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gajustice
I am just getting started in the Arabian Horse breeding end of the business and I am wondering; where in the world are all the conformation shots?!?!?!? I have only seen a hand full of stallions that show anything from the neck down and those stallions are all moving or there tail is in your face.

I would like to start off by saying that as far as Im concerned, a show record is the absolute last thing I look for in a stallion prospect. I dont take chances on unproven stallions unless they possess superior conformation. I would rather pay for a higher stud fee on a proven stallion, but as stated earlier there are simply no conformation shots. Based off numerous websites the only thing that breeders are offering to the general public is pretty heads. Sorry, but I cant ride a head!

I know that Arabians are advertised with a certain "style", I get that; but come on. I want the choices that I make to be based off of conformation not who has the prettiest, most expensive ad campaign. I am more than able to travel to see potential prospects but dont want to be let down after traveling to find a sub-par stallion.

I can look at the videos, but I need something I can print off and spread out over the dining room table and compare. This method has served me well in the past, I used to show Quarter Horses in Western Pleasure. I have now been able to focus on my first true love, the Arabian. Unfortunately, do to my family's business in the QH world I had break away to follow my true passion.

I am not ignorant to the horse world nor the Arabian world, just wondering why people will not post confirmation shots.

Thanks in advance for your input.
2mntn
QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 19 2012, 05:09 PM) *
I am just getting started in the Arabian Horse breeding end of the business and I am wondering; where in the world are all the conformation shots?!?!?!? I have only seen a hand full of stallions that show anything from the neck down and those stallions are all moving or there tail is in your face.

I would like to start off by saying that as far as Im concerned, a show record is the absolute last thing I look for in a stallion prospect. I dont take chances on unproven stallions unless they possess superior conformation. I would rather pay for a higher stud fee on a proven stallion, but as stated earlier there are simply no conformation shots. Based off numerous websites the only thing that breeders are offering to the general public is pretty heads. Sorry, but I cant ride a head!

I know that Arabians are advertised with a certain "style", I get that; but come on. I want the choices that I make to be based off of conformation not who has the prettiest, most expensive ad campaign. I am more than able to travel to see potential prospects but dont want to be let down after traveling to find a sub-par stallion.

I can look at the videos, but I need something I can print off and spread out over the dining room table and compare. This method has served me well in the past, I used to show Quarter Horses in Western Pleasure. I have now been able to focus on my first true love, the Arabian. Unfortunately, do to my family's business in the QH world I had break away to follow my true passion.

I am not ignorant to the horse world nor the Arabian world, just wondering why people will not post confirmation shots.

Thanks in advance for your input.


Two reasons: One, confOrmation shots are mostly boring and unimpressive. Two, photos can be very misleading in passing judgment on a horse.
Marilee
This is a great question. Several years ago a friend was looking at several different quarter horse stallions for her mare. I got to see that-----photos all over the kitchen table of the 2 stallions they had singled out, based on performance and production of foals. You could see the conformation (side, full body shots, and photos front and rear--close ups of legs/chest/hind end/gaskins/ stifles/angulation), and then could compare with the mare, to see what strengths and weaknesses MIGHT be there. I think they had seen videos too, not sure if they saw the stallions in person. But I know that years later, with 2 different stallions, with excellent vet work and stallion collection and mare insemination, I got to see 2 foals (to my eyes) each superior to the mare, with the better characteristics of the stallion added, plus they had much better athletic ability than the mare expressed, and very trainable minds. .

That is the ideal, that one can study and then apply your knowledge to the mare, and then hope for an improvement on her, but certainly not one not as good as her, or less than her. The mare does have most of the impact on the foal, but somehow people give far too much credit and blame to the stallion. Also, show record does not always indicate a superior horse. Halter showing should be about comparing a horse to the "standards" of the breed, but often it does not. So seeing side and front and rear shots of a horse, really showing its anatomy/angulation/ proportion/structure (and assuming some geometry and physics here), how it translates into movement and soundness and potential longevity. Photos can be altered, videos can be edited, we know some horses have been surgerically altered, so it is nice to see the truth---the horse before you to compare and judge for yourself. Years ago we did photos of our horses, and those I like today are those which really show the horses as they were, not as they might have been. You must have confidence in your horse and honesty to put that photo out there, and be able to study it yourself and explain it to others, good or bad. I want to see 3 circles of balance (front, middle and rear), and equal strength fore and aft. I want to see an Arabian, but more importantly, a horse with correct comformation/anatomy/proportion, which will stay sound a long time, and which has the potential to be halter AND performance. Photos can help, but it sure is better to see the real horse, to see if the perception matches the reality.
gajustice
QUOTE (2mntn @ Jul 19 2012, 07:35 PM) *
Two reasons: One, confOrmation shots are mostly boring and unimpressive. Two, photos can be very misleading in passing judgment on a horse.

As I stated before I understand the whole showy aspect. Who cares if conformation shots are "boring". Structural integrity is beautiful. Don't they also stand the horses up in a halter class to show their conformation? If photos are misleading then why post them? I've seen glamour shots of an arabian and they only slightly resemble the animal they are meant to portray.
Robert 1
QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 20 2012, 02:05 AM) *
As I stated before I understand the whole showy aspect. Who cares if conformation shots are "boring". Structural integrity is beautiful. Don't they also stand the horses up in a halter class to show their conformation? If photos are misleading then why post them? I've seen glamour shots of an arabian and they only slightly resemble the animal they are meant to portray.

Try looking at * Alaa Jabbar at the top of the classifieds, thanks
gajustice
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 19 2012, 08:15 PM) *
Try looking at * Alaa Jabbar at the top of the classifieds, thanks

Robert 1,

I pressume you mean the first picture of him. Yes this is a nice shot and a well trained eye can see his attributes, but I am speaking from a cut and dry stand point. I am looking for examples more along the lines of Imperial Baareg's conformation shot, directly from the side. Alla Jabbar is beautiful, taking absolutely nothing from him. That photo of him is probably one in a billion.
Maybe I am just behind the times, but I remeber when there were great conformation shots throughout the magazines of yester year. I have hoarded many an AHW and AHT magazine. I just dont understand why people have gotten away from this, as a whole. Thanks for the response.
gajustice
Thank you Marilee for your post. Much appreciated.
Robert 1
QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 20 2012, 02:31 AM) *
Robert 1,

I pressume you mean the first picture of him. Yes this is a nice shot and a well trained eye can see his attributes, but I am speaking from a cut and dry stand point. I am looking for examples more along the lines of Imperial Baareg's conformation shot, directly from the side. Alla Jabbar is beautiful, taking absolutely nothing from him. That photo of him is probably one in a billion.
Maybe I am just behind the times, but I remeber when there were great conformation shots throughout the magazines of yester year. I have hoarded many an AHW and AHT magazine. I just dont understand why people have gotten away from this, as a whole. Thanks for the response.

No sorry, the shot of him is not one in a billion, there have been many shots of him since he was a weanling and they all show the same, and many taken by amatuers with hand held pocket cameras and cell phones, what you see in his pictures is even better in person and this was said by everyoen who have seen and touched him in person.
gajustice
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 19 2012, 09:42 PM) *
No sorry, the shot of him is not one in a billion, there have been many shots of him since he was a weanling and they all show the same, and many taken by amatuers with hand held pocket cameras and cell phones, what you see in his pictures is even better in person and this was said by everyoen who have seen and touched him in person.

I am not speaking only of him when I said one in a billion. I am speaking to the point of my o-r-i-g-i-n-a-l post. There are thousands of pictures taken of stallions that do not show their full conformation. That Robert 1 is what I am speaking of. Speaking of that particular picture, the photographer is not standing directly at the side of him. Of the photos posted, that is the only one that I saw even closely resembling a full on side shot. Thank you for your post, not sure how it was relevant to the OP, but thanks just the same.
northwind
I think most photographers do not like to take them directly from the side?
sgarabians
QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 20 2012, 12:05 AM) *
As I stated before I understand the whole showy aspect. Who cares if conformation shots are "boring". Structural integrity is beautiful. Don't they also stand the horses up in a halter class to show their conformation? If photos are misleading then why post them? I've seen glamour shots of an arabian and they only slightly resemble the animal they are meant to portray.


For many admirers of the breed today 'glamour' seems more important than perfect conformation. We have all seen horses that are slightly less than perfect but which have a certain je ne sais quoi that translates into a quality that negates their physical shortcomings. But todays advertising and promotion is appealing to perhaps more of that perception in the reader/viewer than it is actually appealing to someone looking to assess and make an informed decision. Certainly the editions of AHW of the 80's and 90's illustrated almost universally conformation shots of stallions and show winners and were far more informative to students of the breed - particular those of us half a world away - than any international publications of today IMO.
gajustice
sgarabians,

I couldn't agree with you more!
No stallion or mare is perfect, ask any true horseman. I can, but WILL NOT give out names as this is not a bashing thread; but given the way a few websites have been set up, if I were to breed my mares strictly by what these websites offer video wise, some of these stallions could have 5 legs and be just as cow hocked and no one would know the wiser because the show nothing below the ribs.
It is sad to say that some; again not all, of these websites seem to run off of starlight and fairy dust. These stallions seem to be powder puffs and Im willing to bet the majority of them dont have more than a good week of Sundays saddle sweat on their backs.
Again Im not bashing; it's just seems so much effort has been placed on the Arabian "dream" rather than the Arabian himself. I am only coming into this part of the "horse world" fairly new and no one can deny that other "newbies" are probably seeing things the same way I am.
alythlong
I have to laugh.....it's not just the photographs that many people seem to think are informative!! The whole "show stance" is designed to disguise flaws and make the horse look fantastic!! So you get photos taken from the side, but slightly forward or back as required, and the horse "stood up" to disguise crooked legs, short necks, upright shoulders, weak quarters etc etc as required!! Actually to be brutally honest - it's dishonest!!
BaileyArabians
I think it's only dishonest if you are trying to buy a horse based on conformation, structure and usability. If you are trying to buy a horse with the best artistic photo then you are getting exactly what you want.

I think many modern Arabian owners who show their horses are so far removed from riding that it really doesn't matter to them if they show conformation shots in marketing or have them trained to ride with the idea of usability. They like them because they are pretty, they have someone else take care of them, they train them to look pretty and they sell them as pretty things.

I've seen arabian marketing pictures that just show just an eye, the top of the back and a butthole. What does that tell you? Are these folks dishonest or just in a completely different world than folks who ride and use horses? Why would you post that and think your horse would sell to anyone?

Why would you post that your horse for sale is by two stallions..no mention of a mare line at all. Are you trying to say it's a miracle foal? Why just post that there's an extremely exotic horse for sale with no other information sometimes not even a contact number. Why should buying a horse be some sort of huge mystery???

Here's my ad:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exotic amazing horse for sale, Sired by Nazeer, Dam was Nazeer. see attached picture of eye and butthole. Contact for more information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeeze wonder why they don't sell?


MAXHOPEMIME
When I wan't a reprive from all of the overmade up, hidden behind the bush Arabian stallion pictures I visit the TB farms websites. Every male horse there is presented in a classic conformation shot. The types of pictures you used to see on the walls of horse people.
M.D.
QUOTE (BaileyArabians @ Jul 20 2012, 02:00 PM) *
I think it's only dishonest if you are trying to buy a horse based on conformation, structure and usability. If you are trying to buy a horse with the best artistic photo then you are getting exactly what you want.

I think many modern Arabian owners who show their horses are so far removed from riding that it really doesn't matter to them if they show conformation shots in marketing or have them trained to ride with the idea of usability. They like them because they are pretty, they have someone else take care of them, they train them to look pretty and they sell them as pretty things.

I've seen arabian marketing pictures that just show just an eye, the top of the back and a butthole. What does that tell you? Are these folks dishonest or just in a completely different world than folks who ride and use horses? Why would you post that and think your horse would sell to anyone?

Why would you post that your horse for sale is by two stallions..no mention of a mare line at all. Are you trying to say it's a miracle foal? Why just post that there's an extremely exotic horse for sale with no other information sometimes not even a contact number. Why should buying a horse be some sort of huge mystery???

Here's my ad:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exotic amazing horse for sale, Sired by Nazeer, Dam was Nazeer. see attached picture of eye and butthole. Contact for more information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeeze wonder why they don't sell?


No. Advertising and photography goes hand in hand. Same for the texts. How else are people going to advertise ? Unlesss you, by some unforeseen miracle from the heavens, invent a new and revolutionizing method, to surpass everything known to man ? I want to see that. Show me. Maybe you want to invent words never heard or seen before ?
Maybe you are Superhuman ? The Bionic Something-Something?

They don't sell because potential buyers are to lazy to come to the farm and take a look. And for (some, not all) ornery sellers. It goes both ways. That's why. "I want it fast, fast, fast. It's the Internet-Syndrome. The Me- Generation. The generation that says: "I demand everything to be handed to me on a silver platter.. And please with pink ribbons, too!".

The average run-of-the mill camera does not do it for most. And soon people realize: : Oh ! I need a professional. The one who has got the expertise and the equipment necessary to shoot better pictures than I can.

I am sorry. We need photographers. Hope that helps. Have a good day. And take the time to visit the horses.
gajustice
M.D.,

As stated I have the time and the resources to visit the horses; that's not the problem. The problem is before I travel a few hundred miles and spend the money I would like to know what the horse has to offer me via a (conformational) photo. This method has served and is serving me very well.

There are quite a few photographers who are professionals that know how to take conformation shots; this isn't a new problem I am trying to solve. I am just wondering why no one does this anymore? Is the overall "general" population of advertised stallions' conformation so questionable that they no longer are able to photograph them in this manner, or do they simply think it is unimportant and we should all take their word for it.

Appaloosas, Paints, Quarter Horses, Miniatures...my God, even cows, goats, lhamas and pigs ALL display conformation shots in their advertisements and web pages. I am just wondering, why in this world, the most breathtaking creature the good Lord has ever deemed appropriate to drop on this planet, the "overall" exception.

I left the Quarter Horse industry and my families business in it, to pursue my passion for this extremely poetic creature and the fiery tenacity they possess. I have seen purebred arabians perform and beat-out other breeds in multiple disciplines, multiple times. Most of them seem to showcase their talents with conformation shots and under saddle shots. With the amount of websites offering SE stallions, next to none of them showcase their conformation as it relates to the age old adage, "form-to-function".

I am not meaning to attack or belittle any of these stallions, but before I head off to meet them, I want a little bit of knowledge as to what they truly are.

Thank you to all for the comments and please, if there is an answer to my original post, please......feel free.
MHuprich
i like the conformation shots best but in today's atmosphere, i think you have to have the "artsy" shot for some (not all) people to attract their attention. And many people hae the conformation shots available.

So let your money speak for what you want - if they don't have conformation photos or video - let them know you're going somewhere else to farms that have this available.

I have asked people why they prefer the "artsy" ones - and they have told me that THOSE are the ones that attract customers to their stallions - not the conformation photos.
gajustice
MHuprich,

Fair enough, although I still don't like it. I suppose Im the only one. I just dont see why this information is not made readily available to help people make more informed decisions.
Thank you for posting.

BaileyArabians,

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. The Bedouins, would probably laugh at what the SE, in some part, I SAID SOME; has become. If research tells me anything, (again I am new here), the Arabian was not a "lap dog" to be petted and spoiled. They were treated as equals in some sense. To be admired for their service and hard work; treated well, ...but not pampered.

Someone show me smal, trickling stream of working SE stallions, I am on the hunt for next years "golden crosses" and can't wait to dip my feet in those blissful waters.
Marilee
Just for fun I have looked to see what side shots I can find. On Ansata's website, in foundation stallions part 1, there is a super early photo of *Ansata Ibn Halima++ and one of Ansata Ibn Sudan, both taken by Sparagowski. Also a good one of *Jamilll and a good one of *Ansata Bint Misr. (all side photos). Then going to this website (straightegyptians.com) and going to "pedigrees" and" browse" to start looking alphabetically,..... I see Abenhetep (taken by Johnny Johnston), Abla and then Alaa El Din (taken by James Kline), Anchor Hill Halim, Ansata El Alim (taken by J. Johnston), and Ansata El Shahwan, just to show examples of some fine side full body shots, showing conformation. In the (early) Reference Handbooks put out by The Pyramid Society (who around you might have some for you to see?) there are some great photos of many of the early horses you may be asking about, some of them side shots, some action, some head/neck. I think when a horse is gone, or when you want to really study more about them, then you are correct in having a real side photo (front and rear shots too, but those are rarely taken). Sometimes the horse in the flesh looks just like the photo, other times you cannot believe what you see. I can still remember seeing AK Shah Moniet in Scottsdale in the early 80s, but I took no photo, but still can remember his symmetry, type, and excellent movement under saddle. Went up to Patterson Arabians in Oregon in 1981 (after seeing their full body color ads in the World maybe), and got to see so many horses just standing in their stalls or brought out into the aisle for me or in pasture, and thinking how awesome they all were, and how they looked like their photos-------not one disappointment there. Heard that *El Shaklan was at a show here in Las Vegas, and found him in the barn aisle and asked to see him (when he first came to the US), and he was brought out to show me, and I was allowed to take photos, and I was impressed by his type, the Golden Cross of the *Egyptian and Spanish, and how tall he was and correct, and how cordial the people were to me. Looking at books written by real students of the horse, one can see body/side/conformation photos, so later that person can remember the horse better with their notes or with their mind.

At this year's Breeders' Cup in Las Vegas I was able to go down into the main arena to see several stallions being shown, and that was so interesting, again to compare videos, still shots, pedigrees, ads with each horse as I studied him. Closeups of their feet, legs, shoulders, hips, proportions, behavior, response to handler and to the crowd. That is the point for me, to compare the horse I am interested in, with the horse as it actually is or was. A few years ago I was interested in seeing *OKW Intrigue, and got to go down into the barns to really see him up close and personal,before and after seeing him do a dressage presentation. Also aked to see *Kordelas, and got to see him in and out of his stall downstairs, and then walking around the barn area. I think a horse that is honestly presented is what I want to see, and then I can judge for myself, not going by show wins or by what others have to say or by ads.
sgarabians
QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 20 2012, 10:15 PM) *
MHuprich,

Fair enough, although I still don't like it. I suppose Im the only one. I just dont see why this information is not made readily available to help people make more informed decisions.
Thank you for posting.

BaileyArabians,

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. The Bedouins, would probably laugh at what the SE, in some part, I SAID SOME; has become. If research tells me anything, (again I am new here), the Arabian was not a "lap dog" to be petted and spoiled. They were treated as equals in some sense. To be admired for their service and hard work; treated well, ...but not pampered.

Someone show me smal, trickling stream of working SE stallions, I am on the hunt for next years "golden crosses" and can't wait to dip my feet in those blissful waters.


In part I think the editing staff of magazines are also to blame. They want their copy to be attractive and eye catching so that it sells copies - and much as I hate to do this I refer you back to the comment made by Ray that he like others consider the conformation shot 'boring'. So it also depends somewhat on the audience as well. The ideal of using that pretty eye catching shot to catch the readers attention and stimulate their interest to investigate further is not a bad concept in itself - look at how much car and motorbike advertisings these days focus on some small detail of the vehicle in photo 'grabs' they use that detail as an identifying statement. The fault lies in not having the follow up brochure that shows the vehicle (read here HORSE) in all it's structural detail with specifications and capabilities and performance as car manufacturers all do as a matter of course. And car yards are at least reasonably easy for everyone to get to so as to ascertain the truth or the misconception taken from the advertising. As you say GA I certainly hesitate to travel to see a horse based on an artistic photo - seen way to many disappointments in this country and it's generally time you won't get back! <smile>.

Thoroughbred advertising here at least still relies heavily on the use of primarily either a conformation shot or a shot taken on the track to advertise. While indeed with many breeders of thoroughbreds the stats below the picture are their first point of reference - if there are no stats other than 'half brother to a mare who's grandsire was stabled next to Secretariat' then a shot at least showing what he can offer conformation wise is a good start! lol

Marilee
I've bumped up an old thread about SEs under saddle. There are many discussions and photos on here about certain horses and bloodlines under saddle. Just type in some words or the name of the horse in the search below. Imperial Saturn has a very nice side shot from a while back, and I love the video here (on this website, video/archive) of *Asfour in hand before being turned loose to liberty. Never saw that horse in person, but feel as if that video really captures his conformation, behavior in hand, and movement. Usually when I see good movement (either English or Western), I am really intrigued and study that horse, and see good conformation (3 circles) and a short strong back. Another example, I got to see *GG Samir several times here, and have also seen lots of get of sire over the years under saddle, and he produced very athletic horses. He to me was a very symmetrical horse, with a great work ethic. Many of the early SE horses I saw in the 80s, I did not get my own photos of, but got to see them up close, and really quietly, not all hyped up, but standing on all fours, for study, and I saw the same thing that I liked, shorter backs and deep hips/croups and chests, good angle of shoulders and hips, but also Arabian type that I had not seen before. ET Crown Prince, AK El Maalouf, El Halimaar, Serr Maariner.......I will think of more.

I admire your passion and clarity of ideas. You are already a great student to ask so many questions and to question what you see and hear. .
gajustice
Marilee,

This should be true of all breeders.
gajustice
Marilee,

Also to add, you see what I am saying. All the great stallions, of days gone by, had these shots. They were something to be proud of. These breeders were not led by the public, they did the leading. They took it upon themselves to educate the masses and show what true Arabians should look like.

Where are these leaders of industry now? They advertised this way because that was the most dependable way to sell a product. Im not against the "glitzy and glamorous" but now that the internet is so readily available one would pressume stallion owners would want the world to see their gorgeous, structurally correct stallions to be considered for breeding purposes.
Marilee
I think the thing is that each of us has our own preferences for what we like. I have learned that over time,....through study of horses and bloodlines and pedigrees .....to see which horses seem to follow a higher percentage of that "look" I prefer. But there are lots of exceptions, and sometimes I will see a horse that should not look a certain way but does, or should not produce a certain way (good or bad), but does. One quote I love, from Judith Forbis, is "the plainer mare (sister) can be the better producer". When I studied Ansata Delilah, I went backwards to *Ansata Bint Misr, and then forward to Ansata Samantha and Ansata Samaria. I really liked the A. Delilah foals (male and female), but also her ancestors and her future generations. Seeing 4 generations of mares at Ansata in 1985, and likewise studying several generations of horses at the Tone Ranch (Fadjur), confirmed that the mares usually are the creators of the horse's structure, type, and movement, and yet the stallions continue to receive all the credit and the advertisements. So when I still see all the stallion futurities and auctions and promotions, I know that one should really have a great mare to start with, and really study that stallion a lot. You do not always get what you pay for.
gajustice
THE COVENANT AE has a photo displayed by the breeders that resembles the conformation shots I am speaking of. I can better make an informed decision about this stallion before I make the trip to see him.

Thank you all in advance for your posts, keep them coming.
Georgia
Back in the day that is how it used to be! beautiful conformational shots. google, Morafic, Ibn Morafic, El Mareehk, Asaad, Nabiel...Hossny, Serenity Sonbohl (sp) Ray help me out here.
butchered her name. brain is gone.

several years ago there was a new proven stallion on the market, Proven breeding wise and proformance as well. I got a DVD. it was Beautiful, but all show and blow. no horse. just mane and tail and body parts of this or that of the horse. it wasn't until he was on RFDTV getting a bath and just being a horse that I went wow!. why don't they want to show off something this splendid. beats me. I had pitched the video.

2mntn
QUOTE (Georgia @ Jul 20 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Back in the day that is how it used to be! beautiful conformational shots. google, Morafic, Ibn Morafic, El Mareehk, Asaad, Nabiel...Hossny, Serenity Sonbohl (sp) Ray help me out here.
butchered her name. brain is gone.

several years ago there was a new proven stallion on the market, Proven breeding wise and proformance as well. I got a DVD. it was Beautiful, but all show and blow. no horse. just mane and tail and body parts of this or that of the horse. it wasn't until he was on RFDTV getting a bath and just being a horse that I went wow!. why don't they want to show off something this splendid. beats me. I had pitched the video.


Hi Georgia,

Serenity Sonbolah. Many of the photos by Johnny Johnston were great side-view conformation shots - some could have been better for conformation use, but most were stood up in a fairly relaxed pose. There are many of his photos here in the "Photos and Pedigrees" section, including a couple of the incomparable Serenity Sonbolah. smile.gif
Robert 1
First off, it is very hard for even the professional photographers to get great pictures of the Arabian horse, so they lean towards a isometric picture which shows as many views in one as possible. The old time pictures are very hard to judge a horse from because you would need a serries of pictures to show so each person can look at what they prefer in an Arabioan horse, such as legs, head, body and presence, this would take several pages of pictures to answer everyones questions about one particular horse. The really great horses as you mentioned from yesteryear along with the new ones of todays modern world, have many pictures out there if you search the internet. The one picture is to catch someones eye that is looking for a new prospect wether it be a mare or stallion and then look much further into the horse. Yes! the mare is important in breeding and I don't believe anyone says different but, it is the stallion that places the frontend on a foal, head, neck and frontend, the mare is there to maintain the body and structure of the foal. Even a great stallion like some that have been mentioned and named can't make the best foal with a so so mare. It is like if a scale of one to ten is placed on a horse and you rank the stallion at a six and the mare at a four how can one expect the resulting foal to be more than a what either horse is ranked at in your mind and judgement. So many say that breeding foals is like a crap shoot.LOL then why do the expierenced breeders keep coming up with the great foals, it is not the expierence but, more that they pick a very good mare and then search for a really good stallion that is within the same lines which will complement each other when mated.Not every stallion or mare is a true breeding horse no matter how beautiful and correct in conformation, they need to be breed for breeding. Many show horses are outstanding and command big bucks and this is a big haleluagh.. for them but, some of them can't produce what they are no matter how often and who they are bred to.
In essence the best thing about the old times is more horse people went and saw the horses in person or attended the shows to see them being showen, ridden and handled, seems now with the age of the internet many seem to be in a hurry and don't spend the time to go and LOOK for themselves. And Oh Yes, the first time breeder can produce that high quality foal just as well as the big farms, simply take your time and don't settle for LESS than what you originally started out LOOKING for in a horse.
MHuprich
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 21 2012, 01:23 PM) *
...Yes! the mare is important in breeding and I don't believe anyone says different but, it is the stallion that places the frontend on a foal, head, neck and frontend, the mare is there to maintain the body and structure of the foal. ...


Are you saying the stallion's genes affect different parts of the foal than the genes from the mare? Please share your source for this, thanks.
Robert 1
You seem to me, that you want to base this all on scientific research with that answer, simple, if it were just the genes and I will say here and now genes are extremly important but, a not all. Full brothers or sisters...why don't they look alike and produce the same when and if ever they look alike. A person must look at what stands before them when they look at any horse, not just genes or pedigree, they are the begining only.
MHuprich
I agree that you have to look at the horse in front of you, and the pedigree. My question was on your statement that the sire's genes affected different parts of the foal than the mare's genes do. Your statement is "... it is the stallion that places the frontend on a foal, head, neck and frontend, the mare is there to maintain the body and structure of the foal. ..."

I asked what your source is for your comment on the genetic split between the stallion's genes and the mare's genes, as to which go to which part of the foal. I'm asking for the science in this.
Dieter
It is a perfectly reasonable request to see conformation photos before spending time and money to visit any stallion at stud, which I believe every breeder should do before committing to breed a mare to him. Here are examples of photos that I'd like to see posted on every website offering a stallion at stud:
Robert 1
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Jul 21 2012, 07:04 PM) *
I agree that you have to look at the horse in front of you, and the pedigree. My question was on your statement that the sire's genes affected different parts of the foal than the mare's genes do. Your statement is "... it is the stallion that places the frontend on a foal, head, neck and frontend, the mare is there to maintain the body and structure of the foal. ..."

I asked what your source is for your comment on the genetic split between the stallion's genes and the mare's genes, as to which go to which part of the foal. I'm asking for the science in this.

The old saying, (Remember where you are) comes to mind.
We are talking about breeding horses out at the barn and not about being in a hospital with doctors and nurses breeding the horses.
I'll give you a few quick examples, Ansata breeding horses for over fifty years, with the begining of there imported stallion* Ansata Ibn Halima, they breed many horses to him but, they sell and keep Ansata Sudann, because they say he (mirrors his sires image) his face looks likes his sires.
Dr. Nagel breeds NK Hafid Jamil, he keeps the son, stallion NK Jamel El Dine, he represents his sire in looks.
Richard Pritzlaff breeds about a hundred horses, he keeps the colts that represent his sire to continue what he first liked in the original sire.
Look, I have been around horses for about 65 of my 70 years and have looked at many horses in my day, and maybe could even write a small book about gennetics and the X and the Y factors in horses, as long as it wasn't over three pages LOL. besides and anyone can google search any of that off the internet.
Start with the pedigree, see the relatives, then choose the mating carefully after finding what you started out looking for by having the horses stand in front of your eyes.
IMO This is what horse breeding is all about.
MHuprich
Will you answer my question? Thanks
Robert 1
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Jul 21 2012, 07:35 PM) *
Will you answer my question? Thanks

I did....it just wasn't what you wanted to hear.
MHuprich
You talked about certain farms' breeding philosphies on how they decided which of their stallions' many foals to keep.
Robert 1
QUOTE (MHuprich @ Jul 21 2012, 07:49 PM) *
You talked about certain farms' breeding philosphies on how they decided which of their stallions' many foals to keep.

Look, IMO, I base my ideas on having been around and seeing many horses in my long life time., and once again my post on this is only my opinion.
And if you wish to base your ideas on scientific results that is perfectly fine, your welcome to do so, everyone has the right to their own ideas on how to breed arabian horses.
alythlong
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 21 2012, 07:23 PM) *
Yes! the mare is important in breeding and I don't believe anyone says different but, it is the stallion that places the frontend on a foal, head, neck and frontend, the mare is there to maintain the body and structure of the foal. Even a great stallion like some that have been mentioned and named can't make the best foal with a so so mare. It is like if a scale of one to ten is placed on a horse and you rank the stallion at a six and the mare at a four how can one expect the resulting foal to be more than a what either horse is ranked at in your mind and judgement. So many say that breeding foals is like a crap shoot.LOL then why do the expierenced breeders keep coming up with the great foals, it is not the expierence but, more that they pick a very good mare and then search for a really good stallion that is within the same lines which will complement each other when mated.Not every stallion or mare is a true breeding horse no matter how beautiful and correct in conformation, they need to be breed for breeding. Many show horses are outstanding and command big bucks and this is a big haleluagh.. for them but, some of them can't produce what they are no matter how often and who they are bred to.
In essence the best thing about the old times is more horse people went and saw the horses in person or attended the shows to see them being showen, ridden and handled, seems now with the age of the internet many seem to be in a hurry and don't spend the time to go and LOOK for themselves. And Oh Yes, the first time breeder can produce that high quality foal just as well as the big farms, simply take your time and don't settle for LESS than what you originally started out LOOKING for in a horse.



I cannot agree with that starting statement......You forget that we are dealing with pairs of genes - dominant and recessive - and a great many pairs in the case of horses - and at fertilization it is a random mating that takes place giving each full brother and sister a different mixture of genes. If a stallion or mare is homoqygous for a trait then he or she will pass that on, but it will be linked with other genes to produce a unique mixture in the foal. Breeders are trying to find a stallion that will compliment the mare - be strong in her weak points and for the mare to be strong in the stallions weak points - remember the perfect horse has yet to be born so even the best stallions have flaws.....the easiest geness to study are the colour genes and you can see how confused people get over this one feature (a group of genes that produce a characteristic that everyone can see!) So the study of other features, for example sickle hocks is more difficult. I cannot believe that the stallion is the one the controls those features you listed - those features are controlled by PAIRS of genes, one gene from each parent...
Robert 1
QUOTE (alythlong @ Jul 21 2012, 09:42 PM) *
I cannot agree with that starting statement......You forget that we are dealing with pairs of genes - dominant and recessive - and a great many pairs in the case of horses - and at fertilization it is a random mating that takes place giving each full brother and sister a different mixture of genes. If a stallion or mare is homoqygous for a trait then he or she will pass that on, but it will be linked with other genes to produce a unique mixture in the foal. Breeders are trying to find a stallion that will compliment the mare - be strong in her weak points and for the mare to be strong in the stallions weak points - remember the perfect horse has yet to be born so even the best stallions have flaws.....the easiest geness to study are the colour genes and you can see how confused people get over this one feature (a group of genes that produce a characteristic that everyone can see!) So the study of other features, for example sickle hocks is more difficult. I cannot believe that the stallion is the one the controls those features you listed - those features are controlled by PAIRS of genes, one gene from each parent...

Of course even the best stallions have flaws (you left out) and so does the best mares. And of course from a scientific point of view (nothing is perfect) but all arabians have good looks or they wouldn't demonstrate the arabian horse appearence to a persons eye, it's just that some are better than others.
At fertilization it is a random mating that takes place giving each full brother and sister a different mixture of genes..... then what is scientific about it? answer ..nothing that is why pedigrees are a begining and not a guaranted result, as I said to begin with, the gennetics of a horses makeup allows them to produce a certain type of look, all arabian horses can but, some more so than others.
ELAcrisi
ZITAT(Robert 1 @ Jul 21 2012, 09:05 PM) *
Look, IMO, I base my ideas on having been around and seeing many horses in my long life time., and once again my post on this is only my opinion.
And if you wish to base your ideas on scientific results that is perfectly fine, your welcome to do so, everyone has the right to their own ideas on how to breed arabian horses.


I have not made the same experience and also never heard before just seen in situations when just the head is important for the breeder that the rest is negotiated and after some generations this will be the result - a nice head (easyest to breed) and a crappy body and/or legs - and than it's the mare? You don't mean this seriously?
Robert 1
QUOTE (ELAcrisi @ Jul 22 2012, 11:03 AM) *
I have not made the same experience and also never heard before just seen in situations when just the head is important for the breeder that the rest is negotiated and after some generations this will be the result - a nice head (easyest to breed) and a crappy body and/or legs - and than it's the mare? You don't mean this seriously?

ELAcrisi, Of course not, why would you do or feel the same as my ideas, each to their own.
Now why is this pretty head thing coming into play?
what is your thoughts when you say....as to ...a nice head (easyest to breed) etc.
tracek
Referring to the original post -

I think that a lot of people get swept up in the hype and romance that is so often attached to the Arabian horse. I also think there is a certain amount of 'keeping up with the Joneses' in advertising as well. This can be a trap for people who base their breeding decisions based solely on advertising. I guess a lot of people use an arty or eyecatching photo to draw the viewer in and to attract interest - it is then up to the mare owners to seek out the details they need to make a breeding decision.

Breeders need to do a lot of research and a breeding decision is influenced by many factors. I don't think it is unreasonable to request conformation shots and videos of a prospective stallion prior to visiting - especially if there is some distance involved.

In saying that, I do think it can make decision making much easier if there are conformation photos or video available on a website or other source of advertising.
MHuprich
I agree - you need to see the stallion in person, and hopefully not just at a show. Get a good look at him and his personality. See his foals and see THEIR dams.

I have not (yet) bred to a stallion I have not seen in person, in his home environment.
ELAcrisi
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 21 2012, 01:23 PM)

...Yes! the mare is important in breeding and I don't believe anyone says different but, it is the stallion that places the frontend on a foal, head, neck and frontend, the mare is there to maintain the body and structure of the foal. ..


I was referring to this point
gajustice
Thank you all for your posts, both on topic and not so much.

I understand the eye-catching photos to draw someone in. I visit every single stallion in person, some I have travelled overseas to see, mind you this was dealing with Quarter Horses, but a stallion viewing is a stallion viewing. I have looked numerous times on numerous websites to the point of exhaustion, trying to find any conformation shots; on the stallions that caught my eye or their offspring at the shows. I have a small memo pad that is glued to my shirt pocket and I use it every chance I get. I then "try" to do research on these stallions and their show credentials and that of their progeny are very substantial, but I am let down when conformationally nothing is shown in regards to their body or how it relates to their "type".

I have purchased two very well conformed SE mares. While they are both pleasing to the eye granted they are not very refined, but they both have very good overall conformation and are not too "extreme" in any particular aspect. They both have heads like princesses and butts like washer women. Straight legs but not too up in their pasterns. Solid backs but not tabletop smooth. Wonderful examples of the arabian mare and what I deem acceptable.

My question to the BREEDERS and MAMAGERS of stallions is why are they not making this information readily available. If the goal is to fill the books with the best mares possible, wouldn't you want someone to make a decision to bring their mare or request semen from that stallion with the knowledge that they were able to make that decision based off the most pertinent information.

As I have said before, travelling for me is not an option, it is something that has to be done. However, I could not always say that. When I first hung out my breeding shingle in the Quarter Horse world I couldn't haul my mare or take the added expense to drive across country to see a stallion and his offspring only to be let down by what I thought was a superior individual. Conformation shots was what I based a good percentage of my decisions upon, most served me very well.

Now that I have dove into the Arabian world, marketing IS a little different. Not worse, just different. I only seek to use these conformational shots as tools. Why not post them? Why not give breeders every opportunity to make their stallion the choice for those mares. It is just puzzling to me. Since this is a predominantly "SE" forum, I must add that the SE group is one of the worst forthcoming with this information...why? So your stallion and mare can standup pretty in an arena but how come their is nothing in their credentials about what they can do as horses.

Your stallion or his offspring has won unanimous halter championships at the EEvent. So. Can the horse perform; and I dont mean show off, which is all well and good, but can they carry a rider;......just in case a neighboring tribe attacks!

I became a part of the Straight Egyptian family, to be honest-because of their heritage. They shaped every other strain not to mention every other breed. They are remarkable beyond belief, but if all they can do is trot around the ring on the end of a show lead then what have we become. By this I mean the stallions. Stallions like Huckleberry Bey, Aladdinn, Khemosabi, Bey Shah, Triften, Sundance Kid V, Exxpectation, PC Pssoul, etc., etc., have all made names for themselves as halter sires as well as performance sires. Where are the SE sires that perform, are they all halter decorations?

I mean ABSOLUTELY no disrespect as some breeders have forgotten more than I will ever know, but why are things so different with the SE stallions and mares. For the obvious vast majority I dont see where they excel in anything other than halter. I am not at my wits end and ready to give up, but there has to be a logical explanation for this.

I have asked four breeders, two here and two overseas for information regarding their stallions conformation and they all used the word exceptional. Not at the same point in the conversations but they all did use that particular word. Upon requesting conformation shots only one hastly; over-nighted me seven professional pictures and one breeder didnt understand why I requested this information (that breeder was here in the US). Why? Why? Why? Why?!?
2mntn
QUOTE (gajustice @ Jul 23 2012, 03:48 PM) *
Thank you all for your posts, both on topic and not so much.

I understand the eye-catching photos to draw someone in. I visit every single stallion in person, some I have travelled overseas to see, mind you this was dealing with Quarter Horses, but a stallion viewing is a stallion viewing. I have looked numerous times on numerous websites to the point of exhaustion, trying to find any conformation shots; on the stallions that caught my eye or their offspring at the shows. I have a small memo pad that is glued to my shirt pocket and I use it every chance I get. I then "try" to do research on these stallions and their show credentials and that of their progeny are very substantial, but I am let down when conformationally nothing is shown in regards to their body or how it relates to their "type".

I have purchased two very well conformed SE mares. While they are both pleasing to the eye granted they are not very refined, but they both have very good overall conformation and are not too "extreme" in any particular aspect. They both have heads like princesses and butts like washer women. Straight legs but not too up in their pasterns. Solid backs but not tabletop smooth. Wonderful examples of the arabian mare and what I deem acceptable.

My question to the BREEDERS and MAMAGERS of stallions is why are they not making this information readily available. If the goal is to fill the books with the best mares possible, wouldn't you want someone to make a decision to bring their mare or request semen from that stallion with the knowledge that they were able to make that decision based off the most pertinent information.

As I have said before, travelling for me is not an option, it is something that has to be done. However, I could not always say that. When I first hung out my breeding shingle in the Quarter Horse world I couldn't haul my mare or take the added expense to drive across country to see a stallion and his offspring only to be let down by what I thought was a superior individual. Conformation shots was what I based a good percentage of my decisions upon, most served me very well.

Now that I have dove into the Arabian world, marketing IS a little different. Not worse, just different. I only seek to use these conformational shots as tools. Why not post them? Why not give breeders every opportunity to make their stallion the choice for those mares. It is just puzzling to me. Since this is a predominantly "SE" forum, I must add that the SE group is one of the worst forthcoming with this information...why? So your stallion and mare can standup pretty in an arena but how come their is nothing in their credentials about what they can do as horses.

Your stallion or his offspring has won unanimous halter championships at the EEvent. So. Can the horse perform; and I dont mean show off, which is all well and good, but can they carry a rider;......just in case a neighboring tribe attacks!

I became a part of the Straight Egyptian family, to be honest-because of their heritage. They shaped every other strain not to mention every other breed. They are remarkable beyond belief, but if all they can do is trot around the ring on the end of a show lead then what have we become. By this I mean the stallions. Stallions like Huckleberry Bey, Aladdinn, Khemosabi, Bey Shah, Triften, Sundance Kid V, Exxpectation, PC Pssoul, etc., etc., have all made names for themselves as halter sires as well as performance sires. Where are the SE sires that perform, are they all halter decorations?

I mean ABSOLUTELY no disrespect as some breeders have forgotten more than I will ever know, but why are things so different with the SE stallions and mares. For the obvious vast majority I dont see where they excel in anything other than halter. I am not at my wits end and ready to give up, but there has to be a logical explanation for this.

I have asked four breeders, two here and two overseas for information regarding their stallions conformation and they all used the word exceptional. Not at the same point in the conversations but they all did use that particular word. Upon requesting conformation shots only one hastly; over-nighted me seven professional pictures and one breeder didnt understand why I requested this information (that breeder was here in the US). Why? Why? Why? Why?!?


Well, I can give you the answer from my perspective. I'm not in the "business" of breeding other people's mares. I will, by natural service, but I'm not going to invite the extra drama and headache that comes with doing outside breeding. I have the stallions I have (and they are also quite exceptional, if I do say so myself) because I need them to go with my mares, not someone else's. So I put up a few casual photos on my website, without a care in the world as to what anyone else thinks about the angles and the light and the pose or whatever. The SE sires that perform are here at my place - mares also... smile.gif
Marilee
"heads like princesses and butts like washer-women"----- wub.gif

well, you are pretty smart already, and some who have stallions are not ready or able to answer your questions, or their stallions do not measure up to what you are looking for.

They are out there. Most do not do a lot of bragging. They just let the horse do the talking for them. Imperial Saturn (halter and performance), Asami Ruuh, Akid Geshan, *Orashan, *Asfour (Australia, but great movement there), Serr Maariner lines, Masada _______ (the grey horse who did well this year), Halleluyah MH (love his bloodlines and his wonderful type, balance, and movement), Amin____, Ansata Ken Rashik, Ansata El Shahraf (saw 4 generations of his dam line), Baraka Aziz (look for the mares Akid Bint El Sareei and Baraka Fairuz), Hansi's stallions, Egypt's Silverhawk......I will keep thinking of SE horses with great movement I have admired..... Prince Rex--conformation shot--love his tail female line.

Hearing and meeting Cynthia Culbertson here at the seminar at the World Cup in Las Vegas in April was amazing for me. She was so inspiring, for her knowledge, and belief that performance and athletic ability and behavior of the horse are critical elements, which to her need to be sought out and maintained by the breeders/owners of the Arabian horse. And that breeders should NEVER SINGLE OUT any one characteristic AT THE EXPENSE OF THE WHOLE HORSE. I took a lot of notes and perhaps will get around to posting them on the internet for others to enjoy. I recommend others hear her speak. She is great,..... to combine the knowledge of the past, with what is going on now in the show ring, with what should be sought out in the future.............
gajustice
Marilee,

These are the stallions that I need to get to know. Based off of the information that I have been able to gather on my own, your statement is "the only bell I hear ringing" concerning the stallions of today and what they have to offer.

Thank you for your post. Most appreciated.
Robert 1
QUOTE (ELAcrisi @ Jul 23 2012, 06:46 PM) *
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 21 2012, 01:23 PM)

...Yes! the mare is important in breeding and I don't believe anyone says different but, it is the stallion that places the frontend on a foal, head, neck and frontend, the mare is there to maintain the body and structure of the foal. ..


I was referring to this point

Apparently you disagree, so explain your position on the mating and what you feel happens, when you breed a nice looking mare to a stallion with a plain head, meaning high set eyes that are to small, long ears and a straight profile with small nostrils, lowset thick neck and tied in..in the front legs?
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