I got into a discussion today about the temperament of some of the foundation horses who have long since passed on. I would be interested to learn more about the personalities of these horses that are no longer with us. I would also like to know which horses were ridden, what disciplines, etc.

I was a little nervous about starting htis thread, because I didn't want to start a dispute about bloodlines...But I also know, that as a relatively new breeder (last ten years) there are many great horses of the past that I never had a chance to meet and learn about personally. What you do learn often doesn't center on the personality of these horses, but who produced what and what conformational traits each had and passed on.

Temperament is important to me, and I also would like to see more of our Egyptians under saddle, and I would LOVE to see more bred to be family horses. That's not to say I don't love a good show horse but I have natural concern with the direciton we take this breed.

I know that I probably haven't been very specific, and I don't want to ask just about stallions,although naturally those are the ones with more available information and that they would have more exposure, so to start things off (and please don't feel you have to stick with this list....I'd like to hear about any foundation sire or dam....)

Ansata Ibn Halima
Ramses Fayek
Ruminaja Ali
Morafic
Fabah
Ibn Moniet El Nefous
TheEgyptianPrince
Sameh
Sultann
Fabah
Alaa El Din
Ansata Imperial
Shaikh Al Badi

Moniet El Nefous
Halima
Maaroufa
Bahila (By the way, I'm trying to find a picture of this mare....as the dam of The Minstril, I thought it would be quite easy, but I was wrong )
Yashmak
Taleeba
Dalia


And so on and so on...my mare list is especially lacking

Thanks! Angela

I twice talked to Ibn Moniet El Nefous and he was a gentle and kind creature. I liked him very much. I never experienced Morafic in the flesh but "Ib" had a lot of his sire's attitude and presence but was of a soft demeanor. I suppose he inherited this from his dam, Moniet El Nefous.

Thanks for the reply! I was beginning to think it wasn't a good question Thanks...Angela

I am sure Hansi knew many from your list and Phanilah can dig into detail with Ansata Imperial.
I had some nice experiences with Ansata bn Halima and I can assure you everything what was said about his lovely disposition is nothing but the truth. He was a puppy. A sweet puppy. A small sweet very lovely puppy. Not a mean bone in this horse. He looked and acted not like a stallion, in fact in his stall he looked more like a mare (some of his sons inherited this look and behaviour from him). He wasn't a fighter nor a war-horse but a little doll and calm and quiet all the time. He never was angry for a second. He never showed the fiery spirit of other famous stallions but for disposition he was the one to rely on.

Though he does not appear on your list I regard Ibn Hafiza as a foundation horse, too. He was much like Ibn Halima disposition wise but completely different in his self-assured behavior. He was a stallion through and through but very kind and noble. Late in his years he suffered from severe illness and when I visited him he obviously was in pain but nevertheless interacted in a kind way with me and his groom. It was then when I realized how different Arabian horses are and Ibn Hafiza tought me to see deeper into a horse and regognize and appreciate a different kind of beauty: the inner beauty of a horse that is more important than any pretty face.

I really like this thread...and I hope to learn something about this foundattion horses, because I´m also someone who never had the chance to meet this horses !!!

regards
Babette

SOUFIAN
(Alaa El Din x Moniet El Nefous)
Polly Knoll photo

Is any comment on Soufian okay? I am not in the position to talk about
him as his groom or his daily caretaker. I just visited with him some times.

Well, he never was my cup of tea in regard to body and type and I didn't like
that he often passed on the "human eye" to his get . Well, then came
the day I met him for the very first time and he won me over with the blink
of an eye. I had seen photos and videos but hey, here he was, he stood
in front of me and was used at Gleannloch as a teasing stallion. Like
a statue he stood there, he just lifted one of his hint legs. That was it.
No rearing, no trumping, nothing. Just silence. I followed him back to the
stall and talked about him with Mindi Reid, the trainer/manager at Gleannloch.
Soufian was an elderly horse at that time and looked very
thin and began to show his age but in his eyes glow a certain wisdom
and kindness. And kind he was. I sat for some hours in his stall and hugged
him and gave him strokes. I liked it and I hope he liked it, too.
Mindi came by several times and asked what the hell I did there with Soufian,
she had so many young horses she wanted to show me. But here I was with
the old horse that I didn't particularly liked from the distance and was completely
under his spell.
In his youth he was ridden regularly but I don't know anything about his
ability as a performance horse. What I do know is that he was a very kind
creature and was dearly loved and respected by all who cared for him.
They had some Mexican grooms at Gleannloch and Soufian obviously was
one of their favourites. There were better conformed stallions and stallions
that gained more influence than Soufian, but I liked him for his kind spirit.

What a beautifull story about Soufian
It did bring me a warm feeling of happines and joy, thank you. He does sound like a speciel horse.

I am sure Beth can add her comments on Ansata Imperial
better known as "Imp" to his many friends...

Oh - stop - I found Beth's description of Ansata Imperial in
an older thread:



ANSATA IMPERIAL
(Ansata Ibn Sudan x Ansata Delilah)
Scott Trees photo

This is what Beth wrote about him:



And here is the link to more info about "Imp".

Also a video of him available in the VIDEO section!

I am very pleased and touched to read the posts so far And please, I didn't even begin to mention all the foundation horses, it was just my way of getting things started; I have thought of many since I wrote that post....Please keep it up! This is a great learning experience and an enjoyable thread.

Angela

I extensively showed my stallion in the 80's. He was a double Ibn Halima grandson and I echo your sentiments about the disposition. My stallion was the kindest, sweetest boy. He would seek us out to play a game, was always affectionate but his spirit is what I regard the most. He was undefeated in liberty for four years running. During his liberty performances, he would seek out the people on the rail, prancing and dancing. He lived for applause and he filled my heart deeply.

Sultann
He was the leader of the pack! Such was the character of Sultann. He was the undisputed leader of them all. He was a one-man-horse. He gave 110 % to those who he trusted. He did not care for strangers and wasn't interested in them. He stood like a mountain and was self-assured and confident. He was not a horse who would give up a fight. His head was hard and full of character, so was he. His eyes were not calm and soft, they were demanding and commanding. He was the one who gave commands. He was not your slave, he was equal to you. You had to respect him. No easy horse for the unexperienced. Sure, if you wanted to break him he was like a wappon. He was sensitive. Not easy for a guy who expected horses to be slaves. Not with him, not with Sultann. He was a stallion that would have eaten "softies" like Ansata Ibn Halima (don't get me wrong, I like Ansata Ibn Halima ). I am sure if Sultann would have lived in the desrt he would had survived! He was a true fighter.

____________________________
Photos and more information of Sultann
can be found in the "archive" of our Forum
by clicking here!
An evaluation of Sultann written by Judith Forbis can be found
in the BACKROUND section.

I hope you'll enjoy.
Oliver

The Egyptian Prince
Pure elegance and smoothness in silhouette, pure elegance in character. Easy-going, easy to handle. Saw him with a five year old child at the leadshank. No problem at all. Easy to ride. Everyone who was in touch with him was "touched" by him ald loved this horse. His heart was bigger than he was. One of his first owners saw him again five years after he sold him. The horse recognized him after all this years and showed him his affection. Love and peace for this great horse!

_________________________
Dear Susi,
I forward a photo of The Egyptian Prince for all
who might not know him.
Oliver

Photo © Johnny Johnston

Shah Nishan (Morafic x Kharamana)
Not on your list but I like to add him.
Fiery spirit, beauty in motion, a red flame, inside and out. A true Bedouin character, again a one-man-horse but sadly he changed hands too many times to feel "at home". He feared nothing, he would have charged a locomotive. A lion. Not one of those "puppy" stallions but not a mean bone in this horse. Great stallion, great old horse. Characters like him a hard to find. They need good caretakers with experience and will give love in return. But they will try to kill you if you harm them.

___________________________
Here's Shah Nishan
Oliver


Photo © Judith Wagner

I have been reading the comments here, that have been posted of the horses, using *Ansata Ibn Halima's disposition as a benchmark. And I don't really know what to think. So, I am going to isolate, in the following list, all the things that have been said about *Ansata Ibn Halima:

QUOTE

eaten "softies" like Ansata Ibn Halima
A small sweet very lovely puppy
Not a mean bone in this horse
He looked and acted not like a stallion
he looked more like a mare (some of his sons inherited this look and behaviour from him).
He wasn't a fighter
nor a war-horse
a little doll
calm and quiet all the time
He never was angry for a second
He never showed the fiery spirit of other famous stallions
*Ibn Hafiza was much like Ibn Halima disposition wise but completely different in his self-assured behavior
He was a double Ibn Halima grandson and I echo your sentiments about the disposition

So, it makes me wonder, a lot about dispostion, and what people are thinking is important. Because from the comments being made, it seems that people are in awe of a horse that is hot, while not taking a calm, easy-to-work-with stallion, as seriously.

How do you feel about disposition?

Ralph I agree with what I think you are saying "between the lines". It is strange how we Arabian breeders get so annoyed when our horses are labelled "mad" yet so many of us say "that stallion is too quiet" etc. In my opinion there is a fine line between "presence" and "nervous behaviour". Too few people can tell the difference.
A similar discussion was held amongst breeders and riders here. One or two endurance riders said that "nice" horses don't make good endurance horses, and of course many breeders breed for "snort" etc in an attempt to get showring presence. In my experience, "nice" horses do indeed make better endurance horses because their heart rates are naturally lower, and theses days heart rate recovery is the difference between winning and losing. But of course you don't want a lazy plodder either. As for "snorty" show horses, in my opinion they are a pain in the arse to ride as they are naturally nervous (in flight mode), not courageous. A horse that is going forward with impulsion and courage does not snort and blow.... this behaviour is horse-speak for "I'm a bit worried and I feel like I want to run away".
An Arabian horse that is kind enough for children to handle yet can "turn it on" in the showring (through training and encouragement, not fear or nervousness) is ideal. Such horses also find the reserves within themselves to go the extra mile when you're out alone on the endurance trail. JMO!!
Incidentally, many A. Ibn Halima descendants are doing well Down Under. A quote from Jo Hamilton-Branigan BVsc who did a study on important endurance bloodlines in Australia: "Ansata Ibn Halima, a stallion that has been a significant influence on the breeding of endurance horses here. His sons A. El Hakim, A. El Sherif, AK Sirhalima, A. Mameluke, A. Ibn Sudan and A. Shah Zaman are all found in endurance pedigrees." Perhaps the pussy cat had a lion heart?

I’ve been reading this thread as I’ve wanted to know about the disposition of some of the older horses in pedigrees. Its easy enough to see phenotype with the hint of genotype but the mind, that’s something to experience. Only a few photos show any hint of the spectrum of an individual’s mind and nature.

Ralph and Mary you have brought up some interesting snippets from between the lines Susie (guest) you’re comments on Sultann and Shah Nishan I can relate to! I’ve had 4 stallions – all from babies ie 2 from weanling and 2 I bred. Each one of them had a different temperament: not unkind, not too soft, not too fierce, not too much of anything really just individuals ~ but different as individuals should be. And as individuals they are to be savoured as individuals. Just like mares can be different for what ever reason, just like geldings can be different. For me its how to interact with the individualisms which takes a sympathetic* disposition on the human’s behalf

*acting or affected by, of the nature of, or pertaining to a special natural sympathy or affinity; congenial. (Macquarie dictionary)

One thing is for sure, Arabians coerce you into thinking, particularly if you want a partnership with the most spirited It’s definitely a partnership not a slave / master relationship which will produce the most willing amongst them.

Dear Ralph, this is a serious and difficult question.
I used Ansata Ibn Halima's lovely disposition as a comparison to Sultann's disposition but it was no malice intention. Sultann was the opposite of him inside and out. I thought it would be easier to understand them both if I would take Ansata Ibn Halima as the standard of sweet disposition.

See Ralph, you used the picture of Al Aadeed Al Shaqab to illustrate your point of view of a lovely stallion. This is good and I want to see the same in a stallion. But the question was to describe some of the foundation horses, well, Sultann was like he was.

Dear Ralph, I appreciated Ansata Ibn Halima for everything he was. The sire supreme, the puppy with caring eyes. He was and is one of the cornerstones of our breeding. Without any question. But for some who had the fortuna to see him in the flesh like me he was not a stallion at first glance. He looked a bit indifferent and didn't show his sex. You know, not like Al Aadeed who looks like a stallion even when he is sleeping in his stall. Every horse good and bad on this planet has superior points and less superior points. The summ of it all makes the difference between good, bad and supreme. Ansata Ibn Halima was a supreme horse but the less superior thing about him was his gelding-like attitude. Please, don't take this as a negative comment about a great horse. It was just my observation. I love the disposition of the Ibn Halima horses and most of his sons are better in this regard (with a few exceptions) but again (like Sultann), he was like he was. Don't judge a horse from photos, this are dangerous tools if you have to rely on them alone and they certainly didn't show the character or the attitude of a horse. To make my point clear again, I like the sweet puppy disposition but at the same time I require a stallion should look like a stallion any time. His son Ansata Ibn Sudan was the same puppy like his sire but at the same time he had that fiery spirit and the famous "look at me" attitude. Like The Prince a child could lead him but within the blink of an eye if another handler would take the leadshank Ansata Ibn Sudan would transform into a magnificent "look at me stallion".

If anyone felt offended by my descriptions I would like to apologize. It is my honest opinion, nothing more nothing less. I feel it is important to be honest everytime we speak about the horses long gone. We should them remember as they were not like we wish they were. This is my point of view.
Ansata Ibn Halima has contributed more to the breed than most other stallions on this planet. Don't make him small by attesting him things he never had. Great horses and great people do have their small imperfections. This is important to remember.
Sorry for all the trouble I may have caused here.

To MaryM.
Ansata Shah Zaman was not by Ansata Ibn Halima; in fact, he was by Morafic.

Hi Susie,
I see your point. I never saw Ansata Ibn Halima in person but I saw some of his lesser popular sons and I know exactly what you tried to explain. And as you said, this doesn't take anything away from his status as a legendary sire.

Dear Susi

I did not extract the comments made about *Ansata Ibn Halima to make anyone feel bad. So, for that, I need to apologize to you. I am grateful for all that you posted, as you provided insight into horses that I wish I had met like The Egyptian Prince and *Sultann. I get confused sometimes by the expectations that are expressed here on this forum. One of the assets of the Arabian Horse has always been to me, a people-oriented disposition. And over the years, I have watched people compromise on this asset, for other attributes that to them, were more important. When people that are not familiar with the breed, make remarks about "crazy Arabs", I always think of people who compromise disposition for beauty or whatever else they may compromise it for. I don't think that a horse, that is more than a handful to deal with, is the kind of horse that could live in a tent with his owner and not tear the whole place down. I think Mary M expressed it really well.

I posted the picture of Al Aadeed because I think the picture conveys well, what I believe an Arabian Horse, whether a mare, stallion, gelding should be...a people loving horse. A horse that has a mind that can focus on his people and the job at hand. But it is funny, here, in this place, many comments have been made about Al Aadeed and how he is a "feminine" type. This is bothersome, to ascribe a gender to disposition. As if it is more acceptable for stallions to be "fractious" and a handful than a mare. Because if a mare acts in this manner, then we say that this mare is "bitchy", "sour" or even an "alpha" personality but yet, in a stallion, we say "oh, he is the warhorse". Nevermind that the Bedouin never used stallions (too noisy, too distracted on the job at hand) in any type of war or raid.

Ralph

Ralph ... "feminine type" as I understand it is not suggesting femininity. Feminine type is more describing a delicately built horse rather than a robust horse. A robust horse would be the "masculine type". A masculine (ie robust) type of horse can also be a very feminine mare. As a suggestion, take a good look at the silhouettes in Joe Ferriss' article, they show the extremes and the in betweens - from a delicately built horse to the build of a robust horse. Each and everyone of these individuals are asil desert bred (or directly descended from asil desert bred) horses. Each one of these types are equals under the banner of Arabian Horse ie not one of these individuals should win a first place over the other!!

Susi - thanks for your after thoughts but I feel there wasn't a need for your consolidation, what you have said is true in the sense of differences. Each are individuals

whoops - jpg...

photos by Ferriss and Forbis (where credited)...

Dear Diane,
excellent explanation.

Let us talk about another "foundation" horse. Sakr comes to my mind.


Photo © Johnny Johnston

Aside from his conformation and type, he got the animation, the big movement,
and the fiery expression in the ring from his sire Sultan.
That was one side of him which was adored by the thousands of his friends
who saw him during his show career.
I liked the calm side of him. Believe me, in his stall he looked like a teddy bear.
To be honest at first glance I was a bit disappointed. "This is Sakr?"
The multi-champion, Mr Powerful himself? I knew many other stallions
who were very fiery even in their stalls and turned their heads from one side
to the other, constantly searching for mares or other stallions to charge.
Not Sakr. He knew his power and he knew WHEN to act like a stallion and
when it was time to be quiet and calm. Mindi Reid and her husband showed
him to me at the wonderful Gleannloch surroundings, so I could
photograph him. He was quite uninterested in all they did with him.
He had posed so often for photographers, he really knew that despite
of all his efforts in the end no mare was waiting for him.
But then he watched something new at the horizon, some deer passed alonng,
and - wow - here was the old "champion" again. He grew infront of my eyes,
he bowed his neck, charged that deer in the distance. I forgot to "click" my camera
and I forgot to shut my mouth. What a horse! When the deer were out of sight,
he began to relax and was the uninterested, arrogant horse again.
Back in his stall I tried to get in contact with him but he gave me a lesson:
Even with the help of sugar cubes he wasn't the one who sold his soul to a stranger.
He was Sakr. Not interested in talking to someone totally new to him.
Needless to say that I loved this attitude. I was at Gleannloch for a week or so.
And at the end of that week, after many visits to Sakr's box, he was willing to
accept me. Not as a friend, oh no, (that would have needed some more time)
but as someone who wasn't a stranger anymore.
Sakr had great personality and a strong will. He wasn't a stallion who loved every person
just beacuse of a sugar cube. At least this was the impression he gave me.
Perhaps he just didn't like me?

Before our Forum crashed the last time ( ) me and others had asked
Hansi Heck-Melnyk ("Serenity Farm") to comment on several of the "oldtimers" she knew.
I had stored it - and the horses she described with their disposition please find attached.

FALEH
Faleh was in my quarantine and I worked with him daily.  He was once and a while cranky and once came at me with teeth wide open.  I had no choice but lay him on his back and widdle his butt real hard. I told him that we have a 50/50 partnership but I own 51percent of the shares as long as he is under my jurisdiction.  We got along fine then.  I warned Rhita of this, gave her his performance sheet, and one time he did the same to her; Tom took care of that.   Faleh was a Most Classic winner, excellent confirmation, a super athlete, and very intelligent. Had he ridden that 100-mile race, he might have won it by miles.  He won the 100-mile endurance race here, was US National Costume Champion, won numerous halter championships, and was a horse and a half under saddle as well.  He produced the incomparable Asjah Ibn Faleh who became US National Champion race horse, was track record holder, raced 5/30 (16-4-5) D.  That means he raced 30 times during 5 racing seasons, won 16, placed second 4 times, and third 5 times, and won stakes races as well.  This horse was unreal, an absolute superb piece of horseflesh. He carries multiple blood through Yosreia (think of Russia's super sire "Aswan"- a Hadban Enzahi).  He in turn produced the race winners Shaik El Faleh and Egyptian bred stallion JK Asha Moniet a straight Egyptian Champion racer.  There is also Ansata Exemplar in Germany, who should carry on these genes.

KHOFO
My Khofo was so fast, that when I raced him over a 30-acred ploughed field (we had heavy clay) I could never let him totally out, his hind legs literally in front of his front legs.  One day, when I rode him and tried to drive hunters off our property, one turned around, a gun in his hand facing me. Khofo reared up and went at him. The man started running, we galloped after him, he rushed over the picked fence, got his pants hung up, and all Khofo and I could see was a "moonshine backface” .  The intelligence, the loyalty, the courage these horses had and have is absolutely mind boggling. I guess this is why so many people want an Arabian horse, no comparison with other breeds, absolutely not.  And of course to me, there is nothing like a straight Egyptian, they just have it and they must be preserved at all costs.

MORAFIC
No other stallion has produced more champions than he.  I knew him well, played with him when I spent time in Texas. He was absolutely gorgeous. And he also was a very kind and sweet horse, highly intelligent, and very, very regal and proud.  I have a video where Tom McNair plays with him in the pasture which is truly neat. 

THE EGYPTIAN PRINCE
Yes, I knew The Egyptian Prince (1967).  He was about 14.2 – 14.3 hands tall, very beautiful, most classic, well balanced, with a smooth body, huge eyes, and that fire burning within. He was a very gentle, sweet horse and looked like a Schreyer painting.  He had that “something” one can’t describe in words. And he looked so much taller than he was, had so much regality, just like his dad. I liked him very much and still see him in front of me. He died September 20, 1995; much too young.  He produced 272 straight Egyptian daughters and 238 sons. Not always did he get to mate only quality mares, so one has to judge accordingly. I think his best son was Prince Fa Moniet out of Fa Moniet.  Here he got a shot of that champion mare Maaroufa, the incomparable Babson mare bred by Prince Mohamed Ali Tewfik, Egypt, carrying an illustrious pedigree.  Judi and Don Forbis were very wise to acquire him, and I think some of the beautiful Ansata mares did need this outcross blood.  Another excellent son I knew, was ET Crown Prince (Prince Bulacan) out of RDM Maar Hala, a very tall, elegant, and well conformed stallion and producer. When I saw him for the first time, I could not take my eyes of him. I believe he passed away last year. To add one more I knew, was Bady As San, a champion out of the multiple halter and performance champion mare Serenity Bint Montaha.  He was exported to Brazil, and produced excellently here and in Brazil. He was under saddle, and did very well. For one thing, he also had real good legs under him and a huge stride. As you can see, there are so many children, that I can’t mention them all; it would become a book from here to Germany.

ZAGHLOUL
Zaghloul was in my quarantine in 1970. He was about 14.5 going on 15 hands tall.  He had a typical desert bred stallion head, as it should be, with a great jibbah and thankfully not a deep dish, preventing breathing. He had huge eyes and was very correct. He was extremely well balanced and a flying machine. But he also was a sweetheart, a kind and gentle horse, and very intelligent and with it sensitive.  But he was an introvert, so never showed what he was thinking.  I adored him, he was so loveable, but I guess because he also was such a great athlete. He was also an excellent producer, produced Ibn Zaghloul, a 1979 US Top Ten excellent bay.  I recorded 21 straight Egyptian daughters and 29 sons. And never once did I hear anything bad about this valuable stallion and his get. He also raced well in Egypt I was told.

Thanks you for posting Hansi's comments. I can't even begin to say how much I enjoyed reading them. It is a wonderful opportunity to get to glance into a world now gone, and see the horses in the pictures as they really were...

Another horse I really want to mention and am very curious about is Dalul. Does anyone know anything about him?

Angela

Yes, sorry I just copied the quote word for word.

I wholeheartedly agree that every horse is an individul. The differences in personality should not be frowned upon (which is what I think has happed to Ibn Halima and stallions of his kind, not necessarily on this forum, but in other discussions). I still believe some people suffer from the "Black Stallion" syndrome, where they want a wild animal that only they can handle! Nevertheless there is nothing wrong with a fiery horse if you can handle such a horse with confidence. But, considering most riders are not gifted horse-people this romantic view can cause alot of problems and I think is one reason why many Arabians are never ridden by their owners (only handled and ridden by 'trainers' who have the guts!).

But anyway, thanks Oliver for posting Hansi's comments on the 'oldtimers'. It is really interesting learning about this, and it seems they were lovely horses. Please everyone keep it up.

Unfortunately the same seems to apply to humans! Interestingly, my quietest, sweetest most gentle horse (a mare) is the most courageous. She never wastes time spooking and shying, just gets on with the job and will travel anywhere you point her. At a walk, trot and canter she is the perfect ladies hack, and finds the showring rather boring. But at the gallop she is the quintessential war mare, full of fire and "let me at 'em" attitude.

Perhaps I can shade some light into this discussion as I think we do not understand each other. I am German so I believe I know what Susi meant.
In Germany there was a beautiful Ansata Ibn Halima son who resembled his dad very much in type and character and attitude. He was Halim Al Kadir (there was an article in the PORTRAITS about him when he died) and like his dad he looked a bit like a gelding, even with a mare in front of him. This was the point the above poster wanted to make I think. In Germany there were extra points (at the stallion licensing) given for "sex type"; I don't know the proper translation. So in "sex type" Ansata Ibn Halima wasn't a full score. This did not affect his overall "type", you know. That was excellent. With his big eyes, the balance of his body, the highset tail, a clasic in every way. Just not a number one in "sex type". I think that is not so hard to accept. And like Susi said: He is and was a superior horse.
No one requires a stallion to be like "The Black Stallion" but horses like Soufian or Ghazal or Malik or Ibn Hafisa were sweet dolls as well but looked like stallions even if they acted in a "puppy way", like Susi said. They had a full "20" in "sex type". This is the point. No hard feelings, no "malice intention" from me, too.

This is not a foundation stallion but carries lines to Ruminaja Ali, TheEgyptianPrince and *Assad. Great temperment but can turn it on when asked.

same stallion pic taken about 5 minutes before my 5&8 yr old daughters took him over-by the way he was being teased by a mare and a mini stallion the entire time.

We do not judge a horse's charakter by his apperance in the showring or at presentations. You learn to know a character of any given horse muc better when you have the chance to be with him in a daily or normal situation. This is my personal observation.
I came acquainted with Rashad Ibn Nazeer, indeed a foundation sire. He could look like a lamb and you could overseen him for a mare in his paddock when he slept on his feet. But suddenly he awoke and put on a fantastic show for all who looked at him. But most of the time he was an average looking guy, easy to handle in all situations and a devoted mount. When he teased the mares, however, he looked like the true beautiful animal he was. He really had two faces.

Dear Bart van Buggenhout:
I am really interested in learning how the late Safir was character-wise. Can you tell us about him?
I don't know if you got to know Ansata Halim Shah. Was he as sweet as his sire or did the "Morafic in him" show up sometimes?

I was just wondering about your comment on Soufian being used as a teasing stallion? I thought that he was a stallion they liked to use for breeding, why were they just using him as a teasing stallion? Did they not like him?

Fair enough.

SOUFIAN
Back then they already had two sons of Soufian: El Shalyar and Rofann, both U.S. National Champio Futurity Colts.
Rofann was used to the full amount; he left some impressive get at Gleannloch Farms.
At the time I first saw Soufian he was an older horse and steril, therefore was used as a teasing stallion.
He sired his last three Gleannloch-bred foal in 1983 (he passed away 1994).

I had a grandson of *Soufian, RG Fay Moniet, who was out of RG Sherifa by Ansata El Salim. He was one of the nicest stallions we had. A great riding horse, safe for kids to ride. He was calm around other stallions and a nice breeding stallion as well. Finnian had a wonderful temperment.

Good morning Angela and all

I knew Dalul sicne he was 4 months old. When Dr Coles, Canada wanted to import him as a yearling, Doug Marshall asked me, if this was okay, having two Morafic sons in Canada close-by- the other my beloved "Khofo++". I told him, "send six more".

So Dalul became Dr. Coles's (Stonebridge herd sire. He won multiple championships at halter, was US National futurity champion in 1971.

He was a strong and powerful horse, so was his mind. Stood about 15,2 or better with an immense girth and shoulders and par excellent stride. Overall he had a very good conformation.
His temperament was typical to those who spoil their horses, letting them get away with murder, so to speak, lacking diszipline.

I knew Dalul till he was old age and always liked him. He had a strong personality, would never hurt anybody, but had to be handled firmly with understanding. I have seen many of his children, most all very lovely, some with a bit plain head but excellent conformation and all could move very well. We owned 2 of his daughters, and they were as sweet as pie. I still have one of his daughters, a bay, a very sweet mare, yet with fire and presence
and excellent conformation and movement. She also turned out to be a top producer.

all in All Dalul was a 'Horse" no "Pussy cat" and admired by many, many people, especially true horsemen/woman as a true representative of the Straight Egyptian/Desert Horse.

Have a gereat day
Hansi

Hansi: Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful intormation on Dalul! It is really helpful, and very interesting to read about these horses and what they were like outside the show ring...Are there any horses we haven't already heard about that you could tell us about?

Angela

Dear angela

I am sure there are. You just need to tell me which ones. I cant remember all I posted about.

Those, which came through my quarantine in Canada in 1968 and 1970/73
all had a super dispostiion, all I could handle very easily, so could anybodyelse. This, while they never heard "english" were not used to the canadian feed/climate/etc, meeting new people-us-Veterianrians,Farriers, getting used to our water, facilities,
being examined daily by the AGRi Vets, worked by me daily, and on and on. Never once any one gave a problem and the stallions were angels too.

When I look back, just about everyone also could move well, tremendous strides, and most certainly of superior conformation quality than I see so often nowadays in the showring. Most all also were very type.
Those I refer to of nowadays, would have never been accepted for registration, as each import was inspected throughly by General Wayne Kester for the American Registry. Only with one we had a problem, but straightened it out. they also continued producing excellently until breeders used un-natural breeding methods, (in my opinion). Of course, there is no perfect horses, but the faults they had were NOT detrimental at all and never hindered them to be functional, which all of them were. Indeed, it was a superb herd.

We still have a few direct offspring of the original imports,
looking great and going strong and still potent.

Have a great day
hansi

How about the mare *Bint Mona?

Hi Hansi....I mentioned several in my original post, and I am sure it is very lacking, as there would be many more that have contributed to the breed and would be considered a foundation horse...

Some specific horses that I could ask about here, I guess, (and hoping I don't rename someone who has already been described...)
Any Ansata stallion/mare

Morafic

Abenhetep

Ramses Fayek (very interested in this one...I've owned several horses linebred to Fayek and all had absolutely wonderful personalities...also wondering how similar/different he was than Ansata Ibn Halima)

Nazeer (we've heard a lot of discussion on Ansata Ibn Halima...now I'd love to know if his docile personality came from his sire or dam...)

Halima (because of what I've mentioned above)

Shaikh Al Badi

Alaa El Din

Ibn Moniet El Nefous

Moniet El Nefous

Maaroufa

El Hilal (curious about this one)

Like I said, I apologize if I've mentioned someone who we've already heard about. I'm sure others here could add to the list, (such as Bint Mona)....Your wealth of knowledge on these horses is appreciated, as always...

Angela

Hi Angela
I got my *Ramses Fayek son (Related) just shy of his 3rd birthday. He was dangerous. Really had the number on the people trying to handle him.
Took almost a year of watching my back til we got the rules down. Had him nearly 20 years & he was MY horse. He never did really care for strangers or the Vet
He hated a chain, handled in a regular barn halter or a Be Nice halter to bred. He was an angel to breed. The mares loved him & he was one of those "knowing" stallions. He could tell as well as any Vet when a mare was ready to breed.

His childred were rather timid of strangers & would NOT tolerate even the slightest tap if they did anything wrong. You just TALKED to them & explained what they did wrong.
The foals, like their Dad were easy to train to saddle & absolutely fearless.
Many of his kids went to children as they all seemed to prefer kids to adults.

He liked other horses & always shared a fence line with the babies or the young colts or a gelding or a mare. didn't matter he got along with everybody except the other breeding stallions & they could just stay out of "his" space

Not on your list but *Darrag (*Tuhotmos x Nagda by *Morafic) lived with me a while. What a sweety. He gave me 3 related daughters. It was like they were born trained. Just as sweet as Dad & Very willing

Really enjoying this thread

Chiron

I was fortunate enough to visit the Babson farm many years ago. I went in with the stallions alone as Homer Watson was busy and I showed up announced. When I went to see Fabah, he just turned his hindquarters to me. So I went around to the front hoping to get a picture. He deliberately turned away from me again. Not threatening in any way, he just acted "snooty." Like it was beneath his dignity to pose.

I went to see Ibn Fa Serr, this was the colt that broke his foot in 7 places. He ignored me like I wasn't even there. All of a sudden he started running, doing spectacular rollbacks. Remarkable to watch.

I also saw Ansata Abbas Pasha. He came over to me, and I had to put my hand out, I was afraid he would walk right into me! Not threatening in any way but I got the idea he just wouldn't stop. I later saw him at a show after he had been sold to a different person, and this spectacular creature looked totally different. Incredible, lots of charisma and fire. He also was kicking as he was led, I would say in frustration. At Babson's here he had been in a paddock now he was kept stalled.

I saw *Ramses Fayek at several shows, very nice calm horse. Easily handled by Sandi.

Good Evening to all,

After reading some of the post on this interesting thread, I feel I should tell about my experience with the foundational horses. I have seen and been around quite a few over the last forty years, and I would say I have never seen one with a bad disposition. These horses were bred to well and to close to people to ever develope a bad additude about being handled or being ask to do anything. I don't believe them to be puppy dogs or violent with people. I don't agree with the ones that say after they taught them manners or layed down the ground rules they were fine. I think that is insulting the intelegence of the straight egyptian horse. They are a nobel and regal horse and they know that with out any assistance from the handler or owner. I feel each horse is different and needs to be appreciated for being what they are, one of the finest horses in the world.
Just my opinion from owning a son of Ansata Ibn Halima and a son of Rashad Ibn Nazeer, for many years.
Please have a beautiful evening................

Dear Guest 1
Please do not chose to misunderstand me when I said we had to get the rules down.
ALL relationships must have rules or understanding if you prefer.
The stallion came to me with NO understanding of people. But then he had been handled by people with NO understanding of HORSES.
It took most of a year for me to find his likes & dislikes & he to understand acceptable stallion behavior.
Whips & chains had NO part in this mutual learning experience. He was a fear biter,
I HAND feed him treats ( I heard that gasp of horror from all you "Natural Horsemanship" people.) A new experience for him. He was trained to saddle & given a JOB. The "professionals" I got him from were speechless.

I also leased an Alcibiades (Rashad Ibn Nazeer) son X a Rashad daughter. He had not serviced a mare in 6 years because he had become unmanagable. Was even sent out to a AI training farm run by a Vet in hopes of using AI. They had no luck.
He came to me as a horse no one had ever LOVED he had NEVER had a carrot, didn't even know they were to eat. Hand treats became his favorite thing. He rewarded me with 3 very lovely fillies born just 12 months after he came to me. He never once showed any of the horrible aggression I was told he was capable of.

There are 5 mature breeding stallions here right now. All handled in just a barn halter.
I've had many. many stallions (not all of them Egyptian & not all even Arabs.) I if you truely believe there is no such thing as a "bad" or "dangerous" stallion then you have been very lucky indeed. But I will add JMHO that the stallions are usually MADE that way by inconsistant handling & lack of proper respect & both sides.

Just my oppions
Enjoy a beautiful day

Chiron

We too hand feed our stallions treats, carrots, apples and candies once in a great while.
Just covered a mare yesterday with a barn halter, yes he danced on the way over to the breeding chute. Not once did he become unmanageable, not once did he show aggression to either myself nor the mare. Just acted like a stallion doing what he was destined to do.
I too feel there are no bad horses, just horses that are not treated with care and mutual respect. He has his space and I have mine. I will not cross his in anger nor will I allow him to cross mine unless I ask him to. It does not require whips to get respect.
Ours are all SO, all 6 of them. All are ALIVE but none are unmanageable. All are kind, all but two are trained to ride and one is a new 3 yr. old and too immature in musculature to even saddle although he too understands my space.

If they do not have a good disposition they are not stallions. Most of ours look very much like their ancestors and their disposition can be attributed to whence they came.

Regards,
JAL

Chiron:
I had to laugh when I read your post concerning the treats. I *the horror, oh the horror* also hand feed treats as a reward.

Well written Mary,
I agree totally in what you said. I wonder though how many of these highly strung, assertive stallions were made though through being kept in stables 24/7 and lack of knowlegeable handlers to suit their temperaments????
I would love to know more about Tuhotmos and his temperament and what he passed onto his sons and daughters.
Thanks
KarenS