Jan 2 2005, 07:25 AM
Just thought I'd ask if there is a list available for SE stallions who have frozen semen available for export. As I am located in Australia, I don't really know what's available out there. So if I could get hold of a list it would be a good start for next year.
All the best.............Debbie.
Jan 2 2005, 05:26 PM
Debbie, I don't think such a list exists. You might try ro ask the various registries. I know of one station where they have frozen semen available, mainly Polish stallions. but also a number of interesting SEs:
Richter MH, ZT Faa'iq, Simeon Shai and perhaps Imperial Alkareem, I am not sure.
Go to http://home2.pi.be/gjamar/Stallions%20of%2...20Christine.htm
. I have no commercial relationship with them, it is just that I happen to know and want to help you. No doubt there are more possibilities. You might contact German breeders, where SEs are plentyful. Some of them have frozen semen availabel from their stallion.
Jan 4 2005, 07:58 AM
I know breeders in Australia which use frozen sperm by the stallion Authentic Ibn Nawaal. If he is interesting for you contact me please for more information.
I thought you were dispersing all you horses as advertised and not breeding anymore so thought it funny that you are after overseas frozen semen when you apparently are no longer breeding.
Jan 4 2005, 08:52 PM
Do you know if a foal born in the USA by Victor can be registered with the AHA?
Jan 5 2005, 07:20 AM
I am keeping my grey 6yo SE mare by Belbowrie Fayek (El Moongi x Belbowrie Fayeka) out of Scandal (PVA Sonbali x Laradene Calima), my chestnut high percentage Egyptian saddle mare by Arabian Park Afraz (Arabian Park Faraz x Arabian Park Elfin) out of Taywoona Shanzeera (Hanzeer x Mon Ami Hasheen), my black yearling SE filly by Taywoona Qariim (Dynasty Qatama x Samiha) out of Kyang Miska (Talihan x Dynasty Damaris) & if possible my grey 2 yo SE filly by Simeon Sinai (Anaza Bay Shahh x Ramses Tinah) out of Kyang Miska (Talihan x Dynasty Damaris). All these horses I am very attached to. I am in the process of selling everything else & have gelded my stallion who will be sold as a saddle mount.
All this has happened because of my continued ill health & my loss of faith in the arab industry. Especially after the death of a lovely filly I bred last year, it knocked me for a six. So I want to step back from breeding but this doesn't mean that I can not help friends who are interested or from my staying informed as to what's out there .......does it???
If you don't want a new car , you're nor allowed to know what's on the market???
I have bred no foals for this season & in the past I have left SE mares empty for some years at a time. I have one mare in foal for next season to a Simeon Sadik son, because the service was paid for some years ago.
In the future I am hoping that I might ....might ....be able to breed a foal every now or then. So does this mean I am not allowed to enquire now??? I am not supposed to remain interested in an animal I have devoted over 30 years of my life to????
Is there any other aspect of my life that you are interested in....perhaps my MRI's or my medical bills for last year?? Or my feed bills??? How much it has cost me to travel overseas????
Hope this may satisfy your interest...............Debbie.
Jan 5 2005, 07:41 AM
Thanks to those that have given me information on stallions with frozen semen available. I appreciate the information, the time & effort you spent getting in to touch with me.
Thank you all................Debbie.
Jan 5 2005, 07:20 PM
Yes Tr-Viktor's foal can be registered with the AHA .
The protocol is made for exportation towards the USA without problems .
Semen Frozen soon will leave for the USA at Taylor Ranch, if you‘re interested Issak Taylor
will be able to forward some to you .
Jan 5 2005, 07:32 PM
Oups !! Sorry The preceding message is of me
Jan 5 2005, 08:44 PM
There are three SE stallions standing here at my farm in 2005.
CDRS Kid Shailiin (Simeon Shai x Ak Asal Moniet)
Dahmraks Shah Mailas ( Dahmraks Shah Mandub x Bint Moneefa)
Za Zu (Crusader x Pearl Queen by Shahin)
it is always good to know what is available, if you dont enquire you never learn..
Jan 7 2005, 10:38 AM
Debbie, I have just heard that the will be some Ibn Nawaal semen comming to Aust.....have no idea why any one would want to breed to a stallion they have not seen...how would you expect a mare to be right for a stallion whom has only been seen in pictures or on a video....maybe too much is put on a pedigree ...
An American Breeder
Jan 7 2005, 02:04 PM
Some of us don't have any other choice. I bred to a stallion I had never seen. However, I talked to several who had seen this horse. I checked what lines of mares had been bred to him. I looked at photos of many of his foals. I talked to the owner who has quite candid about how he produced with different lines.
I got about what was to be expected from the one mare, and the foal was better than the mare in the areas I wished to strength. I did lose the head of the mare because of the strong Sameh influence. On the other mare, I got FAR more than I had expected and kept a lovely head.
FOR ME, here in the USA, can someone please outline all the steps, the rig-a-ma-roe that one must go through to get frozen semen here from overseas?????? Not to mention finding a vet that knows something about frozen !
Jan 7 2005, 02:05 PM
Thanks for that info guest,
Pedigrees hold a wealth of information & I agree that there is some risk involved using semen from a stallion you haven't seen in the flesh. However I have the added advantage that I know some very knowledgeable people, who if they don't know a certain horse, they could soon put me on to some one who does.
I have known some great breeders of the past who virtually only bred by pedigree & they seemed to have got it right!!
Of course coming from such a big country as Australia it can be very difficult to see stallions in our own country let alone overseas. There are stallions here I would have no problems breeding to sight unseen. Here we do not have a vast amount of stallions to choose from, we have to look either towards USA or Europe. I sure as heck can't afford to fly around the world looking at stallions..........as much as I would like to!!!! Here in Australia it seems, that if it hasn't come from o.s. then it's not worth having!!!
The more info that you can aquire about any animal is well worth the effort. I do intend to breed my black filly at some stage in the future & so I am looking for suitable "husbands" now. I like to do my research well & consult with people I trust, especially in regard to a stallion I know very little about.
As American Breeder states .....some of us don't have any other choice.
All the best...........Debbie.
Jan 7 2005, 09:52 PM
I read this tread and was at first hesitant to "butt " in... but here goes...if in Australia if it has not come from o.s. then what do you do with the colts you produce your self ? I'm not sure I would believe some-ones world about an stallion for I feel I would be the only person would know what "kind" of horse I wanted to breed.....lets face it how many people would admit to all if any ... their faults in a horse.... Dont get me wrong but I feel that frozen semen has come about more to promote the stallion than it's true worth...That is to preseve the blood for future generations and should only come into play when the stallion is dec.....Why would you want it before hand ? ...As to not haveing a choice else here....do you feel that a stallion by a frozen semen from a sire over seas would make them any where more excepted in Aust. than by a local stallion ? Being born in Aust would make them a local with the added factor of not haveing Imp. behind it's name.There also is the "tall poppy" thing to consider and last but not least here in Australia there already is a gelding produced by frozen semen could you be so hard to sum up what you breed via frozen to geld considering the costs involved ?Please I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to understand all the hype behind Frozen semen...thanks Alex
An American Breeder
Jan 7 2005, 10:21 PM
I understand your thought process Alex. Breeding by frozen semen is sooooo very expensive. And if the foal is a colt and not what you feel is top, the absolute 1% of the best of all, then the result should be a gelding and what a terrible loss on all you have invested.
Am I summing it up correctly?
Jan 7 2005, 11:11 PM
Thank-you American Breeder...would this also apply to a filly ..ie standard to be kept high...I just wonder the standard of the mares that these huge amounts of money are being invested in....I just somehow feel that some people may think that to breed to" Frozen "semen is a fast track to a "great '' horses.....some what a false belief with a sad but sorry end in sight...I don't mean to be negative , just wish to totally understand the logic behind this type of breeding...thankyou Alex
Jan 8 2005, 12:45 AM
My interest is purely to improve. If I breed a colt that I'm not happy with I geld it. You mention the high costs of frozen semen. The cost of trucking a mare from Victoria to let's say Queensland & back will be over $1,500, then you have agistment, vet fees & then finally the stud fee. SO that is going to run into a fair amount....yes??? I myself am an AI tech, so I could cut the costs down by using chilled or frozen semen if it were available for the stallion I have chosen.
IF I find a stallion that I like, with a pedigree that I like.... but he is on the other side of the world then the only solution for me is frozen semen.
I have had stallions with beautiful old desert pedigree's who were of true desert type & very correct that NO ONE was interested in because they weren't fashionable.
Frozen semen is not a "fast track to a great horse" but it may be a step in the process.
Let's face it we all breed what we like. I am just asking for information on what's out there so that in the future I have as much information to make a choice from as I can possibly find. It may be that I use an Aussie stallion via natural or frozen/chilled semen. Or it may be that I take the big step of importing semen. This can only be decided on by considering all available information.....yes???
To wait for a stallion to die & then decide to use him via frozen semen may be put the horse behind the cart. What happens if he dies before you have collected from him?? What happens if his semen has a short freezing "lifespan"???
I am not saying that frozen/chilled semen is the way to go, I am just saying that we have extra choices & I am in the process of seeking those choices out. It may be that I breed to nothing, but I still want to be in a position to make an informed decision.
Some people do not agree with AI some do. Bear in mind that cattle breeders the world over have been improving herds for many years with frozen semen. This is done with a huge amount of research on pedigree, type & performance.
All the best.........Debbie.
Jan 8 2005, 02:27 AM
Thankyou Debbie, What you say sure makes this topic easier to understand.
I think if something positive is to come out of this , it is.....With the standard of horses across the world now much closer in overall standard.....people just "might "start to realize that a stallion who is bred and born in the country it resides....can produce just as well to a stallion used via frozen semen...and in many cases is proberly better suited to the mares lines as well as " Type "....
This just maybe is what the industry needs to bring back some "Faith '' to some breeders who are walking away
....After all , who do you think bred these stallions in the first place .....and there lies the true " loss"....the breeders
Thank you Alex
Jan 10 2005, 12:03 AM
I've been following this thread with interest. I can see Elizabeth's point along with Debbie's as it's similar to my own. I'm always looking. Frozen semen - if all goes to plan is still a consideration in comparison to importing a stallion.
....With the standard of horses across the world now much closer in overall standard.....
This is where I feel a personal benefit would be for our stud's use of frozen semen - I don't require the "much closer in overall standard". The Breed is one of variety after all, legitimate Bedouin bred frames, but its getting difficult to find absolute variety as its not "in vogue" at the the moment!! Particularly if notice is taken of the importations over the last few years to this huge island!
So - imp as imp doesn't figure for me. Imp in terms of selection choice, does
I'm hoping and a wishing that the stallions I think will suit my mare are available via viable frozen semen
and that other like minded Arabian breeders have enough faith in the Bedouin Bred Desert Horse to have their stallions tested!
Its an expensive process for the possibility of a client!!
Jan 10 2005, 02:47 AM
Diane with an interesting response like yours....Who would you best like to use throu frozen semen ?...and why is it said that the stallion should be "tested" all the time when a mare has as much input into the foal....should she not be accountable for her influence as well.... or will her pedigree and conformation be enough ?
Please I don't mean to be taken the wrong way, just never understood the reason behind the poor stallion haveing to prove himself all the time....after all ..did he not come from a mare...
... your thoughts please...
Jan 10 2005, 02:51 AM
A completely valid point Alex!
Jan 10 2005, 03:42 AM
Some of my thoughts.
1. Perhaps the reason is you might want to infuse "new blood" an outcross if you will for, what is locally available. I call that good planning.
2. No 2 horses are alike, and any reputable breeder will tell you what their stallions faults are. Myself for instance, lol...I will beVERY up front in wishing my stallion had a little bigger eye. I think he needs to be bred to mares with beautiful eyes.
On the other hand..he has GREAT legs, incredible movement, and awesome neck, Excellent bloodlines and a terrific personality.
3. I know several people who would have like to breed to a specific stallion before AI, and the cost of shipping the mare to the stallion then either shipping her home (and possibly losing the foal to stress, etc) and shipping her home was beyond their means financially...however, AI solved their problem.
Jan 10 2005, 05:24 AM
QUOTE (AlexGuest @ Jan 10 2005, 03:47 AM)
Diane with an interesting response like yours....Who would you best like to use throu frozen semen ?...and why is it said that the stallion should be "tested" all the time ... your thoughts please...
Alex - I'm open to suggestions, so no names at the moment
By suggesting "tested" I'm referring to the frozen semen - rather than horse himself
I'd like to know for the money I will spend there will be a fair chance of a conception
.... unless there is a suitable stallion's semen that needs to be tested and costs reduced or negated even an exchange
Jan 10 2005, 06:13 AM
I am not going to come into the discussion on using stallions overseas instead of local/ this country, but I would like to make a point to Diane's comment on 'Testing' the quality of semen.
This is a valid point, but has very little relevence to the final result, ie: positive preg test. Before breeding with frozen semen we did a great deal of research and asked many questions of our AI technician to make sure we had planned everything.
Semen quality is only a small part of the process.... many stallions have poor quality, but have great conception rates. The mares health and breeding ability (ie internal) have a large part as does the AI techs ability. All I can say is ask lots of questions and if you decide to go ahead with a breeding, get lots of references and refferals.
Jan 10 2005, 06:31 AM
Hi Diane, your point in the semen beeing " tested" is a valid point...There is now way to know this unless it results in foals on the ground...
and I do mean foals...
I have knowledge first hand many problems with breeding this way....sometimes the problem lies with the stallion, sometimes with the mare and some with the procedure and handling from "whoa to go"...
I have had many a discussion with people who have used frozen semen as well as witness this technique in the "early years"....
I just have one concern and that is....because not all stallions freeze that well... might we just be putting too much faith in this type of breeing ?....and are we letting this rule our future sires of our breed ?....
Your thoughts please , thanks Alex
Jan 10 2005, 10:07 AM
QUOTE (AlexGuest @ Jan 10 2005, 07:31 AM)
...and are we letting this rule our future sires of our breed ?....
Your thoughts please , thanks Alex
and I do agree with his theory as presented in the text. As for being aware of the short-comings of anything artificial ~ including breeding horses and watching / listening to experiences of those around me who care to share, I think I can safely say that I am aware of what it takes in undertaking a breeding other than natural! My region also supports a very good equine practice which specialises in AI / chilled & frozen semen practices along with embryo transfer. Do I look forward to putting my mare(s) through the process of umpteen checks, scans, foreign substances into their bodies along with the possibility of drugs invading their systems etc - quite simply, no. Its a bit like being between a rock and a hard place... a Catch 22
I'd like to breed to a stallion type which is not readily available except by artificial means for an alternative and yet complementary foal. If a decision is made, and its yet to be made, it will be made with full knowledge of all the procedures, implications, costs (financial, physical, emotional) etc and most importantly with considerations to the Breed.
Time... time will tell.
Jan 12 2005, 02:12 AM
This is how a lady that used frozen semen put it to me: she dreamed of breeding her special mare to this wonderful stallion, whom she had long admired, and his bloolines were either not available in NZ or were available but not of the quality she desired. To buy a worthy young son of his, would cost $50,000-$100,000 (US dollars were approx. double NZ dollars) to buy, plus import costs, plus the waiting time for the colt to mature, and the resulting foal would be a grandbaby, not a direct son or daughter, of that dream stallion. The AI cost $10,000 all up. Yes the possibiltiy of a crap foal (or no foal) which cost $10,000 was there. This was an accepted risk. However, to spend $100,000 on a colt was absolutely impossible and would have never happened, save for a Lottery windfall. Thus she bred her mare to that stallion via frozen semen.
Jan 12 2005, 02:51 AM
Hi Hoogie...well you kind of left the story half un said.....
how did this turn out ? ....was there a result in getting a foal ? ...and is the foal worth all the finacial risks as well as efforts?....
and is the resulting foal more superior and does it live up to ones ''dreams" ?....
Jan 12 2005, 05:26 PM
The first point is to go through the usual techniques of choosing the right stallion for your mare.
The second point is to make sure the vet/owner on the other end has a good success rate in frozen conception. Some stallions' semen are infertile after freezing.
The third point is to make sure your vet is properly experienced in frozen semen. My vet was the breeding point for Hanovarian frozen semen here in the Northwest. He studied both in Germany and our best site in the US, Colorado State University. As a result, he has had a 100% success rate for foals from frozen semen for a number of years. It is not cheap. He has the mare in his care and tests her at least twice a day to check for the optimum breeding time.
The bottom line is that it opens up a new world of available sires.
Suggestions that AI or freezing produces less quality that natural breeding is completely unfounded.
Jan 12 2005, 10:15 PM
@ Pete...I'm not suggesting that freezing produces less quality and am sorry if I led you to believe this....how ever....let me tell you about something that I have witnessed first hand and this is where my concerns lie....
when frozen semen first become avaliable in my country I was told this so may stand as a "fact"...
.the stallion owner placed his/her stallion in to a collection center and made available to other countries around the world ''frozen semen''....it was at the time their intention to make this stallion " famous "and one way in doing this was to have stock by him in all corners of the world.....with this lies a problem....
a young filly was born by him and has a problem that is found in her sire line and has been spoken of in other threads here.....
at the time the breeder of the filly realized there was a problem with the filly and even made some enquires to have the problem "fixed" through sergical means....might I add nothing was done about it which I am pleased ....
however this is the begining of a bigger problem for the fily... now a mare ...has produced a colt with the same problem but now more worse than the dam....
the foal was sold as a breeding animal.....
now seeing as a stallion can produce far more than a mare over a life time seems this problem will show up many times over....
this is my main concern with useing a stallion one is not familiar with for you only get to see the best pictures of him as well as the best of his progeny....you don't get the advantage of visiting the stud or seeing first hand what his owner has bred for the past generations.... and compared yourself this stock against others in a show ring against others... regardless of how the judge places the entries...
.this due in part that a interested mare owner can not afford the to travel all over the world....
I'm just saying this... that through '' hipe '' of frozen semen in our country we now have a heredity problem which was not seen much before here ....and now will be past on to new mare breeders who are not familiar with the problems associated through this new sire line...
.it just seems that an "informed choice " has now taken away from an unexpecting mare owner ....
this is what concerns me most about this technique...
I'm not totaly against frozen semen use ...just concerned with problems people don't want to talk about...
Thank you Alex
Jan 13 2005, 01:46 AM
Alex, I was not referring to you.
But I do accept your point. We also see it in America. Some folks would breed to any new National Champion, no matter how bad he might be. We also have a big promotional group that concentrates on new horse owners who don't know just how bad their horses really are. This really gets a lot of poor quality out there in a hurry. Lots of different ways to a bad end.
Jan 13 2005, 02:12 AM
Pete you are sure right with many " ways to a bad end "....
it's got me thinking again...
if it costs so much to breed this way ...then why don't mare owners put some of this expence into futher research and visit these stallions and find out for them self first hand problems that may lie ahead...
I would think that if the costs run around $ 10 ,000 dollars then first using even half this amount in travel...would gain knowledge that could just be priceless in the long run....
at best you may have to put breeding plans back a year to replenish money used in travel...
who knows , you could travel with a friend on the same mission and further cut costs....
you may even not even loose a years breeding if you were to use an out cross in your own back yard which would further gain knowledge of just how much input you mare may give....
this would be priceless on a newly aquired mare or maiden...
I for one would not want to be in a hurry to get " to a bad end "....
Jan 13 2005, 03:59 AM
More good logic, Alex. However, I don't even know anyone with Arabians who has used frozen semen. I haven't even had my stallion tested for it. Of course, we have lots of nice stallions in the US. We DO use a lot of cooled shipped semen. That can be a blessing or a curse. You have to know what you are doing. I lost $30,000 plus $13,000 in breeding fees on stallions who wouldn't ship well. The only one who worked gave me my best ever filly. I bought him (Rahima, my Imdal son). I also learned every bad thing that could happen in shipping. As a result, my shipping of his semen works virtually every time. But I sure paid for that knowledge.
Good luck with your choices.
Jan 13 2005, 12:42 PM
I was planning on offering Saareef this year, but now, finding out all the costsi nvolved, including the quarantine for minimun30 days, it would have to be done AFTER show season. I am hoping to test him for frozen semen this year. His cooled semen was awesome, still viable with high motility after 4 days!
The biggest problem I see is the costs of the testing, the costs of the quarantine, etc. Never having done this before, I am going to ask a stupid question. I assume the additional fees involved are paid by the mare owner?
I almost wonder if it would be more cost effective to choose a mare and stallion here in the US and import an in utero foal?
Jan 13 2005, 10:56 PM
I would say that when you recieve the service fees from a mare owner this would go towards the costs involved for you....
I guess that you would have to sell a few sevices to get the costs back.....
a mare owner I feel has his/her own out of pocket expense and at best will put " faith " in your stallion to freeze well.....
you can test these things but the only true result I believe is a " live foal on the ground " not just a positve preg. test....
you need to look into things on your end as best you can and one thing I think needs consideration is the natural breeding season of stallions....
I believe this can fall quiet abit after the stallions normal season.... mares have a point at the end of the season when they "close" down so to speek....so stallions may just as well too......
this said not all stallions fall into this but no way of knowing unless you test...
can I ask you this....
why do you wish to have your stallion avaliable this way ?....I'm just trying to understand the stallion owners point of view....
for we have heard earlier from mare owners and it would be nice to hear the other side of the story...
Thank you Alex
Jan 14 2005, 03:29 AM
Hi Alex, to reply to your question about the 'rest of the story'... well, I can't go into too much detail as it is a very small breeding community here and I have not asked permission to repeat the story.
However, I can tell you that there are two breeders who attempted it... one was not successful (no foal), but the 'dream' is still alive and the breeding is still available however a more suitable mare may have to replace the original (she was too old, IMO). The other was very successful - foal on the ground and a quality one at that - and is continually using frozen semen from overseas.
You have highlighted some important, practical points. Anyone considering using frozen semen should go and see the stallion, and his family, in person, no matter where he is. Surely most people do this - or do you know of people going into it 'blind', off photos and videos only? That would be risky.
As far as genetic mismatches between overseas stallions and local mares.... surely this risk is just as great within stallions that have been recently imported.... one never knows for sure if their investment was worth it until they try? I appreciate and applaud those who bring new bloodlines into the country through imported horses, and I would feel the same of those who use frozen semen, as long as they have done their homework, as you suggest.
Jan 14 2005, 04:03 AM
Hoogie I am pleased that though this process you in NZ will have new breeding lines to continue with ....
I can not speek about every one who has used this method but do believe some have bred this way off "photos, videos or a pedigree...even through faith in the word off mouth "....
I under stand where a genetic miss match with a stallion imported into a country could also breed not what one thought would do so ....
but at least in this case I know of no-one in our modern day who would import a stallion with out seeing him first hand as well family members etc...
this would still be better than the picture, video my word effort....
I just wish that mare owners would do all their home work and this would include to at the very least " view" the stallion they wish to use....
after all just how sucseful would they feel that their resulting foal was if they do not truely know what good point came from who....
Jan 14 2005, 05:45 AM
anyone breeding - artificial or not should see the intending stallion to be used. These breeders should also know conformation "backwards". Artificial just means its potentially easier to access bloodlines which are not available in the country in which the mare is domiciled. Extremely valid points have been raised here.
Jan 14 2005, 07:43 AM
I have just read through the posts as I haven't been on line for awhile. When I posted this thread I did so, so that I might have access to information .........not to start a debate on whether or not AI is right or wrong..
People have been on defending Ai others to knock it down. I am NOT trying to say that AI is the way to go, but I am saying that I have the right to choose.
Would anyone care how much I spent if I shipped my mare overseas to be bred? I think not, so why question the costs involved when it is some one else who wants to do this? I am not asking anyone else to pay if I decide to AI my mare. Would anyone care whether or not my foal was ok if I shipped my mare overseas to be bred........I think not. To ship a mare overeas from Australia is way out of my league BUT I might just be able to manage some frozen semen.....this is my choice.
Each & every one of us has a different idea of what is correct or typey or what ever. We also each have pedigrees that we prefer over others, so we all get to choose what we want & how we go about it.
So as I read it, all those people anti AI wouldn't want any frozen semen from.......Morafic.........Nazeer...........Nabiel or any of the many passed champions???
Those against AI are you also against donated human semen? Are you against the invetrofertilisation program that has help thousands of women conceive? If you had testicular cancer you wouldn't want your own semen kept if possible & if not you wouldn't consider donated semen? In the case of ovarian cancer you wouldn't want your eggs frozen? If that wasn't possible you wouldn't consider any of the other options available??
Just my opinion,what it's worth .............which I guess is nothing.
To those who supplied information, I thank you.
I am sorry I was just so stupid to ask such a way out question.........shame on me.
Jan 14 2005, 08:27 AM
Debbie I understand what you say....
I'm not anti frozen semen ...and I'm sure others who have had a say are not as well....
I was just hopeing to air a few things that people may not have thought about....
some issues raised are better let out in the open for " discussion" so as to educate thous amongst us....
many things in todays comunities are frowned in human form such as " cloneing "more due to the unknown " factor '' than the available science we have at hand....
I just feel that 50---100 yrs from now...
.someone else may have to fix something we have made today ....
I understand the choice is yours to take and you may breed what ever way you choose....
but I do wish that you were to stop for a moment....to think about the foundation you lay today and who will be dealing with this in the future....
I really hope this will not become the new " fad " and I feel it just might allready be....
so as you can tell from the posts before....it has not " been such a stupid way out question " and I feel that there have been many people whom have gained much knowledge as well as understanding....
to this I thank you for raising the question....
Jan 14 2005, 08:47 AM
Alex, all of your points on breeding and choosing a stallion on confirmation /faults etc, are very valid. But I feel you are being very hard by 'blaming' frozen semen for passing on the faults (throught mare owners not viewing stallions). This form of haphazard breeding is happening every foaling season, with normal service. I would have to say all the people that I know that have also used an overseas stallion, have actually done more homework, ask more opinions on the prospective stallions and been more critical on their mares faults. This is due to the high costs and risks involved.
Diane hit the nail on the head perfectly..... ALL breedings should be well thought out. I am not sure what state of Australia you live in Alex, but I invite you to view a wider varity of frozen semen foals. I have not seen 1 in my area with BAD faults - not saying this has happened. But I have seen lots of bad faults through matings planned just on show results, pretty heads or 'snot'.
Debbie - do not apoligise for this discussion. And I hope you find who you are looking for.
Jan 14 2005, 11:28 AM
OK Miranda....for the record ...I live on the East Coast...
as to what foals I have see ....
Sambist -2colts...Samsheik - 1 filly dec..Legacy of Gold ---3 colts , 1 filly ,1colt is dec....Padron Psyche --2colts , 1is dec....5 fillies , 1 is dec....Ansata Sinan 1 filly, TR Viktor - 1 filly...S.F Valentino - 1 colt....now there have been others born but I have not see them all.....
wow I didn't realize there were that many until I started to add them up....
now three foals have no record for they were not registed ....seems all one needed to do was apply for a covering form for use on at mare intended to be used for frozen semen...
this may have changed and you may know the answer to this....
as to mare owners that breed to a stallion naturally without seeing them here in the country....what can I say but wow....
maybe if the service fees were higher like in your case with frozen boys they might rethink this a little....
I myself have never and would never breed to a stallion that I have not viewed but this is my choice...
I have only ever bred a handful of foals over the years...
.I have spent more time and money on travel to see my beloved arabian at shows and in their homes... and just in general learning and enjoying them :)so in saying this good luck to all the breeders out there no matter which way you put your choice as to which way you breed...
Jan 15 2005, 01:24 AM
I'm rather perplexed that you are so hesitant to use Ai/frozen semen & yet you are totally for Embryo transfer? This ,quite frankly amazes me.
To say that frozen semen may lead to something that will have to be fixed in the future is also an open statement. There is nothing to say that if I bred a horse by natural service now, that it won't lead to a problem in the future. There will always be "an unknown factor".
There are many mares bred whose owners have never seen the stallion, many may have chosen the stallion from pedigree only. This is their choice & I don't believe anyone has the right to riducule another for this. There have been many breeding where both the sire & dam have been selected, pedigree's gone over with fine tooth combs & yet the resulting foal just wasn't what was expected..........that's what you get when breeding anything............it's the unknown factor.
Living here in Australia makes it difficult to go out & see every horse you are interested in. That is not to say that I wouldn't ask people I know & trust if they know the horse & of some one who does. I guess it comes down to what you can afford. If I had the money to hop in a plane & fly around the world looking at horses you can darn well be assured that I would. But I haven't so I can only do the best I can. But I will have done my homework, I will have studied pedigree's & anything else you can think of.
There is no way I would just jump in & breed via frozen semen without all the information I could get hold of.
I repeat: Cattle breeders have been improving herds for years via frozen semen...........Debbie
Jan 16 2005, 03:41 AM
QUOTE (tiawarraGuest @ Jan 15 2005, 02:24 AM)
I repeat: Cattle breeders have been improving herds for years via frozen semen...........Debbie
uhmmm, this is a brazen statement : for as much "improvement
" there's as many other problems being multiplied! But then cattle are different - the are an edible commodity more so than the horse! Using AI in cattle makes things happen quicker and potentially narrowing the gene pool depending on how selective the farmers are. Particularly if they are breeding for selective attribute(s) ie meat, milk etc and not the whole? A 'bonus' would be the ability to find a culprit depending on the extent the semen is used
Then what; what would the alternatives be? The gene pools are narrowing with focus on particular animals (in this instance stallions). This is happening in Arabian Horses due to the perceived focuses when the Breed as a whole can ill afford to have a narrow gene pool. If AI is used to help keep the already restricted gene pool variable, then to my mind, this is acceptable. If its used to focus on moderisms - where's the Breed going to end up??
Jan 16 2005, 09:12 AM
If AI is used to help keep the already restricted gene pool variable, then to my mind, this is acceptable. If its used to focus on moderisms - where's the Breed going to end up??
I think the costs involved will prevent this.... it costs on average NZ$13 (that's thirteen dollars) to get a cow in calf to AI!
An American Breeder
Jan 16 2005, 02:35 PM
But Hoogie, they train people at all levels everywhere how to inseminate a cow so there goes the vet costs! And they can take the frozen straw and just insert it into the cow -- or so I was told. Here, the semen has to be thawed out, warmed, etc etc etc etc and makes for just a field day in costs with the vet.
Jan 16 2005, 09:15 PM
There are differences between cattle and horses. Viva la Difference!
Jan 17 2005, 01:34 AM
American Breeder, that's exactly what I meant. The costs of AI with cattle are so low (for a number of reasons, vet costs just a small part.... my husband is an AI technician) that lack of genetic diversity is occuring within dairy cattle herds because of over-using popular sires. Yes, the cows have improved in production because of AI, that goes without saying, but there are inbreeding problems and other unforseen problems coming through like poor foot conformation etc. Regarding horses, however, with of the huge costs involved, AI is unlikely to cause a reduction in diversity.... even without vet costs and if you can do the AI yourself, there is the big whopper stud fees to begin with, then the fact mares are so much harder to get in foal than a cow just because of their tiny "window of opportunity" in the breeding cycle, stallion semen does not freeze/thaw as successfully as bulls, etc etc....
Jan 17 2005, 03:55 AM
QUOTE (Hoogie @ Jan 17 2005, 02:34 AM)
...that lack of genetic diversity is occuring within dairy cattle herds because of over-using popular sires.
Yes, the cows have improved in production because of AI, that goes without saying, but there are inbreeding problems and other unforseen problems coming through like poor foot conformation etc.
Regarding horses, however, with of the huge costs involved, AI is unlikely to cause a reduction in diversity....
Hoogie, with consideration to your thoughts/theory ~ if there are enough people intending to use AI via chilled / frozen semen and their focus is on breeding to popular sires
regardless of costs, then there will ultimately be a problem created by a lack of genetic diversity through this methodology? Particularly if people who use natural matings also focus on popular sires
. This scenario would intensify the need for preservation programs but even these may well have the potential to become limited - economic constraints and viability for the foals of preservation programs to be incorporated back into the main-stream of bloodline preferences due to potential lack of education regarding the Breed as a whole - both historically and physically?
Jan 21 2005, 08:50 AM
I can remember when we made the step from Commercial hereford breeding to Stud hereford breeding. Let me assure you that non of our precious stud cattle were edible. In fact one bull, Warbash, was my favourite & lived out his life, well after he was productive to us.
Yes we saw stud bulls advertised & used that were not of good conformation. From the USA we were bombarded with catalogues showing bulls with huge briskets almost sweeping the ground ........that had a tiny tiny pelvis!! Now how the hell anyone expected heifers bred from these lines to calve was beyond me. There were bulls advertised with little or no pigment around the eye, this is a must in Australia with our climate. BUT we knew our cattle & of course did not bring those bloodlines in. This was long ago, a lifetime ago it some times feels.
Stud cattle breeders are just as passionate about their livestock as we are. I have known breeders both beef & dairy all my life. I have seen them ( & helped them at times) improve their herds with frozen semen. The were just as protective of their cows as we are our mares.
So now, yes I would seek out frozen semen, & yes I would use it if I found the right horse for my girls & IF I wanted to breed. For my friends who I pass the information on to, well I can't speak for them. Believe me IF I breed my favourite girl in the future it will be to the best "husband" I can find for her.
All the best......................Debbie.
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