Hi,

I'm looking for a photo of the mentioned mare.
Can anybody help me?
Thank you in advance!

There is a photo of Ansata Rebecca in the new book from Judith Forbis. I don't have my copy right now because I loaned it to a friend. Perhaps someone out there would have a copy and could look up the picture. Rebecca is the dam of my stallion Ansata El Ibriz (by Halim Shah).

Hi Guest,

attached you will find a picture of Ansata Rebecca with her foal Radames II. The photographer is U. Beutelmüller and the pic is out of Asilbook, Issue IV.

Klaus

Thank you so much for this nice photo!

Hi!

Lebt diese schöne Stute (geboren 1979) eigentlich noch?

Gruß Petra

Leider lebt die Stute nicht mehr, ich denke seit 2 Jahren ist sie tot, das letzte Fohlen war der Hengst Rames von Adnan - heute in Italien bei Frau Savier. Nachzucht brachte sie in BRD von Salaa el Dine, Nahaman, Ibn Nejdi und Andnan.

Does anybody have a body-shot of A. Rebecca? Maybe you at Al Rayyan, Bart?
I was told that that the one in the Golden Book does not at all do her justice.

The photo does her justice. I have some bodyshots of her, I will look if I can find them.
She had a long and soft back, very bad front legs, a small eye, a slightly underslung neck, a poor trot. All in all an average mare though with a very attractive flea-bitten color. JMO.

... if so, 90% of Arabian horse breeders breed donkeys ...



Nevertheless, I'm still VERY interested to see those body shots!

Kann man deutsch schreiben? Das ist leichter. Voranschicken möchte ich, daß ich die Ansata-Pferde grundsätzlich mag und daß immer alles eine subjektive Sache ist. Alles, was ich sehe oder zu sehen glaube sieht ein anderer ganz anders und ein Dritter vielleicht wieder anders.
Als ich die Stute sah, war ich hin und hergerissen. Auf der einen Seite diese unglaublich schöne Farbe, die sie wirklich sehr attraktiv erscheinen ließ. Auf der anderen Seite war ich entsetzt über den schlechten Rücken, den ich in drei ihrer Nachkommen wiederfand - in Radames, Ansata Ramazan und Bint Rebecca. Da ich insgesamt nur fünf Nachkommen von ihr sah (die drei erwähnten plus Ansata Ramesses, der den Rücken definitiv nicht geerbt hat und Ansata El Ibriz als ganz jungen Hengst, wie er heute aussieht, weiß ich nicht).
Ihre Züchterin jedenfalls kastrierte Ansata Ramazan und gab auch Ansata El Ibriz als Wallach-Kandidaten ab. Naja, mittlerweile ist er wohl doch Zuchthengst geworden, wie das so ist.
Aber nicht nur der Rücken der Stute schien mir bedenklich. Die Oberlinie war furchtbar schwammig und der Widerrist nicht vorhanden, das Fundament ebenfalls schwammig, die Hufe flach, groß, breit wie Tellerminen. Die Vorderbeine steil, die Hinterhand nicht genug gewinkelt, darum auch keine Gänge. Der Hals gerade getragen wie ein Bleistift, einhergehend mit einem Unterhals. Der Kopf, wenn man sich die Schimmelfarbe wegdenkt, eher gewöhnlich. Ich sah auch ihren Vater Ansata Abu Sudan, der auch eine sehr weiche Oberlinie besaß aber vor allem auch die schlechten Hufe und Vorderbeine, die er vielen seiner Töchter vererbte, von denen etliche früh "starben", weil sie platt auf den Hufen waren und nicht mehr stehen konnten.
Durchschnitt ist sicher ebenfalls ein Begriff über den man streiten kann, aber diese Stute entsprach weder dem Durchschnitt der Ansata-Pferde, die man gewöhnt ist noch dem Durchschnitt eines x-beliebigen C-Schau-Niveaus.

War die Frage nicht einfach die nach einem Foto....?
Aber Danke für die Komplettbeschreibungen des Pferdes.
Ansata Ramesses ist sicher eines ihrer gelungensten Produkte.

I have never seen Rebecca so I certainly cannot comment on her appearance but I can comment on El Ibriz since he has lived with me for 11 years. He does have a slightly soft back but he is a long way from a candidate for gelding. And, in all the foals he has sired, he has never once passed on that soft back. Also, he has correct legs and an elegant neck. I don't have any really good body shots of El Ibriz but I am attaching a casual photo taken in his turn out paddock.

Believe me Nancy, such "honest" shots tell me more than the "posed" and artificial photos we are used to see.
El Ibriz looks good, indeed!

Sorry to pick up the issue once again, but I'm a little confused about the term "average mare". Unfortunately I never saw her, so I have to rely on photos/descriptions. As a matter of fact, Rebecca was sold by Ansata, imported by L. Vetter, leased by/co-owned with Dr. Nagel. She provided several renowned studs with her progeny (Al Nakeeb, Dirnhofer, Von Kameke, Tre Balzane, to name but a few just coming to my mind). Were they all blind in breeding an average mare and using her offspring as a foundation stock? Did they all rely on "blood will tell"? Did they breed just for names or pedigrees? Did they realize a better-than-average breeding potential of an average mare?

From what I heard, Ansata Rebecca was glorified by many to having been one of the epitomes of Arabian type and a fine representative of Ansata breeding.

Well - as always - the truth lies inbetween and judgement seems to be a matter of personal tastes and priorities. Maybe I asked/know the wrong people?

Also ich habe A. Rebecca öfters gesehen (und gemocht) und bin, bevor ich sie das erste mal sah, vor dem Pedigree fast ehrfürchtig geworden. Sie war eine Stute die man NICHT vergisst, zum einen wegen der sehr schönen exotischen Fliegenschimmelfarbe, die im Sommer wie alter istrischer Marmor glänzte und weil sie - das war damals eine große Seltenheit - eine Ansatastute war.
Kritisch betrachtet - und warum sollte man das nicht? - war sie eine recht kleine Stute mit den oben bereits erwähnten Mängeln. Kein Bewegungswunder und in einer hellen Fuchsfarbe oder als Braune mit polnischer Abstammung ein NICHTS. Aber man neigt dazu (ich bin sicher kein Einzelfall), dass man auch die Abstammung SEHEN WILL und in Gedanken die Größen der ägyptischen Ansatazucht vor dem inneren Auge Revue passieren lässt - ja und dann ist diese Stute plötzlich VIEL wertvoller und interessanter. Und das finde ich ist auch ok. Immerhin hat sie sehr schöne Nachzucht gebracht und daran misst man eine Zuchtstute. Auf einer Schau hätte sie nichts verloren bzw. gewonnen. Wenn man mich in 20 oder 30 Jahren nach ihr fragt, werde ich mich erinnern an sie, aber sicher nicht an die bis dahin zahlreich vergessenen Schausieger.

Gregor, alter Schwede, Du hast die Sache auf den Punkt gebracht.

I too would like to see the body shots.

Babs, have you seen the mare in person or just on print?

Nach zähen Verhandlungen und wühlen im Privatarchiv von Liesel Vetter hier Ansata Rebecca
in Ihrer vollen Schönheit, ungeschmickt und Amateurfotos von 1991 und 1992.

1992 mit Radames

Juni 1992

und jetzt ein body-shot vom Juni 1991:

.................Was ist eigentlich aus Bint Rebecca von Salaa El Dine geworden???
Viele Grüsse JONAS

http://www.alnakeebarabians.com/intro.htm

Sliver, yes, I have seen her in person.

Hi Babs,

Just curious because I know alot of people that will look at a photo and make their mind up what the horse is when in reality some horses are better in person. I have one on a my farm that came with professional prints that I think make the horse look really bad when she is really a very very nice mare.

WOW, nice mare

Danke für die Fotos, die eigentlich alles Gesagte bestätigen. Zu El Ibriz und meinem Kommentar als "Wallach-Kandidaten" wollte ich nur erwähnen, dass Judith Forbis in ihrem Buch Authentic Arabian Bloodstock II zu ihm schreibt, dass er "weggegeben wurde", also ausdrücklich nicht "verkauft". Und "weggegeben" werden bei ihr nicht gerade die Hengste, die dann in Qatar Hauptbeschäler werden oder das Egyptian Event gewinnen. Daß er sich zu einem respektablen Hengst ausgewachsen haben mag, will ich gar nicht leugnen. Vielleicht macht auch Frau Forbis Fehler?

My son is the one who speaks German and my efforts at translation are not the best, but El Ibriz came here to Canada via the Dorian Farm auction. The breeder who brought him to Canada only sold him because she became interested in breeding blacks shortly afterward. El Ibriz is homozygous for grey so I had the good fortune to be able to buy him. Since the Forbises approached us to breed mares to El Ibriz on a foal sharing basis, I hardly think they thought he was gelding material. Other people must feel the same since we have had many chances to sell him as a breeding stallion. I never saw El Ibriz as a foal. He was two years old when I met him and he was certainly slow in reaching his prime. Possibly if Julia based her thoughts on seeing him as a baby, she should remember that foals can change drastically as they grow. I believe that it is mentioned in the gold book that Halim Shah wasn't outstanding as a young horse either. As far as Ansata Ramazan goes, I was told he was gelded by his owner because she loved the horse and did not wish to keep a stallion.

I have had El Ibriz long enough to know his value. He is an excellent breeding stallion with most of his get being well above average in appearance, soundness and temprament. People may or may not like him but I think it is only fair to know the horse before you give an opinion on him.

Nancy!

Was someone talking bad about your stud in German? I imagine it was nice that you could get your son to translate for you! Why don't you put up a few more pics of him?

I have trouble figuring out how to make the photos small enough to post. If I can figure it out, I'll post some more.

Maybe I have this figured out. Here he is at age 12, first time ridden in 8 years.

Here is Raja El Ibriz with his dam Ansata Omniya, at 1 month old

Dear Guest
No one was talking bad in German about anyone's stud. Julia first wrote that she read in the Golden Book Ansata El Ibriz was "given away" instead of was "sold" to someone which she took as an indication that the Forbises possibly did not see him as a "stallion material". In her second post Julia wrote that she is well aware that many a horse change dramatically and perhaps the Forbises did a mistake with the evaluation of Ansata El Ibriz. So there's no reason for being upset. Beautiful photos.

... after digging in old magazines I found a head shot of Ansata Rebecca today that I wanted to share with those interested. Photographer unknown.

Dear Nancy

thank you for your honesty. I just saw a son of El Ebriz in canada anwas not impressed at all. He could not move, if you put roller scates on him. Had a bad rearend, no whithers, legs were not that good either, but had a lovely head. He will be exported to Europe.
I really dont know what anybody would want to do with this horse or expects what? Even as a gelding he would only be able to do so much, and not very much.

It is so true, not every mating works out well and even sometimes siblings are different to each other. But is is so good to hear that people have the courage to straight forwardly discuss the horses. Only this way we can learn. The best breeders in the world have to content themselves with offspring, which did not turn out to their liking. They practice selective breeding and ruthlessly cull what they feel it should be.

Hansi

Unfortunately this is how stories get started. One has to know something of the background history behind Dorian Farms and Ansata to understand why Ansata El Ibriz was "given". If you look into this you will find that Ansata El Ibriz is a replacement for an Ansata stallion that had been purchased by Dorian Farms. The first stallion, Ansata Ali Abbas had some early fertility problems. So, I guess you could consider Ansata El Ibriz as "given away" but then again one should get something for monies previously paid! So now you can all stop thinking that Ansata El Ibriz is not a quality stallion or that there was an indication that he was not stallion material.

Hello Hansi:

I'm sorry to hear that you had a poor impression of the colt you saw. I guess that just goes to show that not every person looks at a horse in the same way. Remember that the colt you saw is very immature and is a long way from reaching his potential. In addition he is a very laid back colt with an easy going disposition. He can certainly move out when he wants to. My farrier thought the colt had very good legs. I guess he doesn't know what he's talking about either.
You are entitled to your impression of him. Thank goodness not everyone feels the same. I've attached a picture.


Dear guest:

Thank you for sorting out the misinformation on El Ibriz. I knew he was not a gift but was unaware of the circumstances of his arrival at Dorian Farms. After all, a gift is getting something for nothing, not getting something in exchange for something that didn't work out.

Just my two cents to throw in, to confirm what Guest wrote about Ansata El Ibriz being a replacement stallion for Dorian Farms. I knew Dorian and she told me that story. She had purchased the first stallion for a large sum of money from Ansata and when she was not satisfied with his fertility, Ansata replaced him with Ansata El Ibriz. I would say that was good business ethics on the part of Ansata, very commendable. So really, while money did not exchange hands for El Ibriz, he represented a purchse of a handsome sum of money.
Iris

That was a pretty ruthless description of that colt you gave Hansi.

Are you stating that Europe has bad taste in horses when you say they will be the ones to buy him? <_<

It's important that Guest make this statement.
Thank you for that. However, I wonder why
Dorian Farm waited for so many years to get that second
stallion. After all, Ansata Ali Abbas was born in the early eighties!

Oliver, I respectfully disagree with you that Guest needed to make that statement at all. Hansi stated how she saw the horse, through her eyes with what she considers to be important. If more honest statements were made like this, there would be more "heads-up" for others wanting to know. To think that other people would not make an investigation of their own to discover if they felt these appraisals to be accurate is to say that 'other' people have no brain, no ability to make decisions on their own. I really don't think you meant that at all.

If more honest appraisals were done and not just continually brag on and on and on about a horse, hiding all the negatives, then many people would not get so hurt. And I am definately speaking from my own experiences, which I could ill afford! ! And I cannot wonder if certain people overseas from America would have appreciated more honest evaluations. Because of course it is only one person's opinion and thus, one would have to investigate to make their own opinion.

So no I don't think her words were harsh. They certainly would have sent up the "antenaee" for me and my investigation would have saved much --- money, time, work, effort, dreams and ultimately the lives of two foals that would never come been born.

... ich habe ihn letztes Jahr in Tilburg gesehen und er hat mir gut gefallen. Hat jemand Nachzucht von ihm?

Übrigens war auch Radames dort. Halbschwesterchen Rhedora von Nahaman schließlich habe ich letztes Jahr in Ströhen gesehen, Bint Rebecca und A. El Ibriz kenne ich von zahlreichen Bildern. Man könnte den Eindruck gewinnen, daß A. Rebecca stets den Vater ihrer Nachkommen "durchließ" und somit eine sog. "Inkubator"-Stute war ... !?

Dear American Breeder:

I think that maybe you have two different things mixed up. Ansata Ali Abbas was foaled in 1981 and was a replaced by Ansata El Ibriz who was foaled in 1988. In waiting for a young stallion to grow up and then breeding with him and discovering fertility issues, several years are often involved.

The colt that was sired by Ansata El Ibriz and is to be exported is another issue altogether. Please remember that what one person sees in a horse and what another sees can be two different things. Hansi has a right to her view but not everyone's views agree.

Dear American Breeder,
nohooo, you got me wrong, I am sorry for that. My statement was in no way a reaction of Hansi's comment.
Everyone is entitled to its own opinion. That's absolutely okay with me.
It was a reaction of the early comments made about the so called "giving away factor" of Ansata El Ibriz
(see page 1 or 2 of this thread) implying that he should be "gelding material" in the eyes of his breeder...

As I remember the story Dorian told me Nancy, you're right, that is how it happened.
Iris

Does someone know why Ansata Rebecca was destroyed? It happens that I know she was blind at the end but was she serious ill or just too old to be productive anymore? She was sent to Denmark to the slaughter house.

... ahh!? Is that true? Why slaughter house? Why Denmark? That's not the "signature" of a Dr. Nagel and totally new to me. All I know is that after giving birth to her last colt by Adnan (now in Italy) she was standing at the Katharinenhof until she died. So where did you get that info from???

Hallo Dr. Wigger, Rebacca stand die letzten Jahre NICHT auf dem Katharinenhof, sie wurde an einen anderen Züchter/Besitzer oder so abegegeben. Und dort wurde sie dann auch "erlöst"?

OOOkay , so did Ansata Rebecca end up in a slaughter house??????

Unfortunately - that´s true

OHHHHH................In the slaughter house , a bad ending for a great mare like Ansata Rebecca!