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Dave
Check this out. It's a dressage video clip about engaging a horse's back for long term soundness. This may be from the dressage world but it is applicable to all riding.

Dave


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8cOq7YWXys

Also, www.art2ride.com
Dieter
QUOTE (Dave @ Feb 2 2012, 02:15 AM) *
Check this out. It's a dressage video clip about engaging a horse's back for long term soundness. This may be from the dressage world but it is applicable to all riding.
Dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8cOq7YWXys
Also, www.art2ride.com

Thank you Dave . . . achieving bascule! Yay!! In the grey horse, you can briefly see the muscles over the loin/back working - very nice! smile.gif
Liz Salmon
Great video !!
2mntn
Great video, Dave, and also the basis for a good discussion topic. First, I have come to view the posting trot with a large measure of distaste, as many riders just don't perform it correctly. Slamming a big butt, or even a small one wink.gif back down on the saddle near the cantle is working at cross purposes for acheiving bascule and engaging the hind quarters..but that is another topic, I suppose. The instructor in this video appears to be grounded in true classical methods as found at the Spanish Riding School and from masters such as Egon von Neindorff.

Horse owners who don't even own a sadlle, much less have any intention of ever riding a horse, should not be "put off" and instantly shut out incoming information which contains the word "dressage". At the heart of classical horsemanship is work. Work through specific and progressive exercise to gain balance and symmetry in motion - first for the horse and then for that horse and a rider together. However, every horse, from the pasture ornament to the in-hand halter horse and on to all the performance horse disciplines, will benefit from classical exercise methods. These methods are proven to develop mind, muscle, coordination, suppleness and all those gymnastically-related adjectives which go toward describing "balance and symmetry" in a horse - all of which the horse can acheive without ever having a rider on his back.
Liz Salmon
I was taught in the UK by 2 instructors who had been with the Spanish Riding School for 3 years, which was wonderful. All my Arabians were broken to saddle before being bred later and competed in ridden show classes, dressage, endurance or eventing. My daughter is a very successful dressage rider, trainer and judge and I passed on the classical methods to her. The Spanish Riding School does not compete in dressage classes.

Back in the saddle again this week !!



Dieter
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 2 2012, 06:48 PM) *
(snipped)I have come to view the posting trot with a large measure of distaste, as many riders just don't perform it correctly. Slamming a big butt, or even a small one wink.gif back down on the saddle near the cantle is working at cross purposes for acheiving bascule and engaging the hind quarters.(snipped)
Right on Ray . . . if the exercise is meant to teach the horse to supple and engage its back, then pain is best left out of the equation.
Dieter
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Feb 3 2012, 09:15 AM) *
I was taught in the UK by 2 instructors who had been with the Spanish Riding School for 3 years, which was wonderful. All my Arabians were broken to saddle before being bred later and competed in ridden show classes, dressage, endurance or eventing. My daughter is a very successful dressage rider, trainer and judge and I passed on the classical methods to her. The Spanish Riding School does not compete in dressage classes.

Back in the saddle again this week !!

Liz! You must be so excited to be riding again! Good for you!

Kind Regards,

Liz Salmon
Yes, it was such fun, Clare has done a great job training this young mare—Polish bloodlines by Kordelas
2mntn
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Feb 3 2012, 07:15 AM) *
I was taught in the UK by 2 instructors who had been with the Spanish Riding School for 3 years, which was wonderful. All my Arabians were broken to saddle before being bred later and competed in ridden show classes, dressage, endurance or eventing. My daughter is a very successful dressage rider, trainer and judge and I passed on the classical methods to her. The Spanish Riding School does not compete in dressage classes.

Back in the saddle again this week !!


Lookin' good, Liz!

You said, "The Spanish Riding School does not compete in dressage classes." Did you think I implied that they did, or is this just informational?
Liz Salmon
Just informational Ray
2mntn
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Feb 3 2012, 08:42 PM) *
Just informational Ray


smile.gif By the way, do you know of any "halter folks" using classical training as a conditioning tool?
Dave
Ray,

The problem with halter is that they don't want a relaxed horse.

Dave

QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 4 2012, 04:48 AM) *
smile.gif By the way, do you know of any "halter folks" using classical training as a conditioning tool?

Dave
I'm glad you all like the video.

Will has been helping me with my horses. We started three weeks ago and we're starting with the basics. Liz will remember my mare TA Zofia who I bought from Toskhara. She's the project horse as is her filly. We're working on relaxation and strengthening the back. When I understand the importance of what we're doing, the basics are truly fun. I'm willing to take the time to get it right from the start. It's fun to see a two year old stretching and lengthening her topline on the lunge line especially with a nice rythym.

Dressage is truly fun!

Dave
Liz Salmon
I don't know of any Main Ring Halter trainers using classical methods—Sport horse trainers do as they want the back strengthened for performance later. When you see main ring trainers lunging their horses, they just use a halter most of the time (sometimes with a saddle and reins attached) so the horse tends to throw his head up therefore hollowing the back and developing an upside down neck, which they then try to sweat off !!! Doesn't make sense !!

Dave, I'm glad to hear of Zofia. Clare loves her Toskhara mare—the one I'm riding in the photo—she won 5 firsts her first show in Sport Horse and Dressage !!
HLM
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Feb 3 2012, 03:15 PM) *
I was taught in the UK by 2 instructors who had been with the Spanish Riding School for 3 years, which was wonderful. All my Arabians were broken to saddle before being bred later and competed in ridden show classes, dressage, endurance or eventing. My daughter is a very successful dressage rider, trainer and judge and I passed on the classical methods to her. The Spanish Riding School does not compete in dressage classes.

Back in the saddle again this week !!



Hi Liz

are you sitting in a western saddle? I am asking because of the position of your legs.

As far as "longing" is concerned, it is actually an art in itself. I dontknow if trainers, who have never been in the saddle would know how to properly longe. Most all I watched dont know how and some have done more harm to the horse than good. some I watched let the horses "run" in every gate.

Can you remember the names of those two instructios of the Spanish you mentioned?

Often "Dressage" is misunderstood, some thinking it is circus, when in fact it is a "gymnastic".
Often, years back, over the forum I stated" let the horse stretch forward/downward, like a hound with the nose to the ground. Only when one knows at least 5 of the 7 systems of the horse, can one understand a lot better. Years ago I advised over the forum to learn about it.

You will remember Gillian in Qatar who did an excellent teaching job. She had the muscle system and the scelleton system pained on a life horse and one could easily see how all worked/behaved doing whatever.
It was one of the best educational lessons I have seen. I wish she be invited to the EE to educate.

Often I state that the system is 2500 years old since Xenophon and nobody has been able to improve upon it yet.
Many a books have been and are writing and some make my hairs stand on end. I also watch sometimes the RFD
over TV and my stomach sometimes turns getting sick of what I see by some trainers.
the last one was when a trainer longed a horse on a hill, it running up and down, with some obstacles, unable to negotiate them, almost falling down, etc.etc. and cant believe that this was shown over TV. If some one wants to break a horse's neck or legs, copy it.

Dressage is the womb of all equine sports, even for halter horses and especially race horses.. It takes a lot of time, patience and knowledge. But who wants to take the time for a year to do all the basics right, eh? And those are in my opinion the hardest and most difficult. What follows is much easier, dont you agree? Furthermore it is so hard to find a good trainer and riders. the latter is truly difficult. It also is expensive, always was, even at my time when a lesson from willy Schultheis costs $ 125.00- that some 40 or more years ago. Few can afford this nowadays in this economy.

Hansi
Liz Salmon
Hansi—no I was in a dressage saddle which has huge knee rolls and I hadn't ridden for 3 years—does it really look like a Western saddle ? The photo was taken after I had been riding for a while—my legs were a bit wobbly to say the least—I'm not much younger than you—do you still ride ? Whether I'm in a Western or Dressage saddle I always try to have that straight line from shoulder, hip to heel, but my muscles now don't always want to obey !!

The instructors I had were John Lassiter and Charles Harris. Charles was with the Spanish School for 3 years and taught me all I know—he was wonderful and became a Master of Horsemanship with the British Horse Society when he came back..
HLM
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Feb 4 2012, 08:39 PM) *
Hansi—no I was in a dressage saddle which has huge knee rolls and I hadn't ridden for 3 years—does it really look like a Western saddle ? The photo was taken after I had been riding for a while—my legs were a bit wobbly to say the least—I'm not much younger than you—do you still ride ? Whether I'm in a Western or Dressage saddle I always try to have that straight line from shoulder, hip to heel, but my muscles now don't always want to obey !!

The instructors I had were John Lassiter and Charles Harris. Charles was with the Spanish School for 3 years and taught me all I know—he was wonderful and became a Master of Horsemanship with the British Horse Society when he came back..



thanks Liz for your explanation. You were most fortunate to have the spanish Riding School instructors as your teachers. No wonder your daughter is doing so well, and I am a great fan of hers.

No cant see the saddle you are in, was just looking at your feet a bit away from the horse. No I dont ride anymore, have trouble even negotiating a step, could not get up or down without breaking my bones, ha.
I miss it so much, you have no idea. Envy those who ride and train, but I still help here at least one "western" rider/trainer to become an "english" one. Is very talented, and makes good progress, and loves it.

Take care
Hansi
Marilee
Thank you very much for posting this link to the video. The mentor we met in 1978 (Thann Hanchett) had ridden in Europe and with a few of the early clinicians/masters, and so when we got our Ansata Ibn Sudan son X triple Fadjur at 3 years of age, we already believed in the methods and in the results of patience over time. We transferred our previous dressage work (before getting the Arabian) with our appaloosa gelding and breeding stock paint mare (he had done barrels and trail riding, she had been raced and had been trail ridden at 3). So using the same methods as seen in the video (just in the early 80s), we brought along the stallion, and also showed him in open breed showmanship, breed halter, and English Pleasure (which in those days was saddle seat and sometimes combined with hunt seat in the same class). I saw then (and especially now) such a difference over time with the muscling of the horse using this method of out and down or forward, rather than holding the face and tieing everything down or back as we still see so many using. One can see narrow chests and hollow backs and ewe necks, or horses which to me should still be in basic training, minus all the short cuts and gimmicks, rather than in show ring classes. The long neck, with the development of the top line of the neck, rather than it being upside down, with the martingales or over checks or chambons or tie downs or draw reins that are used. I agree with the lunging comment, that many use the tight side reins and severe bits instead of time and patience over time to get results. Seeing those horses reaching forward and down into the bit in the video really brings back great memories, as that is what I learned, way back in the day. I am also so pleased to see other posters here who I really admire anyway--- from other discussions. Now if only those who DO NOT understand or who cannot see this, could see this and understand, perhaps more halter and performance horses could be ridden this way, from the hands and seat, not from gimmicks and severe training methods, all in the name of speed............, but not soundness. PS---my horses lived into their 20s and 30s, with very strong backs, as a results of this same method.
HLM
QUOTE (Marilee @ Feb 5 2012, 02:01 AM) *
Thank you very much for posting this link to the video. The mentor we met in 1978 (Thann Hanchett) had ridden in Europe and with a few of the early clinicians/masters, and so when we got our Ansata Ibn Sudan son X triple Fadjur at 3 years of age, we already believed in the methods and in the results of patience over time. We transferred our previous dressage work (before getting the Arabian) with our appaloosa gelding and breeding stock paint mare (he had done barrels and trail riding, she had been raced and had been trail ridden at 3). So using the same methods as seen in the video (just in the early 80s), we brought along the stallion, and also showed him in open breed showmanship, breed halter, and English Pleasure (which in those days was saddle seat and sometimes combined with hunt seat in the same class). I saw then (and especially now) such a difference over time with the muscling of the horse using this method of out and down or forward, rather than holding the face and tieing everything down or back as we still see so many using. One can see narrow chests and hollow backs and ewe necks, or horses which to me should still be in basic training, minus all the short cuts and gimmicks, rather than in show ring classes. The long neck, with the development of the top line of the neck, rather than it being upside down, with the martingales or over checks or chambons or tie downs or draw reins that are used. I agree with the lunging comment, that many use the tight side reins and severe bits instead of time and patience over time to get results. Seeing those horses reaching forward and down into the bit in the video really brings back great memories, as that is what I learned, way back in the day. I am also so pleased to see other posters here who I really admire anyway--- from other discussions. Now if only those who DO NOT understand or who cannot see this, could see this and understand, perhaps more halter and performance horses could be ridden this way, from the hands and seat, not from gimmicks and severe training methods, all in the name of speed............, but not soundness. PS---my horses lived into their 20s and 30s, with very strong backs, as a results of this same method.



Hi Marilee
So glad you do as you stated. I ride (rode) with my spine and legs, transferred into my hands. As we both know without a good seat one cant have good hands.

Good luck and good wishes
Hansi
Dave
I've wished for along time that Arabians would be ridden and shown in dressage. Here's an Arabian I wish had been a dressage horse - Emanor. Try to look past the saddle seat riding or the American torture as Liz would say. Emanor is about 15.1 hands and he has the power of a much larger horse. I saw his sire Wojslaw who was also a powerhouse.

The last time I saw him, he was at Om el Arab. I think he's currently at Michigan State University.

Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-mchqk_ktU
Dave
Much of what currenlty passes for training is nothing more than the selective application of abuse to force the horse into a frame for the 20 or so minutes in front of a judge.

Dave

QUOTE (Marilee @ Feb 5 2012, 03:01 AM) *
Thank you very much for posting this link to the video. The mentor we met in 1978 (Thann Hanchett) had ridden in Europe and with a few of the early clinicians/masters, and so when we got our Ansata Ibn Sudan son X triple Fadjur at 3 years of age, we already believed in the methods and in the results of patience over time. We transferred our previous dressage work (before getting the Arabian) with our appaloosa gelding and breeding stock paint mare (he had done barrels and trail riding, she had been raced and had been trail ridden at 3). So using the same methods as seen in the video (just in the early 80s), we brought along the stallion, and also showed him in open breed showmanship, breed halter, and English Pleasure (which in those days was saddle seat and sometimes combined with hunt seat in the same class). I saw then (and especially now) such a difference over time with the muscling of the horse using this method of out and down or forward, rather than holding the face and tieing everything down or back as we still see so many using. One can see narrow chests and hollow backs and ewe necks, or horses which to me should still be in basic training, minus all the short cuts and gimmicks, rather than in show ring classes. The long neck, with the development of the top line of the neck, rather than it being upside down, with the martingales or over checks or chambons or tie downs or draw reins that are used. I agree with the lunging comment, that many use the tight side reins and severe bits instead of time and patience over time to get results. Seeing those horses reaching forward and down into the bit in the video really brings back great memories, as that is what I learned, way back in the day. I am also so pleased to see other posters here who I really admire anyway--- from other discussions. Now if only those who DO NOT understand or who cannot see this, could see this and understand, perhaps more halter and performance horses could be ridden this way, from the hands and seat, not from gimmicks and severe training methods, all in the name of speed............, but not soundness. PS---my horses lived into their 20s and 30s, with very strong backs, as a results of this same method.

HLM
QUOTE (Dave @ Feb 5 2012, 10:09 AM) *
I've wished for along time that Arabians would be ridden and shown in dressage. Here's an Arabian I wish had been a dressage horse - Emanor. Try to look past the saddle seat riding or the American torture as Liz would say. Emanor is about 15.1 hands and he has the power of a much larger horse. I saw his sire Wojslaw who was also a powerhouse.

The last time I saw him, he was at Om el Arab. I think he's currently at Michigan State University.

Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-mchqk_ktU


Dave, thanks for the video, yes this is a very beautiful and powerful moving horse. I like him. Indeed he would be a top dressage horse with proper training, unless he has this already.

Hansi
Liz Salmon
Yes Dave, American Torture—we don't ride like that in England, so it shouldn't be called English !!! I consider many trainers not capable of training ivy up a wall—either for halter or performance !!
2mntn
QUOTE (Dave @ Feb 5 2012, 01:09 AM) *
I've wished for along time that Arabians would be ridden and shown in dressage. Here's an Arabian I wish had been a dressage horse - Emanor. Try to look past the saddle seat riding or the American torture as Liz would say. Emanor is about 15.1 hands and he has the power of a much larger horse. I saw his sire Wojslaw who was also a powerhouse.

The last time I saw him, he was at Om el Arab. I think he's currently at Michigan State University.

Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-mchqk_ktU


Gotta love what the Polish breeders have done with their Arabians. Any ideas on why his rider is sitting back nearly on the croup? GACK!!
Seglawiyat
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 5 2012, 01:21 PM) *
Gotta love what the Polish breeders have done with their Arabians. Any ideas on why his rider is sitting back nearly on the croup? GACK!!


My trainer used to call that the "LaCroix" method of training and showing. Then my trainer (name furnished upon request) began to copy it and danged if he didn't become a national English Pleasure and Park Horse showman! What gets rewarded in the show ring soon becomes a reliable training technique, or monkey see, monkey do. JMO>
Pam Studebaker
2mntn
QUOTE (Seglawiyat @ Feb 5 2012, 10:25 AM) *
My trainer used to call that the "LaCroix" method of training and showing. Then my trainer (name furnished upon request) began to copy it and danged if he didn't become a national English Pleasure and Park Horse showman! What gets rewarded in the show ring soon becomes a reliable training technique, or monkey see, monkey do. JMO>
Pam Studebaker


laugh.gif laugh.gif Well, I am thrilled that at least one LaCroix has turned over a "new leaf" by "going dressage". Perhaps a change is in the wind. smile.gif
Seglawiyat
Wouldn't that be lovely!!
Pam
Dave
That's why it's called American torture. As far as I know this is an uniquely American things.

Dave

QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 5 2012, 07:21 PM) *
Gotta love what the Polish breeders have done with their Arabians. Any ideas on why his rider is sitting back nearly on the croup? GACK!!

2mntn
QUOTE (Dave @ Feb 5 2012, 01:03 PM) *
That's why it's called American torture. As far as I know this is an uniquely American things.

Dave


OH! I assumed the "torture" part had to do with the reins..
Dieter
QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 5 2012, 12:21 PM) *
Gotta love what the Polish breeders have done with their Arabians. Any ideas on why his rider is sitting back nearly on the croup? GACK!!

Because you can't ride that front end - it'd knock your fillings out. Or maybe it is a position thought to help the horse achieve more "lift" in the front end. From the video, I think something is up with his front legs/feet and he is toe flicking. Also, It seems he is not over tracking as much as I would have thought he should - not at the extended trot and often, not tracking in step - maybe it is because of the rider banging his bottom on the horse's loin or maybe it is his overall rear quarters structure - he certainly is trying to do his best to compensate though and his movement is very flashy. I like this horse, but would need to visit MSU and see him in the flesh both in his stall and out in the paddock before I could be relatively certain of what he is in the flesh.
Dave
There's no doubt that Emanor's movement is being distorted by the way he's being ridden. I have to say that I like his rider much more than most of the saddle seat riders I've seen.

I've seen Emanor twice and he looks much better in person than in his pictures or videos.

While his movement is most impressive, the best thing about him is his temperament. The first time I saw him, he was handled by his amateur owner.

Dave
Dieter
QUOTE (Dave @ Feb 7 2012, 12:51 AM) *
There's no doubt that Emanor's movement is being distorted by the way he's being ridden. I have to say that I like his rider much more than most of the saddle seat riders I've seen. I've seen Emanor twice and he looks much better in person than in his pictures or videos. While his movement is most impressive, the best thing about him is his temperament. The first time I saw him, he was handled by his amateur owner. Dave
He does have an overall impressive quality to him and temperament is one of the most important factors in an arabian IMO. I will be visiting MSU some time this spring and will make a point to look at Emanor in his stall and while he's turned out. The stallions at MSU get turn out every day on a schedule, rain or shine and they are handled by the students as all horses there are, so they'd better have a good head on their shoulders. It is really good to see them barefoot and doing their thing, just like the horses in my paddocks.
karin
Excellent this video Dave.

I am very much against Rollkür and Hyperflexion and this looks a very good training method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R7bx0fiJcI...feature=related - another one for the riders here!
Dieter
QUOTE (karin @ Feb 7 2012, 11:55 PM) *
Excellent this video Dave.

I am very much against Rollkür and Hyperflexion and this looks a very good training method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R7bx0fiJcI...feature=related - another one for the riders here!

So happy you shared this one . . . excellent smile.gif
Dave
Liz,

When you see Emanor. remember that he's 19 this year. The first time I saw him, he was handled by his owner Ron Hart.

Dave

QUOTE (Dieter @ Feb 7 2012, 02:07 PM) *
He does have an overall impressive quality to him and temperament is one of the most important factors in an arabian IMO. I will be visiting MSU some time this spring and will make a point to look at Emanor in his stall and while he's turned out. The stallions at MSU get turn out every day on a schedule, rain or shine and they are handled by the students as all horses there are, so they'd better have a good head on their shoulders. It is really good to see them barefoot and doing their thing, just like the horses in my paddocks.

Dave
Thanks for the Ausie video.

In the US, hyperflexion is the norm at Arabian shows. If one raises the issue of what it does to horse, people don't want to hear it. All that matters is winning. The show ring is about conformity rather than quality training and riding. If anyone doubts this just spend some time at the warmup arena at any show. It's very ugly.

Arabians deserve better.

Dave

QUOTE (karin @ Feb 8 2012, 05:55 AM) *
Excellent this video Dave.

I am very much against Rollkür and Hyperflexion and this looks a very good training method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R7bx0fiJcI...feature=related - another one for the riders here!

Dieter
QUOTE (Dave @ Feb 12 2012, 12:56 AM) *
Liz, When you see Emanor. remember that he's 19 this year. The first time I saw him, he was handled by his owner Ron Hart. Dave

Dave,

You bet . . . MSU has a reputation of only taking the best horses for use as stallions. Emanor wouldn't be there if he weren't top of the line - I am fairly certain of this. I look forward to seeing him and will report back, hopefully with photos and maybe a video of him turned out.

QUOTE
In the US, hyperflexion is the norm at Arabian shows. If one raises the issue of what it does to horse, people don't want to hear it. All that matters is winning. The show ring is about conformity rather than quality training and riding. If anyone doubts this just spend some time at the warmup arena at any show. It's very ugly. Arabians deserve better.


My sentiments exactly and that is why I will not sell any horse to a show home.

Liz
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