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HLM
We all know that the Arabian horse is the progenator of most all warmblood breeds. Over centuries Asil Arab blood was utlized to improve, stamina, easy keeping,endurance, speed etc, a DOING HORSE!.

While the Arabian horse is considered the most beautiful equine, that no other equine breed brings forth the intelligence and with it sensitivity, the love and affection for their owners, we must not forget these qualities
AND UTILIZE THEM WISELY.

The Bedus did not breed for horses to look at, to hug and kiss and adore, they bred for SURVIVAL, and their best were treasured highly. Only from these BEST they bred from, and their blood flows through the veins of our Arabians of today. How we handled this, is evident in many ways.

I always feel that turning these Arabians into PETS, GARDEN ORNAMENTS, turning many into mental and physical
retards is an insult to this sub-species. It stands to reason that at the time of the Bedus not every horse turned out to their liking as a DOING HORSE, or as a BREEDING HORSE, as it is today. Therefore careful grading should take place.
Horses which can not be considered special DOING HORSES, can easily be utlized as children horses, school horses
or pets in our pastures.There is nothing wrong with the latter at all. However, one can hardly consider these as breeding stock.

When we look back into the history of Eastern/Western nations, we notice that many a high commander, king or prince rode an Arabian horse into battle. Monuments of rider and horse are still visible in numerous countries.

I personally feel that ROMANCE does NOT belong in the breeding shed, but common sense should prevail.

How do you all feel about this?

Hansi

,
Kimberli
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 1 2012, 02:51 PM) *
We all know that the Arabian horse is the progenator of most all warmblood breeds. Over centuries Asil Arab blood was utlized to improve, stamina, easy keeping,endurance, speed etc, a DOING HORSE!.

While the Arabian horse is considered the most beautiful equine, that no other equine breed brings forth the intelligence and with it sensitivity, the love and affection for their owners, we must not forget these qualities
AND UTILIZE THEM WISELY.

The Bedus did not breed for horses to look at, to hug and kiss and adore, they bred for SURVIVAL, and their best were treasured highly. Only from these BEST they bred from, and their blood flows through the veins of our Arabians of today. How we handled this, is evident in many ways.

I always feel that turning these Arabians into PETS, GARDEN ORNAMENTS, turning many into mental and physical
retards is an insult to this sub-species. It stands to reason that at the time of the Bedus not every horse turned out to their liking as a DOING HORSE, or as a BREEDING HORSE, as it is today. Therefore careful grading should take place.
Horses which can not be considered special DOING HORSES, can easily be utlized as children horses, school horses
or pets in our pastures.There is nothing wrong with the latter at all. However, one can hardly consider these as breeding stock.

When we look back into the history of Eastern/Western nations, we notice that many a high commander, king or prince rode an Arabian horse into battle. Monuments of rider and horse are still visible in numerous countries.

I personally feel that ROMANCE does NOT belong in the breeding shed, but common sense should prevail.

How do you all feel about this?

Hansi

,


Hansi, I love you very much and I appreciate you for your common sense but I also love the dreamers of our world. Without them reading about our beautiful horses would be nothing more than lists. Please let everyone be what they are and stop trying to make everyone be like you. Try to appreciate people for what they add to our world even if it romantic.
Anjuli Bai
You are so right, Hansi.

But as long as the leader of the WAHO is producing and selling garden ornaments, nothing will change.

The German Arabian Registry just have released the breeding manager, Diether von Kleist, who has campaigned for ridden and correct horses.
Klaus Beste came back to take his place.

That was the decision of the association Board; the association members were not consulted. mad.gif

HLM
QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 1 2012, 04:57 PM) *
Hansi, I love you very much and I appreciate you for your common sense but I also love the dreamers of our world. Without them reading about our beautiful horses would be nothing more than lists. Please let everyone be what they are and stop trying to make everyone be like you. Try to appreciate people for what they add to our world even if it romantic.



Dear Kimberly

I always felt that the Bedus of llong ago and even up todate have given us something which needs great care and a sound sense of responsibillity. I am thinking and acting no different than millions of equine owners around the worl, and most certain understand that everybody should do as they please. I continue to remind of what a a horse is supposed to be and do, and the great pleasure so many have riding or driving they beloved horses. therefore, please take no offence, do as you feel is right for you but try to understand and reallize that an incredible sub-species, the Arabian horse, can some day vanish due to lack of true preservation. I realy dislike to see our future generation dealing with "rocking horses" (those wooden ones) as once GB Edwards had to do.

take care and thank you for giving you opinion.

Hansi






Kimberli
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 1 2012, 07:48 PM) *
Dear Kimberly

I always felt that the Bedus of llong ago and even up todate have given us something which needs great care and a sound sense of responsibillity. I am thinking and acting no different than millions of equine owners around the worl, and most certain understand that everybody should do as they please. I continue to remind of what a a horse is supposed to be and do, and the great pleasure so many have riding or driving they beloved horses. therefore, please take no offence, do as you feel is right for you but try to understand and reallize that an incredible sub-species, the Arabian horse, can some day vanish due to lack of true preservation. I realy dislike to see our future generation dealing with "rocking horses" (those wooden ones) as once GB Edwards had to do.

take care and thank you for giving you opinion.

Hansi



Hansi, you can do this without insulting anyone. The post above could and should have been your first post. It is not insulting yet states what you wanted to say. Kimberli
HLM
QUOTE (Anjuli Bai @ Mar 1 2012, 05:58 PM) *
You are so right, Hansi.

But as long as the leader of the WAHO is producing and selling garden ornaments, nothing will change.

The German Arabian Registry just have released the breeding manager, Diether von Kleist, who has campaigned for ridden and correct horses.
Klaus Beste came back to take his place.

That was the decision of the association Board; the association members were not consulted. mad.gif



DEar Anjuli Bai

I dont know Herrn Dieter von Kleist personally, but have seen Klaus Beste riding and winning an endurance race at Marchbach time ago.

At my time the Germans just loved riding, competed heavily up to Olympic levels successfully.
Is it not up to the members to let their wishes or concerns known and then vote on it?
Germany is doing well in endurance riding, dressage etc. and hopefully this will not only continue but
broadened.

I know that most all desert country persue the sport of riding, racing, etc. and possibly Kuwait will make a stronger appearance as well.

Good luck and best regards
Hansi
stuart
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 1 2012, 03:51 PM) *
We all know that the Arabian horse is the progenator of most all warmblood breeds. Over centuries Asil Arab blood was utlized to improve, stamina, easy keeping,endurance, speed etc, a DOING HORSE!.

While the Arabian horse is considered the most beautiful equine, that no other equine breed brings forth the intelligence and with it sensitivity, the love and affection for their owners, we must not forget these qualities
AND UTILIZE THEM WISELY.

The Bedus did not breed for horses to look at, to hug and kiss and adore, they bred for SURVIVAL, and their best were treasured highly. Only from these BEST they bred from, and their blood flows through the veins of our Arabians of today. How we handled this, is evident in many ways.

I always feel that turning these Arabians into PETS, GARDEN ORNAMENTS, turning many into mental and physical
retards is an insult to this sub-species. It stands to reason that at the time of the Bedus not every horse turned out to their liking as a DOING HORSE, or as a BREEDING HORSE, as it is today. Therefore careful grading should take place.
Horses which can not be considered special DOING HORSES, can easily be utlized as children horses, school horses
or pets in our pastures.There is nothing wrong with the latter at all. However, one can hardly consider these as breeding stock.

When we look back into the history of Eastern/Western nations, we notice that many a high commander, king or prince rode an Arabian horse into battle. Monuments of rider and horse are still visible in numerous countries.

I personally feel that ROMANCE does NOT belong in the breeding shed, but common sense should prevail.

How do you all feel about this?

Hansi

,


Dear Hansi,

All of the above does indeed have resonance, however it is necessary to remember that, for many of us, our Arabian horses are geographically displaced!
I will take a tank in a mares place into general battle wink.gif .....unless of course I wish to be swift and very quiet laugh.gif

The 'onus' should be on how to take these horses forward.... utilising all of their attributes....... into the time and the hemisphere in which the horse resides.

Embrace all of their usages and promote this,rather than condescend those that wish to use & enjoy them in a more sedentary way, even if only out on pasture...........and most breeders have a few of these!

Promote the more exciting partnership and you will have more listeners.

The in-hand horse seems to carry the larger following......... and yet nobody could decry the thrill of partnering an Arabian as his/her rider??

Until the thrill and ultimate goal once again....... becomes a ridden goal as history dictates and the future offers........ then the time is now, to bury hatchets of old and move forward to maintain what is remaining of both original and imported Arabian Horses.......because that is all that is really of interest.........not who or whom is shouting the loudest - or is on the erstwhile top rung of the ladder rolleyes.gif

Good thread.

My regards

Stuart.
HLM
QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 1 2012, 09:03 PM) *
Hansi, you can do this without insulting anyone. The post above could and should have been your first post. It is not insulting yet states what you wanted to say. Kimberli


Kimberly, I dont follow you. I had no intention, nor did I think I insulted. I stated what I feel, and many of my collegues feel this way too. You and I come from a different culture and express or behave accordingly.
I bit of understanding would go a long way. I also dont know how much clearer I can express my self, being so deeply concerned about the horses, all of them.

Hansi
HLM
QUOTE (stuart @ Mar 1 2012, 10:48 PM) *
Dear Hansi,

All of the above does indeed have resonance, however it is necessary to remember that, for many of us, our Arabian horses are geographically displaced!
I will take a tank in a mares place into general battle wink.gif .....unless of course I wish to be swift and very quiet laugh.gif

The 'onus' should be on how to take these horses forward.... utilising all of their attributes....... into the time and the hemisphere in which the horse resides.

Embrace all of their usages and promote this,rather than condescend those that wish to use & enjoy them in a more sedentary way, even if only out on pasture...........and most breeders have a few of these!

Promote the more exciting partnership and you will have more listeners.

The in-hand horse seems to carry the larger following......... and yet nobody could decry the thrill of partnering an Arabian as his/her rider??

Until the thrill and ultimate goal once again....... becomes a ridden goal as history dictates and the future offers........ then the time is now, to bury hatchets of old and move forward to maintain what is remaining of both original and imported Arabian Horses.......because that is all that is really of interest.........not who or whom is shouting the loudest - or is on the erstwhile top rung of the ladder rolleyes.gif

Good thread.

My regards

Stuart.



yes dear Stuart you are right. However, I am deeply concerned about many of the Arabian horses which neverr saw a saddle and could do it all, I am worried that these magnificent horses indeed turn in to mental or physical vegtables, as a human would be, denied proper exercise and exposure.

I showed on halter hundreds of times, but these halter horses were also under saddle. My collegues at that time did the same and the SE in particular was put on the Map, so to speak. From day one of imports to here and Canada the Arabians were used, given the chance to develop mind and body. The ones denied all this are to me like a child looking out of the window seeing his playmates involved in football game, or hockey, or whatever, and such child looking out of the window watching it disallowed to join.

A human being developes his/her brain by using it constantly. Same goes for the body.
But so does the horse, the dogs or other animals. I have horses in pasture and dont like it for some.
I understand if also others have trouble getting adequate help, in particular riders. However, my stallions are always trained and enjoyed it. Serenity Mamlouk will be a full 33 years of age on March 8th. He raced,won, was trained,etc.etc. For about two years he exercises himself for 2 hours on a cirle in his paddock, goes in to eat and drink and then continues another 2 hours, this all day long. He is keeping himself healthy and up, and that on bis own.
He is telling me a lot. My mares have to run 3/4 of a mile to get to drink or eat, and keep themselves in top condition.
I feel certain that those belonging to many of our collegues do the same.

The Desertbred, the Asil, regardless of what label it is given,. is a very intelligent, sensitive and curious individual.
Gets borred so easy, even in training, unless being taught every day something new. I guess this is why many love going on trails, outings, etc. Always something new to see and hear, eh..


However, each to its own, I can lead a horse to water but cant make it drink

Take care
Hansi
.
Nadj al Nur
Somehow, I don't think you can separate the romance of the Arabian horse from the horse itself..The romance of this particular breed of horse is PART of the reality. It's long history is part of the romance. It's beauty is part of the romance. It's extraordinary ability to bond with humans, and work together as a full partner, is part of it's romance. It's innately gentle and yet highly spirited nature is part of the romance.If you try to separate those things from the Arabian horse, you are losing a great part of what he is, whether it is in the breeding shed, or outside of it.
Cathy
HADHAD ARABIANS
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 1 2012, 03:51 PM) *
We all know that the Arabian horse is the progenator of most all warmblood breeds. Over centuries Asil Arab blood was utlized to improve, stamina, easy keeping,endurance, speed etc, a DOING HORSE!.

While the Arabian horse is considered the most beautiful equine, that no other equine breed brings forth the intelligence and with it sensitivity, the love and affection for their owners, we must not forget these qualities
AND UTILIZE THEM WISELY.

The Bedus did not breed for horses to look at, to hug and kiss and adore, they bred for SURVIVAL, and their best were treasured highly. Only from these BEST they bred from, and their blood flows through the veins of our Arabians of today. How we handled this, is evident in many ways.

I always feel that turning these Arabians into PETS, GARDEN ORNAMENTS, turning many into mental and physical
retards is an insult to this sub-species. It stands to reason that at the time of the Bedus not every horse turned out to their liking as a DOING HORSE, or as a BREEDING HORSE, as it is today. Therefore careful grading should take place.
Horses which can not be considered special DOING HORSES, can easily be utlized as children horses, school horses
or pets in our pastures.There is nothing wrong with the latter at all. However, one can hardly consider these as breeding stock.

When we look back into the history of Eastern/Western nations, we notice that many a high commander, king or prince rode an Arabian horse into battle. Monuments of rider and horse are still visible in numerous countries.

I personally feel that ROMANCE does NOT belong in the breeding shed, but common sense should prevail.

How do you all feel about this?

Hansi

,


gbfahne.gif
Dear Hansi,

I live in Maremma, the land that Michelangelo Merisi (called Caravaggio) crossed in the last days of his wild life; he died on the beach of Porto Ercole, killed by malarial fever: it was july 18th 1610.
The Maremma is also the land that saw the raids of Saracens and is land of horses, so I can understand very well your thought that I share; unfortunately, broadly speaking, I don't believe in the ruling class of our associations, otherwise we didn't have come to such a point.
"I always felt that the Bedus of llong ago and even up todate have given us something which needs great care and a sound sense of responsibillity." This phrase you wrote is very right.

Best regards,
Domenico Tocchi

HADHAD ARABIANS
www.hadhad-arabians.com
stuart
Qouting Hansi......."The Desertbred, the Asil, regardless of what label it is given,. is a very intelligent, sensitive and curious individual.
Gets borred so easy, even in training, unless being taught every day something new. I guess this is why many love going on trails, outings, etc. Always something new to see and hear, eh."

Dear Hansi,

On the above.... I can only happily agree.

Nadj al Nur Posted Today, 11:29 PM
Somehow, I don't think you can separate the romance of the Arabian horse from the horse itself..The romance of this particular breed of horse is PART of the reality. It's long history is part of the romance. It's beauty is part of the romance. It's extraordinary ability to bond with humans, and work together as a full partner, is part of it's romance. It's innately gentle and yet highly spirited nature is part of the romance.If you try to separate those things from the Arabian horse, you are losing a great part of what he is, whether it is in the breeding shed, or outside of it.
Cathy

Dear Cathy,
The above is the main part of what keeps many of us wholeheartedly clinched to the breed.........and may be one of the reasons for folks primary interest.

What is the way forward though? To promote this breed into 2013 and far beyond?
We already know that Halter showing is the main recognition for the breed....... Why? How has every other strength become drowned and lost?

I am curious as to how the Arabian is now known in the 2000's as an in-hand exibit primarily...... rather than for any other reason i.e Distance/Endurance - I cannot believe it is solely due to Dollar/Pound/Euro advantage. My suggestion is that is more due to the enthusiastic 1 or 2 horse owner/producer/breeder having given up trying to find a "voice" anymore!!

The main interest for any Arabian Horse loyalist should be, to encourage the guardians of the Arab in todays world to find their voice in writing and, show the rest of us the way forward.........or remind us what may have been forgotten as a primary objective!

If all the horses are gone in 50 years........ it really will not matter who their mother was - let alone their father ....... or what strain they did or did not carry ohmy.gif .........

............because Arabians in Asil or any other form will follow the Dodo through rhetoric and no action unsure.gif



HLM
QUOTE (stuart @ Mar 2 2012, 12:13 AM) *
Qouting Hansi......."The Desertbred, the Asil, regardless of what label it is given,. is a very intelligent, sensitive and curious individual.
Gets borred so easy, even in training, unless being taught every day something new. I guess this is why many love going on trails, outings, etc. Always something new to see and hear, eh."

Dear Hansi,

On the above.... I can only happily agree.

Nadj al Nur Posted Today, 11:29 PM
Somehow, I don't think you can separate the romance of the Arabian horse from the horse itself..The romance of this particular breed of horse is PART of the reality. It's long history is part of the romance. It's beauty is part of the romance. It's extraordinary ability to bond with humans, and work together as a full partner, is part of it's romance. It's innately gentle and yet highly spirited nature is part of the romance.If you try to separate those things from the Arabian horse, you are losing a great part of what he is, whether it is in the breeding shed, or outside of it.
Cathy

Dear Cathy,
The above is the main part of what keeps many of us wholeheartedly clinched to the breed.........and may be one of the reasons for folks primary interest.

What is the way forward though? To promote this breed into 2013 and far beyond?
We already know that Halter showing is the main recognition for the breed....... Why? How has every other strength become drowned and lost?

I am curious as to how the Arabian is now known in the 2000's as an in-hand exibit primarily...... rather than for any other reason i.e Distance/Endurance - I cannot believe it is solely due to Dollar/Pound/Euro advantage. My suggestion is that is more due to the enthusiastic 1 or 2 horse owner/producer/breeder having given up trying to find a "voice" anymore!!

The main interest for any Arabian Horse loyalist should be, to encourage the guardians of the Arab in todays world to find their voice in writing and, show the rest of us the way forward.........or remind us what may have been forgotten as a primary objective!

If all the horses are gone in 50 years........ it really will not matter who their mother was - let alone their father ....... or what strain they did or did not carry ohmy.gif .........

............because Arabians in Asil or any other form will follow the Dodo through rhetoric and no action unsure.gif



Der Stuart

I wish I could write as elequantly as you do, but realize that you understand what I am trying to convey.

I have seen with our smaller breeders horses with such excellent fundament, great substance, flying machines.
I have seen some of these with our large breeders too, except they were only shown at halter. Each one of these one wantsto put a saddle on and ride through the winde blue yanders, so to speak.
As a rider, when I see a good horse, with excellen movevent and that gentle eye, fire burning within, I pray it be given half a chance. I look ino their brains (please dont laugh now as I can feel what they are thinking) just wanting to bust out and run and run and run some more. Its like a child, wanting to play, but attached to mother's hand.

Its not only all that, what I fear is how one can truly judge a horse without testing under saddle, how one can decide what to breed to what and truly help preserving. Our large breeders of the past all tested their horses, and mated them accordingly.

As far as romance is concerned, no problem, but at the end performance counts. I dont hink that Arabians in the very past were bought because of romance, they were bought and bred to go to battle, do other work and sustain their owners.

I think of the great "Maidan" a desert bred who did the steeple chase in England against TBs at age 20, and again at age 25 a three miler. I think of Dwarka, Alfragan, Shahzada, Robin, Belka, Fedaan, Sainfoin, Kimaree, Outlaw, Maid of the Moot, Shwaima ,Ramia , etvc.etc. and of course "Astraled" who walked from Oregon to New Hampshire in 21 days at age 22 in 1922 while his daughter Ramla winning here the 310 mile race. and then walk/run all he way back. Many of the above horses are recorded in the English records.

These are the Arab horses who guide me. It took many centuries to build, can we alow to have it destroyed in a decade or two? I truly feel that we must constantly remind of facts, not fictions or romance alone, and try our best to maintain HONOR for the Arabian Horses.

Take care
Hansi


Nadj al Nur
You know, Hansi, I agree with a lot of what you say. I too think that our horses should "have a job" so to speak, but another part of the reality is, that things are not the same as they were fifty or sixty or seventy years ago when horses were a neccesary thing in a lot more places than they are now. There are no war horses anymore. That is now part of the romance. Most people have horses because they love them and love being around horses but there are not a lot of places where horses are NEEDED to do a days work anymore (there are still some though) A lot of people are not competitve at all. They don't care if they have ribbons or trophies or if their horse wins at something...........and I know that you always say testing can be at home and all of that, but I think you would be amazed at what a lot of the horses are still doing, herding cattle, pulling buggies, carts etc.Some people think that trail horses are somehow inferior to other disciplines, but believe me, they need to be just as tough and smart and willing as any other working horse. It's just that they get none of the recognition of the "winners" They are like the invisible majority that nobody ever hears of. They are out there, in the thousands, quietly doing what they do and bringing great joy to their people, and being very useful in that way. I think that counts for a lot.
Kimberli
5 year old stallion - 14 year old girl - girl 100 of hours in the saddle - stallion? his 2nd time being ridden.

Straight Egyptian

tracek
I think this is a very interesting topic.

QUOTE
Gets borred so easy, even in training, unless being taught every day something new. I guess this is why many love going on trails, outings, etc. Always something new to see and hear, eh..


QUOTE
I don't think you can separate the romance of the Arabian horse from the horse itself


I agree with both of these quotes.

I think that people should still be aiming to breed functional Arabians. What I mean by that is that the horse you breed should still have the conformation and athleticism to perform under saddle. They may not necessarily have the opportunity to be tested, but they should still have the physical characteristics that should the opportunity arise, they will prove themselves able under saddle.

Sometimes I look at the legs/bodies/movement of horses that have clearly been bred for 'beauty' only and they do not look like the would be able to perform, and some certainly don't look like they would be comfortable/pleasant to ride either. Breed with a focus for beauty and romance if thats what takes you yes, but not at the expense of usefulness.

Sadly situations can change suddenly and your beautiful piece of lawn art may wind up in a place where they need to earn their supper; and if they're are only good for looking at then the future may not be bright for them.
Liz Salmon
Having been with the breed since 1963, a lot has indeed changed—not always for the better. I had my own breeding farm in the UK and every single horse I bred was broken to saddle if not sold before 4 years old as I was able to do it myself. Nowadays, with the economy I can quite understand that those with the love of the breed maybe cannot afford to have their horses trained under saddle, although it would be highly beneficial to do so. At the moment, I care much more about the welfare of the horses, as I have seen so many breeding programs out of control with results that produces starving horses. Many sad cases have been posted on this site.

I do think that everyone is entitled to do what pleases them and if it is only to get pleasure from looking after them and watching them in pastures—then it's their choice. As Hansi said 'each to his own.'

My home bred stallion Hassani of Fairfield who was a Champion in Halter and under saddle, competed in Hunter Trials, Eventing and Endurance. I owned him from the day he was born to the day he died aged 20. He won the Anglo Arab get of sire 4 years running at British Nationals as breeding Anglos was his forte. Pictured here with me on board.
HLM
QUOTE (tracek @ Mar 2 2012, 06:25 AM) *
I think this is a very interesting topic.





I agree with both of these quotes.

I think that people should still be aiming to breed functional Arabians. What I mean by that is that the horse you breed should still have the conformation and athleticism to perform under saddle. They may not necessarily have the opportunity to be tested, but they should still have the physical characteristics that should the opportunity arise, they will prove themselves able under saddle.

Sometimes I look at the legs/bodies/movement of horses that have clearly been bred for 'beauty' only and they do not look like the would be able to perform, and some certainly don't look like they would be comfortable/pleasant to ride either. Breed with a focus for beauty and romance if thats what takes you yes, but not at the expense of usefulness.

Sadly situations can change suddenly and your beautiful piece of lawn art may wind up in a place where they need to earn their supper; and if they're are only good for looking at then the future may not be bright for them.



So true. I was more or less aiming at our large breeders, here and in Europe, who could lead as the importers of the past did. I am a great fan of Michael Byat, a rider, driver, etc and often wonder what he thinks and feels when presenting an excellent horse. Grat trainers, as he is, can influence and would never lose respect.

But I am also aiming at our organizations who can influence and do their part in what we are discussing here.
While Al Khamsa is doing all they can, as is the Asil Club, Germany the PS could do better in my opinion and could change.

Here in florida we have a lot of trail riders, they also participade in Parades, and many ride an Arabian horse. these are mostly geldings or mares they dont want to breed. Indeed trail riding is often not that easy and it does take a good horse to stay sound and go on for many years.

Take care
hansi
tkr9
Sorry to pop in, as I haven't been around in the forum for a while, but this is one topic I really am passionate about.

All of use commenting here are strong supporters of the idea of the Arabian as a useful, athletic, superb all-rounder, with immense stamina and agility, (not to mention lovely temperament smile.gif ) War horses from the desert.

The problem is, though much work has been done, and great... no... huge strides made, I still feel that the Arabian horse community as a whole is still far behind. The breeders still choose the stallions who win at shows, and those new to the breed, new to the AHA or the British AHS look to shows as a presentation showroom of the breed - and it is the way the non-Arabian horse world see us and the breed.

I really think until we make athleticism, stamina and health a pre-requisite for breeding - as so many other breed associations do, the large number of really dedicated breeders who produce useful horses will be drowned out by the rest of the show world.

Until performance testing is required for horses as it is for so many other breeds - and as Poland and Russia chose to do by racing their animals - in order for them to be registered for breeding, and until the performance element of our Arabian shows is fully integrated as part of the requirement to find a Champion, all we are doing in this part of the forum is agreeing with each other.

If I had my way (and it may be a good thing I don't biggrin.gif ) I would insist a supreme champion at any major show - and particularly a national show - would have to win points in-hand (to assess conformation and type) and under saddle (to test rideability) in order to qualify.

It seems surreal that most of the ridden Arabian classes I've seen are full of geldings! Horses we've chosen NOT to breed from!

I don't hold out much hope either for stallion performance testing or more all-rounder shows. But ultimately the arab horse was a war horse, practical, tough, brave, athletic and gorgeous. I worry sometimes, watching my favourite breed at shows and putting up with all the hideous comments from the horse community who look down on Arabians, and, though not to open a can of worms, the terrifyingly high inbreeding coefficient ratios (in the general genetic sense) that we are going down the same route as dog breeders. All of us love our horses so much, and strive to ensure sound legs, sound wind, a good heart, health and stamina - and type and beauty, but this is simply not what I'm seeing in the ring.

Except in veteran classes.
2mntn
QUOTE (tkr9 @ Mar 2 2012, 08:24 PM) *
Sorry to pop in, as I haven't been around in the forum for a while, but this is one topic I really am passionate about.

All of use commenting here are strong supporters of the idea of the Arabian as a useful, athletic, superb all-rounder, with immense stamina and agility, (not to mention lovely temperament smile.gif ) War horses from the desert.

The problem is, though much work has been done, and great... no... huge strides made, I still feel that the Arabian horse community as a whole is still far behind. The breeders still choose the stallions who win at shows, and those new to the breed, new to the AHA or the British AHS look to shows as a presentation showroom of the breed - and it is the way the non-Arabian horse world see us and the breed.

I really think until we make athleticism, stamina and health a pre-requisite for breeding - as so many other breed associations do, the large number of really dedicated breeders who produce useful horses will be drowned out by the rest of the show world.

Until performance testing is required for horses as it is for so many other breeds - and as Poland and Russia chose to do by racing their animals - in order for them to be registered for breeding, and until the performance element of our Arabian shows is fully integrated as part of the requirement to find a Champion, all we are doing in this part of the forum is agreeing with each other.

If I had my way (and it may be a good thing I don't biggrin.gif ) I would insist a supreme champion at any major show - and particularly a national show - would have to win points in-hand (to assess conformation and type) and under saddle (to test rideability) in order to qualify.

It seems surreal that most of the ridden Arabian classes I've seen are full of geldings! Horses we've chosen NOT to breed from!

I don't hold out much hope either for stallion performance testing or more all-rounder shows. But ultimately the arab horse was a war horse, practical, tough, brave, athletic and gorgeous. I worry sometimes, watching my favourite breed at shows and putting up with all the hideous comments from the horse community who look down on Arabians, and, though not to open a can of worms, the terrifyingly high inbreeding coefficient ratios (in the general genetic sense) that we are going down the same route as dog breeders. All of us love our horses so much, and strive to ensure sound legs, sound wind, a good heart, health and stamina - and type and beauty, but this is simply not what I'm seeing in the ring.

Except in veteran classes.


Hear! Hear!!

So glad you popped in. Might as well include the so-called "World Champions" in your list. It is too bad that the "ruling majority" of owners of the greatest breed of light horse on the planet are amateur hobbyists.
HLM
QUOTE (tkr9 @ Mar 3 2012, 05:24 AM) *
Sorry to pop in, as I haven't been around in the forum for a while, but this is one topic I really am passionate about.

All of use commenting here are strong supporters of the idea of the Arabian as a useful, athletic, superb all-rounder, with immense stamina and agility, (not to mention lovely temperament smile.gif ) War horses from the desert.

The problem is, though much work has been done, and great... no... huge strides made, I still feel that the Arabian horse community as a whole is still far behind. The breeders still choose the stallions who win at shows, and those new to the breed, new to the AHA or the British AHS look to shows as a presentation showroom of the breed - and it is the way the non-Arabian horse world see us and the breed.

I really think until we make athleticism, stamina and health a pre-requisite for breeding - as so many other breed associations do, the large number of really dedicated breeders who produce useful horses will be drowned out by the rest of the show world.

Until performance testing is required for horses as it is for so many other breeds - and as Poland and Russia chose to do by racing their animals - in order for them to be registered for breeding, and until the performance element of our Arabian shows is fully integrated as part of the requirement to find a Champion, all we are doing in this part of the forum is agreeing with each other.

If I had my way (and it may be a good thing I don't biggrin.gif ) I would insist a supreme champion at any major show - and particularly a national show - would have to win points in-hand (to assess conformation and type) and under saddle (to test rideability) in order to qualify.

It seems surreal that most of the ridden Arabian classes I've seen are full of geldings! Horses we've chosen NOT to breed from!

I don't hold out much hope either for stallion performance testing or more all-rounder shows. But ultimately the arab horse was a war horse, practical, tough, brave, athletic and gorgeous. I worry sometimes, watching my favourite breed at shows and putting up with all the hideous comments from the horse community who look down on Arabians, and, though not to open a can of worms, the terrifyingly high inbreeding coefficient ratios (in the general genetic sense) that we are going down the same route as dog breeders. All of us love our horses so much, and strive to ensure sound legs, sound wind, a good heart, health and stamina - and type and beauty, but this is simply not what I'm seeing in the ring.

Except in veteran classes.


Dear Liz, Ray, Tkr9 and all

I started ths topic to draw attention to the "romance" many have with the Arabian horse. But where does it get us forgetting that the Aabian is 'HORSE"? We idiolize people who talk/write "Romance" with flowers in their mouth/mind and lead many a person into an unreal world, some even being a Jackel and Hyde. I consider myself a romantisist, dream as other do, but also know that only very few dreams come true (if I make them) and that reality sustains.

To me there is nothing more beuatiful than an Arabian horse under saddle where one can truly judge the horse as a horse. It is so hurting when I hear bad remarks about "the Arabian horse" but they are right, have every reason
to issue them and we just sit there and do little about it. I never blamed/blame our smaller breeders, but some of the large ones here and abroad who manage to ruin the breed step by step. What are they thinking? What is their purpose to breed Arabians? I guess it is the bank account. Worse yet, such are idiolized and copied. They are marketing "Romance/Dreams" and must be laughing all the way to the bank.

It truly breaks my heart that our Pyramid Society is NOT helping reality and did not promote the endurance rides at the EE. Unless I understood it wrong, the EE in Europe at their Sept.show in Belgium will have dressage etc classes.
F Schwesterman's wife Janet has been/is an ardent rider, coming from the old school and I think influences.

Liz (Salmon) also you come from the old school and could influence a lot. I could never see a 500,000 mare, who never produced a doing horse being evaluated this way, because those I saw might be worth a tiny fraction of it.
It could take generation to outbreed what was bred in badly over the past decades. But these horses are beautiful to look at, and there is where the "romance" comes in I guess. We both have seen also In Qatar good horses, some stables breeding for excellent performance horses, and such were beautiful as well. We saw others, which did not fit a muster.

Unless we leave the "romance" the the "Dreamers". and get back to reality our beloved breed is in Danger!.

Just my sincere opinion

Hansi

Liz Salmon
A horse is only worth what a buyer will pay for it—if a buyer has the money to buy an expensively priced horse for what ever reason romantic or otherwise, it's their choice and business. My evaluations these days in this economy have to be very realistic. I can only advise. It is very hard to influence anyone that wants to go their own way. I do think that by aggressively pounding the subject only turns people off. Honey is better than vinegar IMO.

Only yesterday I was shown a horse that was priced at $130,000 !! More like $15-20,000 if that, the buyer was given no education on either conformation or pedigree. I do recommend that many horses I look at get shown in Sport Horse both in hand and under saddle—it's a great avenue and can be done very inexpensively as there is no heavy conditioning or training. Owners can show themselves provided they can run fast enough and can ride well enough to show under saddle !! What's more they can have fun doing it.
2mntn
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Mar 3 2012, 08:13 AM) *
A horse is only worth what a buyer will pay for it—if a buyer has the money to buy an expensively priced horse for what ever reason romantic or otherwise, it's their choice and business. My evaluations these days in this economy have to be very realistic. I can only advise. It is very hard to influence anyone that wants to go their own way. I do think that by aggressively pounding the subject only turns people off. Honey is better than vinegar IMO.

Only yesterday I was shown a horse that was priced at $130,000 !! More like $15-20,000 if that, the buyer was given no education on either conformation or pedigree. I do recommend that many horses I look at get shown in Sport Horse both in hand and under saddle—it's a great avenue and can be done very inexpensively as there is no heavy conditioning or training. Owners can show themselves provided they can run fast enough and can ride well enough to show under saddle !! What's more they can have fun doing it.


Speaking of evaluation, there is another aspect far removed from romance. That aspect would be the reality of the various genetic diseases. How are people dealing with this? Are horses who are carriers of "whatever" being set aside from consideration, or are people willing and able to deal with that aspect?
HLM
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Mar 3 2012, 04:13 PM) *
A horse is only worth what a buyer will pay for it—if a buyer has the money to buy an expensively priced horse for what ever reason romantic or otherwise, it's their choice and business. My evaluations these days in this economy have to be very realistic. I can only advise. It is very hard to influence anyone that wants to go their own way. I do think that by aggressively pounding the subject only turns people off. Honey is better than vinegar IMO.

Only yesterday I was shown a horse that was priced at $130,000 !! More like $15-20,000 if that, the buyer was given no education on either conformation or pedigree. I do recommend that many horses I look at get shown in Sport Horse both in hand and under saddle—it's a great avenue and can be done very inexpensively as there is no heavy conditioning or training. Owners can show themselves provided they can run fast enough and can ride well enough to show under saddle !! What's more they can have fun doing it.



Dear Liz

Aggressively is a wrong word I feel, Disclosure is a better one. I have seen 500,000 mares I would not give 5,000 for, because I would not know what to do with them, other than leaving them in pasture.
You stated yourself that a buyer of a $130,000 horse has been ill adviised. If a buyer has that kind of money, would it not be good if such were influenced to buy a horse which can be ridden?

You were in Oman and saw what I saw. Hundreds of young ones riding and the Sultan promoting it.
I know, we cant do this here, but we can discuss honest evaluation. We need to also consider what sellers of such
incredible, unrealitstic prices are doing with it? Are they truly furthering the breed, or just using it to maintain certain power/influence for their own what could be greed? So where does Romance start and reality stop?

However, I dont think you and I can change a lot, people are people and the saying monkey see monkey do will be reality. Therefore, as said before, each to its own.

Hansi,
Fairfax
I have mares who I breed who I have never ridden nor had trained. THIS IS BAD..I agree. How many of you also have mares, stallions etc who have never been trained? Or, am I the only one?
HLM
QUOTE (Fairfax @ Mar 3 2012, 06:51 PM) *
I have mares who I breed who I have never ridden nor had trained. THIS IS BAD..I agree. How many of you also have mares, stallions etc who have never been trained? Or, am I the only one?



No you are not, I am in the same boat, cant find a rider. Fortunately I am tlaking about my young ones-yearlings to incomplete 3year olds.

May be because not to many people are riding/traning, or getting too old and britle that we can find riders/groomes, ?

The UAE brings in young riders from eastern nations, and those who used to ride the camels before those roboter jockeys came along, now be riding horses, and riding well by enlarge.

Take care
Hansi
Dave
That's why I love the sport
Dave
Liz,

That's why I love the sport horse division. Also, generally the judges are well trained and very nice to exhibitors. That's not always the case in main ring.

My only problem with sport horse is that it doesn't have the prestige that it deserves. I know owners who think sport horse is the kiss of death for a breeding stallion. Some how this needs to change.

Dave

QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Mar 3 2012, 04:13 PM) *
A horse is only worth what a buyer will pay for it—if a buyer has the money to buy an expensively priced horse for what ever reason romantic or otherwise, it's their choice and business. My evaluations these days in this economy have to be very realistic. I can only advise. It is very hard to influence anyone that wants to go their own way. I do think that by aggressively pounding the subject only turns people off. Honey is better than vinegar IMO.

Only yesterday I was shown a horse that was priced at $130,000 !! More like $15-20,000 if that, the buyer was given no education on either conformation or pedigree. I do recommend that many horses I look at get shown in Sport Horse both in hand and under saddle—it's a great avenue and can be done very inexpensively as there is no heavy conditioning or training. Owners can show themselves provided they can run fast enough and can ride well enough to show under saddle !! What's more they can have fun doing it.

HLM
QUOTE (Dave @ Mar 3 2012, 07:06 PM) *
Liz,

That's why I love the sport horse division. Also, generally the judges are well trained and very nice to exhibitors. That's not always the case in main ring.

My only problem with sport horse is that it doesn't have the prestige that it deserves. I know owners who think sport horse is the kiss of death for a breeding stallion. Some how this needs to change.

Dave



Dave, owners who think this way cant be breeders of equine, any.they are missing the point. It could also be these who will drive the Arabian Horses into the mud.

I still cant understand how anybody wants to breed horses, and does not, or never did ride or drive.
Why would anybody buy a car, if they dont drive?

Sportshorses are so much fun for both rider and horse. Sporthorses of any breed have always been held, will always be held in high prestige I think. What are we leaving our young generation, wooden rocking horses, horses they lead and cant ride? It just does not make sense.

take care
Hansi
Mr Prospector
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 3 2012, 03:40 AM) *
Hear! Hear!!

So glad you popped in. Might as well include the so-called "World Champions" in your list. It is too bad that the "ruling majority" of owners of the greatest breed of light horse on the planet are amateur hobbyists.


... as opposed to professional hobbyists...

It is not and never has been cheap to have a horse broken in or a rider trained to ride. When people like Liz, Hansi and myself were younger training our own horses was not a problem, you were young enough to take the falls and have the patience with the younger horses. One would just let the kids play around with quiet ponies and throw a leg over the quieter ones, give them a bit of a clue how to stay on, steer and use the brakes. The serious kids took a serious interest and you spent the time improving their riding so that they learned better riding skills, or if you were financially enabled, sent them to riding school.

Over the years it has become very expensive to send a horse away for breaking in and basic training (my last quote about 5 years ago was $3000 for three weeks). Mind you, it was the basis for the horse to become a dressage/eventer and I was aware that it would be very expensive because of that. I was rather disappointed my boy died just before going off ...

A lady who rented a small field where we ajisted before moving here 8 years ago, a Riding Instructor diploma holder (!) charged back then $55 per hour on your own horse and $65 for one of hers. I had only asked out of curiousity. I consider that to become a good rider, one would need to be riding a few times per week, which at that rate would add up quite quickly.

As I have gotten older, I have sold off all but two of my horses. Now I just have an elderly Nabiel granddaughter and a TB mare I have owned since she was a 2 year old. Considering my poor health these days, I am lucky. I find feeding these two expensive enough as it is, I would hate to be feeding even a small herd, with droughts and bush fires some years and equally devastating floods in between, never mind fuel prices rising, etc. and I live in a better off country not as badly affected by the world financial crisis as others ....

So if someone can only afford to keep so called "lawn ornaments" maybe it is better than the knackery/glue factory even if once they were a "biggie" (and I am not referring to the recent fiasco Fairfax has highlighted) ... even if they still are biggies trying to do the right thing by their horses as well as their trainers...
HLM
QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Mar 3 2012, 08:20 PM) *
... as opposed to professional hobbyists...

It is not and never has been cheap to have a horse broken in or a rider trained to ride. When people like Liz, Hansi and myself were younger training our own horses was not a problem, you were young enough to take the falls and have the patience with the younger horses. One would just let the kids play around with quiet ponies and throw a leg over the quieter ones, give them a bit of a clue how to stay on, steer and use the brakes. The serious kids took a serious interest and you spent the time improving their riding so that they learned better riding skills, or if you were financially enabled, sent them to riding school.

Over the years it has become very expensive to send a horse away for breaking in and basic training (my last quote about 5 years ago was $3000 for three weeks). Mind you, it was the basis for the horse to become a dressage/eventer and I was aware that it would be very expensive because of that. I was rather disappointed my boy died just before going off ...

A lady who rented a small field where we ajisted before moving here 8 years ago, a Riding Instructor diploma holder (!) charged back then $55 per hour on your own horse and $65 for one of hers. I had only asked out of curiousity. I consider that to become a good rider, one would need to be riding a few times per week, which at that rate would add up quite quickly.

As I have gotten older, I have sold off all but two of my horses. Now I just have an elderly Nabiel granddaughter and a TB mare I have owned since she was a 2 year old. Considering my poor health these days, I am lucky. I find feeding these two expensive enough as it is, I would hate to be feeding even a small herd, with droughts and bush fires some years and equally devastating floods in between, never mind fuel prices rising, etc. and I live in a better off country not as badly affected by the world financial crisis as others ....

So if someone can only afford to keep so called "lawn ornaments" maybe it is better than the knackery/glue factory even if once they were a "biggie" (and I am not referring to the recent fiasco Fairfax has highlighted) ... even if they still are biggies trying to do the right thing by their horses as well as their trainers...



Yes you are right. Owning a horse has always been a luxury for many and going through proper training costs a fortune. Even at my time I spent $ 20,000 per year to be taught, and that's decades ago.

But so are other sports, tennis, gold, field and track, scating, etc, considering just the sport. With equine, one also has the upkeep . At my time all equine breeders bred for performacne horses, either to compete or for own pleasure.
In the warmbloods there used to be price moneys, sometimes a million dollar, as are in the flat racing of TBs.

It therefore boils down to one thing, a person wanting a good horse to ride, possibly compete. For this they can find a good boarding stable with possibly good instructors. Bill's nice is in the saddle since age 5/6, took lessons on all sorts of horses and now at over age ten is doing well. She graduated from strange looking horses to an "Arab" now, cant believe the enormous difference. It is her love affair and some day, when ready, will own herself a horse of quality.
I assure you she did not rent the Arab because of ROMANCE, BUT BECAUSE OF DISPOSITION, ATTITUDE AND TALENTS.And she goes there every afternoon after her homework is done, helps cleaning stalls, grooming etc.etc.
All this costs a lot of money, lessons, rent for the horse, board, etc.etc. there are others who love the sport and parents sacrifice to have them taught well. this goes for any serious sport I think.

the good thing is that with an Arab Horse one can quickly go on trail rides and do a lot of other things. With a warmblood its a differnt story, it can take years. Promoting the ARab Horse even for pleasure riding would help
the breed a lot. and what do we say "THE INSIDE OF A HORSE IS GOOD FOR THE OUTSIDE OF MEN" and 'THE OUTSIDE OF A HORSE GOOD FOR THE INSIDE OF MEN"
and the Germans say" Dass Glueck auf dieser Erde liegt auf dem Ruecken unserer Pferde"
(the happiness on this earth is on the back of our horses" (meaning riding)

Take care
hansi





2mntn
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 3 2012, 09:24 AM) *
Speaking of evaluation, there is another aspect far removed from romance. That aspect would be the reality of the various genetic diseases. How are people dealing with this? Are horses who are carriers of "whatever" being set aside from consideration, or are people willing and able to deal with that aspect?



Anyone??
tkr9
I think the cost and time you invest in breaking and training an animal, compared to the likelihood of then being able to sell it on, is problematic, but it's a chicken-egg thing. If we don't start putting good athletic, well trained horses on the market - and at shows (I shall eventually give up calling for the AHS to require its champions to go under saddle at their annual show) you won't get people interested. Warmbloods became extremely fashionable and people, here in the UK, flocked to buy a 'Continental Sports Horse', only to find they cost a fortune to import and would eat fifty times their bodyweight just to maintain condition or were, for some, just too big.

Arabs have that stamina and athleticism, some are good doers, but with others they can survive on tough rations thanks to their desert heritage, and they have a beautiful temperament. We just gotta figure out some way of making them popular choices for owners again. But I do appreciate it's tricky. Looking at the studs now, if you want something broken to ride you have to opt for an old mare or a gelding. The rest are just youngstock. It's not good for the industry. It's economics, if breeders only ever sell to breeders it's a waste of time.

Ray - re. genetic diseases. First answer is I'm no expert, and I don't know what state Arabians are in, genetically, only that looking at the the show winners they all seem to come from the same stocks. It's just not biologically healthy. I'm all for sensible linebreeding and even, at a stretch and only if it's absolutely necessary, some inbreeding (although I will admit here as someone who went through a school system that hammered biology in to me that I really don't like it), but too many horses at the 'top' now are worryingly related. It;s a fact of genetics. You narrow the gene pool too much and it starts to deteriorate - look what's happening to Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. Arabians have a robust and wide gene pool to choose from, but I can see it narrowing. There are some very precious traits that linebreeding alone seems to produce, but for the long-term survival at the breed at some point someone is going to have to start questioning it. I don't think we're there yet, but do we really want to start firefighting after the effect?
Dieter
Hi all,

You guys have said it all and said it well. I couldn't add anything more of value.

I know quite a few people that ride their SE's . . . they don't show them, but they ride them out on the trail and in the mountains having the most fun and always on the horse that is as lively upon their return as when they left and always with that tail raised in the air. Most of these are the envy of the riding group and many people have been looking for an SE that is broke to ride. Not too many of those around these days or if they are broke to ride, they are not for sale (I've got 2 broke to ride, but neither for sale).

Artificial Insemination has contributed greatly to our shrinking genetic pool. IMO

As for the genetic question, I have no issue with using a horse that is a carrier because both of my mares are LFS/CA clear. My issue would be getting the mare to the stallion because "live cover" is the method I prefer to use when breeding my mares (if I could find a stallion available for live cover).

Mr Prospector
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 3 2012, 10:10 PM) *
Anyone??


It will go in two directions, I think, those who want to stay away from even the lines even if they are clear, and those who will selectively breed with and around the genetic problems. Which is why being open about the entire thing would be better for the breed than still pretending it doesn't exist, However, I do think it is an individual thing, and results should not be compulsorily be published on the database. You are going to have some horrific problems if you force people. However, I do think compulsory testing should be done until all results are known.

Eventually, with good selective breeding the problem should dissipate to almost extinction.

-----------------

I think what we tend to forget is that horses are "a thing of the past" they are no longer required for speed or distance except in a few small areas of the earth. They probably wont be maintained in large enough numbers into the future should they ever be needed, but that need is probably highly unlikely. Eventually they will probably become like zebras and deers, a quaint tourist attraction. Mostly because they are becoming so expensive to keep and less people are enthusiastic about learning to ride and have the free money to do so.

I was discussing the state of racing with an friend this morning. We used to spend Thursdays and Fridays studying the Saturday form for the races. Then we would off to the race track Saturday, watch the races, watch the horses and talk to other "oldies" doing much the same thing. Place our bets and win or loose.

Young people these days may go to the races if there is nothing else to do. They think you pick a winner by picking a number or a couple of numbers and drinking lots of booze. So with all the other competition that is more instant (poler machines etc.) racing and all the work that goes into that is going to die a slow death as well. And that is apart from the fact that TB breeding isn't as good as it used to be because it is mostly breeding to winners and not to bloodlines.

So one doesn't have to just overcome the Arabness problems, the horse riding expense problems there is also just the fact that it is all becoming too old fashioned to attract many new comers and young people to carry the torch.

Oh they may encourage it to some extent in the Middle East, but even there, if there is not more fairness with the elite it will crumble in on them eventually...
dkz
QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Mar 4 2012, 02:32 AM) *
And that is apart from the fact that TB breeding isn't as good as it used to be because it is mostly breeding to winners and not to bloodlines.


Sorry to hi-jack this thread for a moment but maybe we could start a new thread on how to properly read a pedigree. I have come across a number of people who didn't have a clue, but wanted to learn. Breeders knowing what their pedigrees actually contain as far as possibilities, would also help our breed.
Dieter
QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Mar 3 2012, 08:32 PM) *
It will go in two directions, I think, those who want to stay away from even the lines even if they are clear, and those who will selectively breed with and around the genetic problems.

Are you saying that for those people who choose to NOT breed to an LFS/CA/SCID carrier, they will avoid the bloodlines of a horse even if that horse was tested clear because it comes from a bloodline who is a carrier? blink.gif Do I understand that correctly?
Dieter
QUOTE (dkz @ Mar 4 2012, 07:16 AM) *
Sorry to hi-jack this thread for a moment but maybe we could start a new thread on how to properly read a pedigree. I have come across a number of people who didn't have a clue, but wanted to learn. Breeders knowing what their pedigrees actually contain as far as possibilities, would also help our breed.
That's a great idea to start a new thread on how to read a pedigree properly.
HLM
QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Mar 4 2012, 02:32 AM) *
It will go in two directions, I think, those who want to stay away from even the lines even if they are clear, and those who will selectively breed with and around the genetic problems. Which is why being open about the entire thing would be better for the breed than still pretending it doesn't exist, However, I do think it is an individual thing, and results should not be compulsorily be published on the database. You are going to have some horrific problems if you force people. However, I do think compulsory testing should be done until all results are known.

Eventually, with good selective breeding the problem should dissipate to almost extinction.

-----------------

I think what we tend to forget is that horses are "a thing of the past" they are no longer required for speed or distance except in a few small areas of the earth. They probably wont be maintained in large enough numbers into the future should they ever be needed, but that need is probably highly unlikely. Eventually they will probably become like zebras and deers, a quaint tourist attraction. Mostly because they are becoming so expensive to keep and less people are enthusiastic about learning to ride and have the free money to do so.

I was discussing the state of racing with an friend this morning. We used to spend Thursdays and Fridays studying the Saturday form for the races. Then we would off to the race track Saturday, watch the races, watch the horses and talk to other "oldies" doing much the same thing. Place our bets and win or loose.

Young people these days may go to the races if there is nothing else to do. They think you pick a winner by picking a number or a couple of numbers and drinking lots of booze. So with all the other competition that is more instant (poler machines etc.) racing and all the work that goes into that is going to die a slow death as well. And that is apart from the fact that TB breeding isn't as good as it used to be because it is mostly breeding to winners and not to bloodlines.

So one doesn't have to just overcome the Arabness problems, the horse riding expense problems there is also just the fact that it is all becoming too old fashioned to attract many new comers and young people to carry the torch.

Oh they may encourage it to some extent in the Middle East, but even there, if there is not more fairness with the elite it will crumble in on them eventually...



Actually ALL SE LINES CARRY CA and LFS, BUT not SCID. I dont think we can ever outbreed it (thought differently before I knew more on the subject) , as this is there for many centuries and caried forward. I would breed from a CA or LFS carrier, if the mare is clear on it, and I need the bloodline of the stallion. Obviously this was done for centuries, otherwise it would not exist todate. I think it started with some of the BLUNT /Crabbet horses, and of course
had to go back much further than that. I am here referring to SEs.

I dont think the Equine sports will ever die out, too many people born who love the "Horse" and cant be without it,and find a way to own or rent one. I mentioned earlier Bill's nice, who cant be kept away from the the horses. there also will always be grandparents affording the grand children their loe affair with horses.

hANSI

tkr9
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 03:36 PM) *
I dont think the Equine sports will ever die out, too many people born who love the "Horse" and cant be without it,and find a way to own or rent one.

hANSI


biggrin.gif

Totally agree! smile.gif

I think I heard someone quote once that a love of horses is a virus for which there is no cure. Horses lost their 'useful' place in society more than 70 years ago (in the west, anyway), and we still ride and obsess about them. smile.gif

Not sure about finding a way to own or rent one, I've been trying since I first sat on a horse (when I was 6). I'm 30 now and still haven't got one sad.gif

I compensate - being obsessed with Arabians helps smile.gif I go to shows and open days and read vociferously, and I find genetics and bloodlines fascinating. Ultimately, and I know this sounds really stupid, but I think it's an ancient connection, I can't explain it, but horses mean something to mankind, something that goes beyond mere hobbyism.
HLM
QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 4 2012, 04:23 PM) *
That's a great idea to start a new thread on how to read a pedigree properly.



yes, why dont you start it Liz, and I support it, as many others will,.
You have many experiences to share.

Hansi
Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 03:36 PM) *
Actually ALL SE LINES CARRY CA and LFS, BUT not SCID.

hANSI




ALL SE lines carry CA and LF? I don't think so. Unless a study has been done that I'm not aware of -- my understanding is that both of these diseases occur with the SE population, but not in ALL lines. If sire and dam are both clear (of either disease), then they can't be carriers and therefore cannot transmit to their produce. Only carriers can transmit, unless a spontaneous mutation should occur -- or am I mistaken?
Liz Salmon
I am actually finding more breeders and owners are testing for the genetic conditions and being honest about it.

Yes, reading pedigrees is something else than needs to be taught. I am horrified sometimes at some trainers ignorance on pedigrees. My latest client from Saudi who had been to Scottsdale said that no one showed him where the various bloodlines were from i.e Polish, Russian, Egyptian etc—let alone tail female lines !! nor did they talk about conformation, type or movement. He spent several hours with me yesterday looking at pedigrees, photos and videos and I sent him home with a huge folder of conformational and type articles, diagrams and photos on the subject. I have collected material over the years from seminars and some I have written myself.
BaileyArabians

Where is the scientific study to back this up? A simple link will do.

QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 09:36 AM) *
Actually ALL SE LINES CARRY CA and LFS, BUT not SCID.

hANSI

HLM
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Mar 4 2012, 05:22 PM) *
I am actually finding more breeders and owners are testing for the genetic conditions and being honest about it.

Yes, reading pedigrees is something else than needs to be taught. I am horrified sometimes at some trainers ignorance on pedigrees. My latest client from Saudi who had been to Scottsdale said that no one showed him where the various bloodlines were from i.e Polish, Russian, Egyptian etc—let alone tail female lines !! nor did they talk about conformation, type or movement. He spent several hours with me yesterday looking at pedigrees, photos and videos and I sent him home with a huge folder of conformational and type articles, diagrams and photos on the subject. I have collected material over the years from seminars and some I have written myself.



Hi Liz (Salmon)

I think this is wonderful what you did. Many a horse is overlooked because some owners/trainers have no clue of what they really have. I think we have more people able to give information in our industry than in some others.
Education is so important and may be some day seminars are given, explaining what certain bloodlines consistently produce (performance). Of course little testing is done, sometimes for 3-4 generations and then difficult to to explain, other that they carry certain genetic values.

I get questiosn about Arabians, other than SEs, and am able to answer them.

take care
hansi
HLM
QUOTE (BaileyArabians @ Mar 4 2012, 06:31 PM) *
Where is the scientific study to back this up? A simple link will do.



Hi Cathy (Bailey Arabians)

May I refer you to Lisa Campiglio, Margaret Illing and Lab departments who/which have far more data than I do.

The Australian Imports of Blunt/Crabbet horses end of 1800dreds had the deceases. It mostly led into Syria, and Syrian horses by enlarge are in the SEs. These lines can also be found in our SEs including Inshass lines.
These Blunt/Crabett lines of course also went to the RAS through the Blunt imports.

I am not an authority on the subject, and my information comes from those who are. While some lines might have been clear at the start, mated with carriers made the difference.

Hansi

.
BaileyArabians
Hi Hansi,

I will contact either or both and ask them to verify that they advised you that ALL SE lines carry CA and LFS and report back my results here.
Also any information from the scientific study from which this information was the result.

Thanks.

QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 11:48 AM) *
Hi Cathy (Bailey Arabians)

May I refer you to Lisa Campiglio, Margaret Illing and Lab departments who/which have far more data than I do.

The Australian Imports of Blunt/Crabbet horses end of 1800dreds had the deceases. It mostly led into Syria, and Syrian horses by enlarge are in the SEs. These lines can also be found in our SEs including Inshass lines.
These Blunt/Crabett lines of course also went to the RAS through the Blunt imports.

I am not an authority on the subject, and my information comes from those who are. While some lines might have been clear at the start, mated with carriers made the difference.

Hansi

.

BaileyArabians
I just wanted to quote this post as well in it's entirety so it'll be easier for them to find, should they look.

QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 09:36 AM) *
Actually ALL SE LINES CARRY CA and LFS, BUT not SCID. I dont think we can ever outbreed it (thought differently before I knew more on the subject) , as this is there for many centuries and caried forward. I would breed from a CA or LFS carrier, if the mare is clear on it, and I need the bloodline of the stallion. Obviously this was done for centuries, otherwise it would not exist todate. I think it started with some of the BLUNT /Crabbet horses, and of course
had to go back much further than that. I am here referring to SEs.

I dont think the Equine sports will ever die out, too many people born who love the "Horse" and cant be without it,and find a way to own or rent one. I mentioned earlier Bill's nice, who cant be kept away from the the horses. there also will always be grandparents affording the grand children their loe affair with horses.

hANSI

HLM
QUOTE (BaileyArabians @ Mar 4 2012, 06:03 PM) *
Hi Hansi,

I will contact either or both and ask them to verify that they advised you that ALL SE lines carry CA and LFS and report back my results here.
Also any information from the scientific study from which this information was the result.

Thanks.



Dear Cathy

where did I state that the above two parties advised me? I asked you to contact them for further details.
All I offered is to contact them to get explanations.

Based on data I have, I feel that all lines carry one or the other decease or both. If there are liines which are totally clear up to date, I need to learn about them
dont you think we should start a new topic on this?

Take care
Hansi
Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 07:22 PM) *
Dear Cathy

where did I state that the above two parties advised me? I asked you to contact them for further details.
All I offered is to contact them to get explanations.

Based on data I have, I feel that all lines carry one or the other decease or both. If there are liines which are totally clear up to date, I need to learn about them
dont you think we should start a new topic on this?

Take care
Hansi


Quote Hansi:

"I am not an authority on the subject, and my information comes from those who are. While some lines might have been clear at the start, mated with carriers made the difference."


If the two parties who you cited as contatcts are not the authorities from which your information was obtained, who are the source authorities? '

This is an important issue and your statement is potentially incindiary, so care must be taken. It is either true or false that all SE lines carry CA and LFS -- and if true, this would have to be supported by scientific proof. It is not something that can be "felt". If it is not true, we would not want newcomers, or even SE enthusiasts, from all over the world to believe that all SE Arabians carry these genetic diseases.
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