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Erick van Jaarsveld
I would like to get everyone's opinion on a claim that you don't need to have knowledge of bloodlines, strains, sire lines and dame lines or do studies on the ancestors of straight Egyptians or attend shows etc. to be able to breed Straight Egyptians of note. The only thing a breeder needs to know to breed Straight Egyptians is an extensive knowledge of conformation.

A lady in a Court case makes the claim. A friend of mine is involved.

Regards

Erick
Dieter
QUOTE (Erick van Jaarsveld @ May 24 2011, 05:08 AM) *
I would like to get everyone's opinion on a claim that you don't need to have knowledge of bloodlines, strains, sire lines and dame lines or do studies on the ancestors of straight Egyptians or attend shows etc. to be able to breed Straight Egyptians of note. The only thing a breeder needs to know to breed Straight Egyptians is an extensive knowledge of conformation.

A lady in a Court case makes the claim. A friend of mine is involved.

Regards

Erick


You can breed straight Egyptians without knowing anything and many "breeders" do just that. That's the "easy method". BUT, breeding WELL (sound, sane, solid horses that won't suffer debilitating consequences throughout their lives because the breeder was unwiling to put forth more effort) requires significantly more effort. Breeders using the "easy method" are not what can be considered SERIOUS BREEDERS.
Liz Salmon
I agree that they would not be considered serious breeders. It's amazing how many people I come across that don't know the bloodlines of their own horses !! Usually, because they keep them boarded with trainers or big farms.
classicarabs
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ May 24 2011, 03:22 PM) *
I agree that they would not be considered serious breeders. It's amazing how many people I come across that don't know the bloodlines of their own horses !! Usually, because they keep them boarded with trainers or big farms.


Or they will breed their horse because there are a lot of good names on the paper pedigree without any understanding of the desirable traits those horses possess and pass on. Everyone must start somewhere of course and no person or breeder starts out with all the answers and complete knowledge. It's always an evolution, even for serious breeders that have been doing it for a long time... However research, comprehensive knowledge and well-thought out breeding plans with vision and goals in mind is the only responsible way to even attempt to breed with success in my opinion. People breeding with narrow purposes, such as breeding only based on conformation will never succeed. "From War Horse, To Show Horse, To No Horse" Quote reference Asil Araber "The Noble Arabian Horse" Vol IV (The Asil Club, Inc.) pretty much sums it up!
JacqueB
QUOTE (Erick van Jaarsveld @ May 24 2011, 05:08 AM) *
I would like to get everyone's opinion on a claim that you don't need to have knowledge of bloodlines, strains, sire lines and dame lines or do studies on the ancestors of straight Egyptians or attend shows etc. to be able to breed Straight Egyptians of note. The only thing a breeder needs to know to breed Straight Egyptians is an extensive knowledge of conformation.

A lady in a Court case makes the claim. A friend of mine is involved.

Regards

Erick

If you have extensive knowledge on conformation and you want to breed anything, you need to know the conformation on the horses that contribute to the pedigree & the horses' conformation on the prospective breeding partners so you can try to minimize whatever you consider undesirable & get closer to what you want. That requires knowledge of bloodlines/sire lines/dam lines. Shows/races are a good way to see current representation of what bloodlines/sire/dam lines are producing & you need to be looking up the pedigrees of those showing to appreciate how the pedigree contributed to what you are seeing.
You can also go to farms & see the stallion(s) broodmares & several get.
Extensive knowledge of conformation is an important sector of information a breeder of any thing needs to know. But it's not enough on it's own. I don't think that breeders of race horses, cutting horses, warmbloods, for example, think that conformation information alone informs them of all they need to know if they are trying to breed something that would do well regionally, nationally.
Erick van Jaarsveld
It really sums it up, you are correct! My feeling is that with the relative small gene pool of Straight Egyptians compared to other Arabians; line breeding (in the broader sense) is inevitable. The real test is to get the nick (genetic vigour) between two horses. This makes the study of pedigrees even more important.

In my opinion the variations between foals will not be that different in your stud with Straight Egyptians than with an outcross, however to change your type or look of your Straight Egyptian stud, if you are not satisfied with the standard; will take more effort than with an outcross program. To do just this you will have to dig deep into research.

Breeding is a lifetime process! It is a view words, but it say a lot of the business.

Thanks to everybody’s input.

Regards

Erick
Erick van Jaarsveld
I agree! In the old days the racehorse industry had a term called good blood and bad blood. This was the time when the need arose to close the studbook to prevent further introduction of alien blood. Breeders soon realized that certain sire lines (Good Blood) excelled and the racehorse industry were soon left with only three sire lines. They were called the "Chiefs de Race" stallions or something like that. I can only remember two of the three stallions – Haroun and Eclipse. It is my opinion that this selection was due to the horses ability to run and not only conformation. If we look at Secretariat the greatest racehorse of all time – we will note that his front legs were not perfect. Conformation alone is not sufficient.

To bring this into perspective for Straight Egyptian breeders:

Ghazal was also not the perfect Arab, yet breeders with vision used him and he left Europe with a huge legacy. It must be said that noteworthy American breeders certainly had the opportunity to buy him in Egypt.

Regards

Erick van Jaarsveld
barbara.gregory
"I would like to get everyone's opinion on a claim that you don't need to have knowledge of bloodlines, strains, sire lines and dame lines or do studies on the ancestors of straight Egyptians or attend shows etc. to be able to breed Straight Egyptians of note. The only thing a breeder needs to know to breed Straight Egyptians is an extensive knowledge of conformation."

I think the important bit of this statement is "to be able to breed Straight Egyptians of note". Anyone with a straight Egyptian mare who is fertile and can carry a foal to term can breed a Straight Egyptians but without having a good mare and using a good, compatible Straight Egyptian stallion is very unlikely to breed a foal "of note" never mind "Straight Egyptians of note" in the plural so I would say that the statement is probably incorrect.

Barbara
Dieter
QUOTE (Erick van Jaarsveld @ May 25 2011, 02:56 AM) *
I agree! In the old days the racehorse industry had a term called good blood and bad blood. This was the time when the need arose to close the studbook to prevent further introduction of alien blood. Breeders soon realized that certain sire lines (Good Blood) excelled and the racehorse industry were soon left with only three sire lines. They were called the "Chiefs de Race" stallions or something like that. I can only remember two of the three stallions – Haroun and Eclipse.
Regards

Erick van Jaarsveld


Not to get off topic, but I think the three you are referring to might be Eclipse, Herod and Matchem.
Baraka
QUOTE (Erick van Jaarsveld @ May 24 2011, 05:08 AM) *
I would like to get everyone's opinion on a claim that you don't need to have knowledge of bloodlines, strains, sire lines and dame lines or do studies on the ancestors of straight Egyptians or attend shows etc. to be able to breed Straight Egyptians of note.


Anyone can put two horses together and produce a foal, but breeding without knowledge, is a huge gamble. If they happen to produce a good foal, it's nothing more than luck. It's also why it is so hard to find truly good horses. Too many people are doing just that. It's hard enough when you do have a background of knowledge, as genetics is a tricky science. Breeding blindly is very irresponsible.
jerelkerby
My experience has been some wrong turns, wrong advice (from the wrong people), good advice from some good people who had no financial interest in how, what, when where I did it. Much I will admit on this forum over the years. Thx to those of you out there for that.
I will admit I have spent hours and hours reading old books, new books, bloodlines, looking at horses from groups of those bloodlines. Listened to people who had bred SE's (more than a couple I thought tremendous) I admired ...from a few people I have known for years..... 10 plus and some that I actually met at Cadron Creek...some I met at shows, some at their farms and some here and there... EE being a pretty good place to see some great horses and now I like Las Vegas for the same reason as I see the influence that SE's have brought to the whole breed and vice versa with some of the positive influence say the polish bred, Spanish etc. etc.
I watched listened, read and read and read and looked at tones of pictures and videos and old VHS I could beg, borrow or whatever.
My experience is at times to see some small farms justt jump right off and bred and sell some Beautiful, tremendous SE's and some large farms breed in great numbers getting some beautiful, tremendous SE's, but IMO some I would not want to have to feed and or breed on.
Daphne and I went to our first "Breeders Conference" in August of last year which was a wealth of information. Information, Information, Information...
I won't say I am totally where I want to be yet, but let me tell you in this down economy.......... of the two fillies I had this year...only two foals we had this year. At 3 days old I got a call from Shwan Crews offering me $40,000.00 for that filly. I told Shawn I had not even seen her yet and did not want to make a decision then and after I saw her I would decide what I felt I would take for her. I saw her and decided I would either keep her or sell her at a higher price. Rememeber it was only two years ago we turned down $130,000.00 for Hey Baby, then late that same show had very prestigeous and I might and very wealthy breeders ofrom ME come to buy Hey Baby from us...we did not even get to discussion of price...we said we had turned down 130K earlier that week and they indicated that was not a problem as they could go much higher and said we would be happy with the price. I as polite as I could and with as much respect as I have for these breeders and large farm.....told them that we felt she was and would be the bulk of any success we would or could have and needed to keep her...(as well as the fact we bottle fed her and the first few days of her life she lived in our kitchen).
Then comes along this Simeon Sochain filly who is out of our Bint Shadenn and who's sire is Shahir and I about choke when I get an offer of $100,000.00 for her when she weans. Another ME buyer and not an offer from a broker, but a breeder. Now she has no TM/TD, but has such an exception look, movement thaat I decided that I would not sell her and to sell her mom and wait on her to make her the other pillar of our breeding program with Hey Baby. Next to or maybe right with her is the quality of this Sochain filly we have named DSA Jazz Dancer.
Now am I great, smart , wonderful...not really ...I feel that with the amount of reading, listening, watching and along with that some of God's grace and luck I might be getting close to where some others are and have been. I say this will a humble heart and yet a smile on my face to see what the future will bring us here at Dogwood Spings Arabians. One last thing ...I have bred a few that I had to near give away to a good home...so had my share of mistakes and lack of good luck.
Jerel Kerby....wishing all of the the best and wish I could get a great offer on one I wanted to sell....
this is Hey Baby's filly
Marilee
Putting two horses together either naturally or artificially MIGHT produce a foal or MIGHT produce a good foal or a healthy one or one who lives a long life or one who has good owner(s). There are those who breed only for the money to be made or the recognition to be said or the name on the foal's papers. With all the horses still needing homes everywhere and the amount of people still out of jobs and the economy as it is.... our Egyptian horses are still a rare treasure. Many great horses are not being bred right now, and their rare genetic past is not going to be carried forward, and that is a sadness with this economy, and with those who are careful of the numbers they produce and the potential home that is out there for their precious horse, either foal or mature male or female. Knowledge and education are the most important things, and the ability to look beyond dollar signs, for the horse's life-long welfare, far down the bridle path or trail. To produce that horse, yes, but to hope it has a long, productive (used, enjoyed, respected), healthy life. cool.gif

Wanted to add about "SE of note"--depends on who's note. I think many great horses are never seen in the show ring, and many great horses never have many foals, perhaps only one, perhaps none, due to circumstances, so to me it depends on who is determining their "worth or their value or what is of note". Money made (or lost) and numbers of get/produce are not an equal correlation to quality.
jsimicek@msn.com
Marilee, great post. I agree, a horse of " note" is subjective to whom is determining their worth. The use the horse is intended for is important to determining its worth also. Some want a great riding horse in one discipline, some a great halter horse and a few want a horse that can do it ALL, multiple disciplines under saddle and be a halter winner. etc. What some would consider a " SE of note" others would not take a second glance at.

Education is indeed key to breeding good horses for whatever purpose. But education comes from experience. No one starts out knowing all about bloodlines. They learn over time as they see different horses and discover what look and traits come with those lines. In the SE world there seems to be a lot of people that place more emphasis on the paper than the actual horse. Those who make breeding decisions by paper more than the individuals standing in the barn

Ideally one would have a balance of knowledge of what constitutes good, sound conformation for a horse, breed type and bloodlines. But if I had to choose only one of those to START with, I would rather someone know what constitutes good sound conformation. Someone that would breed for good solid conformation that would produce a useful horse versus someone that would breed for pedigree or pretty alone with no regard to the functional conformation of the horse. I think the large amount of leg faults seen in the SE's goes directly to breeding too much on pedigrees and not enough attention to conformation of the individuals being bred. With the tight gene pool we deal with, extra care must be given to avoiding the negative traits of inbreeding. The same bad leg fault bred to same fault just to set a desirable trait like a pretty face is not a good thing in my opinion regardless of how well the pedigrees match to produce a pretty foal. With the large amount of unwanted horses out there right now and the down economy, a sound functional horse that can be ridden is more likely to have safe, productive life than a famous pedigree with bad conformation. A sound, sane horse that can do a variety of things has a better chance at a home than one that is only good for one thing. Someone that comes from another horsey background and knows what makes a sound riding horse but does not yet know arabian blood lines can learn bloodlines. Some that study bloodlines only but never actually use a horse have no knowledge of what good conformation is or what is needed to sustain a horse through competition use. Some that I have talked to had no desire to learn conformation at all, feeling good bloodlines alone would produce a good individual.

A balance of knowledge in breeding decisions is the desired end, but I would be more likely to purchase a horse from a newbie that knew what a good sound horse should look like versus one that looks good on paper alone. There have been lots of times I have been intrigued by a pedigree on a horse but when I go to look at the individual, I am sorely disappointed in the horse itself. I have seen lots of well bred horses on paper that were walking conformation fault dictionaries in the flesh. However, whenever I have seen an outstanding looking individual and then gone on to inquire about the pedigree, I am rarely disappointed when I hear the pedigree and can see where it got its good looks and conformation.

But this is all subjective from my point of view alone based on what I want expect from a horse in my barn. I want horses that win in halter and ridden performance, another may not, and that is their privilege. Everyone should enjoy the horse in a way that pleases them, and we should encourage all to love and enjoy the arabian SE horse no matter their chosen area and offer education and friendship to new owner/sbreeders rather than scorn and criticism on their shortcomings as they start there fledgling efforts into SE horses.


JMO

Sandy
Anne-Louise
Sandy, I agree.
Anne-Louise
mckulley1
Well, that is an interesting claim.

Consider what they are saying....That to breed a Straight Egyptian of note (meaning a quality horse), one only needs to have extensive knowledge of correct conformation.

I frankly would prefer to hear THIS instead of the alternative which is that to breed a Straight Egyptian of note you only need to have an extensive knowledge of pedigrees! How many years have we complained about people breeding pieces of paper rather than looking at the actual horses?

If you only bred based on your version of correct conformation, then you would be certain to produce a solid, correct horse. BUT! With out understanding pedigrees, you would not be aware of which traits may be passed on or not, genetic diseases, etc.

Now, if this person is claiming that she has Straight Egyptian horses but because she does not study pedigrees, she is representing correct, solid Arabians who are NOT Straight Egyptian, then that is a huge problem.
julieM
There is no law that I know of, or license that provides someone with the right to breed. The act of breeding or being a horse breeder whatever the race, it a free act and can be undertaken by anyone. A hobby in most cases and a business if the person declares the earnings of sales.

The basis of any good breeder would first and formost be to have a thorough knowledge of horses and of course conformation. There is no or very little proof (and i am sure that i will upset some people, and i am sorry) of the matching of bloodines, sometimes they work and sometimes they dont.

The only obligation I think is to breed with registered horses(WAHO, approved studbooks and such)in most cases also be a member of a studbook of the country in which the breeder lives or breeds.If you wish to sell a horse that is considered as a pure bred arabian. Straight egyptian is something else and if used in publicity or advertising then the information of the bloodlines and the paperwork should be correct and correspond to the horse.

Most of the other information mentioned, especially going to shows or showing is certainly not a necessity when breeding. In fact in todays climate i would even go further to say, take it all with a pinch of salt.

Its a basic question, but you could create many answers, however it would be rather a waste of time to do this I think.

Juliem
julieM
Sorry Erik,

I forgot to yes its true you dont need to know anything to breed a horse, even a good one. it depends on the luck of the draw. It has happened before and it will happen again. (but it could cost alot of money and time to get a realy good one laugh.gif

Juliem
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