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rylolin
Hello All,

I have a few questions I would like to hear answers on from other breeders. I am curious about marketing and sales outcomes so please feel free to share beyond these questions if you have ideas, experiences, or recommendations that you think would benefit other breeders. And thanks up front for sharing!

How many horses have you sold in the last 12 - 24 mos.?

How are you advertising or promoting your sales prospects?

Do you have an advertising budget?

Do you have a clear idea of how much you have invested in your sales prospect before you price them?

How do you decide on your pricing?

What public advertising venues do you routinely use?

How many of these advertising choices do you use for each prospect?

Can you describe the demographics of your buyers (in the last 12-24 mos.)?

How did your buyers find you and/or your sales prospects?

Do you have any generalizations about your marketing or your buyers to share with us?

Do you have repeat clients?

Which of these stages/ages do you focus on selling: inutero/weanling/under-saddle/proven show horse/proven breeder?

I am sure there are other questions that I am missing so everyone feel free to jump in with other questions you might have too.

Cordially,
Linda
rylolin

In case you'd rather do this privately, you can send me a message or via my email at crystalmeadowsfarm@yahoo.com. Details of pm or email will be kept confidential if you like. This is just to gather some general knowledge about what people are doing that is successful or not successful in today's market. I'm hoping that we may all be able to garner some wisdom from other breeders here!

Cordially,
Linda
mckulley1
I'll try to answer your questions as a breeder....and not as a Marketing Agent.


How many horses have you sold in the last 12 - 24 mos.? In the last 24 months I have marketed three horses and sold two of them while leasing one of them. This follows how I was marketing them.

How are you advertising or promoting your sales prospects? Mostly on the Net these days. Some print ads, but very minimal and focused regionally.

Do you have an advertising budget? Yes, a little as I can spend.

Do you have a clear idea of how much you have invested in your sales prospect before you price them? Yes.

How do you decide on your pricing? I price mine in accordance with their quality and the market. Just because I am small, does not mean that my high quality horses should be sold for peanuts though. Quality is quality.

What public advertising venues do you routinely use? Class "A" shows, regional version of the Equine Journal, the Internet

How many of these advertising choices do you use for each prospect? As many as I know that provide consistent results.

Can you describe the demographics of your buyers (in the last 12-24 mos.)? Interestingly enough, all buyers/lessee's were female in the 38-54 age range.

How did your buyers find you and/or your sales prospects? Two were clients through my Marketing program (I had sold horses for them in the past) and one was a repeat Buyer.

Do you have any generalizations about your marketing or your buyers to share with us? Good quality video and photos are a MUST!

Do you have repeat clients? !! YES !!

Which of these stages/ages do you focus on selling: inutero/weanling/under-saddle/proven show horse/proven breeder? Generally, it's young stock and I try to have them sold some time between birth and 2yo.
rylolin
QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Apr 14 2012, 12:03 PM) *
I'll try to answer your questions as a breeder....and not as a Marketing Agent.


How many horses have you sold in the last 12 - 24 mos.? In the last 24 months I have marketed three horses and sold two of them while leasing one of them. This follows how I was marketing them.

How are you advertising or promoting your sales prospects? Mostly on the Net these days. Some print ads, but very minimal and focused regionally.

Do you have an advertising budget? Yes, a little as I can spend.

Do you have a clear idea of how much you have invested in your sales prospect before you price them? Yes.

How do you decide on your pricing? I price mine in accordance with their quality and the market. Just because I am small, does not mean that my high quality horses should be sold for peanuts though. Quality is quality.

What public advertising venues do you routinely use? Class "A" shows, regional version of the Equine Journal, the Internet

How many of these advertising choices do you use for each prospect? As many as I know that provide consistent results.

Can you describe the demographics of your buyers (in the last 12-24 mos.)? Interestingly enough, all buyers/lessee's were female in the 38-54 age range.

How did your buyers find you and/or your sales prospects? Two were clients through my Marketing program (I had sold horses for them in the past) and one was a repeat Buyer.

Do you have any generalizations about your marketing or your buyers to share with us? Good quality video and photos are a MUST!

Do you have repeat clients? !! YES !!

Which of these stages/ages do you focus on selling: inutero/weanling/under-saddle/proven show horse/proven breeder? Generally, it's young stock and I try to have them sold some time between birth and 2yo.



Thanks Amanda for answering - all of this is good info for us to think about. I admire your clarity on this subject and as always I really admire what you are producing. One other question I thought of for you, is there a way in which you envision the ideal home for your horse and then focus on marketing to who that ideal buyer might be? Or, is your initial approach (i.e. ad venues/mail-outs/etc.) the same for each of your horses?

Thanks for your input!

Cordially,
Linda
mckulley1
Thank you for the compliment.

Again, discussing my own horses.....I think it completely depends on the horse. If I have a broodmare over the age of 12 I won't bother utilizing international advertising venues....because the chance of exporting them is very minimal. It also depends on the interested buyer...their plans for the horse. If it doesn't fit into what I want the horse to be doing, then I don't allow them to pursue the purchase.
HLM
QUOTE (rylolin @ Apr 13 2012, 06:51 PM) *
Hello All,

I have a few questions I would like to hear answers on from other breeders. I am curious about marketing and sales outcomes so please feel free to share beyond these questions if you have ideas, experiences, or recommendations that you think would benefit other breeders. And thanks up front for sharing!

How many horses have you sold in the last 12 - 24 mos.?

How are you advertising or promoting your sales prospects?

Do you have an advertising budget?

Do you have a clear idea of how much you have invested in your sales prospect before you price them?

How do you decide on your pricing?

What public advertising venues do you routinely use?

How many of these advertising choices do you use for each prospect?

Can you describe the demographics of your buyers (in the last 12-24 mos.)?

How did your buyers find you and/or your sales prospects?

Do you have any generalizations about your marketing or your buyers to share with us?

Do you have repeat clients?

Which of these stages/ages do you focus on selling: inutero/weanling/under-saddle/proven show horse/proven breeder?

I am sure there are other questions that I am missing so everyone feel free to jump in with other questions you might have too.

Cordially,
Linda



Dear Linda

I mean you no disrespect, however your questions tresspass on business privacy, not everybody wishes to share.
Already do we have unethical business people among us, and dont need more.

thank you for trying to help.

Hansi

rylolin
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 14 2012, 09:33 PM) *
Dear Linda

I mean you no disrespect, however your questions tresspass on business privacy, not everybody wishes to share.
Already do we have unethical business people among us, and dont need more.

thank you for trying to help.

Hansi



Hi Hansi,

Thanks for your thoughts Hansi. I have heard from a few people privately. My goal is to gather general information as research so not asking for very specific info about their business practices and clients - not so different from other kinds of research.

It seems to be the "elephant-in-the-room" (that almost no one wants to speak about) though. If we don't find some way to gather more group info about what our target market is doing out there we may continue to flounder alone while the Arabians move toward extinction. For me it is about what is the demographic profile of current buyers rather than "please tell me your source so I can sell my horses to them instead of you."

It would be so wonderful to wake up one day and have no bad news about starving horses or someone's emergency need to place good blood stock just before they get to that point.

I guess if few are willing to share their general thoughts on what plans they have developed for marketing, then my hope will have to remain that each of us begins to consider these type of questions for ourselves in order to better facilitate finding new homes and hopefully winning over new converts to our beautiful, talented, and intelligent Arabians.

Whether we try to help each other or not, there will always be those who may try to sneak in the back door and steal a sale or a coveted horse out from under the more innocent participants. I would still rather be out there talking and networking with other breeders rather than not. Perhaps more in the old ways of camaraderie that you remind us of.

So...just my thoughts on the subject...

Cordially,
Linda
HLM
QUOTE (rylolin @ Apr 15 2012, 01:49 AM) *
Hi Hansi,

Thanks for your thoughts Hansi. I have heard from a few people privately. My goal is to gather general information as research so not asking for very specific info about their business practices and clients - not so different from other kinds of research.

It seems to be the "elephant-in-the-room" (that almost no one wants to speak about) though. If we don't find some way to gather more group info about what our target market is doing out there we may continue to flounder alone while the Arabians move toward extinction. For me it is about what is the demographic profile of current buyers rather than "please tell me your source so I can sell my horses to them instead of you."

It would be so wonderful to wake up one day and have no bad news about starving horses or someone's emergency need to place good blood stock just before they get to that point.

I guess if few are willing to share their general thoughts on what plans they have developed for marketing, then my hope will have to remain that each of us begins to consider these type of questions for ourselves in order to better facilitate finding new homes and hopefully winning over new converts to our beautiful, talented, and intelligent Arabians.

Whether we try to help each other or not, there will always be those who may try to sneak in the back door and steal a sale or a coveted horse out from under the more innocent participants. I would still rather be out there talking and networking with other breeders rather than not. Perhaps more in the old ways of camaraderie that you remind us of.

So...just my thoughts on the subject...

Cordially,
Linda



Dear Linda

I think you mean well, but it looks if you are going on a "fishing trip".
To reveal business tactis openly is not exactly ethical in my opinion.
I dont believe that forums are the answer for gaining business experinces, one has to paddle one's own canoe.

Take care
Hansi.
rylolin
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 01:13 AM) *
Dear Linda

I think you mean well, but it looks if you are going on a "fishing trip".
To reveal business tactis openly is not exactly ethical in my opinion.
I dont believe that forums are the answer for gaining business experinces, one has to paddle one's own canoe.

Take care
Hansi.



Thank you Hansi. I wish to help others and would freely share what I know if it would help another. Mentoring in my view of the world covers a larger gamut perhaps. What do you think I am "fishing for" exactly? If knowledge was not to be shared there would be no need for researchers and no universities whether you are speaking of business matters, breeding practices, or pedigrees. So I will have to vote to disagree on this one note with you.

Cordially,
Linda
Roger
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 14 2012, 04:33 PM) *
Dear Linda

I mean you no disrespect, however your questions tresspass on business privacy, not everybody wishes to share.
Already do we have unethical business people among us, and dont need more.

thank you for trying to help.

Hansi



QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 14 2012, 08:13 PM) *
Dear Linda

I think you mean well, but it looks if you are going on a "fishing trip".
To reveal business tactis openly is not exactly ethical in my opinion.
I dont believe that forums are the answer for gaining business experinces, one has to paddle one's own canoe.

Take care
Hansi.


SAY WHAT?! You have got to be kidding me! Since when is it unethical to ask about marketing and promotional strategies in public? Your assertions are pure nonsense. Let me set you straight here Hansi, it's every bit as important to know the ins and outs of marketing your horses as it is to know how to breed the best horses possible. There is absolutely no difference in asking breeding questions as there is in asking marketing/promotion questions, or are you also of the opinion that when gaining breeding experience, one has to paddle one's own canoe? Marketing is not some dirty little secret that we shouldn't talk about. How dare you admonish and essentially tell Linda to shut up and go away for asking perfectly legitimate questions. What are you afraid of Hansi?
HLM
QUOTE (Roger @ Apr 15 2012, 12:43 PM) *
SAY WHAT?! You have got to be kidding me! Since when is it unethical to ask about marketing and promotional strategies in public? Your assertions are pure nonsense. Let me set you straight here Hansi, it's every bit as important to know the ins and outs of marketing your horses as it is to know how to breed the best horses possible. There is absolutely no difference in asking breeding questions as there is in asking marketing/promotion questions, or are you also of the opinion that when gaining breeding experience, one has to paddle one's own canoe? Marketing is not some dirty little secret that we shouldn't talk about. How dare you admonish and essentially tell Linda to shut up and go away for asking perfectly legitimate questions. What are you afraid of Hansi?



I expected no less reply from you Roger. Indeed I concider it unethical to ask for business details. Indeed it is important that everyone should try to be self-sustaining and "self-thinking". Many a warning, educationl matter in the past have either been critizied or not listened to. May be you should start a topic "why are we in the mess we are in". Sincere replies to such topic could be of great value, without nusty remarks like yours. You cant help yourself, always .shooting below the belt, right!.

I dont understand your remark" what I am afraid of". My dear, absolutely nothing. I was under the impression that particular questions are usually ask by our Associations to help them help us. Now if you wish to give us your details, as requested by Linda, go right ahead. How can Linda help anybody with her questions and some answers gained?
Will it help her marketing? and what about you, will it help you? May be you dont need any. Or is it frustation turning into whatever?

And to you Linda, as said before, I did not mean to offend you and think you are trying to help. You stated as I understand, that you had private responses. that's wonderful. At least there are some folks out there who agree with me. Now lets wait if our large farms will give their statistics, if we live long enough. May be I should have stayed out of this topic with my opinion, and let everybody do as they please. But may be I am trying to help.

Hansi.
Cheryl L
Amanda....I loved your clear and concise answers.
The demographic part was really fascinating to read.
rylolin
QUOTE (Roger @ Apr 15 2012, 12:43 PM) *
SAY WHAT?! You have got to be kidding me! Since when is it unethical to ask about marketing and promotional strategies in public? Your assertions are pure nonsense. Let me set you straight here Hansi, it's every bit as important to know the ins and outs of marketing your horses as it is to know how to breed the best horses possible. There is absolutely no difference in asking breeding questions as there is in asking marketing/promotion questions, or are you also of the opinion that when gaining breeding experience, one has to paddle one's own canoe? Marketing is not some dirty little secret that we shouldn't talk about. How dare you admonish and essentially tell Linda to shut up and go away for asking perfectly legitimate questions. What are you afraid of Hansi?



Thank you Roger, I was a little taken aback at the ethics accusation and confused by the fishing angle. I'm not sure how you would even use the answers to attack anyone?? I have re-thought two of the questions.

Instead of asking how many horses you sold and if you have repeat buyers, it might better enlighten us to ask how your percentage of successful sales over the last two years compares with your percentages in previous years and if you can put a percentage on how many of your buyers are new horse owners vs those buyers who are already in your sphere of influence (i.e. repeat clients, friends, other breeders you already do business with) vs. buyers new to Arabians.

And again, just looking here for generalizations about how individual breeders see their market and marketing practices evolving now.

My hope is that there might be some "aha" moments for us here.

What I can offer here myself is that I am using all of the advertising venues listed above and I sold 5 horses in this time period (about par for me). I use the same advertising means as already listed. The only thing that I can add is that most of my sales have come from reaching out on-on-one to potential buyers that I have some commonality with (i.e. same bloodlines and/or same performance focus - sport horses and/or some trade I am looking for). So I spend time researching those that I have something in common with to start. I have little if any results from strictly advertising. None of my clients were new to horses or Arabians so still selling within our existing group and have not sold any overseas. Most important for me has been staying open-minded and flexible in the process.

Would love to hear about anyone's unique and/or standard approaches to successful marketing if you'd like to share... biggrin.gif

Cordially,
Linda
rylolin
QUOTE (Cheryl L @ Apr 15 2012, 02:11 PM) *
Amanda....I loved your clear and concise answers.
The demographic part was really fascinating to read.


Yes Cheryl! And it seems to be a commonality among answers that I'm getting!
rylolin
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 01:51 PM) *
I expected no less reply from you Roger. Indeed I concider it unethical to ask for business details. Indeed it is important that everyone should try to be self-sustaining and "self-thinking". Many a warning, educationl matter in the past have either been critizied or not listened to. May be you should start a topic "why are we in the mess we are in". Sincere replies to such topic could be of great value, without nusty remarks like yours. You cant help yourself, always .shooting below the belt, right!.

I dont understand your remark" what I am afraid of". My dear, absolutely nothing. I was under the impression that particular questions are usually ask by our Associations to help them help us. Now if you wish to give us your details, as requested by Linda, go right ahead. How can Linda help anybody with her questions and some answers gained?
Will it help her marketing? and what about you, will it help you? May be you dont need any. Or is it frustation turning into whatever?

And to you Linda, as said before, I did not mean to offend you and think you are trying to help. You stated as I understand, that you had private responses. that's wonderful. At least there are some folks out there who agree with me. Now lets wait if our large farms will give their statistics, if we live long enough. May be I should have stayed out of this topic with my opinion, and let everybody do as they please. But may be I am trying to help.

Hansi.



Well, I don't expect large farms or even long-term breeders to give any answers and don't think their answer would really apply as their marketing is already set and successful over the long term. I guess this is more about small people and operations thinking things over and sharing. It's pretty clear that our Associations (Arabs and others) are not in a position to help us. They have their own issues with the dramatic downturn in registrations and loss of income. I haven't really seen any published articles regarding marketing assessments and recommendations ever coming from an Association. Have you?

I am a small breeder and I am saddened by the number of small breeders fleeing the business (in all breeds not just Arabs) plus the many seizures going on around us. Do you have any recommendations for the small breeder as far as marketing?

Cordially,
Linda
Liz Salmon
At the risk of being slammed by Hansi, I will comment. I try and have succeeded in helping many small breeders sell their horses, as I have travelled to so many countries and have numerous contacts—some of whom I have met in person. I have sold 2 young ones in the last 2 months. First of all I will not sell any horse except in very rare occasions that I have not seen and evaluated in person for conformation, type, movement, temperament, height and performance potential since most of the horses I sell are not old enough to be under saddle. If asked for advice on price I will give a rough guide and advise the owner to be flexible in the current market. Many Middle Eastern buyers want to bargain and reduce the price by 10-20% as the quarantine and shipping will cost them at least $9,000. I think that Face Book and eblasts have better results on the whole than advertising in magazines and less expensive.
HLM
QUOTE (rylolin @ Apr 15 2012, 03:24 PM) *
Well, I don't expect large farms or even long-term breeders to give any answers and don't think their answer would really apply as their marketing is already set and successful over the long term. I guess this is more about small people and operations thinking things over and sharing. It's pretty clear that our Associations (Arabs and others) are not in a position to help us. They have their own issues with the dramatic downturn in registrations and loss of income. I haven't really seen any published articles regarding marketing assessments and recommendations ever coming from an Association. Have you?

I am a small breeder and I am saddened by the number of small breeders fleeing the business (in all breeds not just Arabs) plus the many seizures going on around us. Do you have any recommendations for the small breeder as far as marketing?

Cordially,
Linda



Dear Linda

Again I am saying I did not mean to offend you. May be I read your topic different than others.
When I look at the many horses you have, of course I started wondering.

What we need is recognizing mistakes made in the past, so that these are not repeated.

Associations and their reports. I agree with you in part. However, if I want to know statistic I look at how many foals were born in whatever year/years/ how many transfers were made and how many exports took place.
This is what I mean by "self-thinking", or "paddling one's own canoe". At least from such statistic one gets true answers. Educating as to how to do what businesswise, is seldom done in seminars.

All the large farms once started out being small. So how did they get so successfull? How come thousands of exports take place almost every year, and by and large from smaller breeders internationally? Are they may be doing their homework and or breeding what is truly wanted by others?

Again, I mean no offence but feel that we need to get to the core of problems, and only then can we solve them.

Take care
Hansi
rylolin
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 02:39 PM) *
Dear Linda

Again I am saying I did not mean to offend you. May be I read your topic different than others.
When I look at the many horses you have, of course I started wondering.

What we need is recognizing mistakes made in the past, so that these are not repeated.

Associations and their reports. I agree with you in part. However, if I want to know statistic I look at how many foals were born in whatever year/years/ how many transfers were made and how many exports took place.
This is what I mean by "self-thinking", or "paddling one's own canoe". At least from such statistic one gets true answers. Educating as to how to do what businesswise, is seldom done in seminars.

All the large farms once started out being small. So how did they get so successfull? How come thousands of exports take place almost every year, and by and large from smaller breeders internationally? Are they may be doing their homework and or breeding what is truly wanted by others?

Again, I mean no offence but feel that we need to get to the core of problems, and only then can we solve them.

Take care
Hansi


Hello Hansi,

Well, in case you are wondering, my last foal crop was in 2009, all but 2 of my stallions (who are young) are under saddle including my 26 yr. old Shaikh Al Badi son. A number of horses came home to me over the last 24 mos. related to the economy, early lease endings, and on-going agreements spanning a few years. This year I have 4 foals coming and only 2 of those are ones I bred last year here. One of the mares I bred last year is tail female through Serenity Sonbolah and I could not be more excited about this foal.

Can you share more about your thoughts on how small breeders are marketing for export and how the large farms got to be so successful over the years. I think we can always benefit from hearing success stories and working strategies from others.

I think we might all be in agreement about the core problems - i.e. not training and breeding for performance and not proving our horses in performance. And not breeding for solid, athletic conformation. I am of the theory that the most important proving ground at the moment is in the community and local discipline shows and on the trails competitively and for pleasure and fun. These seem to be venues where we can win new admirers and supporters of our "doing" Arabs.

That said, this thread is about helping each other out with marketing process and practice information. I believe you have told us many times about how the old, big names in the original imports worked together to make the Egyptian Arabian well-known in the past. How is that different than what I am asking now? Except perhaps in those times there was no internet.

Cordially,
Linda
rylolin
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Apr 15 2012, 02:32 PM) *
At the risk of being slammed by Hansi, I will comment. I try and have succeeded in helping many small breeders sell their horses, as I have travelled to so many countries and have numerous contacts—some of whom I have met in person. I have sold 2 young ones in the last 2 months. First of all I will not sell any horse except in very rare occasions that I have not seen and evaluated in person for conformation, type, movement, temperament, height and performance potential since most of the horses I sell are not old enough to be under saddle. If asked for advice on price I will give a rough guide and advise the owner to be flexible in the current market. Many Middle Eastern buyers want to bargain and reduce the price by 10-20% as the quarantine and shipping will cost them at least $9,000. I think that Face Book and eblasts have better results on the whole than advertising in magazines and less expensive.



Hi Liz,

Thank you for weighing in on this subject! Glad to see you moving along with ease and business as usual... biggrin.gif !!

I also really like facebook and haven't yet tried eblasts but think that is a big key to success these days.

Using a successful and active agent is also a great strategy and important part of an overall marketing plan.

That perspective on ME buyers and export/import costs is very helpful in understanding the process and pricing strategies.

Cordially,
Linda

mckulley1
Paddling your own boat is how people make disastrous mistakes. Wouldn't it be far better to learn from someone else's mistakes and experiences rather than make the wrong decisions and possibly put your horse or your reputation on the chopping block?

Well, I think so.

Liz has been doing this for several decades. I've been doing this for 12 years now. People like us can, not only, give great advice, but chances are we know who the tire kickers and scammers are too...which in this business and as of late, tends to be a HUGE hurtle in marketing.
HLM
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Apr 15 2012, 02:32 PM) *
At the risk of being slammed by Hansi, I will comment. I try and have succeeded in helping many small breeders sell their horses, as I have travelled to so many countries and have numerous contacts—some of whom I have met in person. I have sold 2 young ones in the last 2 months. First of all I will not sell any horse except in very rare occasions that I have not seen and evaluated in person for conformation, type, movement, temperament, height and performance potential since most of the horses I sell are not old enough to be under saddle. If asked for advice on price I will give a rough guide and advise the owner to be flexible in the current market. Many Middle Eastern buyers want to bargain and reduce the price by 10-20% as the quarantine and shipping will cost them at least $9,000. I think that Face Book and eblasts have better results on the whole than advertising in magazines and less expensive.



Liz

why should I slamm you? Why this remark? What you are doing is great and I am aware of it. Always this anomosity Liz, why?????

I often get requests from overseas regarding a particular horse with a pedigree, not giving enough details.
I then send them one with ALL THE DETAILS under each horse. That takes my valuable time, but has resulted into a number of sales. Usually from small breeders who dont even know the helping hand they got from me.
If I know the horse personally and am asked, I give my opinions, also as to the repute of the seller involved, should I be familiar with it. I sometimes check with breeders I consider reliable and knowledgeable about a horse, and as you will understand, dont need scrunity of their horses, as they know what they have and are doing.

As I said many times before, education is needed, and not about heads,glamour and glory, but down to earth facts.

Indeed there are various ways many of us helped smaller breeders and never mentioned it to them- foreign requests-.
Even so some now turned TWO FACED, and kick in the back. that of course does reflect their character and reputation greatly in my opinion. Trust is gone, I guess.

Just my sincere opinion
Hansi




.

.

HLM
QUOTE (rylolin @ Apr 15 2012, 03:11 PM) *
Hello Hansi,

Well, in case you are wondering, my last foal crop was in 2009, all but 2 of my stallions (who are young) are under saddle including my 26 yr. old Shaikh Al Badi son. A number of horses came home to me over the last 24 mos. related to the economy, early lease endings, and on-going agreements spanning a few years. This year I have 4 foals coming and only 2 of those are ones I bred last year here. One of the mares I bred last year is tail female through Serenity Sonbolah and I could not be more excited about this foal.

Can you share more about your thoughts on how small breeders are marketing for export and how the large farms got to be so successful over the years. I think we can always benefit from hearing success stories and working strategies from others.

I think we might all be in agreement about the core problems - i.e. not training and breeding for performance and not proving our horses in performance. And not breeding for solid, athletic conformation. I am of the theory that the most important proving ground at the moment is in the community and local discipline shows and on the trails competitively and for pleasure and fun. These seem to be venues where we can win new admirers and supporters of our "doing" Arabs.

That said, this thread is about helping each other out with marketing process and practice information. I believe you have told us many times about how the old, big names in the original imports worked together to make the Egyptian Arabian well-known in the past. How is that different than what I am asking now? Except perhaps in those times there was no internet.

Cordially,
Linda



Hi Linda
the difference is that many of our people turned hateful, attack, critizize and dont ask questions as you do.
Each time I give an honest opinion, trying to help.

Success of us "oldies" has been working together, respecting each other and I never once heard any of them
making ugly remarks about their fellow breeders. those who do make them now are in my opinion born losers.

Furthermore, we showed in OPEN SHOWS, ALL BREED SHOWS, and attracked many newcommers. Usually at the All Arab shows people sell to each other, at least now-adays.

To sell abroad, means one should travel. Quite a few of our wAHO members are NOT RICH, save for 2 years to go to the conferences abroad. How many of our people here are even members of wAHO, through which they gain so much information, membership lists inluding of course all nations. In the booklets each time giving to the members after a conference are also recorded what the delligates of each nation reports,- i.e. numebr of foals born, exports,import, etc.etc. This is how some of us got contacts and made sales and still do. It is a mistake to think that we here are "an island". We have to blame ourselves when success is not obtained.

Better still, we visit farms abroad, instantly get an idea of what they are doing, seeing horses of all types, learning to evaluate what we have here and how competitive we really are. If we dont have comparrisons, we are walking in the dark. We also learn of other cultures and respect these. That to me is valuable information/learning.

Yes Linda, the rest of the world by and large wants "doing horses" breeding stock which consistenly produces such.
But do some of our people reraly know what a good moving horse is? Do they test for speed,staima and attitude?
Therefore, how can you market a horse when one realy does not know what one got?
Even Liz Salmon can not evaluate a horse fully, unless she is on top of it.
No matter how good the photos, how true the conformation evaluation, the clue comes WHEN IN THE SADDLE.!
Here I read "Royaly bred" (horse never saw a Royal Stable" super movements (cant show a decent stride)
beautiful heads (and I see a fish head/Pike head far removed from the true desert bred Arab and often a nightmare for the experienced rider, wondering if one should put a knitting needle into its mouth.
I had about a thousand different horses/breed under my seat in my lifetime and NONE was alike the other, although conformation etc was identical. Each horse is a PERSON in ITSELF.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with family horses and the like. But to breed for it only, will make losing money.
One cant bring any horse up to age 4, train it and get $ 5,000 for it. That's lunacrizy

,
As I said many times before, true education is necessary, right down to the knitty gritties.

Take care, I think you are on the right path.
hansi



.
MHuprich
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 12:09 PM) *
Hi Linda
...
Here I read "Royaly bred" (horse never saw a Royal Stable" super movements (cant show a decent stride)
beautiful heads (and I see a fish head/Pike head far removed from the true desert bred Arab and often a nightmare for the experienced rider, wondering if one should put a knitting needle into its mouth.
...
ITake care, I think you are on the right path.
hansi

.


Why would a pretty head be nghtmare for an experienced rider?

Why would someone put a knitting needle in a horse's mouth?
Liz Salmon
Hansi, I really didn't mean for my comment to appear to be taken as animosity at all, but you know in the past you have challenged my ability to evaluate horses as I tend to do it a bit differently from you that's all. Sadly at the moment, breeders are having to sell for what ever they can get regardless of what it has cost to produce the horses. It's being realistic in this economic climate.



QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 05:09 PM) *
Hi Linda
the difference is that many of our people turned hateful, attack, critizize and dont ask questions as you do.
Each time I give an honest opinion, trying to help.

Success of us "oldies" has been working together, respecting each other and I never once heard any of them
making ugly remarks about their fellow breeders. those who do make them now are in my opinion born losers.

Furthermore, we showed in OPEN SHOWS, ALL BREED SHOWS, and attracked many newcommers. Usually at the All Arab shows people sell to each other, at least now-adays.

To sell abroad, means one should travel. Quite a few of our wAHO members are NOT RICH, save for 2 years to go to the conferences abroad. How many of our people here are even members of wAHO, through which they gain so much information, membership lists inluding of course all nations. In the booklets each time giving to the members after a conference are also recorded what the delligates of each nation reports,- i.e. numebr of foals born, exports,import, etc.etc. This is how some of us got contacts and made sales and still do. It is a mistake to think that we here are "an island". We have to blame ourselves when success is not obtained.

Better still, we visit farms abroad, instantly get an idea of what they are doing, seeing horses of all types, learning to evaluate what we have here and how competitive we really are. If we dont have comparrisons, we are walking in the dark. We also learn of other cultures and respect these. That to me is valuable information/learning.

Yes Linda, the rest of the world by and large wants "doing horses" breeding stock which consistenly produces such.
But do some of our people reraly know what a good moving horse is? Do they test for speed,staima and attitude?
Therefore, how can you market a horse when one realy does not know what one got?
Even Liz Salmon can not evaluate a horse fully, unless she is on top of it.
No matter how good the photos, how true the conformation evaluation, the clue comes WHEN IN THE SADDLE.!
Here I read "Royaly bred" (horse never saw a Royal Stable" super movements (cant show a decent stride)
beautiful heads (and I see a fish head/Pike head far removed from the true desert bred Arab and often a nightmare for the experienced rider, wondering if one should put a knitting needle into its mouth.
I had about a thousand different horses/breed under my seat in my lifetime and NONE was alike the other, although conformation etc was identical. Each horse is a PERSON in ITSELF.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with family horses and the like. But to breed for it only, will make losing money.
One cant bring any horse up to age 4, train it and get $ 5,000 for it. That's lunacrizy

,
As I said many times before, true education is necessary, right down to the knitty gritties.

Take care, I think you are on the right path.
hansi



.

SKM
Time for a little light relief, so I thought I would share this list of advertising-speak for horses in general, not Arabians in particular, although they are mentioned as you will see ! - what people say about their horses is not always what is true! Anyway, I hope it gives you all a smile smile.gif

Event Prospect ... Big fast horse
Dressage Prospect ... Big slow horse
Sporting Prospect ... Short fast horse
Endurance Prospect ... Fast horse which will turn sometimes
Trail Prospect ... Pretty color
Flashy ... White socks
To Loving Home ... Expensive
To Show Home Only ... Very expensive
Needs Experienced Rider ... Potentially lethal
Elegant ... Thin
In Good Condition ... Foundered
Free Moving ... Bolts
Quiet ... Lame in both front legs
Dead Quiet ... Lame in all four legs
Good in Traffic / Bombproof ... Lame all around, deaf and blind
Loves Children ... Kicks and bites
Pony Type ... Small and hairy
Arab Type ... Looks startled
TB Type ... Looks terrified
Quarter Horse Type ... Fat
Draught Type ... Big and exceedingly hairy
Easy to Catch ... Very old
HLM
QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Apr 15 2012, 05:28 PM) *
Paddling your own boat is how people make disastrous mistakes. Wouldn't it be far better to learn from someone else's mistakes and experiences rather than make the wrong decisions and possibly put your horse or your reputation on the chopping block?

Well, I think so.

Liz has been doing this for several decades. I've been doing this for 12 years now. People like us can, not only, give great advice, but chances are we know who the tire kickers and scammers are too...which in this business and as of late, tends to be a HUGE hurtle in marketing.



McKulley

"paddling your own boat" is meant differently, it is meant that when the engines of a yacht konk out, the paddle boat will get there.

I respect Liz Salmon's work, but not always agree with her, as she wont with me either.
that's okay, at least there are two opinions, eh. Only difference is Liz get's paid for her work, I dont and give it freely.
But I understand, everybody has to earn a living, eh.
So, nothing wrong with it.

I dont know if my advice is great, but I assure you is sincere, as those of others are I feel.
Now dont misunderstand this again please.

Some people cant afford Liz Salmon or any other evaluator. Some can properly evaluate themselves.
So its up to anybody what they can and cant do.

take care
hansi
SKM
Sorry, I can't resist adding a few more:

How to read horse ads

BIG TROT: Can't canter within a 2 mile stretch

NICELY STARTED: Lunges, but we don't have enough insurance to ride him yet

TOP SHOW HORSE: Won a reserve championship 5 years ago at a show with unusually low entries due to a hurricane

HOME BRED: Knows nothing despite being home-grown

BOLD: Runaway

GOOD MOVER: Runaway

ATHLETIC: Runaway

NEEDS INTERMEDIATE RIDER: Runaway

NEEDS EXPERIENCED RIDER: DEAD Runaway

DEAD QUIET: Just dead

SPIRITED: Psychotic

RECENTLY VETTED: Someone else found something badly wrong with this horse

ANY VET CHECK WELCOME: Please pay for us to find out what the !@#$ is wrong with him!

BIG BONED: Good this has mane and tail or would be mistaken for cow

DOING COURSES: When tranquilised to the eyeballs and lunged six hours straight before

WELL MANNERED: Hasn't stepped on, bitten or kicked anyone for a week

PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED: Hasn't stepped on, bitten or kicked anyone for a week

STARTED O/F: Started overfeeding because can't ride

SHOULD MATURE 16 HANDS: Currently 13hh, dam is 14.2hh, sire is 15hh, every horse in pedigree back 18 generations is under 15hh, but this horse will defy his DNA and grow

TO GOOD HOME ONLY: Not really for sale unless you can:
Pay twice what he is worth;
Allow current owner to tuck in beddy-bye every night, and
Are willing to sign a 10 page legal document

NO VICES: Especially when he wears his muzzle

LIGHT CRIBBER: We can't afford to build any more stable and fences for this chainsaw

NO TIME FOR HIM: He's lucky to be fed

EXCELLENT DISPOSITION: Never been out of his stable

GOOD TO CLIP, SHOE, BOX: Clippety clippety is the sound his shoes make when he drags you across the yard as you try to box him

FOR SALE DUE TO LACK OF TIME: Rider cannot afford to spend any more time in hospital

WELL BRED: Mother and father are also brother and sister

BLACK: Brown and/or dirty

SUIT EVENTING: No brakes

SUIT DRESSAGE: No accelerator

SUIT ANYONE: Except us, we hate him

ALWAYS IN RIBBONS: The shows we went to gave complementary rossettes for all who entered

ALWAYS PLACED: The shows we went to were so small that there were no more than 3 in each class

GOOD AT SJ: All the classes we entered were minimus (jumps under 1 foot)

Author(s) Unknown
Liz Salmon
The thing is that owners can describe their horses in glowing terms, which is often fine, but maybe not always totally accurate. I give an independent opinion which buyers can appreciate, particularly when I do this for overseas buyers who want an expert opinion on a horse they want to buy, since many cannot or don't want to come to the USA for themselves. Many of the Middle Eastern buyers don't like the treatment they get at US airports. I do a written detailed description of each part of the horse and close up photos of the legs from all angles, as well as the rest of the horse. This is accompanied by a video with close ups too and movement showing the walk and trot going away and towards the camera as well as the horse moving loose and under saddle if they are trained to be ridden. It often involves traveling distances too, which I can't afford to do for free.
HLM
QUOTE (SKM @ Apr 15 2012, 06:33 PM) *
Sorry, I can't resist adding a few more:

How to read horse ads

BIG TROT: Can't canter within a 2 mile stretch

NICELY STARTED: Lunges, but we don't have enough insurance to ride him yet

TOP SHOW HORSE: Won a reserve championship 5 years ago at a show with unusually low entries due to a hurricane

HOME BRED: Knows nothing despite being home-grown

BOLD: Runaway

GOOD MOVER: Runaway

ATHLETIC: Runaway

NEEDS INTERMEDIATE RIDER: Runaway

NEEDS EXPERIENCED RIDER: DEAD Runaway

DEAD QUIET: Just dead

SPIRITED: Psychotic

RECENTLY VETTED: Someone else found something badly wrong with this horse

ANY VET CHECK WELCOME: Please pay for us to find out what the !@#$ is wrong with him!

BIG BONED: Good this has mane and tail or would be mistaken for cow

DOING COURSES: When tranquilised to the eyeballs and lunged six hours straight before

WELL MANNERED: Hasn't stepped on, bitten or kicked anyone for a week

PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED: Hasn't stepped on, bitten or kicked anyone for a week

STARTED O/F: Started overfeeding because can't ride

SHOULD MATURE 16 HANDS: Currently 13hh, dam is 14.2hh, sire is 15hh, every horse in pedigree back 18 generations is under 15hh, but this horse will defy his DNA and grow

TO GOOD HOME ONLY: Not really for sale unless you can:
Pay twice what he is worth;
Allow current owner to tuck in beddy-bye every night, and
Are willing to sign a 10 page legal document

NO VICES: Especially when he wears his muzzle

LIGHT CRIBBER: We can't afford to build any more stable and fences for this chainsaw

NO TIME FOR HIM: He's lucky to be fed

EXCELLENT DISPOSITION: Never been out of his stable

GOOD TO CLIP, SHOE, BOX: Clippety clippety is the sound his shoes make when he drags you across the yard as you try to box him

FOR SALE DUE TO LACK OF TIME: Rider cannot afford to spend any more time in hospital

WELL BRED: Mother and father are also brother and sister

BLACK: Brown and/or dirty

SUIT EVENTING: No brakes

SUIT DRESSAGE: No accelerator

SUIT ANYONE: Except us, we hate him

ALWAYS IN RIBBONS: The shows we went to gave complementary rossettes for all who entered

ALWAYS PLACED: The shows we went to were so small that there were no more than 3 in each class

GOOD AT SJ: All the classes we entered were minimus (jumps under 1 foot)

Author(s) Unknown



wow SKM, have you ever hit the nail on the head, mind you it matters who makes those original evaluatin statements.

Hansi



HLM
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Apr 15 2012, 06:44 PM) *
The thing is that owners can describe their horses in glowing terms, which is often fine, but maybe not always totally accurate. I give an independent opinion which buyers can appreciate, particularly when I do this for overseas buyers who want an expert opinion on a horse they want to buy, since many cannot or don't want to come to the USA for themselves. Many of the Middle Eastern buyers don't like the treatment they get at US airports. I do a written detailed description of each part of the horse and close up photos of the legs from all angles, as well as the rest of the horse. This is accompanied by a video with close ups too and movement showing the walk and trot going away and towards the camera as well as the horse moving loose and under saddle if they are trained to be ridden. It often involves traveling distances too, which I can't afford to do for free.


Hi Liz

I never challenged your ABILITY, but sometimes disagreed with you on monetary values and movement, and who is who preferred ,.which is always my opinion, also knowing the market, and you have yours..

Yes, the market is down, not just because of economy but with so few good horses left here which can stand the muster. When I hear my horse is "so fast" and it would take 15 hours for a 100miler versa 8 of the winner, I have my answer. May be I am taught differently Liz, going by the old German standards, and this should net be a disrespect to you. You have a particular clientel, so do I. Nothing wrong with that either, each to its own, eh.


I still maintain that out there with our small breeders in their backyard are horses which could do it all, and do it well.
They cant afford you Liz, and this is why we must try to find a way to have them evaluated and marketed.


Would it not be great if we find a place our people could bring their horses to, those who cant afford you, and then you and I do the evaluaoion? For free of course. For good measure we could ask Liz Dieter, Larapatavian (never can spell this right (Sharon and Chris) and whoever you like to recommend to join.
we then would have judging score sheets and can compare these with the others.
If the owners permit it, we could put it over the internet and see what happens.

By the way have you ever counted the percentage of horses old you evaluated. I have no idea, and most likely its high.
And, has nybody notes as to how many horses are being sold at the Event of the entries?

That would be good and wise study I think.


Just an idea Liz

take care
hansi
HLM
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Apr 15 2012, 05:52 PM) *
Why would a pretty head be nghtmare for an experienced rider?

Why would someone put a knitting needle in a horse's mouth?



I did not say "pretty head" I said "fishhead/pikehead"Now if you can get into that mouth a full bridle, or even a nice big,fat german snaffle, you are doing great. Yes, it is a nightmare for an exprienced rider. Do you know what a proper full bridle is? It most certainly does not have the "kandare" in a knitting needle type. But some people are doing it, this is when you see pushed down backs, (weggedrueckter Ruecken) neck resistance, rearend resistance etc,etc,
I thought you knew that.

Hansi
MHuprich
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 02:49 PM) *
I did not say "pretty head" I said "fishhead/pikehead"Wow if you can get into that mouth a full bridle, or even a nice big,fat german snaffle, you are doing great. Yes, it is a nightmare for an exprienced rider.

Hansi


If the mouth is not wide, wouldn't a smaller width bit work, like perhaps a size 4 bit? If not the bit width, what? Why is this a nightmare?

Why a knitting needle?
HLM
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Apr 15 2012, 07:53 PM) *
If the mouth is not wide, wouldn't a smaller width bit work, like perhaps a size 4 bit? If not the bit width, what? Why is this a nightmare?

Why a knitting needle?



It has nothing to do with "Size" it is the width of the bit. You mean you have never seen a knitting needle type in a horse's mouth? Just look at the Engl.Pleasure,Country Please and Park horses- many of them.
The Kandare is indeed the size (width) of a knitting needle, and a "raisor blade" in the hands of the ignorant. Sicne nothing diffeent fits into the Fishhead type mouth, its a riders nightmare, hanging on to them, and wishing that God would have put handles on the horse instead.

Hansi
MHuprich
A size 4 bit is a more narrow bit - narrow in width from side to side. Or are you talking about the circumferences of the metal in the bit now the width of the bit, ie from side to side?

I have seen a lot of country and english horses - they are not noted for having narrow mouths or extreme faces. Why would the bit/bridle people use on an english horse be related to the bit/bridle on a dishy faced horse?



HLM
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Apr 15 2012, 09:05 PM) *
A size 4 bit is a more narrow bit - narrow in width from side to side. Or are you talking about the circumferences of the metal in the bit now the width of the bit, ie from side to side?

I have seen a lot of country and english horses - they are not noted for having narrow mouths or extreme faces. Why would the bit/bridle people use on an english horse be related to the bit/bridle on a dishy faced horse?



Yes, I mean the circumferences. Those others using it?= As I said if reins/bits are to be hung on to, God would have grown a couple of handles on the horse. Such horses are basically RUINED. They are "Subdued" and they are in pain. Plus ad a "copper bit" now you have the caliver flowing like a flood stream, and it is "white" and the true calibre from chewing on the bit, being on the bit, is slightly "grey",. And you can also see things on the hindquarters, how they engage, either happily forward or condensed. And when you see these horses "walking" its a funeral march, petrified,.

I did not say "dished face" I said Fishhead/Pikehead" with an unrealistic concave bend over the portion below an actual jibba.
Go on the internet and find out "head types of equine" if it is there, you can see what I mean.
The snout is very short in most all cases, not enough room for a comfortable and kind bit. this is why experienced riders stay away from such horses, when they need a bit comfortable enough, to do stress performances.
A horse trained on the knitting needle typ, will always crawl back into itself for fear. Now Liz Salom knows all this, and if she were to select one of those for a client wanting to do stress work, flat or endurance etc, it would be wrong, when such horses in my opinion are worth 50cents per pound on the hoof, and you end up just looking at them. Surely Liz would check the length of the jawl/mouth, such an important factor.
.
Now you ask why people put that knitting needle type in the mouth, and I ask you why would anybody in their right mind breed for "fisheads/pikeheads".? Who started this fad? and who all is getting on this bandwaggon ready to break down? Most of all who will buy such deformed disasters?

Hansi

.

Liz Salmon
I was taught by my Dressage trainer who was with the Spanish Riding School for 3 years that the best bit for Arabians are the thick French Snaffles as they have 2 joints instead of one. He said that the jaws of most Arabians are a bit narrower than other breeds, so that the single joint often acted like a nut cracker. He was a very wise knowledgable man and one of the very few Brits to be accepted by the Spanish Riding School. I have always used them, so does my daughter and NEVER the thin, abusive wire bits.
HLM
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Apr 15 2012, 08:51 PM) *
I was taught by my Dressage trainer who was with the Spanish Riding School for 3 years that the best bit for Arabians are the thick French Snaffles as they have 2 joints instead of one. He said that the jaws of most Arabians are a bit narrower than other breeds, so that the single joint often acted like a nut cracker. He was a very wise knowledgable man and one of the very few Brits to be accepted by the Spanish Riding School. I have always used them, so does my daughter and NEVER the thin, abusive wire bits.



I knew you would Liz. However we still need the mouth to fit in the bits we speak off.
I never used the 2jointed once, only use the German Snaffle bits to start off with, first longing- D-ring- shortly thereafter ONLY snaffle with large lose ring.

when it comes to a full bridle, lit is only used for higher dressage levels, as the "Kandare" HAS ONLY
ONE FUNCTION "TO LOWER THE HOCKS", after they are well gymanstizied.

I always love using the Pelhams, it gives control with a younger horse, and of course after it has proper good training on a snaffle before, and can give more accurate movement and control., etc.

I guess we come from the same old school, eh.

Hansi
MHuprich
I do not see any correlation between the use of the narrow twisted wire bits and the size of the muzzle/jaw area.
Liz Salmon
For Hansi's info, I just counted how many evaluated horses from small breeders I sold over the last 4 years-- it was 47, the best year being 2008 when I sold 22 and one from a big breeder, but still seen and evaluated. I have sold 3 so far this year. They are nearly all young horses and overseas sales. I have another pending. I evaluated 6 horses last week in Arkansas just before my surgery. A couple of great potential dressage geldings among them.
HLM
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Apr 15 2012, 10:18 PM) *
For Hansi's info, I just counted how many evaluated horses from small breeders I sold over the last 4 years-- it was 47, the best year being 2008 when I sold 22 and one from a big breeder, but still seen and evaluated. I have sold 3 so far this year. They are nearly all young horses and overseas sales. I have another pending. I evaluated 6 horses last week in Arkansas just before my surgery. A couple of great potential dressage geldings among them.



that's great, congrats. I hope your surgery went well and that you are okay. Imstruggled along too, 8 days hospital and in ICU, but am okay the best it can be under the circumstances. In Germany we say "Unkraut vergeht nicht" (weeds dont die) so may be that's what it is, eh smile.gif

Take care
Hansi
HLM
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Apr 15 2012, 10:08 PM) *
I do not see any correlation between the use of the narrow twisted wire bits and the size of the muzzle/jaw area.



OMG, I cant believe what I read/hearing. All these new inventions and where did it exactly take the horses?
Go back to old books, equipment, and see what was used then up todate by those taught properly. the arab has a very sensitive mouth and great equipment care should be taken. What you stated belongs in the mouth of a gator.

Hansi
MHuprich
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 04:44 PM) *
OMG, I cant believe what I read/hearing. All these new inventions and where did it exactly take the horses?
Go back to old books, equipment, and see what was used then up todate by those taught properly. the arab has a very sensitive mouth and great equipment care should be taken. What you stated belongs in the mouth of a gator.

Hansi


I am NOT promoting the use of twisted wire or knitting needles in the mouth of the horse. You are the one that said this is somehow related to an extremely dishy face. I am trying to understand how the extremely dishy face requires the use of the small circumference bit or knitting needles.
mckulley1
And who would you suggest be the yacht for someone when they have no or little experience? We are not all yachts when it comes to marketing, breeding, etc.


QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 01:19 PM) *
McKulley

"paddling your own boat" is meant differently, it is meant that when the engines of a yacht konk out, the paddle boat will get there.


take care
hansi

mckulley1
And frankly, have you ever seen an "extreme head" in a bridle w/a bit in the mouth? SNORT! It is very clear our performance horses do not equal "extreme" heads. And our performance horses are almost never Halter horses because the Halter judges demand extreme heads.

Hey, I don't make the rules.....
HLM
QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Apr 16 2012, 12:37 AM) *
And frankly, have you ever seen an "extreme head" in a bridle w/a bit in the mouth? SNORT! It is very clear our performance horses do not equal "extreme" heads. And our performance horses are almost never Halter horses because the Halter judges demand extreme heads.

Hey, I don't make the rules.....



You are right Mckulley, the pike heads were not bred for performance, it is said. So why dont we just get back to the subject marketing, and I am also guilty for helping to changing it. So I apologyze to Linda, who started the topic

thank you
Hansi
rylolin
QUOTE (SKM @ Apr 15 2012, 07:18 PM) *
Time for a little light relief, so I thought I would share this list of advertising-speak for horses in general, not Arabians in particular, although they are mentioned as you will see ! - what people say about their horses is not always what is true! Anyway, I hope it gives you all a smile smile.gif

Event Prospect ... Big fast horse
Dressage Prospect ... Big slow horse
Sporting Prospect ... Short fast horse
Endurance Prospect ... Fast horse which will turn sometimes
Trail Prospect ... Pretty color
Flashy ... White socks
To Loving Home ... Expensive
To Show Home Only ... Very expensive
Needs Experienced Rider ... Potentially lethal
Elegant ... Thin
In Good Condition ... Foundered
Free Moving ... Bolts
Quiet ... Lame in both front legs
Dead Quiet ... Lame in all four legs
Good in Traffic / Bombproof ... Lame all around, deaf and blind
Loves Children ... Kicks and bites
Pony Type ... Small and hairy
Arab Type ... Looks startled
TB Type ... Looks terrified
Quarter Horse Type ... Fat
Draught Type ... Big and exceedingly hairy
Easy to Catch ... Very old



Thank you for the humor! I always enjoy it...
mckulley1
Hansi,

I'm mean no disrespect but when it comes to you, I have found you to always be of the mind set that it's someone else's problem. Someone else changes the subject, someone else breeds the "wrong kind" of Arabian horse, someone else is asking too many questions, someone else isn't doing this breed justice.

I think maybe it's time for you to become the yacht, and leave the paddle boat at the dock........We are all responsible for the direction that our lives, and this breed, takes. Remember when you point at someone, three fingers are pointing back at you....
HLM
QUOTE (mckulley1 @ Apr 16 2012, 02:27 AM) *
Hansi,

I'm mean no disrespect but when it comes to you, I have found you to always be of the mind set that it's someone else's problem. Someone else changes the subject, someone else breeds the "wrong kind" of Arabian horse, someone else is asking too many questions, someone else isn't doing this breed justice.

I think maybe it's time for you to become the yacht, and leave the paddle boat at the dock........We are all responsible for the direction that our lives, and this breed, takes. Remember when you point at someone, three fingers are pointing back at you....



Mkulley

I really dont know what you are talking about. I apologyzed to Linda that I got carried away into another subject, did you not read this.

You also misunderstand that yacht/paddle remark. its an old saying I adopted and fully understand it.
I means that if a faster boat wants to get to a certain destination and breaks down, the paddle boat which has no engines will get there first. At least in most cases. Believe it or not, it always worked for me. One can also say "walk before one runs". I guess we have to meet and then face to face give more explanations.

But here is the case in point, when I share experiences, say straight forward my findings "I am telling people what to do". FAR FROM IT, I am actually asking them to think it over, consider alternatives, etc.
May be you did not want to insult me, so I give it a daubt, eh
. May be I should stop sharing experiences ,etc. and let everybody do their own thing. May be I am wrong in thinking that all is not that well and that there are ways to solve problems.. I know wisdom cant be taught, but can be considered.

Therefore please think over what you write and offend.

Hansi.


rylolin
QUOTE (HLM @ Apr 15 2012, 05:09 PM) *
Hi Linda
the difference is that many of our people turned hateful, attack, critizize and dont ask questions as you do.
Each time I give an honest opinion, trying to help.

Success of us "oldies" has been working together, respecting each other and I never once heard any of them
making ugly remarks about their fellow breeders. those who do make them now are in my opinion born losers.

Furthermore, we showed in OPEN SHOWS, ALL BREED SHOWS, and attracked many newcommers. Usually at the All Arab shows people sell to each other, at least now-adays.

To sell abroad, means one should travel. Quite a few of our wAHO members are NOT RICH, save for 2 years to go to the conferences abroad. How many of our people here are even members of wAHO, through which they gain so much information, membership lists inluding of course all nations. In the booklets each time giving to the members after a conference are also recorded what the delligates of each nation reports,- i.e. numebr of foals born, exports,import, etc.etc. This is how some of us got contacts and made sales and still do. It is a mistake to think that we here are "an island". We have to blame ourselves when success is not obtained.

Better still, we visit farms abroad, instantly get an idea of what they are doing, seeing horses of all types, learning to evaluate what we have here and how competitive we really are. If we dont have comparrisons, we are walking in the dark. We also learn of other cultures and respect these. That to me is valuable information/learning.

Yes Linda, the rest of the world by and large wants "doing horses" breeding stock which consistenly produces such.
But do some of our people reraly know what a good moving horse is? Do they test for speed,staima and attitude?
Therefore, how can you market a horse when one realy does not know what one got?
Even Liz Salmon can not evaluate a horse fully, unless she is on top of it.
No matter how good the photos, how true the conformation evaluation, the clue comes WHEN IN THE SADDLE.!
Here I read "Royaly bred" (horse never saw a Royal Stable" super movements (cant show a decent stride)
beautiful heads (and I see a fish head/Pike head far removed from the true desert bred Arab and often a nightmare for the experienced rider, wondering if one should put a knitting needle into its mouth.
I had about a thousand different horses/breed under my seat in my lifetime and NONE was alike the other, although conformation etc was identical. Each horse is a PERSON in ITSELF.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with family horses and the like. But to breed for it only, will make losing money.
One cant bring any horse up to age 4, train it and get $ 5,000 for it. That's lunacrizy

,
As I said many times before, true education is necessary, right down to the knitty gritties.

Take care, I think you are on the right path.
hansi


Hello Hansi,

Thank you.

There are many Arabian horse sellers out there today who would be thrilled to get $5000 for their well-bred, correct and already trained Arabs because of today's economy. But my point is that unless you start engaging real people in our own communities in this country, the only Arab breeders left here will be those with connections and ability to sell overseas. Any number of agents and/or sellers will tell you that even those buyers want excellent bargains these days because they also know the score here (the economy) and they have the high cost of shipping/importing to pay on top of the price of the horse. Not everyone has decades of experience, sales, and breeding success to bring them higher sales prices. But there are many who will be working themselves up the ladder to the prices you are thinking if we can engage them and give them a start. Keyword here is to Engage them!

You strongly support endurance as a way of proving the abiltiy of our Arabians. Endurance riders are notorious for only being able to pay low prices, often a lot less than the $5000 you mentioned here, for their mounts. Raising flat racer costs a small fortune to support beyond what it cost you to produce a strong candidate. A third way of proving the stock is by submitting them for testing to a warmblood registry. Some people are going that route now. What are other ways are there to prove our horses?

Arabians were promoted as doing, versatile, family horses for a long time and many people were able to ride and show their own back in those days. Personally, I would rather see that again than a situation where only the wealthy can afford and have horses.

Cordially,
Linda
mckulley1
Hansi,

I don't need to think about what I wrote. You consistently come on here and do nothing short of offend just about everyone for everything under the sun and profess it is due to your "bad English".

Enough already. Either get on here and BE CONSTRUCTIVE or get OFF. I have LITERALLY been watching your same dog and pony show since 2003 and it is so tiresome.


***************************

Linda,

I think the equine market is shifting back to the time when not everyone COULD afford a horse. The upper tier and the family ranch could...but the low and middle class could not. If you wanted to be around horses, you found a local riding stable and you took lessons. Much like they do in mainland Europe. This was the shift from the family farm, to farms who catered to individual owners - ie stables.

There is a new shift in our class system, with an ever growing lower class comprising of what used to be middle class and those high class individuals who got dumped in the can in 2008.

While as the Middle East, for the first time in history, is seeing a rise in their "middle class". A group of individuals who, by our current standards, would be considered high class, but who, by their standards, are middle class. For the first time they can purchase property, build, and become involved in Arabian horses like their much wealthier high class counterparts. However, they are not in a position to purchase high end horses at high end prices. Just wealthy enough to get involved in a small scale, not wealthy enough to not care what they spend. I believe the media terms it the "Arab Spring".

Now you have China getting involved. Again, another economy that is producing high class people by the bucket fulls. They have been creating riding stables/recreation stables. It provides local jobs to lesser class people while providing horses for riding, recreation, and breeding to those who can afford it. That being said, they still do not have a functioning registry for the Arabian horse, so these horses are lost to the breed once they leave our registry. Because of this desire to import literally hundreds of horses per year into China with out a registry intact, I have a lot of hard feelings regarding them....
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