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annalisa
Hi to all,
I recently have heard some voices, from Middle East, according to which the Straight Egyptian stallion Crusader (Salaa El Dine x AK Kastana) would not be desiderable to enter into pure daughters of desert....
I wonder and I ask to you the reason.
For what I know, I can say that his dam is a daughter of Na Ibn Moniet (Ibn Moniet El Nefous x Roufah- x Nadafi (Morafic x Sammara , by Morafic, again). His sire is Salaa El Dine and, I think, nobody has something to say on him. Well, where- who- what- is the problem ? Perhaps, as has happened , to the poor Tifla, in love with a proud donkey, other mares of his pedigree have had romantic adventures with zebra stallions ? (Ah Ah Ah !!!!) .
May be somebody whisper low voices .....dam line .... What ? Dam line ? Dam line of Crusader is the SAME as SAMEH....... So, also, the immortal queens Ansata Bint Misr, or Serenity Sombolah or Ansata Bint Sameh , or Deena, or the immortal sires: Imperial Imdal , Ibn Hafiza or Al Metrabbi or Classic Shadwan or Ibn Safinaz could be questionable?

Somebody can explain the debate,

Another question come to the light: if we pride ourselves to breed with pure daughters of deserts, perhaps the mares El Kahila, El Shahbaa, El Samraa, not originate directly from the desert?

I'm looking for answers.....

bye

annalisa

Sabrina+Karsten
ZITAT(annalisa @ May 21 2012, 11:11 PM) *
Hi to all,
I recently have heard some voices, from Middle East, according to which the Straight Egyptian stallion Crusader (Salaa El Dine x AK Kastana) would not be desiderable to enter into pure daughters of desert....
I wonder and I ask to you the reason.
For what I know, I can say that his dam is a daughter of Na Ibn Moniet (Ibn Moniet El Nefous x Roufah- x Nadafi (Morafic x Sammara , by Morafic, again). His sire is Salaa El Dine and, I think, nobody has something to say on him. Well, where- who- what- is the problem ? Perhaps, as has happened , to the poor Tifla, in love with a proud donkey, other mares of his pedigree have had romantic adventures with zebra stallions ? (Ah Ah Ah !!!!) .
May be somebody whisper low voices .....dam line .... What ? Dam line ? Dam line of Crusader is the SAME as SAMEH....... So, also, the immortal queens Ansata Bint Misr, or Serenity Sombolah or Ansata Bint Sameh , or Deena, or the immortal sires: Imperial Imdal , Ibn Hafiza or Al Metrabbi or Classic Shadwan or Ibn Safinaz could be questionable?

Somebody can explain the debate,

Another question come to the light: if we pride ourselves to breed with pure daughters of deserts, perhaps the mares El Kahila, El Shahbaa, El Samraa, not originate directly from the desert?

I'm looking for answers.....

bye

annalisa




I can only speak from the German SE-breeding. Many breeders (so-called blue list breeders) are avoiding Hanan for some reasons (not blue list, origin cleared up by her owner - some breeders doubt it). Secondly, El Samraa has no verified strain in their eyes. The strain changed in the past. As the mother passes on the strain, some SE-breeders are avoiding this dam line. As Sameh himself does not pass on the strain, it is not such a problem and therefore he is more accepted.

And there are also some breeders which don't accept El Samraa incl. Sameh as they doubt the whole pedigree. They avoid Hab El Reah and Bint El Sheikh being no usual names for Arabian Horses but a kind of destination without proof.

This is my try to explain it - but maybe there are other reasons...

Best regards
Sabrina
annalisa
Dear Sabrina,
thank you for the reply.

I wonder if has changed the bloodline or the name of the line? Let me explain: Yamama was considered a Kuhaylah Jallabiyah for decades. Today we know that it is instead a Saqlawiyah . ​​Perhaps something has changed her? No, her productions are the same. Sameh does not pass the name of the line, but he has within himself Hab El Reah and Bint El Sheik.... (maybe it is hiding the head in the sand? The problem, if it were a problem, does not disappear ....

For me it remains an anachronistic matter , that underlies a deep intolerance forced into anachronistic conservatism: we speak of purity, but purity compared to what?

Poor Tifla! Poor Nasrallah! Poor Sameh!

Best regards
annalisa
HADHAD ARABIANS
QUOTE (annalisa @ May 22 2012, 12:47 AM) *
Dear Sabrina,
thank you for the reply.

I wonder if has changed the bloodline or the name of the line? Let me explain: Yamama was considered a Kuhaylah Jallabiyah for decades. Today we know that it is instead a Saqlawiyah . ​​Perhaps something has changed her? No, her productions are the same. Sameh does not pass the name of the line, but he has within himself Hab El Reah and Bint El Sheik.... (maybe it is hiding the head in the sand? The problem, if it were a problem, does not disappear ....

For me it remains an anachronistic matter , that underlies a deep intolerance forced into anachronistic conservatism: we speak of purity, but purity compared to what?

Poor Tifla! Poor Nasrallah! Poor Sameh!

Best regards
annalisa


gbfahne.gif
Dear Annalisa,

the true problem for Crusader is that he was exported to Saudi Arabia and we have too little sons of him in Europe.
Crusader was a wonderful statuary stallion winner of shows an winner of races, I believe he was the best son of Salaa El Dine.
The pedigree of Crusader is impeccable and I will not say more. Often the people run down what they haven't.
Do you remember how many very important horses have the families of Hanan and El Samraa in the selection of the Straight Egyptian horses ?
Today who has a son or a daughter of Crusader from a good family is lucky.

Best regards,
Domenico Tocchi

HADHAD ARABIANS
www.hadhad-arabians.com
karin
Interesting topic.

I had this experience in buyers suddenly backing off for certain pedigrees in the past and afterwards they realised it was a pity and without any real reason.

Concerning Yamama that was a 'mistake' from the Blunt family and corrected now. It is good we have dna tests now.

Karin
corsu
QUOTE (annalisa @ May 21 2012, 11:11 PM) *
Hi to all,
I recently have heard some voices, from Middle East, according to which the Straight Egyptian stallion Crusader (Salaa El Dine x AK Kastana) would not be desiderable to enter into pure daughters of desert....
I wonder and I ask to you the reason.
For what I know, I can say that his dam is a daughter of Na Ibn Moniet (Ibn Moniet El Nefous x Roufah- x Nadafi (Morafic x Sammara , by Morafic, again). His sire is Salaa El Dine and, I think, nobody has something to say on him. Well, where- who- what- is the problem ? Perhaps, as has happened , to the poor Tifla, in love with a proud donkey, other mares of his pedigree have had romantic adventures with zebra stallions ? (Ah Ah Ah !!!!) .
May be somebody whisper low voices .....dam line .... What ? Dam line ? Dam line of Crusader is the SAME as SAMEH....... So, also, the immortal queens Ansata Bint Misr, or Serenity Sombolah or Ansata Bint Sameh , or Deena, or the immortal sires: Imperial Imdal , Ibn Hafiza or Al Metrabbi or Classic Shadwan or Ibn Safinaz could be questionable?

Somebody can explain the debate,

Another question come to the light: if we pride ourselves to breed with pure daughters of deserts, perhaps the mares El Kahila, El Shahbaa, El Samraa, not originate directly from the desert?

I'm looking for answers.....

bye

annalisa



There was a problem with Hanan (it was for instance impossible to have her descent registered in the UK for a while) but that has been solved - although perhaps not for everybody.

But there are indeed breeders as well that have a problem with El Samraa because of the absence of a Hujjah in the registry. See El Samraa gone with the wind or daughter of the wind/ article. I have already talked to a few SE breeders that will never incorporate Sameh blood because of this (but then these people are often stuck to their 2 or 3 foundation horses, it would also apply on other SE mares like Moniet el Nefous which can be traced to the Abbas Pasha stud, like King Farouk's stud assumed to trace only to desert stock)
annalisa
Dear friends,

The matter that we do not have enough information about her, not to authorize any look her with suspicious eyes: moreover: who really was Koheylan El Mossen? Or Halabia, or who was Badria .....
We breeders of these breeds ,have only the ability to maintain and leverage them, but we can not fathom in the remote past, since for all the Arab horses defined as SE, at the end of the research there is always written DB .
Also ... for so-called horses of Abbas Pasha, in the end, there is always a Bedouin clan, said ,to have brought the mother of this hypothetical horse .... that was bought by Abbas Pasha!!

About the statement of Karin: Concerning Yamama that was a 'mistake' from the Blunt family and corrected now. It is good we have dna tests now.


I can say to you that there is not at all a mistake of Mrs Anne Blunt , and you can read this on Jand C. or take a look to an old article written by myself on Desert Heritage Magazine, about this matter ( Yamama and the lost strais, this is the title of the article)

So in my opinion, the question is -as always- a lack of informations that gives birth to intolerances.

bye to all
JoeFerriss
QUOTE (corsu @ May 27 2012, 05:39 AM) *
There was a problem with Hanan (it was for instance impossible to have her descent registered in the UK for a while) but that has been solved - although perhaps not for everybody.

But there are indeed breeders as well that have a problem with El Samraa because of the absence of a Hujjah in the registry. See El Samraa gone with the wind or daughter of the wind/ article. I have already talked to a few SE breeders that will never incorporate Sameh blood because of this (but then these people are often stuck to their 2 or 3 foundation horses, it would also apply on other SE mares like Moniet el Nefous which can be traced to the Abbas Pasha stud, like King Farouk's stud assumed to trace only to desert stock)


Whenever I hear of a prejudice toward a particular ancestor in an Egyptian pedigree I am always curious if the person rejecting has defended their decision with a thoroughly well thought out reason for avoiding such ancestor or ancestors. Especially in an environment of the history of the Arabian horse whereby we have no choice but to take a certain amount of faith that what was known in the past by someone at some point in time is not known later because of the lack of a national registry in the past, or uniform record keeping, or the destruction of records in conflict or war or revolution.

I remember well years ago in Syria when I was trying to learn more about the background of Dajaniah the dam of El Nasser (in Nasralla's pedigree). The Arab person who I was interviewing through an interpreter was very proud of the Kuhaylah Dajaniah strain and I could see it in his face without even knowing the Arabic that was being spoken. When I continued to ask more questions through the interpreter, I could see his expression change to one of frustration and agitation. As the discussion continued I began to realize that I needed to communicate to him that I was not challenging the purity of this family and that I did not need convincing personally of the value of this blood but that I was dealing with skeptical western minds in making my appeal to get this line accepted by Al Khamsa and I just wanted to know all the details I could find.

At first this experience seemed somewhat embarrassing to me but as the conversation continued and he realized that I now understood why he was proud of this blood we became friendly through good interpreter interaction, a friendship that continues. What I learned from this experience is something that many newcomers may not understand and that is when a family of horses has a history of value and respect in the past, those valuing them never need to look back and question it and they do not need to know all the details. One word says it all to them "Dajaniah".

So what happens when circumstance cuts off the record of this pride and this value of the past? What if, in only one lifetime, all that is known orally about a prized mare's line is lost in the death of the person knowing and not passed on in full measure to others and such horses are sold off to new buyers who don't require to know more than perhaps said horse is fast on the track and comes from a reliable source but its strain is not remembered or not clear because of inadvertent interruption of the passing on of information?

Years later it may be possible to find the people who knew more. But if, in the meantime, the broader general information connects the horse to sources that can be reasonably assumed to be connected to the Bedouin horse breeding tribes, then the ancestor deserves our faith in it.

More than a century has passed now and the 1890 mare Halabia who came from Abu Amin Halabia's stables in Egypt is found many times over in EVERY SINGLE pedigree of living straight Egyptian horses. 1890 was still at a time when people like Lady Anne Blunt were keeping dairies, or journals or notes on horses of that era. Yet we still know nothing specific today of Halabia's origins or about Abu Amin Halabi to connect her to the Bedouin horse breeding tribes. Certainly we have to take her on faith the same way we do with El Samraa. Halabia is not a unique situation as there are numerous others that could be compared. In the bigger picture it seems very difficult and contradictory to eliminate some of the ancestors of Crusader, yet accept others.

Herein lies the great tragedy of making decisions without thorough investigation from all angles, or in closing the door to information previously unknown that now sheds more light on the ancestry of our Arabian horses.

It might be interesting to point out the stallion named Gamil El Din who is only listed in the RAS stud book as "a race horse belonging to Ahmed Bey Abu Foutouh." He is in many popular Egyptian pedigrees today, even in Bahrain. But all that was in print for many years about Gamil El Din was that he was a race horse. And now new information from old sources confirms that Gamal El Din was essentially a three-quarter brother to the mare Futna, a Kuhaylah Halawiyah who was one of the foundation mares of the renowned Hamdan Stud in Egypt.

Even the link cited above on the daughter of the wind blog regarding El Samraa could soon be obsolete as in our modern time we find new ways to be connected to those who have saved family histories and information just in the same way that I have kept some of my grandfather's letters in the 1930's about having seen in person some of the Davenport imported Bedouin Arabians in 1906.

Currently there are only about 67 or so "original" named Arabian foundation horses that make up the basis of straight Egyptian breeding. It would be sad to lose any of these precious benefactors. Egyptian Arabian breeders need to be aware that they cannot afford to lose any more pedigree diversity through prejudice, especially that which cannot be properly justified.
Seglawiyat
Joe, your voice is a breath of reason in a maelstrom of babble.
Nadj al Nur
QUOTE (JoeFerriss @ May 27 2012, 05:00 AM) *
Currently there are only about 67 or so "original" named Arabian foundation horses that make up the basis of straight Egyptian breeding. It would be sad to lose any of these precious benefactors. Egyptian Arabian breeders need to be aware that they cannot afford to lose any more pedigree diversity through prejudice, especially that which cannot be properly justified.

This statement is worth repeating, over and over.................
C
barbnbenni
there is a story that hanan wasnt pure bred it was perpetuated by some jealous breeders it was at the time Judy forbis leased jamill and brought him to usa i even remember reading that some one tried to kill jamill
barbnbenni
QUOTE (barbnbenni @ May 31 2012, 05:02 PM) *
there is a story that hanan wasnt pure bred it was perpetuated by some jealous breeders it was at the time Judy forbis leased jamill and brought him to usa i even remember reading that some one tried to kill jamill

it was due to Jami's success that the rumor that hanan was not pure there fore he rget weren't pure bred
JoeFerriss
QUOTE (barbnbenni @ May 31 2012, 10:05 PM) *
it was due to Jami's success that the rumor that hanan was not pure there fore he rget weren't pure bred


The ancestors in Jamil's pedigree that were a curiosity to some people, were already in the U.S. in 1970 with the import of Hanan's three-quarter sister Serenity Montaha, long before Jamil was imported. So I would think only a very few would fall for a rumor about Jamil. There never should have been any issue about Hanan in the first place. With the help of others, I succeeded in getting this blood accepted by Al Khamsa a long time ago so it amazes me that anyone would still believe unfounded rumors.
M.D.
QUOTE (annalisa @ May 21 2012, 10:11 PM) *
Hi to all,
I recently have heard some voices, from Middle East, according to which the Straight Egyptian stallion Crusader (Salaa El Dine x AK Kastana) would not be desiderable to enter into pure daughters of desert....
I wonder and I ask to you the reason.
For what I know, I can say that his dam is a daughter of Na Ibn Moniet (Ibn Moniet El Nefous x Roufah- x Nadafi (Morafic x Sammara , by Morafic, again). His sire is Salaa El Dine and, I think, nobody has something to say on him. Well, where- who- what- is the problem ? Perhaps, as has happened , to the poor Tifla, in love with a proud donkey, other mares of his pedigree have had romantic adventures with zebra stallions ? (Ah Ah Ah !!!!) .
May be somebody whisper low voices .....dam line .... What ? Dam line ? Dam line of Crusader is the SAME as SAMEH....... So, also, the immortal queens Ansata Bint Misr, or Serenity Sombolah or Ansata Bint Sameh , or Deena, or the immortal sires: Imperial Imdal , Ibn Hafiza or Al Metrabbi or Classic Shadwan or Ibn Safinaz could be questionable?

Somebody can explain the debate,

Another question come to the light: if we pride ourselves to breed with pure daughters of deserts, perhaps the mares El Kahila, El Shahbaa, El Samraa, not originate directly from the desert?

I'm looking for answers.....

bye

annalisa


------
annalisa
My dear M.D.

firstly, I'm used to correspond with people that I know name, surname and place of origin. I do not like to talking with people who hide behind a pseudonym.
You have considered me as the person that I am not.
It is clear that I know, very well, the matter of these facts. My intention is to present the reality of these facts to the readers without second or third purpose.
The futile arguments and touchiness have killed the art and culture of this horse..

Have a good night.

annalisa
M.D.
QUOTE (annalisa @ Jun 4 2012, 10:10 PM) *
My dear M.D.

firstly, I'm used to correspond with people that I know name, surname and place of origin. I do not like to talking with people who hide behind a pseudonym.
You have considered me as the person that I am not.
It is clear that I know, very well, the matter of these facts. My intention is to present the reality of these facts to the readers without second or third purpose.
The futile arguments and touchiness have killed the art and culture of this horse..

Have a good night.

annalisa




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