In my copy of "The Arabian Horse Families of Poland" there is a horse named Tajar-Koheil, foaled in 1869. In "The Arabian Horse in America", page 116, Dr. Conn speaks of Koheyl Tajar, foaled in 1872, who came to America, imported by a Dr. Prisoni. Are these 2 horses, or 1 horse? Raswan also mentions Tajar-Koheil (entry #10292) and gives the birthdate of 1872. No other Tajar Koheil or Koheyl Tajar are mentioned by Mr. Raswan that I have found.

Now I am confused. If ANYONE has a copy of the old Weil Studbook from the original Weil Stud they might be able to solve this dilemma!! AND, Dr. Conn goes on to tell the pedigree of the mare Koheyl, but "The Arabian Horse Families of Poland" does not have anything on that mare's family.

Julia

Julia
I have "8" Tajars in my database.

Tajar (1851) SBWM I/P44-1908- has him by Amurath (1829) x
Geyran III (1845) going into the Weil Foundation mare Geyran I (1811) a Kuhaylah Ajuz, bred in Syria, imported to Weil through Graf Rzewuski in 1819.

Tajar (1843) Cham (1835) x Geyran II) bred by Weil

Tajar (1862) (Tajar I (1851) x Daria VI (1852) Family Murana I,
Bred by Weil

Tajar (1866) (Sangi (1853) x Abbaya-El-Cheraquie (1856)
Bred by S.M.V King Emanuele II, Italy

Tajar (1873) ( Tajar (1862) x Obeja (1862)- a salqlawi Jidran
bred by Weil

Tajar (1883) (Tajar (1873) x Czebessie (1877) -Family Said K'Ajuz
Bred by Weil and sent to Radauts

Tajar (c.1810) Syrian DB x Syrian DB) Saqlawi Jidran
Bought from Sheikh Emir Beshir for the King zu Wuerttenberg in 1817
a Weil Foundation

Tajar (c.1833) (D.B. x DB) Purchased from Emir Beshir, syria
by King zu Wuettenberg-Import Germany in 1836

Tajar (c.1888) PASB I/C70/P152-
Tajar (1883 x Sheraky (c.1878)- Kuahylan Sarabie, bred by Radautz, Austria.

Tajar-Koheil (1869) PASB I/C9/P91-1932
Tajar (1862) x Koheyl- Bred by Weil
(INformation is incomplete, research still being done)

that's all for now

Hansi

Hi Hansi

That is the one! Raswan has him as foaled 1872 and in parentheses his name shown as Koheyl Tajar and Dr. Conn uses Koheyl Tajar and a birth date of 1872 as well. A friend of mine is sure that there are actually 2 horses, but I think there is one and information is not consistent on him, but I am not sure. I knew you would know as much as anyone on this!!

I NEVER have enough books...lol.

Julia

Yes Julia, I dont know what to think. Tajar Koheil (1869)
could have been exported, and I and my collegues are also confused about this entry. When I get back to Marbach, I will see if they have more on it. Could not find in the archive a few years back.
This is like pulling teeth, ha!

Hansi

Hi Julia,

With that what Hansi put in this topic, and that what I already know, I will pay a visit to a friend in Holland; he also has a lot of old books; perhaps there is an old Weil Studbook ( not Weil-Marbach) in his library.
Hansi:
did you got this information also from such a Studbook?

with regards,
bastet

Thank you bastet, and thank you hansi!

Much of the time the pedigrees just work nicely, and I thought this one did too, until someone brought to my attention the information on page 116 of Dr. Conn's book, and I saw the birth date difference in the Raswan Index...hmmm... now I find that an old Weil Studbook might be very helpful!!

It has also been mentioned that this horse is mentioned in the Jockey Club (Thoroughbred) book, Volume 3, so I am wondering if Dr. Prisoni from Nebraska that was supposed to have imported Tajar-Koheil was one of the early thoroughbred folk... but I find no reference to him on the internet and I don't have any books on the Thoroughbred at all...

I need more books, specially studbooks such as the old Weil Studbook! There are never enough books..lol

Julia

Yes I did, but also from archives I visited. The Jockey Club in Lexington,KY has all TB studbooks, including from other nations.
So does the Canadian one in Toronto,Ont,Canada. When a TB is imported to another country, such country requires a copy of their studbook. this is how they came by them.

All early imports were first registered in Jockey Club stud books.
Unfortunately many of these Arabians did not breed on, or if they have, it is not recorded. I mentioned before that I found over 600 Asil Arabians imported from Syria to Italy in 1821 forward to 1872,
also some 100 SE's from the A Pasha sale in 1860, recorded in the Italy TB Jockey Club stud books with extensive data for each one.
Because of such records a few of us researchers have identified certain TB's which entered the Arabian breed, including 30-Maria.

Originally, there were no studbooks in our sense. They were "Herdbooks" handwritten and certified. the German ones are written in the old german writing, which I am able to read. In there you will find "Dahoman", "Shagya"-original DB imports. However, what they produced became "Partbreds" also called "Araber-Rasse" identifyable by the "a.r." behind each name, because they bred domestic country mares or whatever discription. "Shagya" of course, became the founder of the "Shagya Rasse", an absolute outstanding sportshorse breed, as are the Babolna "Araber-Rasse".
In some of the writings (Radautz) questiones that "Merops" was ever bred by a Dahoman, (see RZ P122). Also Upton did a superb job.
One also has to have the expertise to properly translate and or identify documentation, and that takes many years to learn.

For instance I am proud to own the original pedigrees of the 50 TB families-starting in the middle of 1650 forward recorded by Goose.
In there are over 100 Arabs and Barbs imported into England. They started the TB breed.

But I also have other books which record many an ancestor of our Arabian breed, which are not Arabians, but Warmbloods,Nonius,
Lippizans,Andalusian, French Coah horses, TB, Anglos, etc.etc.
Such data is verified by other respected authors of the 19th and 20th century. I was not looking for all this, I fell over it.

And to you Julia, yes one never has enough "books", and many are collectors item and simply not available to purchase. the best you can hope for is to be allowed to make a copy, and have such certified by the owner of the original, if the copyright has expired. But then there is only a handful of our people, who are truly interested in the genetics of our breed. I am glad that you belong to the latter.

Have a wonderful day
Hansi

Thank you Hansi!! So many have questions and I seriously believe that the research done by the few to whom it is so very important will help the folks coming in later, if they want it You are so many light years ahead of where I am and I can only wish I had begun this fascinating journey into pedigrees many years ago when I could travel and afford more.... You have made some books available to me, and for that I thank you from the depths of my heart. When I can afford more I will be looking again!

I have found a Jockey Club volume on eBay, and hopefully I can get an answer from the owner to see if that horse is in there... Dr. Conn said his information came from Volume III of those Jockey Club records (that is not the volume that is available right now, but maybe it would help a little?)... hmmm...

Julia

Julia
the next time you are in Lexington, KY go to the JC, they be delighted to help you and let you even photo copy, what ever you need. I ocne spent a few days there doing just that, and Carol Schulz and C Neubauer once a whole week. It is indeed most fascinating and gives you often the insight of the ingedience, of what spices were used in cookin gulash, ha

Hi Julia,

I started this morning for looking the Weil Studbook in the library from a
friend of mine.
WE FOUND THE BOOK and the name and so on from the stallion. In the comming
week I will make a copy of the pages from the Book and send it over to your
home address in the States. I hope I can do you a pleasure with it.

with all my regards,
Bastet

Thank you, thank you, thank you, and thank you again!!
I cannot tell you how very happy I am to know that the information is available and coming!

I have replied to you privately as well

Julia

Hi Hansi,

[QUOTE]yes one never has enough "books", and many are collectors item and simply not available to purchase. the best you can hope for is to be allowed to make a copy, and have such certified by the owner of the original, if the copyright has expired. But then there is only a handful of our people, who are truly interested in the genetics of our breed.


Hansi: I hope am I truly interested enough to belong to that handful of people

Bastet

Hi Bastet

Welcome to our handful of researchers left. I am so happy to read you also are one of them.

I was able to exchange very often views, opinions, material with some of my collegues internationally. We assisted each other in any way possible, because nobody always has all the information and often documentation has to be verified in order to properly translate its meaning. It's an ardent job, but I love it. To often assumptions are turned into "facts" which can be misleading. I have to see things in writing to base my conclusions on.

I was most unhappy when the AHRa decided to no longer publish studbooks. For instance, if a name of a horse has been changed, etc. the database of theirs will not show the original name. When you have the studbooks (I have most of the international oens too)
you can check it out IT IS IN WRITING, AND THAT IS SO IMPORTANT.
Also the database has errors and left many an ancestor out, although the data is in possession of the REgistry. I could never figure out why, but understand some motives now.

A pedigree is important, a correct one. It contains valuable genetic information, on which an astute breeder is relying on.
Mating a stud with a mare is easy, to know what you genetically mate is a different story. Fads and misleading promotion has also done great harm to many a newcommer breeder. The results are obvious.

In any form of life there is competition to determine which is the best, and only from such should be bred from. That means "testing,testing,testing", which has nothing to do with "Beauty". that's a plus, a welcome extra.

I have seen, attended promotional displays which made my hair stand on end. It was total promotion to make a dollar bill, and that's what some people are still breeding. Breeding is an art, trial and error its ingredience and even under the best of circumstances with long years of experience and wisdom, one can never always get it right. Neither does nature, that's why inferior things die, be it a tree, a plant, a mamal etc. which includes us humanoids. By inferior I mean healthwise, functioability, mind and/or body at too young an age. I mean no offence here to anybody, okay! It is only an observation and my conclusion and opinion.

Have a nice day
Hansi

Good afternoon Hansi,

Thanks for your reply. There are a lot of people who wants to increase and hope they will have a lot of nice horses, not looking what happened before in the lines...... just following what there eyes see and the Dam and Stallion shows at that moment; hopefully to get the same and making money of it. Ok money is very important, without that also research has his problems. I know all about it and many people with me.
I will try to be a breeder and also me myself is dependent on the knowledge of other, perhaps older people, or people with the money to do the research, or people without the money but just crazy about theire "hobby". <_< <_<

The same is with the older books. Of course there are some places these old books are stored, sometimes in privat collections, some in the library from the Studbook Society.
You are quite right, that what is written down is sometimes better, sometimes the mistake that is written down is refuted with good arguments on paper as well, but also in here the computer period is never again to agnore. See what a hell of a job Julia is doing at the moment.

If I can give people a hand, because I can easy go to the Studbook Society of the Arabian Horses here in Holland, or have a nice day in a privat library from a friend, I will do.

It's also what Julia told us already : you never have books enough, but realize that other people perhaps still have them.

Anyway I realize that I became a member from this SE.Com many time too late and I hope that other people with theire knowledge can help me to make the right decision when I have my doubts about mixing SE bloodlines .

with all my regards,
Bastet

Hi Bastet.

Nothing is ever too late until we are six feet under.And yes, we all need each other ever so often. Sharing is such a wonderful thing.

In breeding one should really know the good and bad points of the horses in a pedigree, and what they put on to their foals. This way it is much easier to avoid dreadful mistakes. This is why I will never understand how someone can order semen, never saw the stallion the flesh and the stud owner the mare. This is absolutely BEYOND ME. The unrealistic results are very prevelent.

Some photograhers are so gifted, they can make a monkey look like a giraffe. So are some painters. I guess that's why there are Rembrandts and Pikassos.(paintings, that is)

In the older books the experts write about the breeding stock, with crutial honesty (Weil/Mabrbach,Babolna, etc. these people were no fools, recognized mistakes, never repeated it. Their horses had to last a m/m of 12 years under saddle at hard work,after they were trained. By enducing the Desertybred horse blood they gained many of their qualities, such as easier keeping, more alert/intelligent,hardier and faster. Now we have breeders who have stallions standing which were never under saddle, people breeding from 2-3 year olds just to get a foal, and then what do we end up selecting from ? this is INSAINE. THEY SHOULD REALLY START BREEDING GOLDFISH, THEY CAN AT LEAST FLUSH THEM DOWN THE TOILET.

Not only this, the mind of some of these georgeous stallions totally deteriate, as does their muscle structure. they become mental and physical retards sooner or later, bored out of their skin, gazing to the stars, praying forelief. So those breeders never,ever state "I love my horses".
They possibly dont realize how CRUEL they are. It's like boxing a child into it's room, while his companions are out there playing, hearing it, not understanding the inhuman punishment. Were is common sense? Were is kindness and compassionm and understanding of the"horse"?? nd than some wonder why some of these horses go bananas, climbing the walls and getting the label "crazy SE's".
Well, I would go crazy too, enduring such harsh and mean punishment.

Well, that's just my opinion, loving and caring for horses so much.

Hansi

Hansi : I LIKE YOU !!!

Don't be surprised about Bastet
the time will show you

But we have to realize : We all can make mistakes

regards,
Bastet

Yes you are right, I make one every day, but will never repeat these.
nice, to be human, eh?

Hansi

Hansi, that is the story about a dull Donkey and the same stones he is bumping his head against several times

But: you are right again:
I made a mistake 30 years ago: In that time I was fallen in love with an arabian stallion

and did not buy it .
I will never make the same mistake again .

Many greetings,
Bastet

Hi Julia,
here some news about the names Tajar 1851, Tajar 1873, Tajar 1862,Tajar 1883,Tajar 1843, Tajar (Kuhailan Haifi I )1934 Koheyl, Koheil, Tajar-Koheil 1869 (Tajar-Koheyl) and of course the year 1872

I was out, took the books with me at home, was the hole day with my nose in old Studbooks and that all on my birthday ! HURRAAYYYYYY ! I think I could not better spend my birthday as I did today......

I have at the moment the following books and please tell me which of them you have as well; it would make me copy perhaps less:
- The Arabian Mares and Stallions in Weil Stud (1816 - 1932) by Wojcitech
Kwiatkowski
- The Raswan Index abridged edition 1988 Library of Congress Catalog Card
Number 88-81971
- A Guide to the complete pedigrees of Arabian Horses from Poland (1790 -
1993) by Wojcitech Kwiatkowski
- The Arabian Horse Famalies of Poland 1800 - 2002 by Britta Fahlgren
published 2004
- Stutbuch Weil-Marbach 1817 - 1971 by Dr. Georg Wenzler 1972

so this first..
hear from you
HANSI interested???
Bastet

Hi Bastet

I do not have - The Arabian Mares and Stallions in Weil Stud (1816 - 1932) by Wojcitech
Kwiatkowski or - A Guide to the complete pedigrees of Arabian Horses from Poland (1790 -
1993) by Wojcitech Kwiatkowski

I do have Britta Fahlgren's first book, soon I hope to have the second, and I have an unabridged Raswan Index and the Weil-Marbach studbook.

Thank you for the trouble you are taking on this. It sure is interesting when a person finds a horse like this, who is hard to trace.
The American Jockey Club Studbook, Volume 3, is supposed to have some information as well

Thank you!
Julia

thanks Bastet, I have all Weil studbooks. BUt I also have pOLAND STUDBUCH/HERDBUCH 1918-68 dam/sire lines . and copies of the French vom Vol.I on forward.


I know that the most important stud/herdbooks are the volume "I".
On those you can build. without it one is guessing. those stud/herdboocks have been the guide for many a researcher, because what is written down, stamped and certified I accept like the "Bible". But they are hard to come by and often it does take to go through archives, and that is not that easy either, it's like pulling teeth.

Julia
my office is right now repaired-hurrican damage- the floor etc.etc.
so I could not look up Weil Studbooks, all burried in the exercise room. Two more days, and I am back to normal- I hope.

My I be that str.forward with this advice:
"dont ever loan one of your books out" I lost this way quite a few and had a hard time finding the replacements.

What I never, ever will understand that our AHRa only printed 750 copies of their stud books, although there were over 30,000 breedersd/owners , with their statement, that that's all they could sell. I usually buy two copies of each. What amazed me no end, that in particular very large breeders here in the USA dont even own a set. While the AHRA database is not quite complete, it is those studbooks which are reliable and a valuable asset. In it you will also find those "syrian imports" while the AHRA refuses to register any now, not accepting the Syrian registry. Amazing, right!

Hansi