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dkz
I thought it would be nice to learn more about what our horses' pedigrees tell us. There is so much to know about the horses and their placements in them, even though we have a relatively small gene pool it can still be overwhelming. With all the knowledgeable breeders we have on this forum I'm hoping we will all learn something new.
HLM
QUOTE (dkz @ Mar 5 2012, 11:44 PM) *
I thought it would be nice to learn more about what our horses' pedigrees tell us. There is so much to know about the horses and their placements in them, even though we have a relatively small gene pool it can still be overwhelming. With all the knowledgeable breeders we have on this forum I'm hoping we will all learn something new.



O yes dear dkz, a pedigree tells me everything, if the horse is Asil or not, comes from an athletic line,
had/has a knowledgable breeder, or bred from "I scratch your back and you scratch mine", meaning politcs were involved. If it is a knowledgable breeder you can actually figure out what such was thinking when breeding the horse.


One basically has to go through ONE HORSES'S pedigree to understand and learn.
So, where do we start?

Take care
hansi
Kimberli
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 5 2012, 10:21 PM) *
O yes dear dkz, a pedigree tells me everything, if the horse is Asil or not, comes from an athletic line,
had/has a knowledgable breeder, or bred from "I scratch your back and you scratch mine", meaning politcs were involved. If it is a knowledgable breeder you can actually figure out what such was thinking when breeding the horse.


One basically has to go through ONE HORSES'S pedigree to understand and learn.
So, where do we start?

Take care
hansi


Hansi, I love this...Are you willing to start with one of your imported horses and "Read" the pedigree for us?
Nadj al Nur
How about starting with Khofo since everybody more or less knows him.
C
HLM
QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 6 2012, 12:10 AM) *
Hansi, I love this...Are you willing to start with one of your imported horses and "Read" the pedigree for us?



You very kind Kimberly, but how about starting with "Rabanna" one of my pet projects.

All of you, please start with this, and I jump in as soon as I can.

I start you off:
Rabanna (1947) (Rasik x Banna) a Saqlawi Jidraniya, bred by D F Gallaher, Calistoga,cA, USA
And owned by Richard Pritzlaff, Sapello, NM, USA
Remember I was fighting for her to recognized as an SE and failed.

Take care
Hansi


Kimberli
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 5 2012, 11:47 PM) *
You very kind Kimberly, but how about starting with "Rabanna" one of my pet projects.

All of you, please start with this, and I jump in as soon as I can.

I start you off:
Rabanna (1947) (Rasik x Banna) a Saqlawi Jidraniya, bred by D F Gallaher, Calistoga,cA, USA
And owned by Richard Pritzlaff, Sapello, NM, USA
Remember I was fighting for her to recognized as an SE and failed.

Take care
Hansi


I think Rabanna would be a good one to start with. I was trying to think of one that would not offend anyone... I know sometimes that is hard!
dgfour
There's an old story that says that the bedouin would not look at the horse until they had an opportunity to examine the pedigree and if the pedigree was not satisfactory there was no interest in even looking at the horse
2mntn
QUOTE (dgfour @ Mar 5 2012, 05:47 PM) *
There's an old story that says that the bedouin would not look at the horse until they had an opportunity to examine the pedigree and if the pedigree was not satisfactory there was no interest in even looking at the horse


I'm not sure how that would have worked, since the Bedu did not read or write. Of course, they would have been given a verbal background of a given horse and been able to make a decision based upon that.

Foir the topic in general, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree". A pedigree is just a long list of names which is meaningless without some knowledge of the horses shown in the pedigree. If someone has that knowledge, then they need to see the horse represented by the pedigree in order to make some guesses as to which ancestors might be coming forward and expressing themselves in the various "pieces-parts" of the individual. So, for the direct offspring of desert-breds, for instance, we don't know a darn thing about the pedigree, so we just have to see how the horse produces and develop a knowledge of the pedigree from there.
HLM
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 6 2012, 03:18 AM) *
I'm not sure how that would have worked, since the Bedu did not read or write. Of course, they would have been given a verbal background of a given horse and been able to make a decision based upon that.

Foir the topic in general, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree". A pedigree is just a long list of names which is meaningless without some knowledge of the horses shown in the pedigree. If someone has that knowledge, then they need to see the horse represented by the pedigree in order to make some guesses as to which ancestors might be coming forward and expressing themselves in the various "pieces-parts" of the individual. So, for the direct offspring of desert-breds, for instance, we don't know a darn thing about the pedigree, so we just have to see how the horse produces and develop a knowledge of the pedigree from there.



Dear Ray

I think what is meant to tell what any of us know of horses in a given pedigree. Looking at a horse and knowing some of the important ancestors is a great help I think. How often have we read " the legendary this or that" or emphazing a particular horse, when there is no evidence of such endearment. But you are right, the horse we are looking at, has to show some of the genetic values. And then it becomes trial and error.

As you know various horses are "Fad horses" and people get on the bandwaggon hoping for the best.
This is a great problem I feel. some wont buy a top horse because they dont like the owner, or some buy a horse because they like the owner. I dont think this is the way to go about it.

Take care
Hansi

dkz
from Ray's post - For the topic in general, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree".

Oh Ray, I do believe there really is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree". First, as far as not being able to see the ancestors that are too far back, you have to partially go by accounts of people you trust that have seen them, take what they say and compare to what you already know. As you said it involves looking at offspring, and then comparing as many of those as possible. I really do appreciate a well done line bred pedigree because it narrows down the variations I can expect without the great possibility of locking in traits I don't want as would many times be the case of a highly in bred pedigree. I do like to evaluate highly inbred pedigrees though because it gives me a first hand visual of what traits are available from certain horses in their pedigrees. Also position in the pedigree is a plus or minus for certain horses because of certain attributes that seem to come down from them due to where they appear. I was taught to read pedigrees from someone, now sadly gone, (not Arabians) whom I wish I could have learned so much more. So yes I do believe their is a right way to read or evaluate a pedigree and getting first hand knowledge from people who were there to actually see the horses is a good start. I will not even look at a horse if I don't like the pedigree because if I don't see what I want in the pedigree in all probability it can't produce offspring I would be happy with. The pedigree tells me the ingredients I have to work with and what I should need to bring it out (hopefully). I don't need a lot of mediocre horses so the best place to start is with a good horse that looks like it's pedigree (for that we need to know how to read it). I am only going to make a tiny difference in the gene pool with my breeding program. I want my decisions to be as good as possible.








2mntn
QUOTE (dkz @ Mar 6 2012, 08:46 AM) *
from Ray's post - For the topic in general, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree".

Oh Ray, I do believe there really is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree". First, as far as not being able to see the ancestors that are too far back, you have to partially go by accounts of people you trust that have seen them, take what they say and compare to what you already know. As you said it involves looking at offspring, and then comparing as many of those as possible. I really do appreciate a well done line bred pedigree because it narrows down the variations I can expect without the great possibility of locking in traits I don't want as would many times be the case of a highly in bred pedigree. I do like to evaluate highly inbred pedigrees though because it gives me a first hand visual of what traits are available from certain horses in their pedigrees. Also position in the pedigree is a plus or minus for certain horses because of certain attributes that seem to come down from them due to where they appear. I was taught to read pedigrees from someone, now sadly gone, (not Arabians) whom I wish I could have learned so much more. So yes I do believe their is a right way to read or evaluate a pedigree and getting first hand knowledge from people who were there to actually see the horses is a good start. I will not even look at a horse if I don't like the pedigree because if I don't see what I want in the pedigree in all probability it can't produce offspring I would be happy with. The pedigree tells me the ingredients I have to work with and what I should need to bring it out (hopefully). I don't need a lot of mediocre horses so the best place to start is with a good horse that looks like it's pedigree (for that we need to know how to read it). I am only going to make a tiny difference in the gene pool with my breeding program. I want my decisions to be as good as possible.


Well, let's take a look at a famous example of some horses with the same pedigree. The sons of Bint Magidaa by Shaikh Al Badi. Ruminaja Ali, Ruminaja Bahjat, Ruminaja Fayez and Alidaar. Can we say we "knew" what would happen by looking at the pedigree and looking at the four sons? Then considering how they produced, are there some consistencies that seem to apply across the board for this pedigree and are passed along for several generations, or ??
HLM
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 6 2012, 05:17 PM) *
Well, let's take a look at a famous example of some horses with the same pedigree. The sons of Bint Magidaa by Shaikh Al Badi. Ruminaja Ali, Ruminaja Bahjat, Ruminaja Fayez and Alidaar. Can we say we "knew" what would happen by looking at the pedigree and looking at the four sons? Then considering how they produced, are there some consistencies that seem to apply across the board for this pedigree and are passed along for several generations, or ??



Dear Ray
I think so. Alaa El Din (goal) (1956) was a race winner- raced 1/6(1-1-1)3. So was his sire raced
2/20(4-6-1), so was his sire Mansour.
Female line: Antar was a race champion etc.

In particular Alidaar was very athletic, and basically the entire Magidaa line needs to be considered as being athletic and beautiful. the unfortunate part is that numerous offspring/offspring were/are not under saddle and cant prove what they can do. So here we are guessing but cn strongly consider it..

We can say this or more about various ancestors in the pedigree of many SEs here and abroad.
I for one,always bred for the athletic horse, a horse with stamina, speed,courage and of course attitude/disposition
and looking like an arab horse.If I would not have done/doing it, I would have to consider myself a failure as a breeder of Equine.


take care
Hansi
Kimberli
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 6 2012, 06:35 PM) *
Dear Ray
I think so. Alaa El Din (goal) (1956) was a race winner- raced 1/6(1-1-1)3. So was his sire raced
2/20(4-6-1), so was his sire Mansour.
Female line: Antar was a race champion etc.

In particular Alidaar was very athletic, and basically the entire Magidaa line needs to be considered as being athletic and beautiful. the unfortunate part is that numerous offspring/offspring were/are not under saddle and cant prove what they can do. So here we are guessing but cn strongly consider it..

We can say this or more about various ancestors in the pedigree of many SEs here and abroad.
I for one,always bred for the athletic horse, a horse with stamina, speed,courage and of course attitude/disposition
and looking like an arab horse.If I would not have done/doing it, I would have to consider myself a failure as a breeder of Equine.


take care
Hansi


Hansi, that is not reading a pedigree... You can do better than that. Racing record are but one thing. come on, give it to us!
diane
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 7 2012, 03:35 AM) *
Dear Ray
I think so. Alaa El Din (goal) (1956) was a race winner- raced 1/6(1-1-1)3. So was his sire raced
2/20(4-6-1), so was his sire Mansour.
Female line: Antar was a race champion etc.

In particular Alidaar was very athletic, and basically the entire Magidaa line needs to be considered as being athletic and beautiful. the unfortunate part is that numerous offspring/offspring were/are not under saddle and cant prove what they can do. So here we are guessing but cn strongly consider it..

We can say this or more about various ancestors in the pedigree of many SEs here and abroad.
I for one,always bred for the athletic horse, a horse with stamina, speed,courage and of course attitude/disposition
and looking like an arab horse.If I would not have done/doing it, I would have to consider myself a failure as a breeder of Equine.

take care
Hansi

It's quite interesting that when discussing asils with the concept that they are Bedouin desertbred horses or from same, that there is the tendency to example the achievements of those in a pedigree in terms of the stallions and their achievements, even when discussing the "female line"!

For me, racing isn't the be all and end all of performance achievement, though it is a performance attribute. An ability of the asil, in a ghazu/raid would have been to turn sharply, along with the ability to flee or chase as fast as they could. Where does straight racing show the ability to turn sharply? I feel there is so much more to a performance Arabian than simply being fast in races.

As has been mentioned, pedigrees have the potential to hold a lot of information. To utilise that information would be to know each of the individuals in that pedigree (their strengths and weaknesses / whether they are dominant or not). What Lies Beneath: a look at the importance of a pedigree by Betty Finke.

More interestingly, the pedigree is rarely reviewed in purely Bedouin terms - from the tail female (via their strain name) through to the present day individual, only acknowledging that the individual sires per generation are asil.

HLM
QUOTE (diane @ Mar 7 2012, 02:26 PM) *
It's quite interesting that when discussing asils with the concept that they are Bedouin desertbred horses or from same, that there is the tendency to example the achievements of those in a pedigree in terms of the stallions and their achievements, even when discussing the "female line"!

For me, racing isn't the be all and end all of performance achievement, though it is a performance attribute. An ability of the asil, in a ghazu/raid would have been to turn sharply, along with the ability to flee or chase as fast as they could. Where does straight racing show the ability to turn sharply? I feel there is so much more to a performance Arabian than simply being fast in races.

As has been mentioned, pedigrees have the potential to hold a lot of information. To utilise that information would be to know each of the individuals in that pedigree (their strengths and weaknesses / whether they are dominant or not). What Lies Beneath: a look at the importance of a pedigree by Betty Finke.

More interestingly, the pedigree is rarely reviewed in purely Bedouin terms - from the tail female (via their strain name) through to the present day individual, only acknowledging that the individual sires per generation are asil.



Diane, I had hoped that you understood me better. When I speak of racing I also speak of endurance, and there is where the talents come in you mention.

What you neglected to state is how you determine, or anybody, what attributes breeders brought along by chosing mating. When I see breeders in a pedigree who I know bought the horse for investment, does not know from which end it eats, and breed as to what is good on the dinner table that day.ISometimes you have various such people the breeders. Right there and then I AWAKE, AND UNLESS I saw the horse in the flesh, have to consider ignorance and/or greed. When I see known knowledgeable breeders in it, I m trying to figure out how they concluded to breed this way and in most all cases understand. Evidence further is when such breeding is repeated, obviously the breeder being very satisfied with the results..
this is ardent research and only gives a guideline. The clue comes when we such such horse in the flesh and note what it has done.

If I were that wrong in my evaluating a pedigree, hundreds of SEs would not stand on baby hoofs, have no rearend of power, tiple toe through the tulips due to short strides, etc.etc. run out of breath because of lack of girth, and on and on.No horse is perfect, but what was imported in the past from Babson to 1972 or so, were excellent individuals most of which I know in the flesh as some of their ancestors,. what did not muster was treated accordingly.

Just my opinion through my experiences.
Hansi
karin
My opinion is that if the ancesters of a certain horse in a pedigree was used in racing and had some nice results even, it is a PLUS.

Or other equestrian sports which at that moment they were not being used for a lot as we all know.

Racing was in that time, in several countries a must to test the performance of the horses used for breeding. Poland, Russia.

And I am glad for that since now, mostly, what do we see..they never wear a saddle in their lives on their backs. And is that wise for the arabian breed?
Off topic a bit but.
Teymur B
I'm interested in the Egyptian race lines very much.

Hansi's Horse's was race horse's too...if i saw on the Website...
Jmarcan
Through sporthorse colleagues, I have become a fan of the website sporthorse-data.com. The website provides conformation photos where available, the pedigree and the sport record of each mare and stallion in the database (as noted not a lot of performance info for our Arabs). The pedigree analysis calculates inbreeding coefficients over 6 generations (which sometimes are scary with our Egyptians) and lets one easily determine what inbred lines come forward, how the coat colours flow through the pedigree etc. It doesn't replace human knowledge, but it is a nice tool when the information is accurate and interpreted properly. And there is a test-mating function which is addictive....
diane
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 8 2012, 06:25 AM) *
Diane, I had hoped that you understood me better. When I speak of racing I also speak of endurance, and there is where the talents come in you mention.

What you neglected to state is how you determine, or anybody, what attributes breeders brought along by chosing mating. When I see breeders in a pedigree who I know bought the horse for investment, does not know from which end it eats, and breed as to what is good on the dinner table that day.ISometimes you have various such people the breeders. Right there and then I AWAKE, AND UNLESS I saw the horse in the flesh, have to consider ignorance and/or greed. When I see known knowledgeable breeders in it, I m trying to figure out how they concluded to breed this way and in most all cases understand. Evidence further is when such breeding is repeated, obviously the breeder being very satisfied with the results..
this is ardent research and only gives a guideline. The clue comes when we such such horse in the flesh and note what it has done.

If I were that wrong in my evaluating a pedigree, hundreds of SEs would not stand on baby hoofs, have no rearend of power, tiple toe through the tulips due to short strides, etc.etc. run out of breath because of lack of girth, and on and on.No horse is perfect, but what was imported in the past from Babson to 1972 or so, were excellent individuals most of which I know in the flesh as some of their ancestors,. what did not muster was treated accordingly.

Just my opinion through my experiences.
Hansi

huh.gif my crystal ball wasn't anywhere to be found rolleyes.gif

My preference is to review a horse rather than the modern western people behind it. Giving the horse the benefit of the doubt - I love surprises of the good kind smile.gif
HLM
QUOTE (diane @ Mar 8 2012, 12:09 PM) *
huh.gif my crystal ball wasn't anywhere to be found rolleyes.gif

My preference is to review a horse rather than the modern western people behind it. Giving the horse the benefit of the doubt - I love surprises of the good kind smile.gif



Hi Diane

what have the "Western People Behind it" as you single them out to do with acedemics/reseach? Was Lady A. Blunt not also considered a "Westerner" or do you feel she is in the categorie of "Ancient"?

However, if you mean "Westerners" of the past few decades , it is a different story. Of course any intelligent person gives anything ,even the contraversial" a benfit of a doubt. A horse evaluated by an expert is one thing, by a wishful thinking person another. I do as you state, look at the horse and then try to find where detrimental faults might come from. I then refer you to my opinion how,who and by what. I think we are on the same wave length Diane.


Hansi


dkz
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 6 2012, 05:17 PM) *
Well, let's take a look at a famous example of some horses with the same pedigree. The sons of Bint Magidaa by Shaikh Al Badi. Ruminaja Ali, Ruminaja Bahjat, Ruminaja Fayez and Alidaar. Can we say we "knew" what would happen by looking at the pedigree and looking at the four sons? Then considering how they produced, are there some consistencies that seem to apply across the board for this pedigree and are passed along for several generations, or ??




I am not as qualified to comment on this line as some here. Keep in mind I didn't see any of the brothers in person, and pictures and videos can be a bad avenue in which to judge. The brothers were beautiful and appeared to have a lot of presence, (I think this is predictable and seemed to fairly consistently pass on) but these were horses that I think had to be bred very carefully. A breeder could get it all in one package if bred right, type, charisma (without going overboard) structure and athleticism. But, it is my opinion, when breeding this line, if not careful you could run into several problems. I think they were sometimes bred without a lot of thought... and that, with any line can run into trouble.
classicarabs
There are different opinions on exactly how to read/interpret a pedigree and for every reply you'll probably get a slightly different answer or opinion. Some feel that a pedigree is simply names on a paper, others look at show records, still others look at race records, or show records under saddle vs. just halter competitions, etc.

But what does it all truly mean? The answer in my opinion is that it means something different to any given breeder, but those breeders with common goals tend to have a common philosophy and a common process when evaluating or "reading" a pedigree. Endurance capabilities work well as a tool in pedigree evaluation for someone trying to maintain asil traits because horses that are capable of performing these demanding performance disciplines tend to be conformed in such a way as to preserve those inherent traits, such as lung capacity, recovery rates, etc. So that is just one aspect of reading a pedigree. There is a gamble anytime we breed, but learning about a pedigree makes it more of an educated guess than a blind shot in the dark.

No matter what we find written or recorded we still must also evalute the horses and see them in the flesh whenever possible, without artifice to evalute and make informed breeding decisions. Before written records the horses spoke for themselves, and their reputations preceded them, and we still need to keep this in mind, but it's also nice to have these written records.

Balance, harmony, noble tail carriage and smooth, elastic freedom of movement are all important factors for me. Being under saddle is important to me, even if the horse is used in western, working western or trail... because they are proving their trainability, their willingness to do what we ask of them and to partner with us. That's important to me. If a sire line goes back multiple generations and they were all under saddle vs. a sire line that none or few were ever under saddle, which do you think is more likely to be trainable and suitable under saddle for my purposes? I would have to breed to the sire line that is well known for this. That goes for any traits we are trying to preserve and carry forward. My humble opinion. smile.gif
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