body of the horse that bring your horse uphill - and everything feels much more comfortable.
In a earlier topic I gave Lisa a litttle instruction how to bring your horse to do like this - let your horse think backwards. The topic was started by Pälmchen and was called something like countercanter and flying lead changes.
When you are trail riding, do it with a loose rein but ride a horse with that problem and a short neck always in collected trainings sessions to learn your horse to carry himself better. Don't ride your horse in the manner of western plasure, that will make the problem bigger. Once your horse has learnt to carry himself better and to go uphill, you can go back to western pleasure trail ride style but in case the problem is comming back also your training has to come back.
By the way a horse was trained by a professional that doesn't stay for ever, you have to make corrections all the time again and again to keep your horse at least on that level. When the basics had been good ones, that will cost you less training to get the good result - but without training your horse will loose the training level and become worser.
They are as lazy as we are 
I hope I could help you a bit. Ask me more, I'm not professional, what I know a can share with you.
Christina
I just can help you a little bit in riding and conformation. Genetic is knowing the ancestors to see from where your horses problem is coming. And here I have'nt knowledge.
Conformation. A straight shoulder brings the leg less in front. But to have a rough trot or /and canter that's not enough mistake. When the horse has a short upperarm and forearm and bad angle of the shoulder that means the strides are not long and more in high than in legth. More type horse for trail rides than for dressage. Bad buffer function is a straight short fetlock or /and clump feet.
Main problem seems to me as you discribed is that your horse doesen't bring enough power from the backside to bring the frontside of your horse "uphill". Most of the time this is the reason of a hard to sit bumpy canter - the shoulders are down. As he has a short thick neck (after you) he is more in troubles to be ridden to the bridel.
To get a round arched horse you have to bring your horse more on the backhand, to the bridle, back up so this tenden system of the horse is streched, that let you sit more elastic on the horse because his topline is swinging , the hindlegs ar more under the body of the horse that bring your horse uphill - and everything feels much more comfortable.
In a earlier topic I gave Lisa a litttle instruction how to bring your horse to do like this - let your horse think backwards. The topic was started by Pälmchen and was called something like countercanter and flying lead changes.
When you are trail riding, do it with a loose rein but ride a horse with that problem and a short neck always in collected trainings sessions to learn your horse to carry himself better. Don't ride your horse in the manner of western plasure, that will make the problem bigger. Once your horse has learnt to carry himself better and to go uphill, you can go back to western pleasure trail ride style but in case the problem is comming back also your training has to come back.
By the way a horse was trained by a professional that doesn't stay for ever, you have to make corrections all the time again and again to keep your horse at least on that level. When the basics had been good ones, that will cost you less training to get the good result - but without training your horse will loose the training level and become worser.
They are as lazy as we are I hope I could help you a bit. Ask me more, I'm not professional, what I know a can share with you.
Christina
Danelle,
From reading your post on your gelding, Masada Ben Azi, if he does have a straight shoulder chances are he also has straight pasterns as well. Which make for a rough, choppy trot. I don't know if it's written in stone anywhere, but coming from a family that raised horses for several generations, I was always under the impression that the angle of the shoulder should match the angle of the pasterns. With a straight shoulder and straight pasterns his trot and canter are never going to get more 'smooth.' The horse is just not physically built to give one a smooth trot and that rocking horse canter.
As far as his breeding goes, he is a chestnut horse with 20 some lines to *Fadl and extensive line/inbreeding to the Babson program. It's really not surprising he is compact, and rather 'Morgan' looking as you described. His sire was grey, which would be of a totally different phenotype then your gelding is. Quite often genetic traits are 'color linked' in horses. Naseem bred horses that are grey, have long, elegant necks and more often then not resemble Naseem. Nazeer bred horses that are grey tend to have very dry heads, short backs and resemble Nazeer. Babson horses that are chestnut and heavily line/inbred to *Fadl tend to be chunkier, Kheilan types of horses....Just my two cents worth.
Do remember though, the disposition he has is priceless. If he is in fact a horse that potentially a young child would do walk/trot work on the disposition would be of paramount importance. Ben just doesn't sound like a gelding one would want to do a lot of extensive trail/pleasure riding on, as he is physically not built to do that. Good luck.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
From reading your post on your gelding, Masada Ben Azi, if he does have a straight shoulder chances are he also has straight pasterns as well. Which make for a rough, choppy trot. I don't know if it's written in stone anywhere, but coming from a family that raised horses for several generations, I was always under the impression that the angle of the shoulder should match the angle of the pasterns. With a straight shoulder and straight pasterns his trot and canter are never going to get more 'smooth.' The horse is just not physically built to give one a smooth trot and that rocking horse canter.
As far as his breeding goes, he is a chestnut horse with 20 some lines to *Fadl and extensive line/inbreeding to the Babson program. It's really not surprising he is compact, and rather 'Morgan' looking as you described. His sire was grey, which would be of a totally different phenotype then your gelding is. Quite often genetic traits are 'color linked' in horses. Naseem bred horses that are grey, have long, elegant necks and more often then not resemble Naseem. Nazeer bred horses that are grey tend to have very dry heads, short backs and resemble Nazeer. Babson horses that are chestnut and heavily line/inbred to *Fadl tend to be chunkier, Kheilan types of horses....Just my two cents worth.
Do remember though, the disposition he has is priceless. If he is in fact a horse that potentially a young child would do walk/trot work on the disposition would be of paramount importance. Ben just doesn't sound like a gelding one would want to do a lot of extensive trail/pleasure riding on, as he is physically not built to do that. Good luck.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
Hi Jim
so what should she do? Put him down? Or just watching on the pastern?
Of course he will not get a smooth trot built like this but you should give her a way to make the problem as small as possible. And riding just in an arena in dressage wouldn't also be more enjoiable than a trail ride - so what else can she do - constructive recommandations please, it's a gelding and for sure bought to be a nice trail or family horse . And a horse with a straight shoulder is much smarter in complicated surroundings, where it's not flat ground and the horse has to take care where he steps. There are a lot of horses living in mountain surroundings they are special bred with straight shoulder because they are more secure in enviroment like this, also mules or donkeys (they all have straight shoulders) are very famous for their facility on stony, unsecure ground - and big part of that facility is coming from their shorter strikes through straighter shoulder. For a normal trail and family horse - not endurance horse - why not?
Christina
so what should she do? Put him down? Or just watching on the pastern?
Of course he will not get a smooth trot built like this but you should give her a way to make the problem as small as possible. And riding just in an arena in dressage wouldn't also be more enjoiable than a trail ride - so what else can she do - constructive recommandations please, it's a gelding and for sure bought to be a nice trail or family horse . And a horse with a straight shoulder is much smarter in complicated surroundings, where it's not flat ground and the horse has to take care where he steps. There are a lot of horses living in mountain surroundings they are special bred with straight shoulder because they are more secure in enviroment like this, also mules or donkeys (they all have straight shoulders) are very famous for their facility on stony, unsecure ground - and big part of that facility is coming from their shorter strikes through straighter shoulder. For a normal trail and family horse - not endurance horse - why not?
Christina
Couldn't it be better to post a picture of the gelding, to get a better idea on good and baid traits ? Now we are only guessing according the info, delivered by the owner
Christina and Jim,
First off, thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I *really* appreciate it, and, appreciate the information you've shared with me.
Christina, yes: you're correct in that Ben does have a tendency to be "heavy on his forehand," and the trainer I enlisted last year to work with us was trying to work on this tendency. She said that as he develops better balance, he should improve somewhat. So we're trying...
Jim: though Ben Azi was registered as a chestnut, he is actually grey. He's just greying out very, very slowly, which is why Walter probably missed it. And so, in that respect, he *does* resemble his sire Razal Ibn Azalia, and Ra'adin Inshalla, and Ansata Ibn Halima, and Nazeer...
It sounds as though I need to post a photo or two of him so that people here can better help me assess what's going on (and thank you, Christina, for the defense of him. He is a loving, loyal companion, and was a most caring and empathic friend when I had to put my 15-year-old dog down last summer... I've never had a horse who is so "tuned in" to humans, and so caring of their feelings, as this one.). His pasterns are not straight, he has good, solid feet, and is very sound. It's just that his canter is killing my back and I wish he were more typey (though as I mentioned, he does have a very beautiful head). If someone here could tell me how to post a photo or two, I'll be happy to do so. :-)
Many thanks!
-- Danelle
First off, thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I *really* appreciate it, and, appreciate the information you've shared with me.
Christina, yes: you're correct in that Ben does have a tendency to be "heavy on his forehand," and the trainer I enlisted last year to work with us was trying to work on this tendency. She said that as he develops better balance, he should improve somewhat. So we're trying...
Jim: though Ben Azi was registered as a chestnut, he is actually grey
It sounds as though I need to post a photo or two of him so that people here can better help me assess what's going on (and thank you, Christina, for the defense of him. He is a loving, loyal companion, and was a most caring and empathic friend when I had to put my 15-year-old dog down last summer... I've never had a horse who is so "tuned in" to humans, and so caring of their feelings, as this one.). His pasterns are not straight, he has good, solid feet, and is very sound. It's just that his canter is killing my back and I wish he were more typey (though as I mentioned, he does have a very beautiful head). If someone here could tell me how to post a photo or two, I'll be happy to do so. :-)
Many thanks!
-- Danelle
A quick P.S. I ride English, not western, and am not interested in dressage or showing (as at 5'6 I think I look a bit big on my 14-h gelding and would probably be penalized for it). :-)
-- Danelle
-- Danelle
you say he's young. even with a straighter shoulder his gaits will improve somewhat as he matures and learns to carry himself and you. you say he's on the forehand, this will also keep his legs from reaching more in front and he will be strung out behind. as he learns to move off his rear end, he will lift in front off the hands and also reach a bit further with his front legs. it takes time. however, there is no guarantee that he won't be a bit rough, but then again, he MIGHT smooth out and surprise you. i've seen some horses that you just know have to be horrible to ride and they were wonderful and the reverse has also been true...
no, it is not typical for arabs to be choppy at the canter, tho it does occur, as it does in all breeds.
no, it is not typical for arabs to be choppy at the canter, tho it does occur, as it does in all breeds.
Hi Christina
Come on now, have you ever ridden a straight shouldered horse through rough terrain and for a longer time? that is no fun at all, IT HURTS. the only time you can relive it , if you walk. No matter how well you have such horse trained, it will never be good enough to be comfortable over any distance and a pleasure to be in the saddle.
However, he might make a good driving horse. And that is also fun. He might even make a school horse, for folks to learn to sit well on an uncomfortable striding horse, on a longe line that is.
they then will appreciate more getting on a better one.
this little guy has a good dispostion and will be able to teach a lot. He can become quite an asset in that direction.
Have a nice day
hansi
Come on now, have you ever ridden a straight shouldered horse through rough terrain and for a longer time? that is no fun at all, IT HURTS. the only time you can relive it , if you walk. No matter how well you have such horse trained, it will never be good enough to be comfortable over any distance and a pleasure to be in the saddle.
However, he might make a good driving horse. And that is also fun. He might even make a school horse, for folks to learn to sit well on an uncomfortable striding horse, on a longe line that is.
they then will appreciate more getting on a better one.
this little guy has a good dispostion and will be able to teach a lot. He can become quite an asset in that direction.
Have a nice day
hansi
Hey, folks...
I don't want to use him as a school horse. I don't want to use him as a carriage horse. I don't want to sell him and I don't want to show him and I don't want to put him down and I don't want to discard him in favor of something else because in our household, an animal is here for life and that's the way it is. I have a very bad back and I just want to enjoy my little gelding for what he is with minimal amount of pain to my back. And he's a super little horse, just not tall and just not terribly pretty. As an occasional backyard ride, he's great. And as a trail prospect, he's brilliant: in fact, he did wonderfully at that last year when I took him out on the trails for the very first time ... he even crossed a wooden planked bridge over a little river, all by himself, steadily, calmly, and trustfully without freaking out and killing me, which I think was very commendable for a 4-yr-old green horse!). When I posted here, all I wanted to know was:
1. Why is his canter so "bucket-y" and "see-sawing" and is that typical for Arabians (he does have a short back) and what can I do to improve it,
and
2. What horses/lines behind him may have contributed to his lack of type and prettiness?
Really, that's all I want to know. Private emails are always welcome if that's more comfortable.
-- Danelle Gatcombe ( Danelle@gatcombe.com )
I don't want to use him as a school horse. I don't want to use him as a carriage horse. I don't want to sell him and I don't want to show him and I don't want to put him down and I don't want to discard him in favor of something else because in our household, an animal is here for life and that's the way it is. I have a very bad back and I just want to enjoy my little gelding for what he is with minimal amount of pain to my back. And he's a super little horse, just not tall and just not terribly pretty. As an occasional backyard ride, he's great. And as a trail prospect, he's brilliant: in fact, he did wonderfully at that last year when I took him out on the trails for the very first time ... he even crossed a wooden planked bridge over a little river, all by himself, steadily, calmly, and trustfully without freaking out and killing me, which I think was very commendable for a 4-yr-old green horse!). When I posted here, all I wanted to know was:
1. Why is his canter so "bucket-y" and "see-sawing" and is that typical for Arabians (he does have a short back) and what can I do to improve it,
and
2. What horses/lines behind him may have contributed to his lack of type and prettiness?
Really, that's all I want to know. Private emails are always welcome if that's more comfortable.
-- Danelle Gatcombe ( Danelle@gatcombe.com )
i believe i answered your 2 questions. i don't have his pedigree in front of me with pics to tell you where his conformation came from or i'd take a look. i also keep my gang forever. he's obviously what you need as a companion and trail horse. many happy rides.
Fran -- thank you, and yes, you did answer my question. If you'd like, email me at Danelle@gatcombe.com so I can get your email address, and I'll send photos ... for curiosity's sake, I am very eager to learn where his conformation came from as he looks so different from his sire and dam.
All the best,
-- Danelle
All the best,
-- Danelle
Hi Danelle
enjoie your buddy, have a lot of fun with him and go on trail rides as you like to do. On canter you can work you will see.
By the way the quality of the canter is in direct relation to the smooth topline and the hindlegs they can come under, so the shoulder position is for canter not so important. A straighter shoulder would make more a canter in the spanish horse style, more up in the front than f.e. a long shoulde would make longe stride in front as you would need for a racehorse to cover a big distance with one step. But this has nothing to do with the comfort of the gait.
An uncomfortable lope is when the horse has to much wight in the front, problems can be: to straight hindlegs (exsp. knee), stiff topline, saddle backed, short thick neck.
In case you would like to send me a picture:
Info@el-luwanaya-arabians.ch
to Hansi:
I grew up in Switzerland. Its very rocky aerea and I know exactely the difference for that type of trail between a more straight and a more oblique shoulder - I would prefer the more straight, the horses are much more secure. Countrys like Mazedonia, Ural they are breeding horses like Mazedonia horses, Huzuels and they all have more straight than oblique shoulders (it goes from a little to very much) . When you read through the standard for trail horses than they either don't prefer too long oblique shoulders. Of course when you want to ride dressage, races, jumping, military you will need a horse that covers a lot of ground with just one strike. But I have seen more Arabian horses with a little bit straight shoulder than with dressage-type of shoulder, exspecially the classic ones they had done their job in the desert and also a lot of the endurance horses.
As I said the straight short fetlock and pastern and or clump foot are pretty bad buffers.
And to say an arabian horse that has just a bit a straight shoulder - a horse like this can just be more or less a driving horse, schooling horse or live "useless" on the pastern - that's pretty rough and far away of reality and not very fair to Danelle who just asked a question and wanted a little help - not a put down of her horse.
Christina
enjoie your buddy, have a lot of fun with him and go on trail rides as you like to do. On canter you can work you will see.
By the way the quality of the canter is in direct relation to the smooth topline and the hindlegs they can come under, so the shoulder position is for canter not so important. A straighter shoulder would make more a canter in the spanish horse style, more up in the front than f.e. a long shoulde would make longe stride in front as you would need for a racehorse to cover a big distance with one step. But this has nothing to do with the comfort of the gait.
An uncomfortable lope is when the horse has to much wight in the front, problems can be: to straight hindlegs (exsp. knee), stiff topline, saddle backed, short thick neck.
In case you would like to send me a picture:
Info@el-luwanaya-arabians.ch
to Hansi:
I grew up in Switzerland. Its very rocky aerea and I know exactely the difference for that type of trail between a more straight and a more oblique shoulder - I would prefer the more straight, the horses are much more secure. Countrys like Mazedonia, Ural they are breeding horses like Mazedonia horses, Huzuels and they all have more straight than oblique shoulders (it goes from a little to very much) . When you read through the standard for trail horses than they either don't prefer too long oblique shoulders. Of course when you want to ride dressage, races, jumping, military you will need a horse that covers a lot of ground with just one strike. But I have seen more Arabian horses with a little bit straight shoulder than with dressage-type of shoulder, exspecially the classic ones they had done their job in the desert and also a lot of the endurance horses.
As I said the straight short fetlock and pastern and or clump foot are pretty bad buffers.
And to say an arabian horse that has just a bit a straight shoulder - a horse like this can just be more or less a driving horse, schooling horse or live "useless" on the pastern - that's pretty rough and far away of reality and not very fair to Danelle who just asked a question and wanted a little help - not a put down of her horse.
Christina
Danelle,
I'd like to see pictures of the gelding. Me email address is RFarmArabs@aol.com. Pictures can give a much better look at what you speak of when you are talking about him. No where did I suggest getting rid of the gelding, just that he'd probably not be a horse you'd want to do extensive riding work on if he's that uncomfortable at the trot and canter.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
I'd like to see pictures of the gelding. Me email address is RFarmArabs@aol.com. Pictures can give a much better look at what you speak of when you are talking about him. No where did I suggest getting rid of the gelding, just that he'd probably not be a horse you'd want to do extensive riding work on if he's that uncomfortable at the trot and canter.
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
Christina,
I really dislike it when people put words into my my mouth, that I never said. Where did I say to put the horse down? Please point that out to me.
And a horse with a straight shoulder being a much smarter riding horse in the mountains is about the farthest thing from the truth I've ever heard. Or ridden. Example: The Tevis Cup. A hundred mile, 24 hour endurance ride across some of the most rugged mountains one would encounter. No one I know goes out hunting for a 'straight' shouldered horse to compete on the Tevis Ride with. And I stand by what I said earlier, if a horse has a straight shoulder he has straight pasterns. With a straight shoulder one doesn't get a comfortable, ground covering stride at a trot or a canter. You can believe what you want it this, but doesn't it seem odd that the warmbloods, hunters/jumpers, upper level dressage horses, cutting horses, reining horses and endurance horses (that are competitive) usually have well laid back, good shoulders? What are these breeds of horses that are breeding for straight shoulders?
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
I really dislike it when people put words into my my mouth, that I never said. Where did I say to put the horse down? Please point that out to me.
And a horse with a straight shoulder being a much smarter riding horse in the mountains is about the farthest thing from the truth I've ever heard. Or ridden. Example: The Tevis Cup. A hundred mile, 24 hour endurance ride across some of the most rugged mountains one would encounter. No one I know goes out hunting for a 'straight' shouldered horse to compete on the Tevis Ride with. And I stand by what I said earlier, if a horse has a straight shoulder he has straight pasterns. With a straight shoulder one doesn't get a comfortable, ground covering stride at a trot or a canter. You can believe what you want it this, but doesn't it seem odd that the warmbloods, hunters/jumpers, upper level dressage horses, cutting horses, reining horses and endurance horses (that are competitive) usually have well laid back, good shoulders? What are these breeds of horses that are breeding for straight shoulders?
Jim Robbins
R-Farm
Hi Jim
Your statement was that the horse is not built for trail or pleasure and anyway not for sport disciplines - so for what he is to use after your opinion? Obviousely for nothing - so what remains?
For sure all performances with speed needs longer oblique shoulder I never said something different. Explicit - this was exactely what I postulated before.
But for a family horse people would like to have a horse, secure over bad ground in a quiet trail ride manner a horse with a bit straight shoulder is really not a big handycap. As I rode in the alpes I know really what it means to have a horse that makes shorter but securer steps - that's what trail riders are doing, a lot of walk over different terrain and for that reason the standard of trail rider doesn't ask for a horse with an very oblique shoulder - it's just this I said.
The question here was also not a breeding one (of course I would try to breed a horse with oblique shoulder - because I'm showing and I'm riding speed disciplines) but a question for a help - the horse exists and has this problem - how can she get better results and canter is the main problem - what I said is: here is topline, back, neck and angels of the hindleg (knee=stifle)more important.
And for family horses are character and securety on bad ground more important factors than to cover a lot of ground with one strike and that's for what oblique shoulders are.
I don't agree with you that a straight shoulder is always associated with straight pastern and it's obviousley also not for the horse Ben as Danelle explained.
She asked two questions and you could help her with the ancestors.
I just wanted to say that with a straight shoulder a horse is not worth for nothing. I just explained in what disciplines this is even a positivum.
I hope I made my way of thinking clear enough now.
Christina
Your statement was that the horse is not built for trail or pleasure and anyway not for sport disciplines - so for what he is to use after your opinion? Obviousely for nothing - so what remains?
For sure all performances with speed needs longer oblique shoulder I never said something different. Explicit - this was exactely what I postulated before.
But for a family horse people would like to have a horse, secure over bad ground in a quiet trail ride manner a horse with a bit straight shoulder is really not a big handycap. As I rode in the alpes I know really what it means to have a horse that makes shorter but securer steps - that's what trail riders are doing, a lot of walk over different terrain and for that reason the standard of trail rider doesn't ask for a horse with an very oblique shoulder - it's just this I said.
The question here was also not a breeding one (of course I would try to breed a horse with oblique shoulder - because I'm showing and I'm riding speed disciplines) but a question for a help - the horse exists and has this problem - how can she get better results and canter is the main problem - what I said is: here is topline, back, neck and angels of the hindleg (knee=stifle)more important.
And for family horses are character and securety on bad ground more important factors than to cover a lot of ground with one strike and that's for what oblique shoulders are.
I don't agree with you that a straight shoulder is always associated with straight pastern and it's obviousley also not for the horse Ben as Danelle explained.
She asked two questions and you could help her with the ancestors.
I just wanted to say that with a straight shoulder a horse is not worth for nothing. I just explained in what disciplines this is even a positivum.
I hope I made my way of thinking clear enough now.
Christina
I just wanted to post an update on this particular thread that I started -- what, four years ago? And in re-reading it, I want to thank everyone for their responses, especially Christina's.
I am very happy to report that I have become a much better rider in the four years since I started this thread, and that my horse has matured, and I have found that as I've relaxed and learned to sit the canter, and to do it often, it has improved dramatically ... I daresay that when I'm relaxed enough, it is even smooth. Even the trot has improved --we're working on "rounding/impulsion" and other dressage with a local USDF dressage instructor, and my boy CAN get his front legs out in front of him when pushed. I am happy ... and come spring, Ben will likely be seeing his first shows. (!)
In the meantime, I love him even more than ever ... our daughter takes lessons on him and he treats her like precious gold. Sometimes, she'll ask me to make a bridle for him of the leadrope and halter and hop up on him bareback, and he'll go everywhere she asks him with just the leadrope as "reins." If I can figure out how to upload it, here's a photo of the two of them, taken in September. I guess his pasterns aren't so straight after all...
-- Danelle
I am very happy to report that I have become a much better rider in the four years since I started this thread, and that my horse has matured, and I have found that as I've relaxed and learned to sit the canter, and to do it often, it has improved dramatically ... I daresay that when I'm relaxed enough, it is even smooth. Even the trot has improved --we're working on "rounding/impulsion" and other dressage with a local USDF dressage instructor, and my boy CAN get his front legs out in front of him when pushed. I am happy ... and come spring, Ben will likely be seeing his first shows. (!)
In the meantime, I love him even more than ever ... our daughter takes lessons on him and he treats her like precious gold. Sometimes, she'll ask me to make a bridle for him of the leadrope and halter and hop up on him bareback, and he'll go everywhere she asks him with just the leadrope as "reins." If I can figure out how to upload it, here's a photo of the two of them, taken in September. I guess his pasterns aren't so straight after all...
-- Danelle
Hi Danelle,
Your horse is beautiful. He's compact, well proportioned and smoothly coupled
I responded to you privately and didn't realize that your original post was over four years old! Ha
I'm sure glad to hear how much you enjoy him, how much better of a rider you've become and seeing his picture just makes me smile!
Thanks for the update.
LOVE those Babson horses!
--Susan
Your horse is beautiful. He's compact, well proportioned and smoothly coupled
I responded to you privately and didn't realize that your original post was over four years old! Ha
I'm sure glad to hear how much you enjoy him, how much better of a rider you've become and seeing his picture just makes me smile!
Thanks for the update.
LOVE those Babson horses!
--Susan
Thank you so much for both the public and private emails, folks! Yes, the original post and discussion were from four years ago ... things have improved dramatically since, and I am now very happy with my gelding.
I guess good things come to those who wait!
-- Danelle
Yes, the original post and discussion were from four years ago ... things have improved dramatically since, and I am now very happy with my gelding. I guess good things come to those who wait!
-- Danelle
Good on you for persevering with this horse, now you are reaping the rewards.
Danelle,
Its not just waiting that makes things better. Every horse needs proper development to learn to use his body correctly when carrying a rider. Most new riders have no idea how much work is really involved in helping the young horse achieve good self-carriage.
It is a tribute to both of you that you didn't give up on him - and he obviously didn't give up on you (or your daughter). Knowing his other close relatives, he should have the potential to be a great horse for you and should develop a good trot and canter with proper work and correct balance and riding on your part. I think you are already in touch with Susan Mayo who has his mother. Susan has developed top riding horses for decades. In my opinion, you can trust her advice absolutely. Good luck. And, as Ladypurr said, "love those Babsons."
Anita
Its not just waiting that makes things better. Every horse needs proper development to learn to use his body correctly when carrying a rider. Most new riders have no idea how much work is really involved in helping the young horse achieve good self-carriage.
It is a tribute to both of you that you didn't give up on him - and he obviously didn't give up on you (or your daughter). Knowing his other close relatives, he should have the potential to be a great horse for you and should develop a good trot and canter with proper work and correct balance and riding on your part. I think you are already in touch with Susan Mayo who has his mother. Susan has developed top riding horses for decades. In my opinion, you can trust her advice absolutely. Good luck. And, as Ladypurr said, "love those Babsons."
Anita
Hi Anita,
Yes, I have a huge degree of admiration and respect for Susan Mayo -- she has selflessly given of her time and energy to help me so very much, over the years, and my only regret is that we don't live closer, as I'd love to be one of her students!
No, I would never have given up on my sweet Ben Azi ... he may not have been everyone's cup of tea, here, but he has been a steadfast and loyal friend and riding partner these past six years, he is very careful with our little girl, he has consoled me when my dog was dying and when life has brought tears to my eyes, he has introduced me to the wonderful world of the SE Arabian (I have had horses before -- grew up with a Welsh Pony and an appy/Arab cross, but none have compared to these horses in utter sensitivity and dog-like companionship).
I will also confess that, after my riding instructor was catapulted off a horse who stumbled at the canter several years ago (while Ben and I were in training with her, actually), and landed on her forehead and broke her neck -- narrowly missing getting paralyzed, and having to spend the summer in a halo-brace -- I was always fearful of cantering because I'd have that running in my mind ... what if he trips, what if he trips, what if he trips ... I knew I didn't have the core-muscles to stay on, and my instructor's plight haunted me (she has long-since recovered and is riding every day, judging, etc.). It was actually Susan who told me I was just going to have to buck up and canter, canter, canter ... and one day, while riding Ben, I thought about what Susan said, and just let Ben go and FORCED myself to relax: to just lean slightly back, to let myself "go" with the canter, to not push him or stiffen up ... and it was actually SMOOTH. So, it appears that at least part of "his" problem was actually MY problem -- because I was stiff and scared (that he might stumble), he couldn't quite free up, himself, and was giving me a more see-sawing ride. I was actually amazed how much his canter smoothed out just by relaxing and having fun!
But life is a learning experience, isn't it?
-- Danelle
Yes, I have a huge degree of admiration and respect for Susan Mayo -- she has selflessly given of her time and energy to help me so very much, over the years, and my only regret is that we don't live closer, as I'd love to be one of her students!
No, I would never have given up on my sweet Ben Azi ... he may not have been everyone's cup of tea, here, but he has been a steadfast and loyal friend and riding partner these past six years, he is very careful with our little girl, he has consoled me when my dog was dying and when life has brought tears to my eyes, he has introduced me to the wonderful world of the SE Arabian (I have had horses before -- grew up with a Welsh Pony and an appy/Arab cross, but none have compared to these horses in utter sensitivity and dog-like companionship).
I will also confess that, after my riding instructor was catapulted off a horse who stumbled at the canter several years ago (while Ben and I were in training with her, actually), and landed on her forehead and broke her neck -- narrowly missing getting paralyzed, and having to spend the summer in a halo-brace -- I was always fearful of cantering because I'd have that running in my mind ... what if he trips, what if he trips, what if he trips ... I knew I didn't have the core-muscles to stay on, and my instructor's plight haunted me (she has long-since recovered and is riding every day, judging, etc.). It was actually Susan who told me I was just going to have to buck up and canter, canter, canter ... and one day, while riding Ben, I thought about what Susan said, and just let Ben go and FORCED myself to relax: to just lean slightly back, to let myself "go" with the canter, to not push him or stiffen up ... and it was actually SMOOTH. So, it appears that at least part of "his" problem was actually MY problem -- because I was stiff and scared (that he might stumble), he couldn't quite free up, himself, and was giving me a more see-sawing ride. I was actually amazed how much his canter smoothed out just by relaxing and having fun!
But life is a learning experience, isn't it?
-- Danelle
If you are keeping the horse don't blame everything on his shape - it could be better but I have definitely seen straighter shoulders - and his pasterns are not at all upright - but he doesn't look that well developed behind or in the loin.
It might simply be a problem of maturity - some horses are very scratchy under saddle to start with - asses his action loose first and consider how it alters under your weight. If you don't like what you see loose - think of ways to improve it from the ground - he should be moving with maximum freedom for him loose before you can expect him to improve with added weight on board. Watch him move away from behind - I'd guess he rather all over the place at the moment and he won't be comfortable until that strengthens.
I would consider a chiropracter - ask someone you know nearby who does dressage or showjumping - they usually can recommend someone practical. It may be why he is not muscled up over the top and therefore unable to move forward.
What about his feet - does he move better on some surfaces that others - where are you trail riding him - if the surface is hard, / stony or mixed would he prefer shoes ?
Joints - are they even slighlty puffy or warm or knobbly somewher they shouldn't be- some horse performance improves greatly with joint supplements - and as he is your gelding you intend to keep, the extra cost migh make both your lives more enjoyable.
Saddle - check it fits - try a different numnah - see if a different style suits him better.
As others have suggested schooling always helps make a horse nicer to ride - again watch him loose as he works at trot and canter, around bends and obstacles and observe how he moves - so you can see what ou have to work with. I suspect he carries that neck rather upside down and head rather high which never improves a ride and may need some lessons for you and him to try and overcome.
It might simply be a problem of maturity - some horses are very scratchy under saddle to start with - asses his action loose first and consider how it alters under your weight. If you don't like what you see loose - think of ways to improve it from the ground - he should be moving with maximum freedom for him loose before you can expect him to improve with added weight on board. Watch him move away from behind - I'd guess he rather all over the place at the moment and he won't be comfortable until that strengthens.
I would consider a chiropracter - ask someone you know nearby who does dressage or showjumping - they usually can recommend someone practical. It may be why he is not muscled up over the top and therefore unable to move forward.
What about his feet - does he move better on some surfaces that others - where are you trail riding him - if the surface is hard, / stony or mixed would he prefer shoes ?
Joints - are they even slighlty puffy or warm or knobbly somewher they shouldn't be- some horse performance improves greatly with joint supplements - and as he is your gelding you intend to keep, the extra cost migh make both your lives more enjoyable.
Saddle - check it fits - try a different numnah - see if a different style suits him better.
As others have suggested schooling always helps make a horse nicer to ride - again watch him loose as he works at trot and canter, around bends and obstacles and observe how he moves - so you can see what ou have to work with. I suspect he carries that neck rather upside down and head rather high which never improves a ride and may need some lessons for you and him to try and overcome.
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