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Guest_KS
deutschfahne.gif
Ich habe gerade in der AHRA-Online DataSource (www.arabianhorses.org) festgestellt, dass man bei EXORCHORDA den aegyptischen Zuechter "RAS" gestrichen hat. Es gibt gar keine Zuechterangabe mehr.
Sie ist demnach - per Definition der Pyramid Society - nicht mehr Straight Egyptian. So wie Hansi Heck-Melnyk immer wieder betont hat.

Straight Egyptian ist ein arabisches Pferd doch nur dann, wenn es von anerkannten aegyptischen Zuechtern und Zuchtlinien kommt (RAS, EAO, Inshass, Polizei Kairo, Albadeia, Hamdan Stables und El Sherif).

Das würde in der Konsequenz ja möglicherweise mehr als 1000 Nachkommen betreffen!
Weiss jemand, was nun geschieht oder geschehen muss?
Korrigiert die Pyramid Society nun ihre Angaben?
Vielleicht klaert sich diese unendliche Geschichte ja nun endgueltig auf.

gbfahne.gif
I just noticed in the Online-DataSource of the AHRA (www.arabianhorses.org) that the breeder "RAS" was removed as breeder of "EXORCHORDA". No breeder at all is shown.
Therefore, by definition of the Pyramid Society she is not a Straight Egyptian anymore as Hansi Heck-Melnyk for many times insisted.

A straight Egyptian Arabian can only be one if the breeder/bloodlines come from the RAS, EAO, Inshass, Police Collegue Cairo, Albadeia, Hamdan Stables and El Sherif.

This means that possibly more than 1000 SE's offspring are involved.
Does anybody know what will happen now?
Will the Pyramid Society correct their registrations?
Hopefully this nerverending story will be cleared up.
HLM
HI guest KS

yes, you are correct, the breeder has been removed, and no breeder is shown, based on the original import documentation. Apparently the AHRa is doeing corrections based on facts. However, those who are interested to know, the mare is an "Asil" Mare , by her sire and dam as stated in the Agricultural Health certificate.
She is also remains an Asil Club Mare. So nothing is lost, I guess, except may be a label?

Hansi
HLM
Hi everybody

I have been thinking about this issue strongly.
those who have my Straight Egyptian Index will read
"If Exochorda is in, so must "Kars"?

those who have both bloodlines might wish to get together and form some form of a petition for the Pyramid Society, asking them to make an "Agenda" in which the bloodlines through "Exochorda" is accepted as a sub-list Straight Egyptian, provided that "Kars" receives the same treatment. Te latter would provide all the "Rabanna" offspring, which would qualify with the rest of their pedigree also beeing entered in the Agenda.
It for sure would make Richard Pritzlaff smile down from heaven, FINALLY, AND MAKE WRONG THINGS RIGHT!!

If you all succeed in this, than my 30years of work on the issue was NOT IN VAIN, if it matters. If you all need any help, call on me, I be at your side. And I dont even have the bloodlines.

Have a great evening
Hansi
PS Breeder
Whoever wrote this is obviously not familiar with the Pyramid Society. Exochorda is Straight Egyptian, always has been and of course still is. Anyone who questions this only has to pick up the phone and call the PS office and ask. Gratnted, that isn't nearly as exciting as creating internet rumors but it is so much more ethical and responsible.

Since the poster who wrote this went to the trouble of checking the datasouce to look for the breeder's name, the question itself is very surprising since the answer is right there on that very same page. Here is the exact information from the AHRA datasource:
"*EXOCHORDA - AHR*816

Foal Date 01 Jan 1924
Color Chestnut
Gender Mare
Sire AIGLON
EGYPT*185
Dam LEILA
EGYPT*186
Dam's Sire
Status Presumed Deceased 02 Jul 1981
Breeder
Owners HENRY HERBERMANN 01-January-1930

Groups
The Pyramid Society: Straight Egyptian "

Note that the sire's designation is EGYPT, the dam's designation is EGYPT, and the mare (*Exochorda's) designation is Pyramid Society: Straight Egyptian.
That's about as clear and definite as it can be. Mrs. Heck seems to have some very strong opinions on a multitude of subjects, many which defy recognized facts. Oh well. Opinions are only opinions and rational or not, everyone is entitled to one. Informed people recognize that only the *real* authorities get to make the rules, and in the case of Straight Egy[ptians, that's the Pyramid Society, not Mrs. Heck. The Pyramid Society doesn't require the exact name of the breeder or the exact place of birth, never has. If it did, no one in the world would own a SE because there would be no such thing. All of them have ancestors with this very information missing, and more, as Mrs. Heck knows.
Guest
QUOTE (Guest_KS @ May 1 2003, 11:04 PM)
A straight Egyptian Arabian can only be one if the breeder/bloodlines come from the RAS, EAO, Inshass, Police Collegue Cairo, Albadeia, Hamdan Stables and El Sherif.

No, this statement is completely wrong. No where does the Pyramid Society rules ever state this. Get the Pyramid Society Manual and you will see. This was already discussed not too long back. All the private breeders in Egypt were included, big or small. You are leaving out some of the most important once too.
HLM
Well, I am very familiar with the Pyramid Society rules.
I am a founder of it.

the breeder has been elimited out of the CDROM, because the breeder is unknown, so is the country of birth referring to original import documents, of which I and other researchers have copies.. Both parents were imported to Egypt and returned to another country after racing. THESE ARE FACTS.
I feel certain that the AHRa will also correct this, as their are trying to do their best in correcting errors now.

Furthermore, all owners/breeders who own a straight egpytian, bloolines originating from the seven lines, as mentioned by that guest KS, is absolutely correct.
the many new wonderful breeders in Egypt and other countries have offspring of bloodlines stated. These came after the creation of the PS.

I made a sincere recommendation, and find it strange that this is not fully recognized or understood.
Every country has their own laws, we have this here too, namely for lack of disclosure, misrepresentation, etc.etc.
My suggestion would prevent many a problem and everybody would be happy.

there are only few SE offspring through Kars alive.
Many more through Exochorda. So I think all parties who now make fun of this, better do some tall thinking.
Unless of course, you agree with misrepresentation, causing harm.

I feel, that there is nothing one can not discuss intelligently and come to a proper conclusion, serving the public in ethics and honesty.

Have a nice evening
Hansi
HLM
HI PS Breeder
O yes, the Pyramid Society indeed had to know the breeders name/or the owners name such as RAS,EAO,Inshass, albadeia, Hamdan, Police College ,El sherif Stud.and their predecessors. That should be absolutely clear to all SE breeders. Or are people buying an Se Arabian because a seller says so??? I have come across advertisment were Non-SE's were offered as "SE's.

this has nothing to do with imports made by such breeders , which are in many of all our pedigrees.
these imports did not return to their country of origin either.
these imports were incorporated in their breeding programs . therefore, please do not confuse the issue.
I am a bit astonished at what you are stating as an Se breeder. I was under the impression that all SE breeders/owners know how the Pyramid society was established and the rules thereof.

It is quite possible that the PS does not know as yet that the AHRa correctly corrected the status of the mare in question. they originally made an honest error, Raswan picked it up, Judi forbis did not check it out what Walter Schimanski put together, and this is how the problem started. If some of you are unwilling to understand this, I can not help. I suggest you go to the Registry and look at the import documents and then conclude. I am convinced that Judi Forbis did not realize the error when the foundation list was put together, otherwise she would have never permitted it. you also need to remember, that only particular bloodlines were incorporated, and the mare does not belong to either one, because the RAS did not breed her and nobody knows who did or where she came from..

the field "Breeder" is left empty -CDROM
the Field Owner" shows Herberman. Please read it correctly and do not go on a fishing trip..
.

Hansi
Pyramid Society Breeder
QUOTE (HLM @ May 2 2003, 03:28 AM)
Well, I am very familiar with the Pyramid Society rules.
I am a founder of it.

Mrs. Heck seems to be the only person who is under the impression that she was a founder of the Pyramid Society. Strange, you'd really think that Judi Forbis and Doug Marshall would know about that, but they disagree. Hmmm.

If no breeder listed for Exochorda could mean disqualification as Straight Egyptian, think of what could happen to poor El Dere! How many thousands of Arabians would no longer qualify as Straight Egyptian if these interpretations were correct! Not to worry, they aren't. Since the AHRA datasource is being quoted as the authority, I did a search for El Dere. Here is what is listed:

EL DERE - RAS*20

Foal Date
Color Grey
Gender Stallion
Sire Desert Bred
Dam Desert Bred
Dam's Sire
Studbook
Reference
Volume 1 Page 0
Breeder
Owners

Groups
The Pyramid Society: Straight Egyptian"

That's alot of empty spaces. Yet El Dere is still identified as Straight Egyptian. Imagine that. Pretty conclusive evidence regarding the Pyramid Society's requirement for specific breeder information. Exochroda's country of birth is Egypt of course, as shown in the datasource and all other records,
many people have copies of the orginal import documents.
Very easy to check out. The stories do seem to get more *creative* with the telling! Since so many people now have access to official information, you'd think the silly storytelling would stop since it reflects so badly on the storyteller. Aren't there better things to do with precious time?
Breeder
QUOTE (HLM @ May 2 2003, 03:28 AM)
the breeder has been elimited out of the CDROM, because the breeder is unknown, so is the country of birth referring to original import documents, of which I and other researchers have copies.. Both parents were imported to Egypt and returned to another country after racing. THESE ARE FACTS.
I feel certain that the AHRa will also correct this, as their are trying to do their best in correcting errors now.

hansi- my stallion is a STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN Simeon Shai son. You are making claims that hurt me and my stallion and I have the right to know exactly what, if anything, you have to back them up. You claim to have documents that prove that Exochorda was not born in Egypt and you say that both of her parents were shipped out of the country after racing. What country? What date? Where did they go and who did they go to? What stud books are they listed in? I want you to post copies of those documents you say you and other researchers have. How come you're the only one who ever says this? You say they are FACTS. Facts can be easily proven. I demand that you provide the proof of what you are calling facts on this forum now. Don't say you don't know how to do it. You can fax them to someone who can post them for you with no problem. Time to put up or shut up.
reluctant2
Dear Breeder,
she has been asked to do exactly that many times in the past, beginning in the mid 1990s and to this date nothing she has stated has been addressed. The answer will consist of a diatribe and an exhortation of her qualifications as a true blue researcher who only wants to prevent "hurts" to those newcomers who may be affected????? The fact that her manufactured "hurts" are a grasp at attention so a throne may be occupied and respect demanded, for we as little peope should not dare to question such a learned aged person???
Same Old, Same Old, Over and Over, she convinces some dolt to reopen the issue. Personally, she is beneath contempt and now for me, has become an object of pity......after all loneliness also suffers................how much she could contribute if the vindictiveness faded into the past?????????
JAL
Guest_KS
Yes
I think the AHRA is a trustable data source.
I think also they only change data by proven documents.
So this is what I asked for. Information, documents and consequences on the base of accepted rules.
A. S. Smith- Guest
It's okay KS... Listen to officials of these organizations like Mrs. Forbis, read the official publications and look to what and whom the major magazines publish. There is a lot of paranoid nonsense that is best ignored. Goodness knows that this dead horse Exochorda keeps getting whipped...am amazed there is anything left to flay. And even more amazed by who responds.
PS Breeder
QUOTE (Guest_KS @ May 2 2003, 08:45 AM)
Yes
I think the AHRA is a trustable data source.
I think also they only change data by proven documents.
So this is what I asked for. Information, documents and consequences on the base of accepted rules.

KS, I feel that the AHRA Datasource is reliable too, although it does contain many errors. The problem is not in trusting the datasource, it is that you've draw the wrong conclusion based on the data. The contention that the lack of these details effects the qualification as Straight Egyptian is just plain incorrect. Isn't that obvious? It is as clear as the nose on your face, just READ the data. The contrast between the information for Exochorda and no information on El Dere is hard to ignore. It is even harder to ignore the fact that the same page shows them both as Pyramid Society Straight Egyptian. I can't understand why anyone would take the word of Mrs. Heck who has never had any authority in connection with the Pyramid Society instead of the Registry or the Pyramid Society itself, not for a blinking second! Pick up the phone! Write an email! Just ask them, its that simple! Go the right people for the true answers.
Guest
As per http://www.pyramidsociety.org/about.htm site:

The Egyptian Arabian Defined


To qualify as a Straight Egyptian, as defined by The Pyramid Society, a horse must (1) be registered or eligible by pedigree for registration by the Arabian Horse Registry of America AND (2) trace in every line of its pedigree to horse born in Arabia Deserta; AND (3) trace in every line of its pedigree to a horse which falls within one or more of the following categories: a. owned or bred by Abbas Pasha I or Ali Pasha Sherif: b. used to create and maintain the Royal Agricultural Society (RAS)/Egyptian Agricultural Organization (EAO) breeding programs, with the exclusion of Registan and Sharkasi and their lineal descendants © a horse which was a lineal c. a horse which was a lineal ancestor of a horse described in a. or b. above; and d. other than those excluded above, a horse conceived and born in a private stud program in Egypt and imported directly to the United States and registered by the Arabian Horse Registry of America prior to the extension of the EAO's supervision to private Egyptian stud programs as reflected in Volume 4 of the EAO's stud book.
Guest
In the case of El Dere, he qualified because he was used in the RAS / EAO breeding programs according to "b. used to create and maintain the Royal Agricultural Society (RAS)/Egyptian Agricultural Organization (EAO) breeding programs, with the exclusion of Registan and Sharkasi and their lineal descendants © a horse which was a lineal."

He was also used by Inchass Stud and Ahmed Hamza.
HLM
good morning Pyramid Soceity Breeder

I am sorry to disagree with you. You did not "Listen" or misunderstood. El Deree was bred by the el Jibur Tribe, syria and imported to Egypt as a gift to King faoud in 1934.
that is "Inshass". therefore, he is quite eligible as many other imports to Egypt, used by the establishments mentioned earlier. they also never returned to their country of origin. I have posted numerous times the data I have received through discussion I had with the Syrian deligation in 1994,1996,1998. these details differ from what Dr nagel wrote in his book and it is quite possible
that he misunderstood or received wrong information. I guess we will never know. I like to believe in the information I received, because they were identical each time compared to the notes I took.

Aiglon and Laila were imported strictly for racing inEgypt and after they finished in 1920/21 returned to ???
there is no evidence, no record that either one stayed in Egypt. The mare in question also appears to be the ONLY offspring of theirs. Also she was imported to Egypt for race purposes, and therefore had to be born in another country. She is not recorded anywhere, other than at the Jockey club, neither are her parents. the first registration number received is that of the AHRA. when the AHRa questioned details of the mare, W.R. Brown sent a telegram back to the AHRa stating " It is a typical race track mare". you may look into that telegram at the AHRA.

I dont think it is wise to go on any more fishing trips in this regard. this bloodline is in many horses, including some famous ones. But they do not comply with the rules of the PS, unless the PS makes an agenda, spells out the correct details why she became accepted (error in showing RAS as breeder) and the issue be cleared.

As far as the founding of the Pyramid Society is concerned, I spelled this out in detail in my index. Indeed I gave this idea to Doug Marshall, he gave it the name and Judi became 4 months later the Secretary. All founding members did a lot of work and some spent fortunes to make it work, which is history..
Each one should be respected for their work, otherwise there would be no PS today. But the intent spelled out in the original minutes indeed differ of some of today in deed and form.

As far as import document with the AHRa are concerned, you need to go and look at them ,as anybody is welcome at the AHRA to look through documents, all of which they have on their micro films. the AHRa never held back to give information to their members and still does not.
Therefore there is no reason to get angry or upset about it. Also they are trying to correct as much as possible in their database, based on facts. that is their job.

I trust this issue is now concluded and we all need to wait and see how the PS will handle the matter.

Have a nice day
Hansi
HLM
Dear Breedr

I have done enough work for the preservation of the SE horse and therefore request THAT YOU GO TO THE AHRA AND CHECK THROUGH THE DOCUMENTS, WHICH THEY HAVE ON THEIR MICRO FILMS.

you should not feel bad about all this, because the mareline has produced some fine horses, a number of famous ones. Regardless, she is an "Asil" mare based on the parentage stated in her import documents.

it is not my fault, that the AHRa made an error in stating that the rAS is her breeder. the latter never owned the parents nor produced the mare.

the questions you asked me, I like to have answered myself. Furthermore, why should you feel hurt? A good horse is a good horse and a label does not make it good or better. You should be proud to produce or own a beautiful Aabian horse. The breeders/owners of "Asil" Arabian never feel "hurt" they know what they have and breed.

I remember ones, when the Issue "Jamilll" came up and doug Marshal had just imported a mare with this bloodline
he stated: I rather pull the papers on her, if the issue is not cleared". Judi said "I wil ltake it to the wall" and indeed she did. There was nothing wrong with the pedigrees.

I am not suggesting that anybody should pull papers, certainly not with the mare in question, but let us be realistic and call a spade a spade. If we are unable to accept facts and only please ourself with fictions, then what have we got? As stated earlier, it was an honest error the AHRa made, corrected it now, and this should be acceptable .

the problem I have is, that I am a sticler on "rules".
follow these dilligently and insist that they are obeyed.
If there is a problem, then it should be straightened out in a manner that nobody get's hurt. And it can be.

Have a nice day
Hansi
HLM
Hi guest

here again we have a contradiction. Sharkasi was used by the eAO extensively, produced many excellent offspring, Danny Barbary and others gave evidence of certain data of this stallion, yet he was exluded as an SE horse.

Now, compare this with Aiglon and Laila, who were never in an Egyptian Breeding program, as mentioned and after racing vanished into thin air.

So where do we draw the line?

Have a nice day
Hansi
HLM
Dear Breeder

I like to ad another thought to the issue.

the original breeding programs were incorporated as SE's, based on their performance/production.

Many of us know what the Exochorda line has produced and is producing, many excellent offspring. Based on this fact the PS has good reason to to clarify the matter and issue an appropiate statement, correcting the original error/oversight and accept the line based on its production. I would have no problem with this at all.
Matter of fact, we need every SE Arabian we can find,
because we do not have enough in this world.

At the same time the PS should also consider sharkasi and Kars on the same standards.

What do you all think about this suggestion and opinion?

Have a nice day
Hansi.
Guest 2
QUOTE (Guest @ May 2 2003, 01:38 PM)
In the case of El Dere, he qualified because he was used in the RAS / EAO breeding programs according to "b. used to create and maintain the Royal Agricultural Society (RAS)/Egyptian Agricultural Organization (EAO) breeding programs, with the exclusion of Registan and Sharkasi and their lineal descendants © a horse which was a lineal."

He was also used by Inchass Stud and Ahmed Hamza.

That's a different issue from breeder identity. Go back and read what Hansi claimed about the PS requirement to have the breeder identity. She said they needed to know the breeder to qualify as PS. That's not true. El Dere wasn't born in Egypt and there is no data on breeder or country or date of birth, no parents, no owner. He is accepted by the PS because the RAS certified him (as they did Exochorda). He did stay on and was used there by the RAS. But they didn't breed him and no one knows who did. Exochorda was born in Egypt, of known parents and birthdate. She qualifies under the definition for horses bred by private breeders before the expansion of the EAO over private farms. Her blood is also bred in Egypt today. Why are people even debating about something that is so black and white? If the PS says a horse is SE, the horse is SE. I just picked up the PS Manual of Straight Egyptian Horses. It says, "The Pyramid Society was formed in 1969 and established what criteria was required for a horse to be STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN. This reference book lists all of the horses since records have been kept, that meet those requirements. With this one book you should now be able to check or create your own predigree for any Straight Egyptian horse. If you horse is in this book, it is STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN as defined by the Pyramid Society". It doesn't say "unless Hansi Heck Melnyk disagrees". Exochorda and her parents and El Dere are all listed in the book, so they ARE ALL Straight Egyptian. Period. Full Stop.
G-2
Sand*Dollar
How many horses have to be dragged into this never-ending argument, to support the viewpoint of each side? Already, we have managed to drag in El Dere, Kars, Sharkasi, and Rabanna.

A majority of our horses have 'holes" in their pedigree or questions that remain unanswered because the only people able to answer them, have long since died. This is as much of a characteristic of our horses, as the high set tail, short-coupling, tent disposition, black skin, and beautiful head are. This is the history of our horses, as a western civilization tries its best to understand the eastern cvilization. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. We need to get over it. These horses are so much more than the piece of paper which confirms what we already see with our eyes.

There are so many other ways to positively impact the Egyptian Arabian Horse than to have these "arguments" over and over, that really, when all is said and done, do not bear any fruitful results. Everything remains the same as it was, before the argument started. Except we have people who leave dissapointed, disgruntled, and discouraged. And these feelings then get associated with the horse, who has nothing to do with any of this. So, as much as each side is convinced that they are helping the horse, it really doesn't. So, agree to disagree and move on, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!
Guest
Personally I think Exochorda should get the supreme Championship sash for the most squabbled-over horse in history, at least in this forum wink.gif Thank God the poor mare never got to read straightegyptians.com! biggrin.gif
Breeder
QUOTE (HLM @ May 2 2003, 04:26 PM)
Dear Breeder

I like to ad another thought to the issue.

the original breeding programs were incorporated as SE's, based on their performance/production.

Many of us know what the Exochorda line has produced and is producing, many excellent offspring. Based on this fact the PS has good reason to to clarify the matter and issue an appropiate statement, correcting the original error/oversight and accept the line based on its production.  I would have no problem with this at all.
Matter of fact, we need every SE Arabian we can find,
because we do not have enough in this world.

At the same time the PS should also consider sharkasi and Kars on the same standards.

What do you all think about this suggestion and opinion?

Have a nice day
Hansi.

Sheer lunacy. Where, oh where, in the PS definition does it say anything about adding horses on the basis of performance??? MORE creative interpretation? The PS has a perfectly good REAL definition and a great Board of Directors, and doesn't need (or want) you dictating to them. The fact that they don't even acknowledge your comments says alot. Does Judi Forbis spend her life trying to get horses kicked out of the PS? No. Did Doug Marshall? No. Did anyone really involved with the PS in a productive way ever spend their time this way? Of course not. They put their time and energy building good things for people to enjoy and encouraged comaradarie. They helped to make the Egyptian Arabian horse a pillar of pride for ALL who own them and the didn't attack non-Egyptians either. They promoted the Egyptian Arabian horse with positive energy which draws people closer and draws new people in. You have taken the opposite direction, more like a repellent! What a shame. I'm sick to death of it.
Guest
QUOTE
In the case of El Dere, he qualified because he was used in the RAS / EAO breeding programs according to "b. used to create and maintain the Royal Agricultural Society (RAS)/Egyptian Agricultural Organization (EAO) breeding programs, with the exclusion of Registan and Sharkasi and their lineal descendants © a horse which was a lineal."

He was also used by Inchass Stud and Ahmed Hamza.


I realize what somebody said about certain breeders so I went to read the definition. Going by the definition, even with a sketchy background that El Dere has, he still qualifies as SE because he was bred by RAS, EAO, Inchass, and Ahmen Hamza. Further, his registration number is RAS 20. And appears in the RAS studbook, volume 1, page 29.

This being said, he would never be excluded as a SE with or without a sketchy background.
HLM
Hi guest
wow. I was only out a few hours, and here we have 23 posts.Mmm

Let me once more explain, since you possible misunderstood me. the seven organization mentioned are considered the "Breeding establishments". Of course they had imports, but these were accepted, because they were used in breeding by them. I can not help what AHRa puts in their CDROM, and indeed there are errors. It is apparent to me that they are trying hard to correct anything, which can be verified. that's a good thing.
therefore aiglon and Laila's number are CDROM NUMBERS, BECAUSE NEITHER ONE IS RECORDED IN ANY STUDBOOK ON THIS GLOBE.
sURELY, THOSE EXPERIENCED IN SOME RESEARCH MUST HAVE REALIZED THIS cdrom NUMBER SYSTEM BY NOW.
they also utilize only the USA/Canadian registration numbers, but for most all other countries they have THEIR OWN CDROM NUMBER, a number you will never find in any pertaining stud book, because under such a different horse would be listed.'

Furthermore, dont you think we should touch case by case and not compare apples with pears? If there is a discrepancy on any horse, please let us discuss it intelligently, and not in anger. the latter will lead to no-where.

I never had any of the bloodlines in question, only tried to help those who do. Now if that is a crime, I am guilty.
Would you rather listen to all those whispers, nobody coming forward, and with it producing more harm then good? Or would you rather have the issue brought straight out forward for an honest discussion and then decide what we all can do about it? I believe in the latter.

Have a nice evening
Hansi
HLM
Dear Breeder
I really can not follow your thinking. Of course these horses were selected as breeding stock by their "performance" First under saddle (race Tracks) and they based on what they produced, which we can also call "Performance in production" by those breeding establishments. they could not afford to own a garden ornament..

Here I mention, El Moez, Sameh, Antar, Nazeer, Hamdan,
Mashhour, shahloul etc.etc. who all did well on the track, and many more, as did offspring to mentione a few, Talal, Morafic, Farazdac - Alaa El din, shahloul, Gassir, SF Ibn Nazeer, Fawzan, ec.etc.
Only lateron did the EAO and other breeders in Egypt no longer raced, and I think this was because of monetary reasons.

therefore, it is not lunecrazy, but reality.

Have a nice day
Hansi
Tired of Lies
Hansi is very protective of her friends. [EDITED] She sincerely values (even after death) her old friends like Pritzlaff. Now the problem began with Pritzlaff's Rabanna. She was a great mare of high percentage original Egyptian bloodlines. However, as proven by Lady Wentworth documents that came to life long after the controversy started, Rabanna neither came from Egypt, nor was she bred in Egypt, nor did her parents come from Egypt. She simply does NOT qualfy as Straight Egyptian. Now this is fact and has long been an article of warfare between Hansi and the founders of the Pyramid Society especially including Judy Forbis and the late Walter Schirmanski. To muddy the waters, Hansi has long attacked the Straight Egyptians status of Exochorda, Adhem and others. She has continued this long after proof to the contrary has been provided. She has caused great harm to many breeders with these lines. She is non-repentent. She will continue with these [EDITED]misrepresentations as long as she is able. It is all very sad.
HLM
good evening Poster without a name.

I resent you accusiations but have no hard feelings towards you, since you obviously do not know what you are talking about. the original discussion was "Kars"
and Rabaana happened to be of such bloodlines.
If you now study the imports Lady Ann Blunt made via Egypt to England (quite a few of course were returned and are in the SE's pedigrees) you might arrive at a more sober conclusion.

this also has nothing to do with "friends" I am going for a principle, not who is friend or foe.I feelwhat is right for one shouldbe for the other.

Amazingly, I never had a problem with any contraversis by my collegues, and at least we agreed to disagreed
without insulting each other, or each other's intelligence. there really is no need for that.

How many SE breeder/owners really know what they have? How many know how EXACTLY it all started?
And why should I be untruthful? I have nothing to gain by this. Furthermore IT WAS NOT I WHO STARTED 6 YEARS AGO THE SUBJECT OF VARIOUS HORSES ,SOME YOU MENTIONED, I simply gave my honest opinions what in fact transpired. And it is my sincere desire to have the "whispers/rumors" seize and a straight forward
declaration. I have given two suggestions, and those who have the bloodlines might be wise to at least think about it and possibly persue it. It is to their benefits, not mine.

As long as we let politics be played, corruptions or misrepresentation have a field day, we all will suffer, not just a few. If you can not accomodate this, feel it is quite allright refusing to make things right, then that is your affair.

In the meantime, as I said, no hard feelings, but the next time have at least the gutts to sign your name.

Have a wonderful evening
sad.gif :
Hansi
reluctant2
Sober; an interesting word,, perhaps you should practice it. Then perhaps you could think clearly and less belligerently.
No matter how you carp, the declaration of SE for Exochorda, Adhem stands. All your selfimportant declarations do not change that fact.

Best wishes,
JAL
Guest_guest
QUOTE
aiglon and Laila's number are CDROM NUMBERS, BECAUSE NEITHER ONE IS RECORDED IN ANY STUDBOOK ON THIS GLOBE.  SURELY, THOSE EXPERIENCED IN SOME RESEARCH MUST HAVE REALIZED THIS cdrom NUMBER SYSTEM BY NOW.  they also utilize only the USA/Canadian registration numbers, but for most all other countries they have THEIR OWN CDROM NUMBER, a number you will never find in any pertaining stud book, because under such a different horse would be listed.'


Exochorda's registration number is EGYPT 187. The fictional EGYPT studbook contains a number of pedigrees not discoverable in any known studbook or importation document. She does not appear in the early volumes of the EAO and RAS studbooks. According to AHRA, she had 6 offspring with starting with Suleika AHR 1196, foaled in 1932 in USA by IBN Nafa. Due to Suleika's AHR registration number (and no other registration numbers to her name), it is very highly likely that she was foaled in USA. There are no recorded Exochorda offspring in any of the early EAO and RAS studbooks. If Exochorda was bred in Egypt, perhaps something happened to her offspring, such as the diseases and plagues because there are no records of her offspring bred in Egypt.

Aiglon had 1 recorded offspring and Leila had 1 recorded offspring.

What is a RAS certification? But to assume at this point that A RAS certification is either a RAS registration certification or an export/import documentation generated and signed by RAS. Exochorda does not have a RAS registration number, she does not have a RAS registration certification. So her RAS Certification must be the export/import documentation. Since the breeder name is blank on her AHRA record, it is assumed that the export/import documentation has a blank breeder name.

The use of El Dere and others like him due to his sketchy background as an argument in the Exochorda discussion is moot because, according to AHRA, El Dere was bred on in Egypt by RAS, EAO, and Inchass and his blood continues to be used in today's Egyptian breeding. Because El Dere was bred on in Egypt and continues to be used today, according to The Pyramid Society's definition of a SE, he is a SE and will always be a SE.

Regardless of the data that I have seen to date, arguments, and discussions regarding Exochorda in the past and the last few days, it is very highly likely, probably a guaranteed 100%, that Exochorda's status as a SE remains unchanged.
Guest
Then what about the horses of Prince Mohamod Ali? *Fadl, *Maaroufa, *Nasr, *Roda , All the Brown and Babson Imports????

None of these horses are in the RAS or EAO stud book? They did not breed on in Egypt.

Is it not true that the owner of the mare at the time of breeding/foaling is the breeder?
Guest_guest
[QUOTE]To qualify as a Straight Egyptian, as defined by The Pyramid Society, a horse must (1) be registered or eligible by pedigree for registration by the Arabian Horse Registry of America AND (2) trace in every line of its pedigree to horse born in Arabia Deserta; AND (3) trace in every line of its pedigree to a horse which falls within one or more of the following categories: (a) owned or bred by Abbas Pasha I or Ali Pasha Sherif: (cool.gif used to create and maintain the Royal Agricultural Society (RAS)/Egyptian Agricultural Organization (EAO) breeding programs, with the exclusion of Registan and Sharkasi and their lineal descendants © a horse which was a lineal ancestor of a horse described in (a) or (cool.gif above; and (d) other than those excluded above, a horse conceived and born in a private stud program in Egypt and imported directly to the United States and registered by the Arabian Horse Registry of America prior to the extension of the EAO's supervision to private Egyptian stud programs as reflected in Volume 4 of the EAO's stud book[QUOTE]

This is the first time that I've seen these horses brought into this discussion. Not to get too nitpicking in a volatile discussion but it appears that the the named Breeder PRINCE MOHAMED ALI horses above qualifies according to at least (d) in the definition above. Looking at Fadl's pedigree, IBN Rabdan is the sire of Fadl. IBN Rabdan was bred on in Egypt and continues to be used today. This should further and probably qualify Fadl as a SE due to (a) above. As far as all other Babson and WR Brown horses, I do not know but the chances are very high that they qualify under at least one of the conditions above.

The owner of the foal at the time of breeding/foaling is the breeder but who actually owned Leila and her foal, Exochorda, at the time of foaling? According to AHRA, the breeder and owner names of Leila are blank. According to AHRA, the breeder and owner names of Exochorda EGYPT 187 are blank. According to AHRA, the breeder name of *Exochorda AHR 816 is blank but the owner is Henry Herbermann. *Exochorda AHR 816 and Exochorda EGYPT 187 is the same mare. Is it proper and correct to assume that Henry Herbermann or the racing owner of Exochorda, Captain Owens, is the breeder of Leila and Exochorda just because they owned her? Maybe. Maybe not.
HLM
good morning guest

You ask a sincere question. Prince Mohamed Ali breeding
is in many SE's , besides the Babsons, .these horses have identical background as many SE's.

Also Judi Forbis checked these pedigrees thoroughly.
Remember now, I believe it was Walter Schimanski who was given the job the prepare the foundation/root list, asked by Judi to do so. Judi is very familiar with the background of the Se's. You also need to look through Volume I of the RAs/EAO studbook. there you will find explanations for other questions you might have.

I think often some of our people do not realize how extremely valuable Stud books are. While human errors inccurr, in no matter what, it is otherwise what I call the bible. Example: AHRA members were at one time some 39,000- AHRa printed "750 copies" of their studbook.
Many large breeder never owned a set. While the CDROM is a fine tool for research, it can only be varified through studbooks on hand. CDROM often makes changes/corrections, change of names etc, which again in most cases can only be varified with studbooks on hand, because they do not issue explanations for corrections, changes etc. on the CDROM.
Their studbooks would show corrections in the next issue for guidance.

Of course aquiring studbooks from some 60 nations enrolled in WAHO, with new ones coming out every 3 years, you will realize the undertaking of aquiring these.
But how many have the studbooks going back into the 19th century- ? these are are a researchers dream and a collector's item. and the very first original ones are indeed the most important and valuable ones.

How many people have the Polish Linage by Ursula Gutman, or Fahlgreen's Polish Arabians, or Dr H F Kale's Russian compillation? All extremely excellent research work. In these are "listings" and not assumptions. And how many people have my Straight Egyptian Index- vol. I-IV
in which all horses plus progenie
breeder,cateogoris of Blue List/etc etc. are listed and each one with a stud book registration number, where applicable? you have no idea how many horses carry the same name and unless you have correct data, they can be confused with each other, especially when they are foaled in the same year, but a different country.

As far as "no offspring in egypt" is concerned, that is quite possible, but the parents were in the possession of the breeding establishments incorporated into the "SE program". If they are not, then were did they come from?
The Al Khamsa/Asil club has a different system, they take in all Asils, including the SE's/Asil.

Those interested will sometimes find on "E-Bay"
offerings, which usually are taken up quickly.

Ask any question, and If I have the information, I be delighted to reply.

Thanks for asking and have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif

PS: Yes it is true that the owner of the mare at time of
"Breeding" is the breeder. But this is not often the case in stud books, for instance INUTERO importations. Often the then owner/importer is shown as breeder.

do not confuse this please with an owner shown at time of sale or export. He/she could have just purchased the horse from whoever, without owning the parents or having bred the horse. sometimes only "Owner" is shown in studbooks, and you can in most cases recognize if it is also the breeder, if they own at least the dam at time of breeding. If you have the owner/importer of either dam and sire, and then sudenly you have a third name as owner,then you can determine that such was not the breeder. Exceptions to any rule.

Hansi
Objective Historian
QUOTE (Guest_guest @ May 3 2003, 01:49 PM)
QUOTE
aiglon and Laila's number are CDROM NUMBERS, BECAUSE NEITHER ONE IS RECORDED IN ANY STUDBOOK ON THIS GLOBE.  SURELY, THOSE EXPERIENCED IN SOME RESEARCH MUST HAVE REALIZED THIS cdrom NUMBER SYSTEM BY NOW.  they also utilize only the USA/Canadian registration numbers, but for most all other countries they have THEIR OWN CDROM NUMBER, a number you will never find in any pertaining stud book, because under such a different horse would be listed.'



There is a very important element missing from the information being batted back and forth in this discussion. Exochorda was born, raised, raced in Egypt, was purchased and exported out of Egypt LONG BEFORE there was such a thing as REGISTRATION in Egypt. Stud books were kept, or not kept, in an unofficial and sporadic manner. MANY early Egyptian ancestors were born under these circumstances. Stud books, even from large well known farms from that period, were not published and were not tied together by any means. Even the RAS did not have an official registry or a formal Stud book at that time!

To put it in perspective, imagine if the U.S.A, for example, there was no AHRA (or any other official registry). Think of
all the private owners, many who only have one or two mares. Those mares are often bred with meticulous consideration, perhaps even more so than large farms who are breeding dozens of mares each year. Such an owner, breeding for his or her own pleasure, may well have no need to maintain, much less to publish, an actual
"stud book".

Now add to this scenario the fact that during the interim (between the birth of the ancestor and present time), the country had been plagued by war and a total upheaval of the former government. That upheaval changed the society and shook the Arabian horse breeding culture to the roots -- triggering an exodus of Arabian horse owners and breeders from the country. Imagine too, that the
the new govenment was very anxious to destroy any remnants of the old guard, including symbols of the privledged wealthy class (who owned and bred Arabian horses). This is what happend in Egypt years after the life and times of Exochorda and many other Egyptian Arabian
ancestors. Countless records were destroyed and lost. To date, we know that many stallions were imported into Egypt from Crabbet Stud in 1920, but they were sold and dispersed and there is no known record of where they went or what they produced. Such records may still exist in old trunks somewhere, but chances are, they will never be published. Add to this confusion the fact that horses names were changed on a whim, sometimes many times throughout their lives, no rules reguled this.

Imagine that almost one hundred years later someone tries to prove or disprove a distant relation to a horse owned and bred by such a small private breeder, and exported out of the country well before there was any such thing as Registration in Egypt, based ONLY on finding the information in a PUBLISHED studbook. Get the picture?

All learned Arabian horse historians understand exactly what these circumstances were and how they impacted the whole picture. This is exactly why all major preservation organizations, including Al Khamsa, the Pyramid Society and the Asil club, have carefully made accomodations for this reality in their defintions for inclusion. This is also true for all objective Arabian horse reseachers. Every respectable researcher has included in their work, an index of "pre-registration" horses, so to speak. That is, horses whose breeding is vouched for by the highest authorities, but for whom there is (understandably) a lack of known written documentation. The qualification of these horses is not questioned by these researchers, they are just indexed accordingly. The entire foundation of Arabian breeding is based on ancestors who fall into this category, thus, these horses are never challenged by those with a solid understanding of the situation, coupled with a rational and objective perspective.

To challenge the qualifications based on this one point alone is either innocently ill-informed or deliberately ill-intended. For this reason, you will NEVER hear attempts to undermine the qualifications of any root stock bloodlines coming from the true, legitimate, established leaders of the Egyptian Arabian community. These people are our finest teachers, mentors and role models. Look to them for guidance, as their agendas have been clearly shown to be focused on growth for the entire Egyptian Arabian community, not just to promote their own bloodlines and grow their own bank accounts. Mass education of breeders, even at the grass roots level, is in the best interest of the Arabian community at large. The truth is a building block for balance, tolerance and unity, but it is the enemy of the old "elite informed". Under that regime information was held by only a few and doted out according to the best personal advantage, twisted and held back at will. This practice has proven to be been their virtual cash-cow for over the decades, but change for the better of all is in the wind. May education, understanding and unity mark the future of our breed.
HLM
goodmorning

I am getting so confused with all those "guests" Please state your names, remember we are all in one family.

Referring to your last paragraph, that is exactly the problem I have. Both parents vanished after racing in 1920/1921 and no trace that they stayed in egypt.

Approximately 6 years later in c.1926/27 their daughter
as a 3 year old arrives at the race track from where? she ran for a while and then was aquired by a second party , other than owners of parents, and eventually sold to a third, Herberman, who imported her to the USA as a c.7year old. (the Agri certificates shows "approximately a seven year old-meaning the owner then did not even know her correct year of birth)

No records are found that either owner of sire and dam bred the mare. No record that either parent had a nother offspring, and if so, where? No records that the mare had an offspring in Egypt.
Neither owner of the parents were a "breeding establishment" in Egypt. I think the owner of the sire is from Saudi Arabia, and could have bred some horses there, and the owner of the mare came in from India, being an english officer. I think both parents could have gone back to either Saudi, Syria or may be even Lebanon,and in either country the mare could have foaled.

so what is one to conclude? Does any of this fit under the definition of an SE horse? You all tell me please.
I have tried since 1970 to make sense of all this, and have not been able to. Neither has any of my collegues.
So please take it from there. But she does fit as an "Asil "
mare based on her parentage.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Guest_Niina
As Oliver and Aleksi both are on business trips in Europe and can't manage the Forum since last week I am in charge and will close this discussion now. As many times before it seems that this poor old mare made waves again years after her death. As no new facts from both sides of this "battle" can be forwarded, her status will remain the same and the discussion is the same like one-hundred-thousand discussions before. rolleyes.gif
I wish this mare had had this kind of attention when she was alive.
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