Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Maybe A Dumb Question.
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - ‹bersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
Pages: 1, 2
Gary Lee
Hey everyone. It's been a while. Been checking out those Abayyan lines slowly and surely. But somewhere a while back someone brought up that one of the tail female lines wasn't straight egyptian (don't ask me which one, I don't remember). In my search for answers I've asked just exactly how do you know a horse is straight egyptian. Of course I could buy data source and just go through each horse one by one until I got my answers because if I remember correctly it lists on there that they are straight egyptian. But until that day comes I'd like to know how everyone else finds that information preferably online because I don't have any of the books. I've been on the Al Khamsa website but I recently read that even Al Khamsa won't tell you if a horse is straight egyptian.

Any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your help. smile.gif
Nadj al Nur
Hi Gary........probably, the easiest thing for you to do would be just to ask on here if you are not sure about a particular horse, because without the books or access to Data Source, you would need a pretty extensive knowledge about bloodlines. Is there a particular horse you are not sure about ???
Cathy
Gary Lee
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 30 2011, 11:20 PM) *
Hi Gary........probably, the easiest thing for you to do would be just to ask on here if you are not sure about a particular horse, because without the books or access to Data Source, you would need a pretty extensive knowledge about bloodlines. Is there a particular horse you are not sure about ???
Cathy


Right now, no. I'm still in the process of going through all the strains and substrains and looking for what I need (which even if there were a faster way to do this, I'd still do this anyway. It's a good learning experience)

But when I get to the point where I and going through to find SE and non SE, I'll probably just buy a datasource package. I was just curious if there was any other way.
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 12:27 AM) *
Right now, no. I'm still in the process of going through all the strains and substrains and looking for what I need (which even if there were a faster way to do this, I'd still do this anyway. It's a good learning experience)

But when I get to the point where I and going through to find SE and non SE, I'll probably just buy a datasource package. I was just curious if there was any other way.

If there was a particular book I would recommend as a sort of primer in SEs and strains, it would be Judith Forbis' "The Classic Arabian" You can get it pretty inexpensively too, usually between 20 and 30 dollars through abebooks.com (on line) and worth every penny.
C
Gary Lee
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 01:06 AM) *
If there was a particular book I would recommend as a sort of primer in SEs and strains, it would be Judith Forbis' "The Classic Arabian" You can get it pretty inexpensively too, usually between 20 and 30 dollars through abebooks.com (on line) and worth every penny.
C


Excellent. I will write it in my notes and look it up on Amazon. I'm always looking for stuff that can help me through my search.
Cheryl L
The other 2 books that would be great to add to The Classic Arabian Horse....would be Judith Forbis' Authentic Arabian Bloodstock....books 1 and 2.......also known as the Blue Book and Gold Book. Those can be found on The Pyramid Society's website.
Gary Lee
Thanks Cheryl, I'll add those too biggrin.gif
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (Cheryl L @ Jul 31 2011, 08:45 AM) *
The other 2 books that would be great to add to The Classic Arabian Horse....would be Judith Forbis' Authentic Arabian Bloodstock....books 1 and 2.......also known as the Blue Book and Gold Book. Those can be found on The Pyramid Society's website.

I agree, those are both great books. Didn't mention them because they are so expensive, but they certainly are worth having.
C
Gary Lee
Actually, thinking about it, I think I have all three of those saved on my wish list on Amazon.... biggrin.gif

Another question,

Can anyone tell me the difference between BLUE LIST and BLUE STAR? I've already read the 12 page debate over how it's just a label and all that jazz. But for educational purposes and to be in the loop so if I'm questioned, I'll know. I'd like to know the difference and possibly any referrals to people or places that might provide me with more information?
Gary Lee
QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 09:02 AM) *
Actually, thinking about it, I think I have all three of those saved on my wish list on Amazon.... biggrin.gif

Another question,

Can anyone tell me the difference between BLUE LIST and BLUE STAR? I've already read the 12 page debate over how it's just a label and all that jazz. But for educational purposes and to be in the loop so if I'm questioned, I'll know. I'd like to know the difference and possibly any referrals to people or places that might provide me with more information?


Nevermind I found another thread with the answer to that biggrin.gif
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 09:02 AM) *
Actually, thinking about it, I think I have all three of those saved on my wish list on Amazon.... biggrin.gif

Another question,

Can anyone tell me the difference between BLUE LIST and BLUE STAR? I've already read the 12 page debate over how it's just a label and all that jazz. But for educational purposes and to be in the loop so if I'm questioned, I'll know. I'd like to know the difference and possibly any referrals to people or places that might provide me with more information?

Blue star is just Mrs. Ott's way of separating the Blue list horses she found to be without Munique blood. She put a star beside their name in her blue book....... (pretty simple huh, LOL )
Cathy
.
Cheryl L
Agreed on the Blue Star/List, it is that simple.

On the 2 books that I mentioned....yeah they are expensive, but they, like Classic, are very valuable educational tools. I purchased the "Blue Book" when it first came out.....I got the "Gold Book" 4 years ago.

Gary Lee
Well my search of the blue star/blue list information has to do with the horses that were included in Mrs. Ott's book. Since I want to do preservation of Abayyan strands, I think it's important to know because *Turfa (from what I've found) was included. But I've found *Mahraa horses that are labeled Blue Star... So... I'm confused there and until I can buy that book at $200... I'm clueless about the authenticity of *Mahraa and Blue Star.
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 10:30 AM) *
Well my search of the blue star/blue list information has to do with the horses that were included in Mrs. Ott's book. Since I want to do preservation of Abayyan strands, I think it's important to know because *Turfa (from what I've found) was included. But I've found *Mahraa horses that are labeled Blue Star... So... I'm confused there and until I can buy that book at $200... I'm clueless about the authenticity of *Mahraa and Blue Star.

OK.......now I am the one confused. Are you talking Mahraa or Marah ??
C
Nadj al Nur
Also.........Turfa is not officially listed as Abbeyan. I wish she was because I also have Abbeyans and I love her, There is one mention that she may have been Abbeyan but there is controversy over that.
C
Gary Lee
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 10:59 AM) *
OK.......now I am the one confused. Are you talking Mahraa or Marah ??
C


Mahraa
Gary Lee
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 11:04 AM) *
Also.........Turfa is not officially listed as Abbeyan. I wish she was because I also have Abbeyans and I love her, There is one mention that she may have been Abbeyan but there is controversy over that.
C


This is what I'm going off of saying that *Turfa is Abayyan. If it's incorrect then I dunno http://roster.alkhamsa.org/pedigrees2010/T/_Turfa00268.HTML

*Turfa
1933 gm 2133 AHR
Breeder: Sa'ud Royal Family

A Foundation Horse - see The Documentation, pp 120-225

Imported in 1937 to England as a gift to the royal family, imported to Canada c1941, and imported in 1941 to the USA by Henry Babson. Also called Tarfa.

NOTES: According to England's Arab Horse Society Stud Book Vol. 6 (1944), *Turfa's sire was an 'Ubayyan al-Hamrah and her dam was a Kuhaylat of al-Khurmah. Al-Khurmah is not a known substrain of the Kuhaylan, but it was a town where one of the studs of the Sa'ud royal family was located.
*Turfa's first registered owner was listed as Brig. Gen. W.H. Anderson, who was Executive Secretary of the Arab Horse Society, England, at the time. Her second owner was listed as H.B. Babson. Her Certificate of Transfer from Anderson to Babson, dated November 10, 1941, which is on file at the Arabian Horse Trust, agrees with the sire information and gives her dam as a Kuhaylat Ajuz "Al Khorma."
According to Raswan Index entry #10601, *Turfa's dam was an 'Ubayyah al-Hurmah of Ibn Musamih of the al-Hamrah 'Ajman, as was her sire.
(See photos p218)

Tail Female: *Turfa
Gary Lee
That being said, I understand theirs controversy about the strain of *Turfa....
Nadj al Nur
That's what I mean...........conflicting evidence.........Khorma sounds very much like Hurmah when pronounced in Arabic and this could be where the confusion comes from, but Khorma was not a substrain but the name of a place. She COULD be Abbeyan, but the jury is still out on that............
Cathy
Gary Lee
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 11:22 AM) *
That's what I mean...........conflicting evidence.........Khorma sounds very much like Hurmah when pronounced in Arabic and this could be where the confusion comes from, but Khorma was not a substrain but the name of a place. She COULD be Abbeyan, but the jury is still out on that............
Cathy


Could, to me, is enough for me to consider the line for preservation. Even if one day she proves not to be Abayyan, then at least I did my part to make sure it didn't die out and can pass it on to whoever will continue preserving that specific line later on. The way I see it is if I rule her out because of "could be" and it dies out and then one day the jury is like "YES, she was ABAYYAN!" Than I'll feel guilty because I should've done something... you know what I mean?
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 11:30 AM) *
The way I see it is if I rule her out because of "could be" and it dies out and then one day the jury is like "YES, she was ABAYYAN!" Than I'll feel guilty because I should've done something... you know what I mean?

Yes, I DO see, and even if she proves NOT to be Abbeyan, the Turfa lines do desperately need preserving, so I say "hats off to you" for doing it.
Cathy
Gary Lee
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 12:22 PM) *
Yes, I DO see, and even if she proves NOT to be Abbeyan, the Turfa lines do desperately need preserving, so I say "hats off to you" for doing it.
Cathy


Eventually doing it... I'm not in a position right now to own horses but will be by the end of next year.
DitaAlAnastasia
QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 08:25 PM) *
Eventually doing it... I'm not in a position right now to own horses but will be by the end of next year.

The same goes for me. Although I'm looking for old asil german lines. Dr. Olms had Imported "Shar Zarqa" and "Shar Duda" in the sixties, they both carry Turfa blood, they were meant to "preserve Turfa blood", but in tail female line they go back to the Davenport "Urfah". Seemingly this line is rare. There were daughters of these mares twice linebred with asil stallions carrying "Amurath Sahib *1932". Now seemingly we have here in germany asil mares, whith american motherline, Turfa and Amurath Sahib blood...(i want to find these...)

As for Blue List/Blue Star: Mrs.Ott had some funny ideas about not accepting some really pure Blunt horses,and the Miniqis, so the blue list in modern breeding is not anymore relevant,BUT: She was it who discovered that polish lines have holes, and started the discussion of Asil/non asil, in which Pyramid society etc. were founded. But in the USA many people still like the "Blue List" status as referring to "flawless pedigree".
Dieter
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 12:33 PM) *
Blue star is just Mrs. Ott's way of separating the Blue list horses she found to be without Munique blood. She put a star beside their name in her blue book....... (pretty simple huh, LOL )
Cathy

Except Nazeer had Munique blood . . . according to Gladys Brown Edwards . . . wasn't he considered Blue Star?

2mntn
QUOTE (Dieter @ May 4 2012, 04:11 PM) *
Except Nazeer had Munique blood . . . according to Gladys Brown Edwards . . . wasn't he considered Blue Star?


I can't put my hands on the Blue Catalog at the moment. Nazeer has at least three lines to Sabbah (APK) 1895 gs RAS-1.55 - a Ma'naqi Hudruji. Raswan had that information, so I imagine the Blue Catalog would have noted Nazeer as Blue List. Perhaps those lines to Ma'naqi (Munique) are responsible for his remarkable legacy. smile.gif
SKM
I recommend looking up all the references to Turfa on Edouard Al Dahdah's Daughterofthewind blog, to garner a lot more information. Here is just one of the interesting entries/discussions:
http://daughterofthewind.org/wordsmithing-...-turfas-strain/
karin
Very interesting topic this. Thank you for sharing your knowledge here. Even I have learned today!

Karin
Dieter
QUOTE (2mntn @ May 4 2012, 10:59 PM) *
I can't put my hands on the Blue Catalog at the moment. Nazeer has at least three lines to Sabbah (APK) 1895 gs RAS-1.55 - a Ma'naqi Hudruji. Raswan had that information, so I imagine the Blue Catalog would have noted Nazeer as Blue List. Perhaps those lines to Ma'naqi (Munique) are responsible for his remarkable legacy. smile.gif
Oh that's right - so hard to keep it straight. Luckily strains and preservation labels have nothing to do with breeding a good horse, and Nazeer was just a good horse that happened to be pure Egyptian when he was foaled in 1934 - long before Blue Star or Blue List came into creation. I am in total agreement with GBE when it comes to these things:
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Fairfax
Liz..you are so tiresome with your on going trashing of the Otts and the Blue Star/Blue List program.

No one has ever held your hand to the fire and stated YOU MUST call your horses by any of the above Labels.

Since you are "on to some GBE TRUTH" here is another for you..GBE SOLD OUT Perios

She was paid $75,000 for her library which she kept. (now owned by the museum)) and her job was to discredit ALL lines other than Polish. That included so many of the Blunt horses..she picked away at the weak conformation of the Egyptian Breed lines and also brought into question THEIR purity.

She did NOT believe in ANY STRAIN...calling them a fabrication of the over active mind of Raswan, Ott, Forbit, Mashiek, Hensley and so on.

Her volume of work took every opoportunity to also discredit Polish lines NOT belonging to the PBA (Polish Breeders Association) of which Lasma was one of the founding members--they paid for her trips to Poland in exchange for EXCELLENT REVIEWS on the horses they purchased...they also paid for her library.


No one has ever started the Otts were perfect and most of us acknowledge that if Miss Jane was well, she would make corrections. They spent THEIR OWN MONEY to create the program

You...well....you most certainly have done nothing considerable. Of course Hansi and a couple of others will rush to your defence regarding your alleged program..and its excellencve...

I, like many others wait with "baited breath" for your show ring, eventning or even racing successes.

Leo
HLM
QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 6 2012, 09:54 PM) *
Liz..you are so tiresome with your on going trashing of the Otts and the Blue Star/Blue List program.

No one has ever held your hand to the fire and stated YOU MUST call your horses by any of the above Labels.

Since you are "on to some GBE TRUTH" here is another for you..GBE SOLD OUT Perios

She was paid $75,000 for her library which she kept. (now owned by the museum)) and her job was to discredit ALL lines other than Polish. That included so many of the Blunt horses..she picked away at the weak conformation of the Egyptian Breed lines and also brought into question THEIR purity.

She did NOT believe in ANY STRAIN...calling them a fabrication of the over active mind of Raswan, Ott, Forbit, Mashiek, Hensley and so on.

Her volume of work took every opoportunity to also discredit Polish lines NOT belonging to the PBA (Polish Breeders Association) of which Lasma was one of the founding members--they paid for her trips to Poland in exchange for EXCELLENT REVIEWS on the horses they purchased...they also paid for her library.


No one has ever started the Otts were perfect and most of us acknowledge that if Miss Jane was well, she would make corrections. They spent THEIR OWN MONEY to create the program

You...well....you most certainly have done nothing considerable. Of course Hansi and a couple of others will rush to your defence regarding your alleged program..and its excellencve...

I, like many others wait with "baited breath" for your show ring, eventning or even racing successes.

Leo



Hi Leo

I cant find a post here to which you refer to cutting Liz to pieces. I thought we all are entitled to our opinions which are not always that of others.
.
I am glad you again give your knowledge of GBE. We were very good friends and I enjoyed her being our guest of honor in Ocala, Fl, years ago. Some of us do not have the knowledge you have regarding her library, etc.etc. all I know that I saw it under spider webs at the Ahra ARCHIVE IN 1994(1995), as others did in our Al Khamsa group. We were told, we are the only ones seeing this archive.

Gladis told Bill and me that she always wanted a real horse, only had a wooden rocking horses when very young. I found that most interesting. Cant remember this too well, but was it not you who said that she was rider,driver, or was it someone else. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Hansi
Dieter
QUOTE (HLM @ May 7 2012, 07:17 AM) *
Hi Leo

I cant find a post here to which you refer to cutting Liz to pieces. I thought we all are entitled to our opinions which are not always that of others. (snipped)

Hansi

Hi Hansi,

I don't see that post either Hansi. blink.gif

Normally, personal attacks and insults come from someone when they are on the losing end of a debate. wink.gif

Hope you are well. wub.gif

Hugs,

Liz
HLM
QUOTE (Dieter @ May 7 2012, 02:47 PM) *
Hi Hansi,

I don't see that post either Hansi. blink.gif

Normally, personal attacks and insults come from someone when they are on the losing end of a debate. wink.gif

Hope you are well. wub.gif

Hugs,

Liz



thanks Liz, for a moment I thought my eyes really let me down, that I overlooked it.

Take care
hansi.
Fairfax
GBE wrote the book standard on Wire Haired Terriers.

Hansi..I am very familar with GBE's library and the information behind it. Gladys had NO MONEY..period...again.. NO MONEY...as a matter of fact she was fortunate that a few helped her out financially...and that is why she agreed to become the "minister or propoganda" for the Polish Breeders Group.

Many articles in the World were very anti Crabbet, Skowronek and his descendants, ... (forgetting that Lasma/Bask became famous breeding to those inbred mares) and any Egyptian group. I believe it was GBE who stated she would love to see a straight egyptian that was not calf kneed or sickle hocked. Don Ford took her to task on that one...

GBE wrote over and over and over that lack of validity regarding any strains..and of course she hated the Otts and Raswan.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion Hansi...I agree...so why is it you request so many threads be closed by the moderators...and Liz...most posts of yours regarding Blue Star and or the Otts are downright nasty...as are your posts towards those of us who defend them (not that they need any defending).

Liz has NEVER posted ANY accomplishment...I am sure there must be some...but then...of course you are entitled to your privacy if you have nothing to post.

Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (HLM @ May 7 2012, 01:17 PM) *
Hi Leo

I cant find a post here to which you refer to cutting Liz to pieces. I thought we all are entitled to our opinions which are not always that of others.
.
I am glad you again give your knowledge of GBE. We were very good friends and I enjoyed her being our guest of honor in Ocala, Fl, years ago. Some of us do not have the knowledge you have regarding her library, etc.etc. all I know that I saw it under spider webs at the Ahra ARCHIVE IN 1994(1995), as others did in our Al Khamsa group. We were told, we are the only ones seeing this archive.

Gladis told Bill and me that she always wanted a real horse, only had a wooden rocking horses when very young. I found that most interesting. Cant remember this too well, but was it not you who said that she was rider,driver, or was it someone else. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Hansi


I sincerely hope that Leo has the correct information about GBE with regard to her background with horses. I personally find it disconcerting to think that someone who has had such an impact on the Arabian breed and as much influence on some Arabian horse breeders as GBE has, would never have owned a real, living horse. Quite disappointing, that thought.That's not to say that people who have not had personal experience with a subject cannot be qualified, through study and exposure to teach. On the other hand horses in general, but Arabian horses in particular, have such complex personalites, intellect and emotions -- and at least as much individuality as human beings, that I just have to believe that someone who has never owned an Arabian horse and cared for it could not have the benefit of a full out understanding of this breed.
Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (DitaAlAnastasia @ May 4 2012, 03:07 PM) *
The same goes for me. Although I'm looking for old asil german lines. Dr. Olms had Imported "Shar Zarqa" and "Shar Duda" in the sixties, they both carry Turfa blood, they were meant to "preserve Turfa blood", but in tail female line they go back to the Davenport "Urfah". Seemingly this line is rare. There were daughters of these mares twice linebred with asil stallions carrying "Amurath Sahib *1932". Now seemingly we have here in germany asil mares, whith american motherline, Turfa and Amurath Sahib blood...(i want to find these...)

As for Blue List/Blue Star: Mrs.Ott had some funny ideas about not accepting some really pure Blunt horses,and the Miniqis, so the blue list in modern breeding is not anymore relevant,BUT: She was it who discovered that polish lines have holes, and started the discussion of Asil/non asil, in which Pyramid society etc. were founded. But in the USA many people still like the "Blue List" status as referring to "flawless pedigree".


Thinking back, the first reference that I recall which called the Polish lines into question (regarding exclusive desertbred descent), was well before the Ott's time. I believe that it was referenced by Count Potocki himself in a comment he made to Lady Anne Blunt. I'm unable to get to my books to double check the details at the moment, but my recollection is that when Lady Anne approached the Count with the idea of participating in a preservation movement for pure desert bred Arabians (Dr. Branch and Kemal El Din had also apprached Lady Anne with a perservation plan), that the Count responded that there were no horses bred in the Polish stud for which he could quarantee such exclusive heritage. Later, Raswan received information on the pedigree of Skowronek which he made public -- and I believe that the Otts assumed that position as per Raswan.
M.D.
QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 8 2012, 04:26 AM) *
I sincerely hope that Leo has the correct information about GBE with regard to her background with horses. I personally find it disconcerting to think that someone who has had such an impact on the Arabian breed and as much influence on some Arabian horse breeders as GBE has, would never have owned a real, living horse. Quite disappointing, that thought.That's not to say that people who have not had personal experience with a subject cannot be qualified, through study and exposure to teach. On the other hand horses in general, but Arabian horses in particular, have such complex personalites, intellect and emotions -- and at least as much individuality as human beings, that I just have to believe that someone who has never owned an Arabian horse and cared for it could have the benefit of a full out understanding of this breed.


--------
Fairfax
My information regarding GBE is correct and was confirmed many times to me by the LaCroix's. I attended numerous Polish sales where GBE was in attendance with the LaCroix, all expenses paid.

I am not sure if GBE owned an Arabian at one time..for some reason I do recall something about her mother owning one. GBE did work for Kellogg and had the opportunity, the eye and the journalistic ability to produce a volume of work regarding the breed. Her observations and her book from War Horse to Show Horse are a MUST READ for any serious Arabian Horse owner.

GBE HATED Raswan. Kellogg HATED Raswan. There is no question there is bad blood. Kellogg group stated Raswan killed the stallion of the same name. Raswan and two stable boys claimed the horse got loose and severed a tendon on some machinery that was in a paddock or field.

Putting the journalistic work of GBE, Raswan and Ott under a microscope with the knowledge we have via the internet and easy travel and communication, I am sure all parties would make significant changes to their research. GBE's defined her importance when she disputed Ridgeways Libyan theory on the foundation of the Arabian Horse.

I think ALL of their works are important for their validity "at the time they were produced" as compared to a person starting a Face Book page against preservation breeders. Right Liz?
Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 04:36 PM) *
My information regarding GBE is correct and was confirmed many times to me by the LaCroix's. I attended numerous Polish sales where GBE was in attendance with the LaCroix, all expenses paid.

I am not sure if GBE owned an Arabian at one time..for some reason I do recall something about her mother owning one. GBE did work for Kellogg and had the opportunity, the eye and the journalistic ability to produce a volume of work regarding the breed. Her observations and her book from War Horse to Show Horse are a MUST READ for any serious Arabian Horse owner.

GBE HATED Raswan. Kellogg HATED Raswan. There is no question there is bad blood. Kellogg group stated Raswan killed the stallion of the same name. Raswan and two stable boys claimed the horse got loose and severed a tendon on some machinery that was in a paddock or field.

Putting the journalistic work of GBE, Raswan and Ott under a microscope with the knowledge we have via the internet and easy travel and communication, I am sure all parties would make significant changes to their research. GBE's defined her importance when she disputed Ridgeways Libyan theory on the foundation of the Arabian Horse.

I think ALL of their works are important for their validity "at the time they were produced" as compared to a person starting a Face Book page against preservation breeders. Right Liz?


Thank you Leo, that's good to know. I have heard that Kellog hated Raswan and about the issue regarding the death of the stallion -- so unfortunate. I agree with you that any past research, if put under a microscope, would indicate some need for revision -- yet all is extremely important because together these things have created an invaulable pathway for serious breeders.

Starting a Face Book page against preservation breeders? Who would do such a thing? Not everyone has to be a preservation breeder -- in fact, certainly not all breeders SHOULD be preservationists...and if one believes that preserving the genetic roots of the breed has no merit they surely don't have to participate. But a movement against preservation? I've never known of this happening in any field -- art, architecture, history, or breeding. Further, why would someone who was "against" preservation breeding participate in a forum for SE Arabians? The PS is a preservation organization, as is the EAO in Egypt. Its a free society, and people can do what they wish, but to be against preservation doesn't make any sense to me.
HLM
QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 03:36 PM) *
My information regarding GBE is correct and was confirmed many times to me by the LaCroix's. I attended numerous Polish sales where GBE was in attendance with the LaCroix, all expenses paid.

I am not sure if GBE owned an Arabian at one time..for some reason I do recall something about her mother owning one. GBE did work for Kellogg and had the opportunity, the eye and the journalistic ability to produce a volume of work regarding the breed. Her observations and her book from War Horse to Show Horse are a MUST READ for any serious Arabian Horse owner.

GBE HATED Raswan. Kellogg HATED Raswan. There is no question there is bad blood. Kellogg group stated Raswan killed the stallion of the same name. Raswan and two stable boys claimed the horse got loose and severed a tendon on some machinery that was in a paddock or field.

Putting the journalistic work of GBE, Raswan and Ott under a microscope with the knowledge we have via the internet and easy travel and communication, I am sure all parties would make significant changes to their research. GBE's defined her importance when she disputed Ridgeways Libyan theory on the foundation of the Arabian Horse.

I think ALL of their works are important for their validity "at the time they were produced" as compared to a person starting a Face Book page against preservation breeders. Right Liz?



Leo
I think there is a difference between hearsay or being with a person and such talking. Gladys spent with Bill and I here in Florida early 80ties 4 days and we talked about a lot.Indeed, she was not rich .When she returned form us someone had turned off her electric and all her food was ruined, and the stenge in her little house terrible. She called me and supected certain people who might not have liked her sponsoring with her "guest of Honor"" presenting EGyptian Arabians. Her electric ill was paid. I flew her in from California and we had a wonderful time.. we helped her financially to recover the losses she took.

Every year when I was in Scottsdale or Alberquqy we met and talked. So I do have a bit of inside information and this strays away from some which you claim Leo. I dont know who hated or liked who. therefore can not make a judgment or even an assumptions. The same goes for all of us, and if Liz does not like the Otts, she has a good reason. While at one time I was not familiar with your equine knowledge, I dont think you are with Liz Dieter's. She bred and breeds some excellent SEs, is a very knowledgeable horsebreeder and most of all" says it as it is" refraining from lies or the likes.
I consider her very trustworthy.

I also never heard anybody wanting to harm/hurt or belittle the "Preservationist, the opposite is true, many till todate sacrifice all they have for it.

I think a little more understanding would be helful, rather than tearing some people to pieces or furthering hearsay.
If one does not like post, one should not read it!

BTH what Egyptian horses have you owned and had knowledge with? I still dont know.

Have a great day
Hansi
Fairfax
My involvement with S.E. is actually traced to two individuals Char Rabdan owned by Merle Stier and Serenity Inshalla owned byi Verna Dyer.Both were friends of mine.. Verna passed away last year and Merle many years ago.

Of course Eleanor McColley R Farm and I were very close and after the USDA told her to kill all of her Arabians due to SCIDS contamination..she ventured into S.E.'s...but her heart wasn't in it. I spent one season with Richard Pritlaff and knew his horses and was blessed with riding many of them.

I spoke with GBE on numerous occasions and I think that Gene (Junior) discussing the book sale to their "association for Polish breeders/Lasma" with Gladys present is about as close as it can get. The Polish sales I attended where GBE was present were in Poland and the Lasma Sales.

I ahve always respected your requests of information as to the sucess of my Arabians and my proof of my statements but Liz has NEVER answered ONE QUESTION from me...taking the 5th...saying it was private

Oh...Hansi......Liz is the founder of the We hate Preservation Breeders Group with 3 members. I am sure after this has now come to light she will be quickly removing it from Face Book.

My involvement with the Arabian breed does not rival yours on numbers and successes however it equally spans yours for duration...and I suspect trumps yours for duration via family..mine goes back prior to 1876 in Europe
HLM
QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 07:41 PM) *
My involvement with S.E. is actually traced to two individuals Char Rabdan owned by Merle Stier and Serenity Inshalla owned byi Verna Dyer.Both were friends of mine.. Verna passed away last year and Merle many years ago.

Of course Eleanor McColley R Farm and I were very close and after the USDA told her to kill all of her Arabians due to SCIDS contamination..she ventured into S.E.'s...but her heart wasn't in it. I spent one season with Richard Pritlaff and knew his horses and was blessed with riding many of them.

I spoke with GBE on numerous occasions and I think that Gene (Junior) discussing the book sale to their "association for Polish breeders/Lasma" with Gladys present is about as close as it can get. The Polish sales I attended where GBE was present were in Poland and the Lasma Sales.

I ahve always respected your requests of information as to the sucess of my Arabians and my proof of my statements but Liz has NEVER answered ONE QUESTION from me...taking the 5th...saying it was private

Oh...Hansi......Liz is the founder of the We hate Preservation Breeders Group with 3 members. I am sure after this has now come to light she will be quickly removing it from Face Book.

My involvement with the Arabian breed does not rival yours on numbers and successes however it equally spans yours for duration...and I suspect trumps yours for duration via family..mine goes back prior to 1876 in Europe


Leo
Please dont lets get into who's family pedigree is longer/ I have not been on facebook, dont write on it and cant believe that Liz would hate preservationist, when she herself is one for decades.. She is also not obliged to give out any data, unless she feels to do so. May be I misintreped, but to me you come on very strong in your opinions cutting some of our people to pieces, and entering your disgust under a topic references cant be found under it.

We SE/Asil breeders are ONE FAMILY! We might argue among us but resent outsiders do it, as it effects all of us.
We then stick together.

BTW We are a private quarantine for the USDA here and checking with them I ascertained they there are no records the USDA telling breeders to kill horses with a genetic defect. The USDA only demands detruction when it is an infectious decease, which SCID IS NOT!.If the lady was unhappy with an egyptan Arabian Arabian Horse she should have discarded it. Please tell me now which USDA branch gave the instructions to kill SCID infected horses, so that our Dep.t here in Florida can check it out.

Unless I misunderstand you, you appear to dislike Egyptian horses and accuse others of it. For instance Glady Brown Edwards highly respected them, and was honored that we invited her as our Guest of honor at one of our sales, which were ONLY Ses or Egyptian breds, sired by our SE stallions. she had ample time to look at each one at our farm and stated that she really likes these horses. Also said she liked the Pritzlaff,Gleanloch and Babson Arabians. Now, if she disliked Egyptians that much, she would have refused out invitation.

I trust that we can now continue in a constructive manner.

Hansi
Fairfax
Hansi

I am SHOCKED that you, of all people, would not know the very famous R Farm Eleanor McColley. I am further SHOCKED that you would not know that when SCIDS started we did NOT know what it was..and the USDA did advise breeders to eliminate their herds as it was a contagious and infectious disease.

She complied after having over 50% dead foals for two or three years. I know the feeling.

I am, however happy, that the S.E.brteeders are a big happy family,

I know you will no longer accuse those "ugly seven" of any conspiracy and I know you will not ask to have ANY thread closed and locked and you will NOT ask for any person or breeder to be banned from a forum or any S.E. type club.

Hansi..pardon me but I guess you will have to go looking through the Arabian Horse World when she stated everything WRONG with the S.E. breeders, their programs and their weedy horses. That was when Don Ford took great umbrage and had a letter to her printed.

She was critical of Martin "wasting" his Bask daughters on his S.E. stallions in the Amurath program.

I amj sure Gladys had a wonderful PAID FOR trip to your farms.

I liked and respected GBE and I enjoyed all of her research. I disagreed with her regarding Raswan and Otts but that was subjective and had nothing to do with her books however it did have a lot to do with her ongoing assaults in Letters to the Editor at the World.

I don't think I have cut many of the S.E. "members" to pieces. As a matter of fact I speak with some of them on a regular basis...many who do not grace this or other forums with their written word.

I do state to Liz that her ongoing ATTACKS against Raswan and Ott is TIRESOME. No more..no less... I remember when you DEMANDED OF ME that I produce what I had done. And yet, when I just ask Liz about ANYTHING she MIGHT have bred, written, produced...the silence is deafening.

And each time YOU come to her defense singing her praises..

Byi the way....GBE HATED Sakr, thought Nazeer was weedy, said Fol Yasmin had no action and should be gelded ...did think Serenity Sonbolah was one of the prettiest mares in the world and did comment on that, numerous times but she did point out that you did not breed her and never produced anything to match her quality. (I wouldn't take that as an insult as she said the same about Ariwistawa who was the first double National Champion mare...straight Polish..owned by Williamson of Kelowna).

GBE and Pritzlaff had a healthy respect for each other...like two strange cats sharing the same kitty litter box. She did like some of his crosses with the Doye bred mares and thought it improved his herd even though it altered the program. On that, they were both in total agreement and Richard didn't care about PS or any other group.

She did like the Babson horses and also those of HMR breeding

Back to Liz...why don't you ask her on this forum if she has or HAD a FB page with three members that was anti preservation breeding/////,,,,,

GBE also would have supported your criticism of the S.E. breeers who only show halter and do not do anything with their horses. That is why she was also able to defend the Polish breeders .

I did have Aswan in my pedigrees through my Russian imported stallion *Luxxor who also sired race winners.

Since many have commented to me about the Facebook page founded by Liz I am sure that is why Liz is remaining very quiet and hoping this just goes away.
Fairfax
P.S. Eleanor owned Ibn Mirage and crossed him on the Raffles line
Nadj al Nur
here is a link to Liz' Facebook group for you Hansi. The group is called "The Anti Preservation Arabian Horse League"
http://www.facebook.com/groups/35959146076...15270878496940/
Fairfax
Liz Dieter updated the description.
This group has been created for Arabian horse owners who do not embrace the "preservation" breeding mentality for whatever reason. We hope you'll share your dignified thoughts, opinions and suggestions. Welcome!


Liz Dieter Personally, I believe preservation breeding has absolutely nothing to do with breeding a good horse, which should ALWAYS come ahead of simply preserving anything because if it's not a good horse, what is the point in preserving it? Am I wrong?

Liz Dieter created the group.
Yesterday at 11:59am


What a strange group for Liz Dieter to create especially when preservation breeding includes Straight Egyptian

The Anti-Preservation Arabian Horse League


The title of the group surely says it all.


Hi Hansi,

I don't see that post either Hansi.

Normally, personal attacks and insults come from someone when they are on the losing end of a debate.

Hope you are well.
This is the above post from Liz.

I guess stating she continues to attack the Otts etc is now a personal attack but the Anti Preservation League is not...

Perhaps Liz will come forth and defend her premise. I do believe Miss Jane and Mrs. Ott would defend her as they also stated that just because a horse was designated Blue Star didn't mean it was of quality to produce. Just purity.

Strange how it would appear that Liz is on one hand attacking preservation breeding while at the same time agreeing with the Otts meanwhile posting on a forum dedicated to preserving the straight Egyptian breeding.

Quote from Hansi:

We SE/Asil breeders are ONE FAMILY! We might argue among us but resent outsiders do it, as it effects all of us.
We then stick together.


There apopears to be a chink in the armour


MHuprich
QUOTE (HLM @ May 8 2012, 02:34 PM) *
...
We SE/Asil breeders are ONE FAMILY! We might argue among us but resent outsiders do it, as it effects all of us.
We then stick together.

...Hansi


So sorry to hear you say you resent outsiders. I assume you are really speaking on your own behalf, not on as a represntative speaking for the whole group of SE/Asil breeders. Many of the SE/Asil I know would not even like the term "outsider" - that very term of outsider defines the various cliques and elitism that push people away from SE horses.

And, frankly, I see very llittle of the "stick together" attitude from some SE/Asil breeders - actually some of them personify the very opposite. And that is to the detriment of our wonderful Arabians.

Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (MHuprich @ May 8 2012, 11:07 PM) *
So sorry to hear you say you resent outsiders. I assume you are really speaking on your own behalf, not on as a represntative speaking for the whole group of SE/Asil breeders. Many of the SE/Asil I know would not even like the term "outsider" - that very term of outsider defines the various cliques and elitism that push people away from SE horses.

And, frankly, I see very llittle of the "stick together" attitude from some SE/Asil breeders - actually some of them personify the very opposite. And that is to the detriment of our wonderful Arabians.


Very well stated. I would like my name scratched from the virtual "we" list--- and I very much dislike the term "outsider" for what it implies. Isn't that the essence of a clique? Sticking together should refer to working together through respect and compromise in order to improve the state of Arabian horse breeding -- which should be a common goal for all serious Arabian breeders, not just SE breeders. Sticking together, as in ganging up on an "intruder", is old-school behavior which is by no means productive, and indeed has turned away many over the years.
Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 10:58 PM) *
Liz Dieter created the group.
Yesterday at 11:59am


What a strange group for Liz Dieter to create especially when preservation breeding includes Straight Egyptian

The Anti-Preservation Arabian Horse League


<snip>
There apopears to be a chink in the armour


The Anti-Preservation Arabian Horse League??? Wow.
Dieter
QUOTE (HLM @ May 8 2012, 11:27 AM) *
I think there is a difference between hearsay or being with a person and such talking. (snipped) The same goes for all of us, and if Liz does not like the Otts, she has a good reason. While at one time I was not familiar with your equine knowledge, I dont think you are with Liz Dieter's. She bred and breeds some excellent SEs, is a very knowledgeable horsebreeder and most of all" says it as it is" refraining from lies or the likes. I consider her very trustworthy.

I think a little more understanding would be helful, rather than tearing some people to pieces or furthering hearsay.
If one does not like post, one should not read it!

Have a great day
Hansi

Dear Hansi,

Please don't feel the need to defend me. Leo can rant and rave, dig and insult and dance on his head if he wants to - I'm sure Karin won't mind, the forum itself might take some glee in it - lol. Caryn or whomever can dance with him too. There is no need for me to reply to him or anyone who is grabbing at straws and doing their level best to draw me in to a game of cat and mouse. It makes me chuckle to watch the different ways they go about it. Besides, I've always wanted my very own stalker cool.gif And this will be okay I think for these people to spread whatever it is they think or want others to think about me without a word from me - as if they were the first tongue.gif- lol. This is exactly how the big rumor mongers get their malicious start on a small breeder hoping to tear them to shreds. I say let them eat cake and do as ever they wish! I will be amused.

If anyone truly wants to know me, my intentions or my business, they will have to message me or perhaps do what hundreds of others have done and call me. But it should be known I do not judge others based on their presumed accomplishments. There is a lot more to a person's character than that and when it comes down to the nitty gritty, personal character is what it is all about.

Kind Regards,

Liz Dieter
JEVA Farms LLC


Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ May 8 2012, 11:40 PM) *
here is a link to Liz' Facebook group for you Hansi. The group is called "The Anti Preservation Arabian Horse League"
http://www.facebook.com/groups/35959146076...15270878496940/


Quote Liz Dieter: "Basically, it means people who do not limited themselves when it comes to breeding or owning horses to a specific label. It is being inclusive of bloodlines, rather than exclusive and it is recognizing the value of outcrosses. That can ra...nge from breeding domestic arabians, to half-arabians, to crossing spanish on egyptian or polish with russian or any variety of those things. It's about breeding first and foremost, a really good horse, finding out what works and what doesn't and sharing that information with others. Does that make sense?"

No, it really doesn't -- something seems to be missing from the logic here. In order to have "outcrosses", you first need preservation of bloodgroups. That is really the whole purpose of preservation -- to maintain genetic subgroups within the general population so that at some time such subgroups (concentrated genetic material of a particular kind) can be tapped into to serve as an outcross source for entirely open groups, highly diverse groups, or different subgroups. Does anyone here know about the history of growing and maintaining fine vineyards? About how the master wine makers carried a piece of the root of their cherished grape vine from the old country to start vineyards in a new country? Old-world grapevines were interplanted alongside the native grapevines of the new land, creating delightful hybrid grapes. However, a piece of the oringal old-world root was always cherished, protected and kept viable -- because it was understood that without it, there could be no later infusion of the original source when the character of the hybrid grape began to wane.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.