Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Do You Know Your Competition?
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - Übersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
Pages: 1, 2
HLM
Dear all

I think we have well over one million arabian horses recorded/registered and/or documented.
Only a small percentage , may be five percent are Asil/SEs etc.

Has anyone of you followed why the French horses are in such demand, bring such high prices and do a lot of winning?

Does anyone know which bloodlines in the pedigrees of these horses are pronouced and going back to what?
I do.

To overlook formidable competion is like saying "there is only the Volkswagen and no other make, although they all are "Cars".

Studying what other countries do, if we want to market the SEs adequately is an immense help. Producing horses which can readily compeat with the French or others, is the answer.

Let us hear your opinions and commens please.

Hansi
orient arabians
Hey Hansi,
Off which sort of competition are you talking ? racing ? endurance ? show ?
some of my SE are out in endurance, but I don't know any SE in racing, and not many in show..

Michčle
HLM
QUOTE (orient arabians @ Mar 27 2012, 10:56 AM) *
Hey Hansi,
Off which sort of competition are you talking ? racing ? endurance ? show ?
some of my SE are out in endurance, but I don't know any SE in racing, and not many in show..

Michčle



Dear Michele

At least someone replied, and I thank you.

Yes, racing, flat and endurance. We here in the USA have a lot of flat races, even managed to race at the
track of the Kentucky Derby last year, and do it again this year.Dellaware,USA is racing for decades Arabian horses, so is California,Michigan, Florida, Texas etc.etc. Same goes for Endurance. I raced ours since 1978, both flat and endurance..
,

However, what I like to find out what our people know, are aware of, what is doing so well and bring such high prices- the french Arabians-. I wondered if our people know why this is and what is so outstanding in these'
horses' bloodlines. I know what it is and am Guided. Just thought it might be another educational topic.

Thanks for your reply and I hope it wont be the only one.

Take care
hansi
Dieter
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 27 2012, 08:16 AM) *
Dear Michele

At least someone replied, and I thank you.

Yes, racing, flat and endurance. We here in the USA have a lot of flat races, even managed to race at the
track of the Kentucky Derby last year, and do it again this year.Dellaware,USA is racing for decades Arabian horses, so is California,Michigan, Florida, Texas etc.etc. Same goes for Endurance. I raced ours since 1978, both flat and endurance..
,

However, what I like to find out what our people know, are aware of, what is doing so well and bring such high prices- the french Arabians-. I wondered if our people know why this is and what is so outstanding in these'
horses' bloodlines. I know what it is and am Guided. Just thought it might be another educational topic.

Thanks for your reply and I hope it wont be the only one.

Take care
hansi

Hi Hansi,

I have noticed the French Arabians are built for speed and they are winning flat races, therefore, race purses make them more valuable (earnings potential). I can't help but notice many of them do not have the kind of "type" that is popular these days, or the labels that would make them desirable to any specific preservation group. I am not familiar enough with their bloodlines to know specifically why they are like they are, but will guess it could be related to percentage of Muniqi blood - don't know and may be entirely wrong on that.

Have a great day.

Liz
orient arabians
I must say that french racing arabians have discutable bloodlines, no purist would like to use them.. we agree that some anglo-arabian blood had been mixte even if no stud-book would say so..
Is this looking like an arabian ?

Click to view attachment

Michčle
barbara.gregory
For many years I helped at UK Arab races and there were a few lovely Arabs that won, even some SEs. However, as the French horses took over we saw less and less horses that looked like Arabs. When I was judging best turned out I actually had to look at my racecard to see if it was a race for purebreds or Anglos; it was almost like we were reinventing the thoroughbred. Some of the purebreds (in fact quite a lot) even had pulled manes. Is that really the way we want to go? To me the Arab should be unique, not a second rate thoroughbred. They are the most beautful of all the breeds, why spoil that? They should not only be beautiful but kind, intelligent, versatile and hardy. In breeding just for speed with no regards for type (I leave aside the contentious issue of purity) we are losing all the other aspects of the Arabian so why bother; just get a thoroughbred as they are faster and better looking.

Sorry, just my thoughts. I am sure I will be shot down in flames but I want my Arabs to be all the things that attracted me to the breed in the first place; spirited but tractable and kind; beautiful but well conformed and rideable; in fact, an all round athelete who is also stunningly beautiful.

Barbara
gbfahne.gif ::
HLM
QUOTE (orient arabians @ Mar 27 2012, 04:21 PM) *
I must say that french racing arabians have discutable bloodlines, no purist would like to use them.. we agree that some anglo-arabian blood had been mixte even if no stud-book would say so..
Is this looking like an arabian ?

Click to view attachment

Michčle



dear Michelle

I have seen some purebred arabs looking similar.
Manganate has an excellent pedigree in my opinion. From about 5th generation female tail line its all "Asil"

Male line, from the 4th. It appears that Latif OA (1903) a Hamdani Simri Asil stallion imported by France from Egytpt in 1909 has a lot to say.He produced "Denauste (1921) out of a Mukladieh mare Djaima (1913)
Denauste Produced Baroud II (1927) a good race winner (1/9(2-4-3-) and he produced Saint Laurent (1948)
race champion (1/8/(4-3-1) out of Madou (1939) a Mu'niqi Silfa mare ,a race champion (1/6(3-2-1).

Hundreds of predigeees carry Latif/Denauste/Burkeguy etc. and should be respected, I do.

We might not like some, but be looking at their rearends every time they are infront. they should never be underestimated. But also the SEs have top racing lines and could be formidable competitors if given a chance.
I have two studs here right now which might have a word or two to say.

Here are some more race winenrs in his pedigree:
Mandragone (`1955) (his dam) 1/9/(2-4-3), her sire Dragon (1940) (1/6/(5-1-0) and her dam
Magnesie (1949) (1/9(3-3-1)

and Manganate (1972) himself : 1/4/(3-o-o)

therefore I have to think that genetically it came through well. Too many top performers and producer in it I feel.
And I dont thnk an "Anglo" can compete with the above success that well, but there are exceptions to any rule, e.h.

Take care
Hansi

.
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (barbara.gregory @ Mar 27 2012, 07:54 AM) *
For many years I helped at UK Arab races and there were a few lovely Arabs that won, even some SEs. However, as the French horses took over we saw less and less horses that looked like Arabs. When I was judging best turned out I actually had to look at my racecard to see if it was a race for purebreds or Anglos; it was almost like we were reinventing the thoroughbred. Some of the purebreds (in fact quite a lot) even had pulled manes. Is that really the way we want to go? To me the Arab should be unique, not a second rate thoroughbred. They are the most beautful of all the breeds, why spoil that? They should not only be beautiful but kind, intelligent, versatile and hardy. In breeding just for speed with no regards for type (I leave aside the contentious issue of purity) we are losing all the other aspects of the Arabian so why bother; just get a thoroughbred as they are faster and better looking.

Sorry, just my thoughts. I am sure I will be shot down in flames but I want my Arabs to be all the things that attracted me to the breed in the first place; spirited but tractable and kind; beautiful but well conformed and rideable; in fact, an all round athelete who is also stunningly beautiful.

Barbara
gbfahne.gif ::

No flames here,Barbara. Well said !!
C
HLM
QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 27 2012, 04:05 PM) *
Hi Hansi,

I have noticed the French Arabians are built for speed and they are winning flat races, therefore, race purses which makes them more valuable (earnings potential). I can't help but notice many of them do not have the kind of "type" that is popular these days, or the labels that would make them desirable to any specific preservation group. I am not familiar enough with their bloodlines to know specifically why they are like they are, but will guess it could be related to percentage of Muniqi blood - don't know and may be entirely wrong on that.

Have a great day.

Liz



Dear Liz

well you are right, as usual, with the Muniqi blood. Madou (1939), dam of the great Saint Laurent (1948) indeed is a Muniqi Silfa mare going to the foundation mare "Arca" (c.1875) import by France in 1880 from the El Ghannam Tribe.
I think that tribe was in persia (Turkey may be)? I am not sure. She was a "desertbred". Therefore I guess Manganate is half a Mu'Niqi, right?

Take care
hansi



Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (barbara.gregory @ Mar 27 2012, 04:54 PM) *
For many years I helped at UK Arab races and there were a few lovely Arabs that won, even some SEs. However, as the French horses took over we saw less and less horses that looked like Arabs. When I was judging best turned out I actually had to look at my racecard to see if it was a race for purebreds or Anglos; it was almost like we were reinventing the thoroughbred. Some of the purebreds (in fact quite a lot) even had pulled manes. Is that really the way we want to go? To me the Arab should be unique, not a second rate thoroughbred. They are the most beautful of all the breeds, why spoil that? They should not only be beautiful but kind, intelligent, versatile and hardy. In breeding just for speed with no regards for type (I leave aside the contentious issue of purity) we are losing all the other aspects of the Arabian so why bother; just get a thoroughbred as they are faster and better looking.

Sorry, just my thoughts. I am sure I will be shot down in flames but I want my Arabs to be all the things that attracted me to the breed in the first place; spirited but tractable and kind; beautiful but well conformed and rideable; in fact, an all round athelete who is also stunningly beautiful.

Barbara
gbfahne.gif ::


I agree on all points. I appreciate a beautiful horse and an exceptional athlete of any breed -- some are amazing. However, what I chose to own and breed are Arabans and they ARE different from other breeds in numerous ways.I believe that those differences should be treasured and maintained regardless of what sport, discipline or job the Arabian is involved in. The Arabian was not meant to be as fast as a Thoroughbred, or as high stepping as a Saddlebred -- and I don't enjoy seeing them look or behave like either of those breeds. I want them to look and behave like Arabians.
HLM
QUOTE (barbara.gregory @ Mar 27 2012, 03:54 PM) *
For many years I helped at UK Arab races and there were a few lovely Arabs that won, even some SEs. However, as the French horses took over we saw less and less horses that looked like Arabs. When I was judging best turned out I actually had to look at my racecard to see if it was a race for purebreds or Anglos; it was almost like we were reinventing the thoroughbred. Some of the purebreds (in fact quite a lot) even had pulled manes. Is that really the way we want to go? To me the Arab should be unique, not a second rate thoroughbred. They are the most beautful of all the breeds, why spoil that? They should not only be beautiful but kind, intelligent, versatile and hardy. In breeding just for speed with no regards for type (I leave aside the contentious issue of purity) we are losing all the other aspects of the Arabian so why bother; just get a thoroughbred as they are faster and better looking.

Sorry, just my thoughts. I am sure I will be shot down in flames but I want my Arabs to be all the things that attracted me to the breed in the first place; spirited but tractable and kind; beautiful but well conformed and rideable; in fact, an all round athelete who is also stunningly beautiful.

Barbara
gbfahne.gif ::



Barbara

Yes, you sare right. But the topic is " DO YOU KNOW YOUR COMPETION"....

I dont know about the UK, but here various people claoim they cant give their horses away. This has been so long before the economy went sour.

People, anywhere in the world, interested in breeding marketable stock for at least the amount it costs to produce them and grow them up have to know their competition or they will fail. Racing is NOT A FAD, HAS BEEN HERE FOR CENTURIES and will always be there I think.

We here in the USA have Arabian horses which no more resemble an arabian horse than I do. But they can run.
The entry forms also dont go by looks, but in certain cases by qualifications.

All I am trying here to do is our people to open their eyes, study why they cant market (those who cant) and what can be done about it. I have no problem with those wanting to breed for something they want to keep.
Better yet to test, because they might just have that Kentucky Derby winner so to speak in their back yard.

Its NOT just the French which excelle in racing, the Poles are no slouch either. And the English also have such good ones, one even winning that gruelling 100 mile race in Dubai time ago. So did the Aussies.

Take care
Hansi








Dieter
QUOTE (orient arabians @ Mar 27 2012, 10:21 AM) *
I must say that french racing arabians have discutable bloodlines, no purist would like to use them.. we agree that some anglo-arabian blood had been mixte even if no stud-book would say so..
Is this looking like an arabian ?

Click to view attachment

Michčle
Yes, this looks like an Arabian to me. Arabians are first and foremost a diverse breed in type. All of them have "type" which is accurately described as an overall appearance rather than a description of one, or two parts of the body. "The beautiful head, so typical of show-quality Arabians, is not necessarily typical of the desert breds, either now or in the past. It is instead patterned after artists' impressions of the Arabian head. Even a plain-headed horse looks typically Arabian when he is fired up, nostrils flared, and eyes popping. One thing not mentioned in the standard is "dryness" without which a head cannot be breedy, and in which the head is clean-cut with bone structure sharply defined, and the veins distinct. The fetish of shortness of face can be overdone, especially as such a head can also be meaty . . . the opposite of "dry". Many of the most beautiful heads are not especially short, but of course, they are not noticeably long either. It is noted that the faces of the best performance horses are rarely short, nor do they have an exaggerated dish. This may indicate a need for length in air passages, as well as room in sinus cavities, for maximum efficiency. Or perhaps this is only because few of the pretty-headed ones are worked hard enough to enable him to disprove the foregoing impression. Whatever its degree of dish or length of fore face, the typical Arabian head is unique with its ethereal beauty, it's expression of super-equine intelligence and of combined fire and sociability." write Gladys Brown Edwards. She goes on the say "The Arabian is by reputation, if not always by fact, quite short-backed, and this is presumed to account for his undeniable weight-carrying ability. The claim is often made that all Arabian horses have five lumbar (loin) vertebrae, while all other horses have six. This would put the Arabian in strange company, since "all" donkeys have but five vertebrae; half of the Przewalski horses whose skeletons were checked have five, the rest six; and these two equids can scarcely be considered short-backed. Despite that "all" claim however, nearly three-fourths of the Arabian (purebred) skeletons counted had six lumbar vertebrae, the rest of the much-vaunted five. In comparison assorted other types of horses, especially Thoroughbred and Morgan, occasionally had only five. The Arabian, however, is more often inclined to have only seventeen rather than eighteen pairs of ribs, and nearly always has two less caudal (tail) vertebrae. The short dock, compared to that of other horses, is clearly evident in Arabians, made more obvious by its high carriage. It maybe that the shorter length causes the higher carriage. The croup of the Arabian is more level than in most breeds, but not necessarily dead level. However, it does appear to be when the horse moves out, lifting his tail as soon as he starts forward, and accordingly, also lifting the first sections of the flexible caudal vertebrae." It's important to note the statement of the croup being comparatively level not at all dead level unless in motion. Dead level can sometimes be indicative of a tilted or tipped pelvis, which in mares, can create breeding problems. Gladys continues that "An Arabian should have all three breed-character points to be considered typey, but he can get by with only two - any two - and still do well in halter competition if he is also well-conformed. "Head hunters" may be content with a horse having a beautiful head, but otherwise faulty; practical horsemen are not so easily pleased. The public expects a horse to stand up to its work and one that is "all type and no horse," simply will not fill the bill."

The Arabian was and is a versatile, multi-faceted breed, so it's easy enough to accept the french racer as a purebred for me.
SKM
According to the information I have available, Madou (1939-1959) tracing to Arca (OA) is in fact of the Jelfet El Ghannam strain. French Stud Book Volume 6 states "de race de Djalfa, des arabes El-Ghannam. Arca was a bay mare who produced 11 foals in France before she died in 1899 (19 years after her import). The Jelfan (or Jilfan or Jalfan) is a Kehailan substrain. Another important mare of this strain imported to France was Wadha (OA, 1874, bay, imported from Syria to Algeria in 1877) she was a Jelfet El Dehoua which is still found to this day in Syria where they spell it as Kehailet Jalfet Dahwi, generally shortened to Jalfet Dahwi, this strain was originally bred by the Fedaan tribe. Another Jilfa strain still in Syria is the Keheilet Jalfet Sattam Al Boulad, actually usually shortened to Jalfet Sattam Al Boulad, this strain was originally owned by the Shammar tribe and was acquired from them by Butayyin Ibn Mirshid of the S’baa tribe. Lady Anne Blunt obtained her mare Jilfa from Ibn Mirshid, and Jilfa’s descendants can be found in many countries. Syria was a French protectorate for some time and many of the imports to France were from there. The horses were acquired not just for beauty, but for all their other qualities which the French needed for their huge breeding programmes. Purebred Arabians were bred to provide a permanent home-bred population which could also be out-crossed with other breeds to produce the cavalry horses they so badly needed.

I am not sure but I believe the El Ghannam tribe is/was based on the Syria/Lebanon border. It could be one of the many subtribes/families of the Bani Tamim. I dont have time to research that just now!

I am sorry if I ruffle any feathers here, but it is total western misunderstanding and nonsense to say that horses of the Managhi strain & the various substrains of it are angular, fast or long-necked - let alone "impure" in any way. If you said that to a Bedouin horse breeder in Syria, he would perhaps smile and maybe not correct you out of politeness, but privately he would feel sorry for you and assume you were sadly uneducated in the realities of his world.

So - here is some information from a talk given at the WAHO Conference in Damascus by Syrian expert Dr. Hazaim Alwair about the strains in Syria today. Take it or leave it as you will, according to your own preferences or prejudices - but these are the people that really do know what they are talking about. I am including the first part of the talk, and then the section on the Managhi strains in Syria today.

START QUOTE:
“The Daughters of the Wind” is what the Arab people used to call their horses. As you gathered from the first speaker and the film we have just seen, horses have always been a very important part of the Bedouin and the Arab culture. The horse was a survival element, why they expressed so much interest in their horses was that the horse was one of their daily tools of survival, whether helping to earn a living, going to war, or occupying other peoples’ territories, or going for pasture and moving and transporting all the time.

Now I just want to explain a little about the “Rasan” or the strains. This came from practical breeding of horses, it wasn’t just fantasy where somebody just sat down and invented the strains. They had to breed the best, they had to breed the most powerful, they had to breed the horse which would survive this harsh and sometimes very hostile environment – the heat, lack of food and lack of water. They had to breed the best of the best, to the best of the best. Purity was of the utmost importance to them because they found there was nothing to improve on these horses as they survived in this harsh environment. So it was important for them to keep them pure and not to introduce any foreign blood to them which would weaken them. Usually, if you’ve got the best, you don’t have to go around and look for something else better, if you have something doing the job there is no room for improvement.

At the time they started, they traced their horses from the father and this was a very complex issue, because not everybody used their own stallions but even so, the important stallions in the desert were very well known. Even nowadays, there are relatively few stallions and everybody knows where they are and they travel their mares to them for breeding. Every stallion, each season, would therefore have produced lots of colts and fillies, and in those days before blood tests or DNA typing it would have been difficult for the owners to prove that these foals were the progeny of particular stallions. On the other hand, when they traced the bloodline to the mother, the breeder would always know which dam produced which foal. Even if a mare was taken in war, or was sold or was owned in partnership, they would know who her dam was and which foals she had herself produced by which stallions. This made it much easier for the stallion owners as well, because it helped him to know which mare line his stallion had come from and which mares he had been used on. It doesn’t mean that that stallions are not important, in fact I think it is the opposite, but I think this is partly why certain stallions became so well known because of their strains and this is why people as well used the best of the stallions.

Now in Syria, you probably will notice it is one of the few countries in this group which still chooses stallions by strain. I was talking to Basil Jadaan recently and I asked him which stallion to use on one of my fillies, and he said to use the Ma’anagi Hedruji. I didn’t ask him the stallion’s name, we don’t often use their individual names, I just asked him ‘which Hedruji’ and he said the one bred by Ibn Ufaytan. And when he said that, I knew which stallion he meant and where it came from and that was enough proof of purity. There is no way on earth Ibn Ufaytan would have an impure stallion, he would not have lied about the pedigree of his stallion, and that’s it. This is why, when you buy horses in Syria you ask the breeder ‘Who is the father of your mare’, and he will say ‘Oh it’s the bay Ma’anagi Hedruji’. You ask ‘Which one’, he replies ‘It’s the one owned by the Sheikh of the Tai’. Most people who hear that would know which stallion he means. Probably he would not know all the registered names in the stallion’s full pedigree, maybe not even of the sire and dam, but he would know their strains and their breeders and he would know he could legitimately use this horse without worrying about introducing any foreign blood.

I started this research into Syrian strains because I found one of the most important things in our Arabian horses, is that if you speak to the Bedouin here the strains are still firmly part of their breeding programme and it is still part of how they introduce and describe their horses. I have not seen this extensively used abroad in the same way, although a lot of people elsewhere do talk about strains and they have tried to label certain types to certain strains. If you speak to the Bedouins who still breed the Saglawi, who still breed the Ma’anagi – these people are still living, their great-great-grandfathers used to own and breed these horses, they would tell you that they had never thought that the Ma’anagi Sbeyli was ugly or fast or that the Saglawi was the pretty one. They would tell you that they had always bred their particular strains because they knew which tribe they came from, who kept them, who looked after them. So if they wanted to breed a powerful horse, they would choose a powerful Ma’anaghi or a powerful Saglawi. One of the examples in recent years is Fnitel, who was the Ma’anagi Sbeyli stallion of the Risaleen of the S’baa from the Anezeh. Fnitel was a stallion who was bred extensively earlier in the last century, and he was even taken to the city of Hama to be bred. This is because, when the Ruwala attacked the S’baa, the only survivals of that battle was Fnitel and his daughters, no other horses survived that battle. So people just went straight away to use this particular stallion and started breeding to him extensively.

It’s like, when you look at the Egyptian breeding programmes, some stallions stamped their mark on the programme. And in a similar way when you talk to the Bedouin, they will remember certain stallions about which they say ‘We wish we could have bred our mares to that stallion, we wish he had lived longer’. On the other hand, they might also say ‘Oh, we wish we hadn’t bred to that stallion, he was powerful but we were disappointed in his foals’.

SNIP...
The Ma’anagieh Hedrujieh is one of the most valued and respected strains in the desert to breed from. The strain originally belonged to Ibn Hudruj of the Amarat tribe who are part of the Anezeh confederation.

Ibn Ufaytan of the Shammar has been breeding this strain for a long time and I went to talk to him about this strain. He is a very modest man, and he said he was very proud that we had come to ask about his horses. He told us that 6 human generations ago, his 5 times-great grandfather took their original mare of this strain directly from the Anezeh on the battlefield and his family has bred them ever since, probably for well over two hundred years. It took his family some time to get the mare’s provenance, because the Anezeh were very upset about losing this mare. What happened was this. When the mare was captured, the new owner went to the previous owner in the Anezeh and said ‘By Allah, who is this mare’. And the man replied, ‘I didn’t breed her but if you pay me one camel, I will give you the name of the man I took her from’. So he paid him one camel, got the name and went to see the next man, who said ‘I didn’t breed this mare, I took her from such and such a man. If you pay me one camel, I will give you his name’. This scenario was repeated until 7 camels had been given in payment to 7 different people and he reached the original breeder.

The well known Ma’anagieh Sbeylieh strain is from the Ma’anagieh Hedrujieh and took its name from the original owner, Ibn Sbeyil of the S’baa tribe. More recently, the strain was bred by Zudghum of the S’baa tribe, and by Abu Saifain of the Fedaan tribe. Abu Saifain’s great-grandfather gave his name to the Ma’anagieh Sbeyliet Abou Saifain strain. The name Saifain means “Two Swords” because the original owner of this strain carried and used two swords in battle.

Lady Anne Blunt imported Ferida from this strain to the UK, and Major Roger Upton imported Haidee. Lady Anne Blunt in her book mentions that she saw two mares taken by the Aqaydat tribe from Anezeh. Today the Aqaydat still own and breed some of the most beautiful and best Ma’anagieh Sbeylieh mares, and they will tell you they took this strain from the Anezeh. I heard about one Ma’anaghieh Sbeylieh mare, bred by the Aqaydat, who was bought by a religious man from Aleppo because they believe that the Ma’anagieh Hedrujieh was a horse of Prophet Mohammed (pboh), and they say that when the Ma’anaghieh sweats, you can see a palm-print on the right side of her neck, because this is where the Prophet put his hand on his mare’s neck. I myself have not witnessed this.

I can tell you a couple of true stories about the Ma’anagieh Sbeyliet Abou Saifain strain. About 20 years ago, the chief of the Fedaan wanted Abu Saifain’s horses, so he had to leave all the land he had bought and all his other possessions, and migrate away just to prevent his horses being taken and to protect his mares. At the time of the first registrations for the first stud book in Syria, it was very hard to reach him, he was living in very harsh circumstances in the desert. One day, when he had to dig a well to find water for his horses, he let one of his favourite mares loose and followed her as she walked. When she stopped, he dug a well where her hind legs had been, and there he found water. He was very strict about his horses’ pedigrees, for example one of his mares was bred to an Obayan stallion and this covering was witnessed by one of his sons. But because he himself was not there, he would not witness the pedigree for the foal, even though it was his son who was actually holding the mare’s head collar when she was covered. He was so honest, he said ‘They say the sire is the Obayan but I do not know, I was not there, so I cannot bear witness to that’. So this is living proof of how the Bedouins are so strict about their horses’ provenance.

The Ma’anagiet Tarboush is found in Syria, originally from the horses of the Anezeh tribe and is now bred by the Aqaydat. They were called by the Bedouins after their breeder, a religious Sufi person who used to wear a Turkish hat known as a ‘tarboush’.

The Ma’anagiet Al Aqraa’ is called after their breeder who took the Ma’anagieh Sbeylieh from the Anezeh tribe. This is a very rare strain today.
END QUOTE
SKM
It stands to reason that if you select and breed for speed for some 80 years, as some French breeders did due to the popularity of racing for Arabians in their country, you will end up with a very different 'type' of horse than the ones bred for 'beauty' or for 'trot' or any other characteristic breeders might choose to emphasise, for the same length of time. It does not mean the fast ones are any less 'pure' than the 'pretty' ones or the ' trotty' ones.
Nadj al Nur
I am so glad you posted all of that. Thank you, and may I have your permission to quote it elsewhere ?
Cathy
SKM
There is a danger in jumping to conclusions about strains by looking at phenotype, especially when these have been misinterpreted in the west for so long anyway.

As it happens, Manganate has a miniscule amount of Managhi blood in his 5-generation pedigree - it comes only through 2 crosses to Burkeguy in the 5th generation. Burkeguy (1899 chestnut) traces on the dam's side to Ferha, bay mare imported to France in 1876, her sire a Kehailan Abu Junoob and her dam a Maneghiah. Having said that, on Burkeguy's 5 generation pedigree the only recorded Managhi blood is the 50% from Ferha herself, no other horse in his pedigree is of this strain, so Burkeguy himself has only 6.25% recorded Managhi strain in his pedigree, all the rest is either not recorded, or Seglawi Jedran, or Jelfan, or Kehailan Abu Junoob, or Hamdani. By my reckoning, that gives Manganate just 0.390% Managhi strain in his 5-generation pedigree.

So now let's take a closer look at Manganate's pedigree. I am sure it is up on allbreedpedigree for those who want to take a look. First of all, he is quite inbred. He has 3 crosses to Norniz, 4 to Denouste, 2 to Djebel Mousa, 5 to Latif, 4 to Djaima, 3 to Dragomme, 2 to Telmese, 2 to Burkeguy, 2 to Mekine, 2 to Khouri and 2 to Dame Tartine, all within five generations.
Now let's look at the strains. I won't put it for all the mares as obviously their sons inherited the strains so it is easy to follow if I just put in the stallions. Strain spellings of the OA imports are mostly from the early French studbooks (phonetic Arabic to French).

Manganate: Strain not recorded (family of Em-Arkoub). Em-Arkoub was a bay mare imported to France from Syria in 1880, her sire was recorded in the French Stud Book as "Abou-Arkoub, des tribus Anaze". Abu-Argub is a Kehailan substrain.
Saint Laurent: (Kehailan) Jelfan El Ghannam (Arca)
Baroud II: Hadban (Balkis)
Dragon: Seglawi (Warda)
Denouste: Seglawi Mukhalladi (Merjane)
Norniz: (Kehailan) Jelfan El Ghannam (Arca) (Note: Same strain as Amica (1927), to whom he was bred to produce Madou, dam of Saint Laurent).
Latif (OA, 1903): Strain not recorded. Sire a Hamdani El Samra (or Hamdani Simri) of the El S'baa tribe. Dam's strain not recorded, she was from the El Fedaan tribe.
Djebel: Seglawi (Warda)
Djebel Mousa: Seglawi (Warda)
Nedjanor: Hamdani El Sbaa (Zulma)
Khouri (OA): Strain not recorded. Sire an Abeyan-Chraq (or Abeyan Sharraq), dam from the Fedaan tribe
Sinai: Seglawi (Warda)
Telmese (OA, 1903): Kehailan Ajuz (from the Shammar tribe)
Burkeguy: Managhi (Ferha)
Flibustier: Strain Not Recorded (family of Aissa)
Ghalabawi (OA, 1906): Sire: a Hamdani-El-Samri; Dam: an Abia Charraq
Abadir: Hamdani (Zenab)

As for his phenotype - take a look on the internet for photos of Denouste (remembering Manganate has 4 crosses to him) and Latif (OA) (5 crosses), and the various others. Whatever the gossips say about 'outside' blood - on phenotype he looks you would expect him to look when you have seen what his ancestors looked like.
SKM
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Mar 27 2012, 07:32 PM) *
I am so glad you posted all of that. Thank you, and may I have your permission to quote it elsewhere ?
Cathy

Sorry - please do not quote it elsewhere. Many thanks.
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (SKM @ Mar 27 2012, 12:35 PM) *
Sorry - please do not quote it elsewhere. Many thanks.

OK.....no problem.
C
SKM
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Mar 27 2012, 07:38 PM) *
OK.....no problem.
C

If you contact the WAHO Office in UK with your address, I feel sure they would be happy to send you a copy of the booklet of the Syria Conference which contains the full text of Dr. Alwair's talk, if you would like to see it all it is extremely interesting. It is copyright of Dr. Alwair so please don't copy any of it over the internet! I have his permission to put occasional extracts up to clarify certain things that arise from time to time.
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (SKM @ Mar 27 2012, 12:41 PM) *
If you contact the WAHO Office in UK with your address, I feel sure they would be happy to send you a copy of the booklet of the Syria Conference which contains the full text of Dr. Alwair's talk, if you would like to see it all it is extremely interesting. It is copyright of Dr. Alwair so please don't copy any of it over the internet! I have his permission to put occasional extracts up to clarify certain things that arise from time to time.

Thanx. I will do that.
C
HLM
QUOTE (SKM @ Mar 27 2012, 07:33 PM) *
According to the information I have available, Madou (1939-1959) tracing to Arca (OA) is in fact of the Jelfet El Ghannam strain. French Stud Book Volume 6 states "de race de Djalfa, des arabes El-Ghannam. Arca was a bay mare who produced 11 foals in France before she died in 1899 (19 years after her import). The Jelfan (or Jilfan or Jalfan) is a Kehailan substrain. Another important mare of this strain imported to France was Wadha (OA, 1874, bay, imported from Syria to Algeria in 1877) she was a Jelfet El Dehoua which is still found to this day in Syria where they spell it as Kehailet Jalfet Dahwi, generally shortened to Jalfet Dahwi, this strain was originally bred by the Fedaan tribe. Another Jilfa strain still in Syria is the Keheilet Jalfet Sattam Al Boulad, actually usually shortened to Jalfet Sattam Al Boulad, this strain was originally owned by the Shammar tribe and was acquired from them by Butayyin Ibn Mirshid of the S’baa tribe. Lady Anne Blunt obtained her mare Jilfa from Ibn Mirshid, and Jilfa’s descendants can be found in many countries. Syria was a French protectorate for some time and many of the imports to France were from there. The horses were acquired not just for beauty, but for all their other qualities which the French needed for their huge breeding programmes. Purebred Arabians were bred to provide a permanent home-bred population which could also be out-crossed with other breeds to produce the cavalry horses they so badly needed.

I am not sure but I believe the El Ghannam tribe is/was based on the Syria/Lebanon border. It could be one of the many subtribes/families of the Bani Tamim. I dont have time to research that just now!

I am sorry if I ruffle any feathers here, but it is total western misunderstanding and nonsense to say that horses of the Managhi strain & the various substrains of it are angular, fast or long-necked - let alone "impure" in any way. If you said that to a Bedouin horse breeder in Syria, he would perhaps smile and maybe not correct you out of politeness, but privately he would feel sorry for you and assume you were sadly uneducated in the realities of his world.

So - here is some information from a talk given at the WAHO Conference in Damascus by Syrian expert Dr. Hazaim Alwair about the strains in Syria today. Take it or leave it as you will, according to your own preferences or prejudices - but these are the people that really do know what they are talking about. I am including the first part of the talk, and then the section on the Managhi strains in Syria today.

START QUOTE:
“The Daughters of the Wind” is what the Arab people used to call their horses. As you gathered from the first speaker and the film we have just seen, horses have always been a very important part of the Bedouin and the Arab culture. The horse was a survival element, why they expressed so much interest in their horses was that the horse was one of their daily tools of survival, whether helping to earn a living, going to war, or occupying other peoples’ territories, or going for pasture and moving and transporting all the time.

Now I just want to explain a little about the “Rasan” or the strains. This came from practical breeding of horses, it wasn’t just fantasy where somebody just sat down and invented the strains. They had to breed the best, they had to breed the most powerful, they had to breed the horse which would survive this harsh and sometimes very hostile environment – the heat, lack of food and lack of water. They had to breed the best of the best, to the best of the best. Purity was of the utmost importance to them because they found there was nothing to improve on these horses as they survived in this harsh environment. So it was important for them to keep them pure and not to introduce any foreign blood to them which would weaken them. Usually, if you’ve got the best, you don’t have to go around and look for something else better, if you have something doing the job there is no room for improvement.

At the time they started, they traced their horses from the father and this was a very complex issue, because not everybody used their own stallions but even so, the important stallions in the desert were very well known. Even nowadays, there are relatively few stallions and everybody knows where they are and they travel their mares to them for breeding. Every stallion, each season, would therefore have produced lots of colts and fillies, and in those days before blood tests or DNA typing it would have been difficult for the owners to prove that these foals were the progeny of particular stallions. On the other hand, when they traced the bloodline to the mother, the breeder would always know which dam produced which foal. Even if a mare was taken in war, or was sold or was owned in partnership, they would know who her dam was and which foals she had herself produced by which stallions. This made it much easier for the stallion owners as well, because it helped him to know which mare line his stallion had come from and which mares he had been used on. It doesn’t mean that that stallions are not important, in fact I think it is the opposite, but I think this is partly why certain stallions became so well known because of their strains and this is why people as well used the best of the stallions.

Now in Syria, you probably will notice it is one of the few countries in this group which still chooses stallions by strain. I was talking to Basil Jadaan recently and I asked him which stallion to use on one of my fillies, and he said to use the Ma’anagi Hedruji. I didn’t ask him the stallion’s name, we don’t often use their individual names, I just asked him ‘which Hedruji’ and he said the one bred by Ibn Ufaytan. And when he said that, I knew which stallion he meant and where it came from and that was enough proof of purity. There is no way on earth Ibn Ufaytan would have an impure stallion, he would not have lied about the pedigree of his stallion, and that’s it. This is why, when you buy horses in Syria you ask the breeder ‘Who is the father of your mare’, and he will say ‘Oh it’s the bay Ma’anagi Hedruji’. You ask ‘Which one’, he replies ‘It’s the one owned by the Sheikh of the Tai’. Most people who hear that would know which stallion he means. Probably he would not know all the registered names in the stallion’s full pedigree, maybe not even of the sire and dam, but he would know their strains and their breeders and he would know he could legitimately use this horse without worrying about introducing any foreign blood.

I started this research into Syrian strains because I found one of the most important things in our Arabian horses, is that if you speak to the Bedouin here the strains are still firmly part of their breeding programme and it is still part of how they introduce and describe their horses. I have not seen this extensively used abroad in the same way, although a lot of people elsewhere do talk about strains and they have tried to label certain types to certain strains. If you speak to the Bedouins who still breed the Saglawi, who still breed the Ma’anagi – these people are still living, their great-great-grandfathers used to own and breed these horses, they would tell you that they had never thought that the Ma’anagi Sbeyli was ugly or fast or that the Saglawi was the pretty one. They would tell you that they had always bred their particular strains because they knew which tribe they came from, who kept them, who looked after them. So if they wanted to breed a powerful horse, they would choose a powerful Ma’anaghi or a powerful Saglawi. One of the examples in recent years is Fnitel, who was the Ma’anagi Sbeyli stallion of the Risaleen of the S’baa from the Anezeh. Fnitel was a stallion who was bred extensively earlier in the last century, and he was even taken to the city of Hama to be bred. This is because, when the Ruwala attacked the S’baa, the only survivals of that battle was Fnitel and his daughters, no other horses survived that battle. So people just went straight away to use this particular stallion and started breeding to him extensively.

It’s like, when you look at the Egyptian breeding programmes, some stallions stamped their mark on the programme. And in a similar way when you talk to the Bedouin, they will remember certain stallions about which they say ‘We wish we could have bred our mares to that stallion, we wish he had lived longer’. On the other hand, they might also say ‘Oh, we wish we hadn’t bred to that stallion, he was powerful but we were disappointed in his foals’.

SNIP...
The Ma’anagieh Hedrujieh is one of the most valued and respected strains in the desert to breed from. The strain originally belonged to Ibn Hudruj of the Amarat tribe who are part of the Anezeh confederation.

Ibn Ufaytan of the Shammar has been breeding this strain for a long time and I went to talk to him about this strain. He is a very modest man, and he said he was very proud that we had come to ask about his horses. He told us that 6 human generations ago, his 5 times-great grandfather took their original mare of this strain directly from the Anezeh on the battlefield and his family has bred them ever since, probably for well over two hundred years. It took his family some time to get the mare’s provenance, because the Anezeh were very upset about losing this mare. What happened was this. When the mare was captured, the new owner went to the previous owner in the Anezeh and said ‘By Allah, who is this mare’. And the man replied, ‘I didn’t breed her but if you pay me one camel, I will give you the name of the man I took her from’. So he paid him one camel, got the name and went to see the next man, who said ‘I didn’t breed this mare, I took her from such and such a man. If you pay me one camel, I will give you his name’. This scenario was repeated until 7 camels had been given in payment to 7 different people and he reached the original breeder.

The well known Ma’anagieh Sbeylieh strain is from the Ma’anagieh Hedrujieh and took its name from the original owner, Ibn Sbeyil of the S’baa tribe. More recently, the strain was bred by Zudghum of the S’baa tribe, and by Abu Saifain of the Fedaan tribe. Abu Saifain’s great-grandfather gave his name to the Ma’anagieh Sbeyliet Abou Saifain strain. The name Saifain means “Two Swords” because the original owner of this strain carried and used two swords in battle.

Lady Anne Blunt imported Ferida from this strain to the UK, and Major Roger Upton imported Haidee. Lady Anne Blunt in her book mentions that she saw two mares taken by the Aqaydat tribe from Anezeh. Today the Aqaydat still own and breed some of the most beautiful and best Ma’anagieh Sbeylieh mares, and they will tell you they took this strain from the Anezeh. I heard about one Ma’anaghieh Sbeylieh mare, bred by the Aqaydat, who was bought by a religious man from Aleppo because they believe that the Ma’anagieh Hedrujieh was a horse of Prophet Mohammed (pboh), and they say that when the Ma’anaghieh sweats, you can see a palm-print on the right side of her neck, because this is where the Prophet put his hand on his mare’s neck. I myself have not witnessed this.

I can tell you a couple of true stories about the Ma’anagieh Sbeyliet Abou Saifain strain. About 20 years ago, the chief of the Fedaan wanted Abu Saifain’s horses, so he had to leave all the land he had bought and all his other possessions, and migrate away just to prevent his horses being taken and to protect his mares. At the time of the first registrations for the first stud book in Syria, it was very hard to reach him, he was living in very harsh circumstances in the desert. One day, when he had to dig a well to find water for his horses, he let one of his favourite mares loose and followed her as she walked. When she stopped, he dug a well where her hind legs had been, and there he found water. He was very strict about his horses’ pedigrees, for example one of his mares was bred to an Obayan stallion and this covering was witnessed by one of his sons. But because he himself was not there, he would not witness the pedigree for the foal, even though it was his son who was actually holding the mare’s head collar when she was covered. He was so honest, he said ‘They say the sire is the Obayan but I do not know, I was not there, so I cannot bear witness to that’. So this is living proof of how the Bedouins are so strict about their horses’ provenance.

The Ma’anagiet Tarboush is found in Syria, originally from the horses of the Anezeh tribe and is now bred by the Aqaydat. They were called by the Bedouins after their breeder, a religious Sufi person who used to wear a Turkish hat known as a ‘tarboush’.

The Ma’anagiet Al Aqraa’ is called after their breeder who took the Ma’anagieh Sbeylieh from the Anezeh tribe. This is a very rare strain today.
END QUOTE



Thank you SKM and I will correct my data which I got in part from one of my Mentors. I have the french studbook Vol 13/P1042 infront of me , and they simply show "race Djalfa".Imp.1980- etc.

I agree also with you that Muniquis are not ugly as often stated. I had "Zarlysa" (1979- a Mu'niqi Sbailiah who won the most classic championship, as well as verious others. She was georgeous with also a georgeous head and in type/body a lot like Serenity Sonbolah.She never lost a class to the best of my recollection.

I have seen some georgous French Horses at one of the Royal Stables in the UAE, Manganate bloodline,
which looked very much like an Arabian horse to me.

I was there at my friend's Dr Hazzaim speach at the WAHO meeting, which was excellent and also agree with you that another dear Friend Basil Jadaan is a wizzard when it comes to pedigrees, tribes, the bedus in general, etc.
I learned a lot from them.

I guess we all have our preferences and our eyes see different to others and I respect that. I never liked to have the French horses cut down, when they are doing so well and that the impurity in Manganate of a TB and Anglo has not been proven, DNA might eventually, I dont know.

Please let us hear more, I like your post very much, just love education. You will never ruffle my feathers either as all of us sooner or later stand correded on something, eh.

Take care and thanks again
hansi


HLM
QUOTE (SKM @ Mar 27 2012, 07:49 PM) *
It stands to reason that if you select and breed for speed for some 80 years, as some French breeders did due to the popularity of racing for Arabians in their country, you will end up with a very different 'type' of horse than the ones bred for 'beauty' or for 'trot' or any other characteristic breeders might choose to emphasise, for the same length of time. It does not mean the fast ones are any less 'pure' than the 'pretty' ones or the ' trotty' ones.



SKM

What data do you have on Fez (1894) and Emmon/Adjali?

adjali ( c.1850) I am unable to trace any records.

emmon (1819) Bought in England by Strubberg. Import H Nationaux France in 1825, died 1837.

the above is in Burkeguy's pedigree.

thanks kindly
Hansi
Dieter
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 27 2012, 11:40 AM) *
Dear Liz

well you are right, as usual, with the Muniqi blood. Madou (1939), dam of the great Saint Laurent (1948) indeed is a Muniqi Silfa mare going to the foundation mare "Arca" (c.1875) import by France in 1880 from the El Ghannam Tribe.
I think that tribe was in persia (Turkey may be)? I am not sure. She was a "desertbred". Therefore I guess Manganate is half a Mu'Niqi, right?

Take care
hansi
Dear Hansi,

In order for me to make some sort of calculation about what percentage of Mu'Niqi Manganate is, we'd have to look back through all the ancestors to determine what they were then bring all that forth by the number of divisions in the generations to come to a first generation conclusion. But the horse favors a Mu'Niqi phenotype, so clearly inherited that from his paternal granddam, Madou, who interestingly enough was more than 3/4 sister to his maternal grandsire, Dragon. It's no wonder the horse could run and is a super sire of runners wink.gif with 193 foals.

There are a few SE's that have run or are still running:

KWEENA AHR*393547 26 May 1987 Grey Mare
ZAMEEN AHR*421701 04 Jun 1988 Grey Stallion
EL SAKKARA AHR*427477 26 Feb 1989 Chestnut Gelding
RUMINAJA RASHID AHR*452886 14 May 1990 Bay Stallion
EL KATIM AHR*453778 06 May 1990 Bay Gelding
F M NAFTU AHR*454360 27 Jun 1990 Grey Stallion
VICTORIA EL DIN AHR*455904 06 May 1990 Bay Mare
IBN SAHEEDAH AHR*465100 30 Mar 1991 Grey Stallion
NILEATOR AHR*473223 06 Apr 1991 Chestnut Gelding
ALIZEER AHR*474268 27 Jan 1991 Chestnut Stallion
RCF MICHAIAH AHR*474537 18 May 1991 Grey Stallion
TAMMENS DAHLI AHR*475829 13 Apr 1991 Chestnut Gelding
ASJAHS DOMINION AHR*480169 14 Jun 1991 Grey Stallion
ABRADU AHR*482422 03 Mar 1992 Grey Gelding
SOHAAR EL SHARAF AHR*483197 29 Feb 1992 Grey Gelding
ORRIE AHR*483992 21 Mar 1991 Chestnut Gelding
KWILCHENA AHR*486786 01 May 1992 Grey Stallion
RCF SHAHMAN HALIM AHR*487395 17 Apr 1992 Bay Gelding
MISS SABREEN AHR*489912 14 Jun 1992 Chestnut Mare
KOKANEE AHR*492636 03 May 1993 Bay Mare
NEBI AHR*494431 19 Mar 1993 Grey Stallion
LABEED AHR*497109 19 Feb 1992 Chestnut Gelding
ALI SHARAF AHR*497748 15 Apr 1992 Grey Gelding
RCF KALLAI AHR*499909 08 Jul 1993 Bay Mare
SERENITY SHAHAIL AHR*501778 24 Mar 1994 Grey Stallion
APOCALYPSE MGR AHR*504572 13 Feb 1993 Chestnut Gelding
KHE ADH AMIR AHR*508932 28 Apr 1994 Black Gelding
G TAMAKHOUS AHR*509121 09 Feb 1992 Grey Stallion
SIRHABBA HAFIID AHR*516205 18 Apr 1995 Chestnut Stallion
ASJAHS BLACK JEWL AHR*516969 18 Jun 1993 Bay Mare
KAWAKA AHR*517159 13 Feb 1995 Bay Stallion
NAKHDA AZZIM AHR*519664 03 Mar 1995 Bay Gelding
ALIH IL SAHM AHR*520074 10 Apr 1995 Grey Gelding
THE BOUNTY HUNTER AHR*524931 22 May 1995 Chestnut Stallion
SOKARIS AHR*530930 31 Mar 1996 Chestnut Gelding
SEAN SAHAB AHR*531666 26 Mar 1996 Chestnut Stallion
SUNDOWN EGYPTIAN EMIR AHR*531960 05 Apr 1991 Grey Stallion
ALIS JURISDICTION AHR*537908 06 Jul 1996 Grey Gelding
LF JORDYANN AHR*539033 13 Jun 1995 Chestnut Mare
AWWALI AHR*539477 06 Apr 1996 Chestnut Stallion
ALI ASJAH AHR*540432 03 Apr 1994 Chestnut Stallion
BG PAALOMA AHR*542706 26 Feb 1997 Grey Mare
THE BEAUJOLAIS AHR*543756 24 Jun 1997 Chestnut Gelding
WAHID ALI AHR*557015 16 May 1997 Grey Stallion
SAKR AL KHALID (KAR TATOO) AHR*563562 19 Apr 1998 Grey Stallion
BINT AMIRA SAMIM AHR*564088 25 Apr 1999 Chestnut Mare
TP HALIM EINDAFA AHR*570169 03 May 1998 Chestnut Gelding
DESPERADOS CHARM AHR*574976 04 Apr 1998 Chestnut Mare
CAUTION-TNT AHR*576434 13 Apr 1996 Grey Gelding
RISING SON RC AHR*583558 12 Jun 1999 Grey Gelding
ENIGMHA AHR*588131 21 Aug 2000 Grey Stallion
RCF BLUE MOON AHR*588781 23 May 2000 Grey Mare
KHIDRON AHR*590873 29 May 2001 Grey Gelding
MIA BINT BAYFIRE AHR*594132 18 Jan 2002 Bay Mare
RCF KANDAHAR AHR*594710 14 Apr 2002 Bay Gelding
RCF LIBELLA AHR*596547 19 Jun 2002 Bay Mare
CASSIOPEIA WP AHR*597101 24 Jun 2002 Bay Mare
IBN SHAI II AHR*610454 05 Mar 2004 Bay Stallion
BINT NARIYA AHR*637491 21 May 2005 Grey Mare
BALANCE IASB AHR*637820 29 Feb 2004 Chestnut Stallion
BARIQ AL MUBAYAAN AHR*637823 04 Apr 2003 Chestnut Stallion
FARAZDAN AHR*645365 27 Apr 2008 Chestnut Stallion
VICTORIA EL DIN CAHR*28432 06 May 1990 Bay Mare
SUNDOWN EGYPTIAN EMIR CAHR*33164 05 Apr 1991 Grey Stallion
SUNDOWN SHALAUM'S AMIRA CAHR*34655 16 May 1994 Grey Mare
KWILCHENA CAHR*34853 01 May 1992 Grey Gelding
KAWAKA CAHR*37246 13 Feb 1995 Bay Stallion
KOKANEE CAHR*39722 03 May 1993 Bay Mare
MEANWHILE SAFARR CAHR*39780 03 Sep 1997 Grey Gelding
RCF KALLAI CAHR*46802 08 Jul 1993 Bay Mare
BARIQ AL MUBAYAAN IASB*2905 04 Apr 2003 Chestnut Stallion
BALANCE IASB*3065 29 Feb 2004 Chestnut Stallion

More would be good too . . . hopefully there is more in endurance.
HLM
QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 27 2012, 11:54 PM) *
Dear Hansi,

In order for me to make some sort of calculation about what percentage of Mu'Niqi Manganate is, we'd have to look back through all the ancestors to determine what they were then bring all that forth by the number of divisions in the generations to come to a first generation conclusion. But the horse favors a Mu'Niqi phenotype, so clearly inherited that from his paternal granddam, Madou, who interestingly enough was more than 3/4 sister to his maternal grandsire, Dragon. It's no wonder the horse could run and is a super sire of runners wink.gif with 193 foals.

There are a few SE's that have run or are still running:

KWEENA AHR*393547 26 May 1987 Grey Mare
ZAMEEN AHR*421701 04 Jun 1988 Grey Stallion
EL SAKKARA AHR*427477 26 Feb 1989 Chestnut Gelding
RUMINAJA RASHID AHR*452886 14 May 1990 Bay Stallion
EL KATIM AHR*453778 06 May 1990 Bay Gelding
F M NAFTU AHR*454360 27 Jun 1990 Grey Stallion
VICTORIA EL DIN AHR*455904 06 May 1990 Bay Mare
IBN SAHEEDAH AHR*465100 30 Mar 1991 Grey Stallion
NILEATOR AHR*473223 06 Apr 1991 Chestnut Gelding
ALIZEER AHR*474268 27 Jan 1991 Chestnut Stallion
RCF MICHAIAH AHR*474537 18 May 1991 Grey Stallion
TAMMENS DAHLI AHR*475829 13 Apr 1991 Chestnut Gelding
ASJAHS DOMINION AHR*480169 14 Jun 1991 Grey Stallion
ABRADU AHR*482422 03 Mar 1992 Grey Gelding
SOHAAR EL SHARAF AHR*483197 29 Feb 1992 Grey Gelding
ORRIE AHR*483992 21 Mar 1991 Chestnut Gelding
KWILCHENA AHR*486786 01 May 1992 Grey Stallion
RCF SHAHMAN HALIM AHR*487395 17 Apr 1992 Bay Gelding
MISS SABREEN AHR*489912 14 Jun 1992 Chestnut Mare
KOKANEE AHR*492636 03 May 1993 Bay Mare
NEBI AHR*494431 19 Mar 1993 Grey Stallion
LABEED AHR*497109 19 Feb 1992 Chestnut Gelding
ALI SHARAF AHR*497748 15 Apr 1992 Grey Gelding
RCF KALLAI AHR*499909 08 Jul 1993 Bay Mare
SERENITY SHAHAIL AHR*501778 24 Mar 1994 Grey Stallion
APOCALYPSE MGR AHR*504572 13 Feb 1993 Chestnut Gelding
KHE ADH AMIR AHR*508932 28 Apr 1994 Black Gelding
G TAMAKHOUS AHR*509121 09 Feb 1992 Grey Stallion
SIRHABBA HAFIID AHR*516205 18 Apr 1995 Chestnut Stallion
ASJAHS BLACK JEWL AHR*516969 18 Jun 1993 Bay Mare
KAWAKA AHR*517159 13 Feb 1995 Bay Stallion
NAKHDA AZZIM AHR*519664 03 Mar 1995 Bay Gelding
ALIH IL SAHM AHR*520074 10 Apr 1995 Grey Gelding
THE BOUNTY HUNTER AHR*524931 22 May 1995 Chestnut Stallion
SOKARIS AHR*530930 31 Mar 1996 Chestnut Gelding
SEAN SAHAB AHR*531666 26 Mar 1996 Chestnut Stallion
SUNDOWN EGYPTIAN EMIR AHR*531960 05 Apr 1991 Grey Stallion
ALIS JURISDICTION AHR*537908 06 Jul 1996 Grey Gelding
LF JORDYANN AHR*539033 13 Jun 1995 Chestnut Mare
AWWALI AHR*539477 06 Apr 1996 Chestnut Stallion
ALI ASJAH AHR*540432 03 Apr 1994 Chestnut Stallion
BG PAALOMA AHR*542706 26 Feb 1997 Grey Mare
THE BEAUJOLAIS AHR*543756 24 Jun 1997 Chestnut Gelding
WAHID ALI AHR*557015 16 May 1997 Grey Stallion
SAKR AL KHALID (KAR TATOO) AHR*563562 19 Apr 1998 Grey Stallion
BINT AMIRA SAMIM AHR*564088 25 Apr 1999 Chestnut Mare
TP HALIM EINDAFA AHR*570169 03 May 1998 Chestnut Gelding
DESPERADOS CHARM AHR*574976 04 Apr 1998 Chestnut Mare
CAUTION-TNT AHR*576434 13 Apr 1996 Grey Gelding
RISING SON RC AHR*583558 12 Jun 1999 Grey Gelding
ENIGMHA AHR*588131 21 Aug 2000 Grey Stallion
RCF BLUE MOON AHR*588781 23 May 2000 Grey Mare
KHIDRON AHR*590873 29 May 2001 Grey Gelding
MIA BINT BAYFIRE AHR*594132 18 Jan 2002 Bay Mare
RCF KANDAHAR AHR*594710 14 Apr 2002 Bay Gelding
RCF LIBELLA AHR*596547 19 Jun 2002 Bay Mare
CASSIOPEIA WP AHR*597101 24 Jun 2002 Bay Mare
IBN SHAI II AHR*610454 05 Mar 2004 Bay Stallion
BINT NARIYA AHR*637491 21 May 2005 Grey Mare
BALANCE IASB AHR*637820 29 Feb 2004 Chestnut Stallion
BARIQ AL MUBAYAAN AHR*637823 04 Apr 2003 Chestnut Stallion
FARAZDAN AHR*645365 27 Apr 2008 Chestnut Stallion
VICTORIA EL DIN CAHR*28432 06 May 1990 Bay Mare
SUNDOWN EGYPTIAN EMIR CAHR*33164 05 Apr 1991 Grey Stallion
SUNDOWN SHALAUM'S AMIRA CAHR*34655 16 May 1994 Grey Mare
KWILCHENA CAHR*34853 01 May 1992 Grey Gelding
KAWAKA CAHR*37246 13 Feb 1995 Bay Stallion
KOKANEE CAHR*39722 03 May 1993 Bay Mare
MEANWHILE SAFARR CAHR*39780 03 Sep 1997 Grey Gelding
RCF KALLAI CAHR*46802 08 Jul 1993 Bay Mare
BARIQ AL MUBAYAAN IASB*2905 04 Apr 2003 Chestnut Stallion
BALANCE IASB*3065 29 Feb 2004 Chestnut Stallion

More would be good too . . . hopefully there is more in endurance.



thanks Liz, I guess you mean they were running

Please SKM's post, she corrected my data, for which I thanked her. Adjustment of strain came from my mentors years ago
because the french stud books are not often that detailed.
Happ that I could correct it now.

Hansi
Dieter
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 27 2012, 06:50 PM) *
thanks Liz, I guess you mean they were running

Please SKM's post, she corrected my data, for which I thanked her. Adjustment of strain came from my mentors years ago
because the french stud books are not often that detailed.
Happ that I could correct it now.

Hansi

Yes, they were running. I did note SKM's excellent post and that Managhi blood was less than 1% wink.gif I was entirely wrong on his phenotype smile.gif
HLM
QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 28 2012, 12:54 AM) *
Yes, they were running. I did note SKM's excellent post and that Managhi blood was less than 1% wink.gif I was entirely wrong on his phenotype smile.gif



Not so fast Liz, we are NOT done yet with mangante. See my post to SKM now.

Hansi
HLM
QUOTE (SKM @ Mar 27 2012, 09:32 PM) *
There is a danger in jumping to conclusions about strains by looking at phenotype, especially when these have been misinterpreted in the west for so long anyway.

As it happens, Manganate has a miniscule amount of Managhi blood in his 5-generation pedigree - it comes only through 2 crosses to Burkeguy in the 5th generation. Burkeguy (1899 chestnut) traces on the dam's side to Ferha, bay mare imported to France in 1876, her sire a Kehailan Abu Junoob and her dam a Maneghiah. Having said that, on Burkeguy's 5 generation pedigree the only recorded Managhi blood is the 50% from Ferha herself, no other horse in his pedigree is of this strain, so Burkeguy himself has only 6.25% recorded Managhi strain in his pedigree, all the rest is either not recorded, or Seglawi Jedran, or Jelfan, or Kehailan Abu Junoob, or Hamdani. By my reckoning, that gives Manganate just 0.390% Managhi strain in his 5-generation pedigree.

So now let's take a closer look at Manganate's pedigree. I am sure it is up on allbreedpedigree for those who want to take a look. First of all, he is quite inbred. He has 3 crosses to Norniz, 4 to Denouste, 2 to Djebel Mousa, 5 to Latif, 4 to Djaima, 3 to Dragomme, 2 to Telmese, 2 to Burkeguy, 2 to Mekine, 2 to Khouri and 2 to Dame Tartine, all within five generations.
Now let's look at the strains. I won't put it for all the mares as obviously their sons inherited the strains so it is easy to follow if I just put in the stallions. Strain spellings of the OA imports are mostly from the early French studbooks (phonetic Arabic to French).

Manganate: Strain not recorded (family of Em-Arkoub). Em-Arkoub was a bay mare imported to France from Syria in 1880, her sire was recorded in the French Stud Book as "Abou-Arkoub, des tribus Anaze". Abu-Argub is a Kehailan substrain.
Saint Laurent: (Kehailan) Jelfan El Ghannam (Arca)
Baroud II: Hadban (Balkis)
Dragon: Seglawi (Warda)
Denouste: Seglawi Mukhalladi (Merjane)
Norniz: (Kehailan) Jelfan El Ghannam (Arca) (Note: Same strain as Amica (1927), to whom he was bred to produce Madou, dam of Saint Laurent).
Latif (OA, 1903): Strain not recorded. Sire a Hamdani El Samra (or Hamdani Simri) of the El S'baa tribe. Dam's strain not recorded, she was from the El Fedaan tribe.
Djebel: Seglawi (Warda)
Djebel Mousa: Seglawi (Warda)
Nedjanor: Hamdani El Sbaa (Zulma)
Khouri (OA): Strain not recorded. Sire an Abeyan-Chraq (or Abeyan Sharraq), dam from the Fedaan tribe
Sinai: Seglawi (Warda)
Telmese (OA, 1903): Kehailan Ajuz (from the Shammar tribe)
Burkeguy: Managhi (Ferha)
Flibustier: Strain Not Recorded (family of Aissa)
Ghalabawi (OA, 1906): Sire: a Hamdani-El-Samri; Dam: an Abia Charraq
Abadir: Hamdani (Zenab)

As for his phenotype - take a look on the internet for photos of Denouste (remembering Manganate has 4 crosses to him) and Latif (OA) (5 crosses), and the various others. Whatever the gossips say about 'outside' blood - on phenotype he looks you would expect him to look when you have seen what his ancestors looked like.



Dear SKM

In my happiness to correct some of my data thanks to you, I forgot to ask another question and mention the following:

Please look at French Stud Book Vol. 12/P103 "MEKE" (1883)- de race Hamdani-Semri- imported to France in 1890
from Arabia.
It stated : Son pere (sire) de race Hamdani- Sa mere (dam) de race Kouheila-Manaqui.
Meke would have to adopt his dam's strain, right?- He is the sire of Mekine (1894). and she the dam of Nejma (`1907) by Burkeguy.
Now of course the percentage is thrown a bit out of balance, I think..

Of course I was always wondering if the questionable ancestors Adjali and Emmon my be had something to do with some folks thinking of some impurity, rather than a TB or Anglo.. Until we clear these 2 names, we have to wait.I think I also think that Persia did import some TB's from Uk and possibly from France during the 19th century.

Now go to Vol.16/P130- "Latif" (1903) born in Orient-Import France in 1909.
Son pere (sire) Hamdani-El Samra, de la tribu El Sabaa.-San mere (Dam) de la tribu El Fadaan.
I always thought the Fedaans were in Syria, which would make import from Orient questionabel.
While the El sabaa is now the oldest Kingdom in the ME, namely Kuwait, and could have at one time
come from another ME country- because I dont think they came from Persia. However I stand corrected if anybody has better information.

As you can see how confusing matters can get with the areas/countries of the original french imports?


isnt research wonderful??? I LOVE IT AND IT KEEPS MY BRAIN GOING. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Please let me know what you think. Thanks kindly

Hansi
.
SKM
Hansi - I am no expert but as far as I can see, in the pedigree of Mekine (1894) you have the Hamdani stallion El Nimr (OA) and the Jelfet El Ghannam mare Arca (OA) who produced her dam Amushed (1889). Meke, the sire of Mekine, is calculated as 50% Managhi for the purposes of this exercise (although of course who knows, he too may have had very little Managhi blood in reality as his dam's sire could have been of another strain. And the same goes for Ferha too!). Through Mekine's daughter Nejmah (1907), through down to Manganate, this only brings another 1.56% Managhi strain giving a negligible total of 1.95% to Manganate. Like you, I am happy to stand corrected.

The 'impurity' accusations against Manganate are from a much later period, implying the falsification of records for one or more horses in his pedigree which were born round about the 1920s-1930s. I do not know which ones were being accused.

As for Latif - actually "L'Orient" was the French term for the Middle East and includes Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt etcetera. I am almost certain Latif originally came from Syria, at any rate his sire and dam did. This is where a lot of the official French government purchasing expeditions did their searching and buying. Although in the case of Latif, he was in fact purchased from Egypt. You can find details on his purchase and a photo of him, among others, here:
http://daughterofthewind.org/the-1909-dese...orts-to-france/

In the first French Stud Book (similar to GSB) there were 303 Arab stallions and 134 mares listed, nearly all imported from the middle east. Here is another interesting piece at the same blog. Sadly, Joe Achcar passed away, I believe last year. http://daughterofthewind.org/louis-damoiseau/

If you are really interested in learning about the phenotype of French arabians in racing lines, go to this website and scroll down about half way, you will find a reproduced article (in French) by the expert on French Arabian breeding, Nicole de Blomac, from 2002. She has some interesting things to say about how and why the "type" of French Arabians changed over the generations and why some people questioned their purity. (Google translate is useful, sometimes!)
http://cheval-arabe.goodbb.net/t1242-rubri...ace-anglo-arabe

The early French stud books differentiated breeds very carefully, noting them as 'Arabes' (Arabians), 'Persans' (horses from Persia), and 'Muscats' (horses from Oman) respectively. France imported a total of 230 Arabian mares and 720 Arabian stallions up to 1945 - of these, some also went to the French colonies of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia which all had State Studs.
HLM
QUOTE (SKM @ Mar 28 2012, 11:17 AM) *
Hansi - I am no expert but as far as I can see, in the pedigree of Mekine (1894) you have the Hamdani stallion El Nimr (OA) and the Jelfet El Ghannam mare Arca (OA) who produced her dam Amushed (1889). Meke, the sire of Mekine, is calculated as 50% Managhi for the purposes of this exercise (although of course who knows, he too may have had very little Managhi blood in reality as his dam's sire could have been of another strain. And the same goes for Ferha too!). Through Mekine's daughter Nejmah (1907), through down to Manganate, this only brings another 1.56% Managhi strain giving a negligible total of 1.95% to Manganate. Like you, I am happy to stand corrected.

The 'impurity' accusations against Manganate are from a much later period, implying the falsification of records for one or more horses in his pedigree which were born round about the 1920s-1930s. I do not know which ones were being accused.

As for Latif - actually "L'Orient" was the French term for the Middle East and includes Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt etcetera. I am almost certain Latif originally came from Syria, at any rate his sire and dam did. This is where a lot of the official French government purchasing expeditions did their searching and buying. Although in the case of Latif, he was in fact purchased from Egypt. You can find details on his purchase and a photo of him, among others, here:
http://daughterofthewind.org/the-1909-dese...orts-to-france/

In the first French Stud Book (similar to GSB) there were 303 Arab stallions and 134 mares listed, nearly all imported from the middle east. Here is another interesting piece at the same blog. Sadly, Joe Achcar passed away, I believe last year. http://daughterofthewind.org/louis-damoiseau/

If you are really interested in learning about the phenotype of French arabians in racing lines, go to this website and scroll down about half way, you will find a reproduced article (in French) by the expert on French Arabian breeding, Nicole de Blomac, from 2002. She has some interesting things to say about how and why the "type" of French Arabians changed over the generations and why some people questioned their purity. (Google translate is useful, sometimes!)
http://cheval-arabe.goodbb.net/t1242-rubri...ace-anglo-arabe

The early French stud books differentiated breeds very carefully, noting them as 'Arabes' (Arabians), 'Persans' (horses from Persia), and 'Muscats' (horses from Oman) respectively. France imported a total of 230 Arabian mares and 720 Arabian stallions up to 1945 - of these, some also went to the French colonies of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia which all had State Studs.



Dear SKM

thank you, again I learned a lot. For instance I was taught that "Orient" means east of Istanbul (Constantinopel) (the midle of the globe) and therefore considered the nearest, namely Iran and Turkey as the origin. My confusion was helped that the french also specify" from Arabia" and that to me means the Midle East. This inconsistency can lead to confusion, at least on my part.

Now, as "L' Orient" means the middle east, it helps me with many entries I have and throws a different light on some subjects.It's amsazing how much we can learn in just a few minutes eh.

I dont understand why anybody wants to falsifiy records in the 1920-1930, for what reason, eh. Posisbly for racing
purposes giving wrong names of parents to a horse to enhance its value, etc?
Mind you we many registered Arabians carrying foreign blood by actual records. I guess you know that.

Thanks again, I am most grateful to you.

Take care
Hansi




2mntn
QUOTE (orient arabians @ Mar 27 2012, 08:21 AM) *
I must say that french racing arabians have discutable bloodlines, no purist would like to use them.. we agree that some anglo-arabian blood had been mixte even if no stud-book would say so..
Is this looking like an arabian ?

Michčle


Click to view attachment

Well, my two-cents on this subject is this. I don't consider horses like this one to be my competition. I could be 100% wrong, but the hindquarter on this horse betrays Thoroughbred blood. I am not competing against TB's. This is not to say that I couldn't, or wouldn't admire a horse like this one. I just consider my horses to be in a different ball park.
MHuprich
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 28 2012, 12:15 PM) *
Click to view attachment

Well, my two-cents on this subject is this. I don't consider horses like this one to be my competition. I could be 100% wrong, but the hindquarter on this horse betrays Thoroughbred blood. I am not competing against TB's. This is not to say that I couldn't, or wouldn't admire a horse like this one. I just consider my horses to be in a different ball park.


I'm with Ray on this. I could admire this like I do warmbloods and other breeds of horses, but it's not what I'm breeding.
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Mar 28 2012, 11:00 AM) *
I'm with Ray on this. I could admire this like I do warmbloods and other breeds of horses, but it's not what I'm breeding.

Ditto.........
SKM
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 28 2012, 04:15 PM) *
Click to view attachment

Well, my two-cents on this subject is this. I don't consider horses like this one to be my competition. I could be 100% wrong, but the hindquarter on this horse betrays Thoroughbred blood. I am not competing against TB's. This is not to say that I couldn't, or wouldn't admire a horse like this one. I just consider my horses to be in a different ball park.


My two cents worth are that I dont agree it necessarily 'betrays TB blood'. Yes it could do, but then again, it also could not. As a highly respected scientist once said to me: "An elephant has big ears, but not everything with big ears is an elephant". What it does betray is nigh on 100 years of breeding to race over distances suitable for racecourses and gamblers, but not suitable for Arabians. For me it is fascinating to see a modern 'evolution' by selective breeding almost replicating that which created the TB in the first place. See below for what may be an exlpanation as to how this came to pass. Selective breeding has changed the 'look' of many domestic animals in a far quicker time frame than that. Sure, someone somewhere along the line some 80 or 90 years ago may have used an Anglo or a Thoroughbred stallion but registered the horse as being by an Arab, to 'cheat' for racing - we will never know for sure. But the world is a big place and there is room for every different 'type' of Arabian according to what each country and individual breeder likes and enjoys. There are plenty of breeders in France who breed typey but still athletic Arabians of other bloodlines, for showing, endurance, and leisure riding. Last year France produced nearly 1,800 registered purebred foals - compare that to less than 4,000 now in USA - and just as in USA, they come in all shapes and sizes and from all different bloodlines. Personally, I celebrate them all.

Nicole de Bomarc writes this - loose translation - in her article (from 2002) about the influence of Arabians on French Anglo-Arab breeding. Incidentally, the Anglo-Arab as a breed was created by the French in the mid 1800's.
"Why is the French Arabian, which was so well researched by so many breeders in the 1920s and 1930s and which has served the Anglo-Arab so well, now being contested by certain people? Because the selection which was imposed on them has transformed them. Horses in our country were originally for military use or for practical service. Around 1830 the horse had also become, for a certain elite, a race horse, because the racecourse was the only available field of selection. For the last 20 years, the horse in our country has become a horse for sport and for pleasure. The Arabian more than all the horse breeds has had to submit to this evolution, and also so has the Anglo-Arab. Because of the influence that the racecourse and its rules and training for flat racing will have, based on the Arabian families which are the foundation of the big stud farms breeding racing Anglo-Arabs, it is at the same time both beneficial and dangerous.
Beneficial because of the affirmation of generation on generation of quality, dangerous because of the alteration of type and conformation, and this is because a fundamental error was made by those responsible for breeding for racing, from the year 1895 onwards. In effect, the distances imposed on flat races for the races reserved for Arabians are identical to those imposed on Anglo-Arabs and which were copied from those for Thoroughbreds. And this was a refusal to acknowledge the special uniqueness of the Arabian. The Arabian is born a runner, it is capable of maximum speed over very short race distances (1200 to 1400 metres) and of great endurance over long race distances (4000 to 7000 metres). To therefore impose on them a racing distance of 1800 to 2400 metres was to deny their ancestral qualities, and to turn our backs on all the previous history of selection. To put them into a training and selection system which was not their own, was also to risk affecting their conformation, type, breed characteristics and above all their temperament.
This evolution will be effective in 3 generations and Denouste is the most well known example. Why be surprised now, when one remembers that his dam, as well as his 2nd and 3rd dams, had figured with success on the racecourse, as did all their sisters, and that all were progeny of the dams of winners. " END QUOTE
MHuprich
I have seen MANY purebred arabians that look similar and that are good racehorses over the shorter distances. However, I am not breeding racehorses,.
HLM
QUOTE (SKM @ Mar 28 2012, 08:39 PM) *
My two cents worth are that I dont agree it necessarily 'betrays TB blood'. Yes it could do, but then again, it also could not. As a highly respected scientist once said to me: "An elephant has big ears, but not everything with big ears is an elephant". What it does betray is nigh on 100 years of breeding to race over distances suitable for racecourses and gamblers, but not suitable for Arabians. For me it is fascinating to see a modern 'evolution' by selective breeding almost replicating that which created the TB in the first place. See below for what may be an exlpanation as to how this came to pass. Selective breeding has changed the 'look' of many domestic animals in a far quicker time frame than that. Sure, someone somewhere along the line some 80 or 90 years ago may have used an Anglo or a Thoroughbred stallion but registered the horse as being by an Arab, to 'cheat' for racing - we will never know for sure. But the world is a big place and there is room for every different 'type' of Arabian according to what each country and individual breeder likes and enjoys. There are plenty of breeders in France who breed typey but still athletic Arabians of other bloodlines, for showing, endurance, and leisure riding. Last year France produced nearly 1,800 registered purebred foals - compare that to less than 4,000 now in USA - and just as in USA, they come in all shapes and sizes and from all different bloodlines. Personally, I celebrate them all.

Nicole de Bomarc writes this - loose translation - in her article (from 2002) about the influence of Arabians on French Anglo-Arab breeding. Incidentally, the Anglo-Arab as a breed was created by the French in the mid 1800's.
"Why is the French Arabian, which was so well researched by so many breeders in the 1920s and 1930s and which has served the Anglo-Arab so well, now being contested by certain people? Because the selection which was imposed on them has transformed them. Horses in our country were originally for military use or for practical service. Around 1830 the horse had also become, for a certain elite, a race horse, because the racecourse was the only available field of selection. For the last 20 years, the horse in our country has become a horse for sport and for pleasure. The Arabian more than all the horse breeds has had to submit to this evolution, and also so has the Anglo-Arab. Because of the influence that the racecourse and its rules and training for flat racing will have, based on the Arabian families which are the foundation of the big stud farms breeding racing Anglo-Arabs, it is at the same time both beneficial and dangerous.
Beneficial because of the affirmation of generation on generation of quality, dangerous because of the alteration of type and conformation, and this is because a fundamental error was made by those responsible for breeding for racing, from the year 1895 onwards. In effect, the distances imposed on flat races for the races reserved for Arabians are identical to those imposed on Anglo-Arabs and which were copied from those for Thoroughbreds. And this was a refusal to acknowledge the special uniqueness of the Arabian. The Arabian is born a runner, it is capable of maximum speed over very short race distances (1200 to 1400 metres) and of great endurance over long race distances (4000 to 7000 metres). To therefore impose on them a racing distance of 1800 to 2400 metres was to deny their ancestral qualities, and to turn our backs on all the previous history of selection. To put them into a training and selection system which was not their own, was also to risk affecting their conformation, type, breed characteristics and above all their temperament.
This evolution will be effective in 3 generations and Denouste is the most well known example. Why be surprised now, when one remembers that his dam, as well as his 2nd and 3rd dams, had figured with success on the racecourse, as did all their sisters, and that all were progeny of the dams of winners. " END QUOTE



thank you again SKM for your explicite post.

Actually this topic was how do we know our competitors, so that we can compete. It was not asked if we like or dislike the type or types, it was how to stand up to them in market condition and competition.
They are doing very well, are we I am asking our posters here.?

I feel that some day that halter craze will stop and people like in the past centuries want a horse to ride, etc.
May be our upcoming generation will look after that.
That of course does not mean the sportshorse has to be ugly. I dont consider Serenity Habib, his brothers or dam ugly, nor Serenity Sonbolah I personally rode through and over anything, so to speak, as I did with many of our horses.
Many were also halter champions or even most classics some. I saw verious French Arabians in the UAE etc which were beautiful.

What I really meant to bring forth is, that SEs can be formidle competitors also against the Mangante bloodlines.

you mendtioned the distance of racing. I found that my racers warmed up to 5 to 6th furlong and than started running and after a mile could another two.Many of these SEs from particular bloodlines got what it takes.
However, training has a lot to do with it, and a 3year old SE one better be careful to not start to early. They mature at about age 12, start coming into their own at about age 7, or should I say when more stringenous work can be done and the mind is less playfull . At least I refer to mine. The egyptian bred, top sired with an SE were different again.
they matured faster, but were not as fast as my Ses.

Therefore I guess, each to its own

Take care
Hansi


.
Nadj al Nur
I agree that the horse pictured could very well be a purebred, but he is of a different type than most arabian horse breeders want to breed. Doesn't make him any less a good horse. Nobody is saying that, however, the only people who could be considered to be in competion of any sort with that "type" of horse would be those who breed only for racing. I am not sure what that percentage would be, but it would be pretty small. ........I think that most people still want to breed for a very versatile horse, that could do well in any discipline, if given the right training.
2mntn
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 28 2012, 01:15 PM) *
thank you again SKM for your explicite post.

Actually this topic was how do we know our competitors, so that we can compete. It was not asked if we like or dislike the type or types, it was how to stand up to them in market condition and competition.
They are doing very well, are we I am asking our posters here.?

I feel that some day that halter craze will stop and people like in the past centuries want a horse to ride, etc.
May be our upcoming generation will look after that.
That of course does not mean the sportshorse has to be ugly. I dont consider Serenity Habib, his brothers or dam ugly, nor Serenity Sonbolah I personally rode through and over anything, so to speak, as I did with many of our horses.
Many were also halter champions or even most classics some. I saw verious French Arabians in the UAE etc which were beautiful.

What I really meant to bring forth is, that SEs can be formidle competitors also against the Mangante bloodlines.

you mendtioned the distance of racing. I found that my racers warmed up to 5 to 6th furlong and than started running and after a mile could another two.Many of these SEs from particular bloodlines got what it takes.
However, training has a lot to do with it, and a 3year old SE one better be careful to not start to early. They mature at about age 12, start coming into their own at about age 7, or should I say when more stringenous work can be done and the mind is less playfull . At least I refer to mine. The egyptian bred, top sired with an SE were different again.
they matured faster, but were not as fast as my Ses.

Therefore I guess, each to its own

Take care
Hansi


.


Hi Hansi,

Do you know the times this horse, Maganate, turned in? If so, how do they compare with Serenity Mamlouk?
diane
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 29 2012, 02:15 AM) *
Click to view attachment

Well, my two-cents on this subject is this. I don't consider horses like this one to be my competition. I could be 100% wrong, but the hindquarter on this horse betrays Thoroughbred blood. I am not competing against TB's. This is not to say that I couldn't, or wouldn't admire a horse like this one. I just consider my horses to be in a different ball park.

...and TBs come via a great deal of Arabian blood. Just a different breeding emphasis. It's documented that some French Arabians are bred for racing. So that style of hindquarter might not be mutually exclusive?

diane
QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 29 2012, 05:15 AM) *
Actually this topic was how do we know our competitors, so that we can compete. It was not asked if we like or dislike the type or types, it was how to stand up to them in market condition and competition.


Personally, competition isn't a driver for me.

But I have enjoyed the posts - thanks everyone.
Fairfax
The Poles and Russians have also raced their Arabians for many generations. Skrypt, Russian, does tend to look TB'y however Witraz most certainly does not.

Interesting that the French Arabs have morphed into "another type" so dramatically

Roxanne Rogers has written extensively about the French Arabs. She owned a Forta son, Falat and her Dad, Allan showed the FIRST double national champion halter mare...Arwistawa
Teymur B
Why the French Arabian's look's so different as a Polish, Russian or Turkish Arabian Purebred Racehorses? blink.gif unsure.gif huh.gif

If they breed only on racing performance, the Type is other's, yes, but that has nothing to do with Muniqi blood.

As an example:
A Turkish Arabian breeding stallion, a Muniqi, successful race horse and producer of racehorses.
He look's Arabian more as a French Arabian
orient arabians
QUOTE (Teymur B @ Mar 29 2012, 07:07 AM) *
Why the French Arabian's look's so different as a Polish, Russian or Turkish Arabian Purebred Racehorses? blink.gif unsure.gif huh.gif

If they breed only on racing performance, the Type is other's, yes, but that has nothing to do with Muniqi blood.

As an example:
A Turkish Arabian breeding stallion, a Muniqi, successful race horse and producer of racehorses.
He look's Arabian more as a French Arabian



just because in the seventy some stallions of anglo were used -we can say at night - and inbreeding kept on the size and look... sorry Hansi if you don't want to beleive it, but I am an old french breeder and I saw it done....racing is money, if your horse is good you get money, if he is bad you loose money, no other consideration... arabians on that time were racing with anglo (25% usually) and did not have the speed on short race, that all... all the french breeders know about that but it was 40 years ago... so don't try to found from where it comes in the pedigree. ... it was just behind the barn !

Michčle
Caryn Rogosky
QUOTE (orient arabians @ Mar 29 2012, 10:42 AM) *
just because in the seventy some stallions of anglo were used -we can say at night - and inbreeding kept on the size and look... sorry Hansi if you don't want to beleive it, but I am an old french breeder and I saw it done....racing is money, if your horse is good you get money, if he is bad you loose money, no other consideration... arabians on that time were racing with anglo (25% usually) and did not have the speed on short race, that all... all the french breeders know about that but it was 40 years ago... so don't try to found from where it comes in the pedigree. ... it was just behind the barn !

Michčle


Very interesting post, Michele, thank you for your frank honesty. I know very little about the French Arabian bloodlines or the French racing situation, so am finding the information being shared here to be very educational. One point that really jumps out is the reaffirmation that prior to bloodtyping and/or DNA testing for registration, relying exclusively upon pedigree information, or data in general, to "prove" purity is not possibe -- this requires a leap of faith. Data on the pre-testing horses represents only what someone, somewhere recorded...right or wrong.

Evolution by adaptation, from what I understand, can occur faster than we might imagine but three generations in horses seems very fast to me. Also, while organisms can undergo phenotype changes rather quickly as a result of adaptation, it takes much longer for those traits to become fixed or set. It would seem that a study of whether or not an individual who is strongly "off type" consistently reproduces his/her own modified phenotype consistently, and whether or not that particular phenotype is then passed on consistently from generation to generation, would provide significant insight on his/her actual lineage.
HLM
QUOTE (orient arabians @ Mar 29 2012, 10:42 AM) *
just because in the seventy some stallions of anglo were used -we can say at night - and inbreeding kept on the size and look... sorry Hansi if you don't want to beleive it, but I am an old french breeder and I saw it done....racing is money, if your horse is good you get money, if he is bad you loose money, no other consideration... arabians on that time were racing with anglo (25% usually) and did not have the speed on short race, that all... all the french breeders know about that but it was 40 years ago... so don't try to found from where it comes in the pedigree. ... it was just behind the barn !

Michčle



Dear Michelle
I appreciate your opinion and knowledge. I have not seen it, cant prove it and photos are not always that good or too good. I have seen georgeous photos and when I saw the horse, there was hardly any resemblance, and visa versa.

I also found that Arabians - Non Asils- bred for speed are also exremely versitile, as are most of the Asils.
Bu that goes for the TBS and Anglos as well, often excelling in dressage and jumping,3-day eventing, hunting etc. like the famous "Halla" under Winkler time ago.I bred quite a few in my lifetime and can attest to it. Never had a TB stud standing, we here in Florida take the mares to the stud and bring her back home. But I bred excellent Anglos here and in Canada, males were gelded quickly. right now I have a yearling Anglo filly which would blow your mind.

I also know that whatever is competing well is wanted by buyers, and to be competive and market we must not overlook this.

I thought that some people want to know why they have trouble marketing their horses or even cant give them away.
That not just happened now due to the economy, that happened already years ago. I always feel one should try to
find the motive- on anything- to get a better Idea.

Just my opinion
Hansi
HLM
QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 29 2012, 01:39 AM) *
Hi Hansi,

Do you know the times this horse, Maganate, turned in? If so, how do they compare with Serenity Mamlouk?



No I dont Ray, so have no comparrison. Speed also depends often on the tracks a horse runs and/or it condition.

Hansi
Teymur B
Probably the largest and most successful private Breeder in Turkey, Mr. Kaya, imported stallions from French lines.

With this new mix, the old Pure-Turkish Asil lines will go lost. mad.gif

example: The French "Remo" (Turan)

Pedigree: http://new.ykk.gov.tr/ykkeng/Pedigri.aspx?...ion&xOlTar= . .
Teymur B
and also the French: Sultan de Faust
In France, for example Arabs are race bred at the speed are hard to beat, but hardly look like Arabs, and are therefore seen by many breeders with skepticism.
Even in Turkey, Arabs are used in open races. The horses I saw there, are very typey, as for example the French racing Arabians.
http://new.ykk.gov.tr/ykkeng/Pedigri.aspx?...ion&xOlTar= . .
Teymur B
In Turkey they breed too after only racing performance, the most successful of the three State Studs is Sultansuyu in Maltaya.

The imported Polish Stallion "Emael", which should improve the type of the horses, there remained little used, he left 73 Offspring in Sultansuyu, because he has a weak back - it is rather on the sires with good performance and excellent foundation for it, unfortunately, have some weaknesses in the type.
Overall, the population of the Turkish Arab is relatively closed.
It will be played over 250 races per year, about 400 horses currently in training.
There are 225 registered breeders.
The number of shows per year 5, in contrast to the races highlights the focus of the discipline.

This is the Polish Stallion Emael, with hi's absolutly weak back blink.gif

http://new.ykk.gov.tr/ykkeng/Pedigri.aspx?...lion&xOlTar
SKM
Teymur B - Regarding Emael - I really feel it is not fair to always be so critical of non-Turkish stallions even though your intentions, to defend and promote the superb Turkish Arabians, are understood and are good. First of all - when were those photos taken? Emael was born in 1988 so, if he is still alive (?) he would be 24 now. The soft back is not unusual in Palas and Aswan offspring. Having said that - Emael did not have a weak back as a young horse, I remember him well, I first saw him as a yearling in 1989 and saw him win the Europa Cup in 1992. His dam was the great-moving and lovely deep bodied strong-backed flea-bitten grey mare Ejnia, herself a brave racehorse and Stakes winner (Bask Stakes) who was a great favourite of all visitors to the Polish shows and stud visits for good reason - a truly excellent mare. Emael - who as I recall was not a particularly tall horse - won the Polish Derby, Produce Stakes, Janow Stakes and Europa Stakes (international) in 1992 to be named Polish Racehorse of the Year, along with 5 other Stakes races in other years - which means he was no slouch on the racecourse. You can see most of his big races on You tube. His strain is Kehailan Moradi, his female line traces to the desert-bred mare Sahara, imported in 1845.

He was first exported to Town & Country Farms in USA (major breeders of racing Arabians) from Poland in 1994, he ran twice in America, and was used at stud there. His race record is 5/23 (12-3-3) of those wins one was a classic (Polish Derby) + 8 Stakes Races. He was then was purchased from USA by the Turkish Jockey Club together with a number of excellent horses, including mares of the best American/Polish racing lines in 1999. So yes - maybe he has a soft back - but he had some other great and positive attributes, one of which you cannot see from the outside was his brave heart and fighting spirit and will to win on the racecourse. Of his 15 foals in America, 10 have race records of which 6 were winners (some multiple winners and stakes winners/placed), another 3 were placed, and several have been exported to major race-breeding farms elsewhere. According to the TJK website, of 39 progeny to race in Turkey, 31 are winners, having taken part in 1,374 races, winning a combined total of 183 races, with 127 second places, 113 third places and 98 fourth places. That's a winning strike rate of 13% which in a country with such competitive racing, is really not that bad! ( as a comparison, one of your best sires ÖZGÜN has 14% winners from 108 runners of which 87 are winners - from a total of 3,994 races they garnered 593 wins). So do please, give credit where it is due to Emael.

Also - don't be so afraid of outside blood, sometimes it is vital to refresh a closed gene pool, especially when those imported stallions become further back in the pedigrees, perhaps as broodmare sires, later on. The Arabian is a truly international breed. Turkey has easily enough breeders and enough foals born per year for everyone to go their own way in their breeding programmes, there will always be those who stay entirely within Turkish lines without outcrossing and so long as you have that, especially at the State Studs, there really is no danger. What IS needed in Turkey is the development of alternative uses for Arabians than racing, for example endurance, pleasure riding and so on. Perhaps even some showing! I often wonder, and maybe you know, what happens to a lot of the horses that are not good enough to be used for breeding - especially the males - when then finally finish their long racing careers, or if they sustain injuries and have to stop racing when younger but can be treated and become sound again for other uses - perhaps you could enlighten us?

You also mentioned there are 250 races a year in Turkey with about 400 horses in training. Do you mean race days, or individual races? The latest information I have from Turkey is that in the year 2010 there were 1,808 individual races for Arabians in Turkey, sharing prize money of 41 million US dollars with an additional 7.7 million US dollars in breeders premiums. In 2011 the number of races increased to 1,900. There are certainly far more than 400 horses in training - currently 2,519 Arabians are listed on the TJK website with handicap ratings and around 2,000 horses on average are in training each year. I am lucky enough to have visited all the Turkish State Studs more than once, and attended the races in Izmir and in Istanbul which was tremendous fun. Unfortunately I did not win the Pick 6! Anyway - you have great horses and great racing in Turkey and I feel sure that a sprinkle of outside blood will do no harm in the long term.
SKM
QUOTE (Teymur B @ Mar 29 2012, 05:06 PM) *
Probably the largest and most successful private Breeder in Turkey, Mr. Kaya, imported stallions from French lines.

With this new mix, the old Pure-Turkish Asil lines will go lost. mad.gif

example: The French "Remo" (Turan)

Pedigree: http://new.ykk.gov.tr/ykkeng/Pedigri.aspx?...ion&xOlTar= . .


Remo (Turan) is not French. For a start, he was bred in Austria. He has precisely one French-bred grand-sire, Manganate, apart from that he has mostly Polish, with some Spanish, a touch of British and a dash of Egyptian and Marbach. If you are going to criticize, at least get your facts right. And he looks like a really nice upstanding horse.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.