Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Point System - Help!?
StraightEgyptians.com Forum > Overview - ‹bersicht > Discussion - Diskussion
Guest
Can anyone tell me about the 10-points-system compared to the 20-points-system?

When using the 10-point-system - what points does a horse need to get silver? and gold?

How can I compare the two systems? If a horse gets lets say 85 points - what would the horse get using the 10-points-system?

Hope someone can help me huh.gif
elsbetha
You can't compare the 20 and 10 point system. You can't double the score from the 10 point system and think it is the same as the 20 point system.
The effect of using the 10 point system is that the judges really have to be on their toes and decide, for example is this horse a 9 or a perfect 10? It has the effect of sorting the the really good horses from the mediochre horses. I'm all for it, its a step in the right direction.
There is, in theory, nothing wrong with the 20 point system either but the judges cannot handle it. Very few, if any, have the courage to use the 20 points correctly. But with the 10 point system they have to think twice.
The point scores in the showring today are ridiculous - we are nearing the 100 point result, what will we do then? Today it is the placement in the class that is important - forget about the points, they don't mean a thing, and as for gold, silver etc that division doesn't exist any longer.
Guest
Hmm.....

But WHAT is the points of something good, something ok, ad something bad?

10=super, perfect
9
8
7
6
5=not good, not bad - ok?

Or what??

A horse that gets 7 - is it a good horse? or not so good?
Fila
Thing is, nobody knows. At least to my knowledge, there is no "interpretation scale", correct me if I'm wrong, and we really, really need one. Like the one Guest have started on.

I do agree with Elsbetha, the scores given at shows today are absolutely useless. Look at Aachen this year - I've never ever seen so many 20s in one day as I did on that Sunday, but I saw very few, if any, perfect or next-to-perfect horses, which is what those super high scores indicate.

Time and time again we see how the 20pts system is abused, as horses toward the end of shows invariably scores a lot higher than the first classes, no matter if the quality of the horses is better or not. Also, a lot of 20s are awarded to traits that are far from perfect, usually in the categories movements and head & neck. And then, when a "true 20"-horse comes along, they score the same! Not fair! mad.gif

And why is only 15-20 used? huh.gif I've seen really abysmal, horrific specimens - no type, no correctness anywhere - scoring around 80 pts, which is ludicrous!

So, can we reform the scoring system, making it more precise, making the numbers mean something? Do we want to?
Or do we like every second horse to score 95 pts? Are we that close to our breeding goal of breeding the perfect arabian? I for one think not.
Hanna S
Hi!

I did some research about this comparison of 10-point system versus 20-point system just couple of months ago, as we have been using 10-point system in our national ECAHO C Show for the last two years here in Finland. There has been lots of confusion, how the medals should be given and what is a good score and what isn't. I also wrote an article about my findings in our Finnish Arabian Horse Society's magazine, but unfortunately the article is written in Finnish, so it is no use to publish the article here...

Anyhow, as somebody stated here before, you cannot really compare these systems with each other. I found for example 28 horses in Sweden that were shown in two shows year 2004 (Bollerup and Swedish Nationals), one using 10-point system and the other 20-point system. On the 10-point system the average score of these horses was 36,22 points, which would only be bronze, if the medals were given as in 20-point system (65-74,99% bronze, 75-84,99% silver, 85-100% gold). On the 20-point system the average score of these SAME 28 horses was 87,14, which is gold medal points. There were only 5 horses that received silver medal points (under 85) and all the rest 23 horses received gold in the show using 20-point system. Rankings of these horses in both shows were nearly identical, so the quality of the shows was the same.

It seems that with 20-point system the medals have lost their meaning as it is clear that 80-90% of shown horses can not be worth the gold medal. It is just absurb idea...

Also with 10-point system, the same ranges can not be used for giving medals as with 20-point system. We noticed that clearly in our show this year and last year, where we used the same ranges divided by two (bronze >32,5, silver >37,5, gold >42,5). On this year's show only one horse managed to get silver, most horses got bronze and even some horses didn't get the medal at all. Quality of the horses in the show was in reality better than before, especially in the 1-3 year old classes, but the scores were much worse than with 20-point system, where our average scores have been high silver medal points (83-84). After the show, owners of the horses were quite confused with the Champion Junior Colt and Filly, Champion Gelding and the Champion Senior Stallion having received bronze medal points and Champion Senior Mare just barely silver.

Because of all this I did more research and noticed that actually quite often the way judges are using this 10-point system is as 20-points, but without the first number. At least in the shows in Sweden and Finland, the judges are in reality using numbers 5-10 in 10-point system and 15-20 in 20-point system, so if you want to compare these systems, the closest thing to do is take all the individual scores of the judges and change 5->15, 6->16, 7->17 ---10->20. This comparison was very accurate to at least those 28 Swedish horses I mentioned before, the scores differing only 1,64% between these two shows. If the scores were just doubled, the difference was 17,34%, which is huge difference (more than one medal range!).

IMHO, ECAHO could give some guidelines, how to use this 10-point system and what kind of medal ranges should be used, as anyhow this system is recommended to all C Shows, so we should learn to use it properly. I am in favor of this system, because with 20-point system the scores have started to be ridiculously high at least in International Shows, but some kind of ranges should be defined for the 10-point system also, so the owner of the horse could know what is a good score and what is not.

Hanna S, Shaaga and Prix
Finland
My Webpage
HLM
Good morning Elsbetha

I agree with you. Points 12 and lower are hardly ever give from the 20 point system. I think this 20point system is used to make it look good. That is an illusion.

To the other poster
a "7" is very good. Not only this the judges give explanations behind each evaluation, why such number is given- sportshorse classes-. that is a good system and brings understanding and education. I am all for it.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Guest
Thank you for these interesting posts! smile.gif

Very very interesting to read the thoughts and compares in your post Hanna - thank you!!
Hanna S
Hi again!

We also use 10-point system here in Finland for evaluation of Warmblood and Hotblood riding horses including TBs and Arabians (Arabians are still considered hotblood riding horses in Finland, although it seems this is forgotten in many other countries, where there is no ridden tests for Arabians required). These shows differ from Arabian Halter Shows quite dramatically, because here you really get written evaluation of your horse and the show is not meant for entertainment but more to actually evaluate the horses for breeding purposes. You can compare these shows to sporthorse classes that have started to become popular in USA also among Arabians...In Finland, if you want your mare to the Stud Book or your stallion licenced, you need to show the horse in this kind of show.

The class/prize ranges (medal ranges) are with this system:

40-50 points = I class/prize (blue and white ribbon)
35-39 points = II class/prize (blue ribbon)
30-34 points = III class/prize (white ribbon)

Mares need to get at least 30 points to get approved to the Stud Book and stallions need to get at least 38 points, both mares and stallions also need to qualify in ridden test. I would consider a score above 35 as good and 38-39 as very good, 40 and over is excellent score (only about 5-10% of all horses shown get this high score). Personally I would not use a mare with score under 35 for breeding, unless she has some exceptional sport results to make up the poor comformation.

However, because WAHO does not want to deny use of any Arabian horse from breeding, it is possible to use any Arabian for breeding also in Finland. Foals from unapproved mares and stallions are registered as purebreds and they can attend to any ECAHO events and Arabian Halter Shows, but they can not get approved for this Warmblood and Hotblood Stud Book. Neither can their get in next three or four generations, so it is worth getting your horse approved.

Hanna S, Shaaga and Prix
Finland
My Webpage
elsbetha
Hallo Hanna!

Does this mean that there is no studbook for purebred arabians in Finland? that approved arabians are included in the same stud book as warmbloods and TBs?
Hanna S
Hi!

This starts to be totally off topic, but I'll write this anyway...smile.gif

No, it does not mean that there is no Stud Book for purebred Arabians in Finland. All purebred Arabians are registered as purebreds using WAHO rules and they get FAR number from WAHO. Finnish Arabian Horse Society keeps the Stud Book for all purebred Arabians and it is printed every 5 years into a book and supplements are published every year. All purebred Arabians are allowed into this Stud Book like WAHO rules state.

However, we have also another registering system by our central organization called Hippos, that keeps record of all the horses and ponies of all breeds in Finland. This central organization is working under Ministry of Agriculture. So, all Arabians get also registry number from this organization and this organization keeps the Stud Book for Warmblood and Hotblood Riding Horses that is then further divided into Stud Book of Finnish Warmblood and Stud Book for Hotbloods (including Arabian, Anglo-Arabian and Throughbred races). To get your horse approved into this Stud Book, they need to be evaluated individually and also their pedigree needs to be acceptable, which means that the horse needs to have at least four generations by approved stallions. Stallions in the Stud Book also go through vet examination and they are x-rayd throughly. And as I stated before, ridden test is required from both stallions and mares (the test for Arabians is very easy though).

This system that breeding animals are evaluated is IMO quite good, although not flawless of course. Problem is e.g. imported horses as other countries don't have similar system as we do, so all imported purebred Arabians are eligable to the Stud Book by their pedigree. This is not always fair as you can have situation, where two horses have identical pedigrees and one is not allowed in the Stud Book and another is. This is the situation, if you take your mare abroad to WAHO country to breed to stallion in that country. Then you bring the mare back and the foal is born. The foal is eligable to the Stud Book, because it was imported in uterus from WAHO member country. On the other hand if you use the semen of that same stallion by AI without approving the stallion with the central organization or import that same stallion to Finland and don't get him approved, the foals born by him are not eligable to the Stud Book of Hippos (only in WAHO Stud Book).

This situation is very complicated and there have been arguments about it, as getting your horse to this Stud Book of Hippos means also money. Hippos pays money to I and II class Stud Book mares and stalllions, they also have evaluations for Stud Book eligable young horses (1-3 yo) and owners and breeders of these young horses also get money, if they get I or II prize in the evaluation. So, of course people with a good horse, but unapproved pegidree, are not happy about it that they miss all this money and need to wait at worst 4 generations to get eligable horse in their breeding program...And by unapproved pedigree I mean fully WAHO acceptable purebred Arabian pedigree. So, there is some dilemma in this, but anyhow WAHO has stated that as long as all our purebred Arabians are registered as such (and they are), no rules are broken and the system is allowed to be like this.

I am quite happy with this as Shaaga is Stud Book eligable and she has gotten money from young horse evaluations, but I sympathize with the owners of good horses that just have unapproved pedigree.

Hanna S, Shaaga and Prix
Finland
My Webpage
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.