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K2A
It's called...LUCK
Weather you breed al naturel or AI or Frozen...It's breeding.
I Love it! Las Vegas is next in April 07.
Science is involved without mention...Sue Ellen:)
Was at Chattooga this weekend.
Saw your boys.
Kenna
G. Bell
QUOTE (Suellen Taylor @ Sep 7 2006, 03:03 PM)
Hello all..I am hopping in here late...and have only read a few pages...however, I must say there are several posters I totally agree with.

Having the ONLY frozen semen foal..to date..of Dakharo, and a beautiful filly to boot..I can say I far and away prefer this route...It takes a little knowledge, and as Robert says, some timely AI's..but it works..and well!

I also have now validated Richteous' frozen semen, as I will have HIS first frozen semen foal in 2007 ..and with a post ov insemination of 8 straws only. (got lucky..LOL)

Now, saying all that sounds like I am patting myself on the back, and I am not trying to do that......what I am sayng, is that IF you want superior stallions for your mares, do NOT be afraid to go the frozen semen route..just read, learn, talk to other people, and study..with or without your vet (s)..

It is a workable situation, and far better than some out there! rolleyes.gif

TOP Of The Hill Arabians
*

Dear Sue Ellen,
Congratulations on your upcoming foals from the frozen semen of 2 very good
and beautiful stallions.
You are open minded and intelligent.
If any one doubts the great ability of frozen semen, ask Judi Guess in Texas
about her two, not one, embryo transfer fillys. They are both beautiful. One was sold while still on her (recipient) mother's side. This was one breeding cycle and both e.t.'s are from one breeding. The owner of one had the Supreme Champion mare this year at The Event. Maybe she will have another Supreme mare some day. ANd if that is not enough, ask the people who have champion foals from the frozen semen of Anaza El Farid. One of them is Farid Nile Moon. One of Farid Nile Moon's foals from frozen semen is the grey colt that Allison of Talaria imported.
I know there are others but do not know all of them.
Good Luck.
George
guest
QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 10 2006, 08:03 PM)
Dear Liz

I appreciate what you saying, but degree or no degree, it was also determined that a bee cant fly, but she does, based on her build.

What you refer to we can eat, so should be eat the horses too?

I have seen many excellent offspring with smaller breeders, and it is imposibble also for you to see them all, or for me. But you havent even seen our horses, although in the area, visiting a farm who is not that long in breeding horses, with limited knowledge in testing horses, etc.
But it was a board member of the PS.

I dont know if you visited the Houseknechts downhere, who always bred good horses and both David and Paula are excellent horseman/woman and ride and train well. And there are others.

Of course time is always short and one can do only so much, which I understand.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
*


"But you haven't seen our horses,"
Who has? When is the last time you have shown one, yourself or with a trainer.
I think your storys are delusional. Don't write about your great horses when
its not been proven. A bunch of horses running in a pasture proove nothing.
If you have nothing that can go to a show, any show, under saddle, then
you are making it all up. Riding 20, 30 yrs. ago, as many people, prove nothing about the horses you bred in the last 20 years. You can proove nothing.
This thread is supposed to be about Frozen Semen. Why are you self-promoting
a bunch of pasture ornaments?
Guest
Hansi

I do not wish to become a target of yours, as I have been in the past, so I chose to log in as a "Guest" and am gladly hiding behind that status!! biggrin.gif

From what I've read so far, please correct me if I'm wrong (good lord I know you will smile.gif ), you have never used AI or Frozen Semen in your breeding program, do not agree with AI or Frozen Semen usage, nor those foals produced by such techniques? unsure.gif

It's obvious you have gathered a world of experience over the ages, but I do question your conclusions when you don't have any first-hand experience using AI or Frozen semen? Again, please correct me if I'm wrong. huh.gif

IMO if you were presented with a line-up of foals/mare/stallions to evaluate and were not permitted access to their pedigrees, how they were conceived, or who their owners were etc., you could not make a determination as to which were produced by natural cover and which were produced by AI or Frozen semen. cool.gif

Many large and small breeders have used AI or Frozen Semen in their breeding programs for years, and with excellent results (I am one). smile.gif IMO, Hansi, since you cannot base any of your conclusions on fact, but seemly have decided to on your beliefs (which is fine with me if those are you beliefs), then this is a topic for which you need to learn to "agree to disagree", instead of negatively critizing those of us that do use it and are truly dedicated breeders. dry.gif

JMHO, and I proudly hide behind my status as "Guest"! biggrin.gif
HLM
Hi Kelly

Yes, you made me laugh. Thanks. Mind you countries can always do what Belgium does, register for slaughter horses- and for others.

What made me think part of the night is the statement that imported SE Stallions in Australia by enlarge are not available to the public. If this is true, it is in my opinion a selfish and undermining behavior. Importers to the USA and Canada, South America and other nations dont have such arrogant, self serving attitude. Matter of fact the large breeders helped the newcommers and smaller breeders in every way.

I recommend that these importers/breeders read through volume One of the Australian Studbook, in particular starting with Page 24. May be they dont even own such studbooks?

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
No K2A, breeding is NOT LUCK. it is an art and trial and error its ingredience.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Guest

You never have to hide behind your "guest" name, be proud to stand up for what you believe. thee is nothing on this earth one cant discuss intelligently and come to a conclusion.

My reply to you is, YOU ARE RIGHT. No longer can I tell what sire or dam or line it is when I look at the horses presented at the EEs. I have to ask, who is the sire and dam.

Years ago, when even more horses entered classes, I could tell by enlarge what
sire or breeder was present, without looking at a catalogue. I.e. "that is a son/daughter of so and so" etc. Or "you really see soandso coming through" in the horse lined up.

I am not just talking the looks of a horse, but mainly its conformation.
Instantly you could recognize the offspring of Morafic, Zaghloul, Faleh, Tammen, Gassir, Ibn Hafiza, Rashad Ibn Nazeer, Lothar, Khofo, SF Ibn Nazeer, Ibn Moniet E Nefous, Dalul, Halima, Sakr, etc and many Babsons. This you can do here at our farm seeing the senior stallions and their offspring.

But it goes a step further. We all knew what good or bad points such stallions put on. Also the mares. Doug Marshal used to say " All the chestnut El Sareii offspring have a few white hairs at the dock of their tails". Knowing the good and bad points one tries to in or outbreed, most certainly not to duplicate.

What I am seeing now are often fragile Stallions, beautiful to look at like a painting some are, yet no substance etc. Heads on them become more and more feminine too. Most of all many do not have a conformation/structure to do hard work or for that matter much work and as their pedigree by their ancestors should be. How often do I hear nowadays" just like grandma/grandpa- referring to something special of an offspring. I dont!

Now explain to me why this is? Explain to me why offspring bred by natural service can be easier identified , provided no Ai horse is in such pedigree and their AI sibblings not. By this I mean not just the looks but also the conformation/structure. Were do all these bad faults come from, including inferior movement- short shoppy strides, etc?
Why does the EAO refuse to use AI? Why do the TB industry refuse it? These are highly experienced breeders.

this subject will always be controversial because money and hard work is involved and some folks like to take short cuts. However, each to its own.
Wisdom cant be taught, it has to be aquired.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest
QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 11 2006, 03:18 PM)
....Now explain to me why this is? Explain to me why offspring bred by natural service can be easier identified , provided no Ai horse is in such pedigree and their AI sibblings not. By this I mean not just the looks but also the conformation/structure. Were do all these bad faults come from, including inferior movement- short shoppy strides, etc?
Why does the EAO refuse to use AI? Why do the TB industry refuse it? These are highly experienced breeders.
*

Thanks, Hansi, but I still intend to hide behind my "Guest" status when I reply to you!! biggrin.gif

Why do you insist that someone else explain their reasons when you never explain yours? huh.gif JMHO, if you cannot find a reason as to why you see some of these so-called problems you are seeing, do you assume it must be a result of AI or Frozen Semen? huh.gif Now YOU explain to me why this is? And YOU explain to me why the EAO refuses to use AI and the TB industry as well. biggrin.gif I'm serious, I'm interested in knowing why, please explain. smile.gif
Suellen Taylor
Dear George...thank you very much..it is nice to be validated once in a while! smile.gif

Kenna..saw the boys did you? LOL..they are there for their "date with destiny".
Funny how you can expect something and get something quite different....oh well, that's breeding for you! rolleyes.gif


We all plan, study and work hard at this..and then ..oops! sad.gif

I have always contended it is a "crap shoot" at best....and every now and then... we DO get lucky.



TOP Of The Hill Arabians
HLM
dont ever be afraid of facing things in life, dear Guest.

I have given you my explanation, and that many times in the past over the forum. And I stand firm in my opinions!

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest
QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 11 2006, 03:18 PM)
Why does the EAO refuse to use AI? Why do the TB industry refuse it? These are highly experienced breeders.
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


The reason why the TB industry don't want to allow AI has nothing to do with any belief that the offspring might be inferior - it is a simply political issue. The racehorse "industry" (I hate to call it that, but that's how they describe themselves) live from the mares being brought to the stallion's stud, being covered there and staying there at full livery until their foals have been weaned.
If AI were to be allowed, people would keep their valuable broodmares at their home stud - resulting in huge losses for the stallion owners. The whole bloodstock system would be turned upside down, and the more influential breeders want to avoid this.

Are you implying that the breeders of German Warmbloods, Arabians, Quarter horses or any other breed which allow AI are overall less experienced than TB breeders?

Sorry, but I have seen many many AI foals up till now, and their offspring, and their grandchildren. There's nothing wrong with them - they have proven themselves on the racetrack, in the dressage arena, at showjumping, wherever. You say yourself that you want nothing to do with AI. Well, from what experience can you then say that it's so awful? Everyone to their own opinion - but your hatred of AI remains your own opinion. Unless you can provide any biological explanation of why AI should be worse than natural breeding. If you want, I could turn reasoning round to fit into your point of view: Freezing semen kills off the weaker sperm, only the stronger ones survive. A kind of "stress testing" pre utero, if you like. tongue.gif

We respect your opinion. But please remember that there are many, many other horse breeders in the world with as much experience as yourself or more - and many of them use AI. They can't all be wrong.
HLM
Well then dear unnamed guest, I suggest to you that you look up oldtimers-SEs- then compare with what you see now, and then conclude.

I happen to live in a state where more TBs are foaled than in Kentucky, with some original 1000 farms of repute. I talked to many of them, very experienced people and certainly not short of money either. All claimed that the TBs increased speed since day one by three percent and they are petrified to lose this.

Stud fee? Well our AI breeders dont divide same through servings sold, or? Neither would the TB breeders, if they were to adopt this unatural methods of breeding horses. If I am correct, I think the Qhorse industry does not allow it either, nor the standard bred industry. So nobody would cry foul, when it comes to paying stud fees I guess, or?

However, each to its own. Remember now, when you see a Serenity Bred horse, its bred by natural services. Use this as comparrison, if you like.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Liz Salmon
The reason I was told in the UK why Tbs breeders could not use A.I. was that they didn't want stallions to produce more foals than they could cover naturally or the prices at the yearling sales would go down due to overproduction. At that time they were also concerned about fraudulent practices. It took a long time for the UK to accept A.I. in Arabians. I always thought that Quarter horses used A.I. too.

I have to say that when judging I couldn't begin to tell you which horses were bred by A.I. and which weren't.
K2A
ok Hansi.


Sue Ellen,
We have our little guy down there too. What shows do you plan to go to next year?
Mahjiiq goes to Western Carolina's the first weekend in November. I love all these shows in a row. I think I'm addicted. Most people that we have met have been very nice. It's fun seeing the dicotomy (? SP) of all the different "groups". I'm sure we'll see you soon.
Kenna
Oh and BTW we also have a Dakharo Frozen. Don't know when we're going to use it.
Guest_Angie_*
Yes Hansi, I have seen many many horses in my life, AI ones and others. And have NEVER noticed a trend of AI horses being, on the whole, in any way inferior to others, or noticeable as being AI products. Seems that extremely experienced and knowledgeable judges like Ms. Salmon haven't either.

As I said before, the German warmbloods are the best worldwide in showjumping and dressage, a consistently successful breeding programme. Yet many of them nowadays are products of AI. Now how does that fit in with your theory? Am still interested in your explanation WHY AI would cause inferior horses. It sounds to me that this AI hate is a pet peeve of yours, to which you are absolutely entitled, of course. But if you want to convince people, a few biological reasons would come in handy. "Hansi says" is not enough to convince everyone...

Angie
(The bad "unnamed" Guest who clicked on "send" a tad too early last time tongue.gif )
Suellen Taylor
Hi again Kenna....and thanks about Chattooga. smile.gif

I will have to take a peek at your boy the next time I am there! We have made arrangements for another breeding with Dakharo frozen..would LOVE to repeat this filly! LOL

As for shows..still in the air..We are thinking of Nadeerah for Scottsdale, and we also have the Versace colt for Chris..any for him will be in Region 12 and qualifiers...

Am currently showing Wind Dahncer in Hunter..and VERY Versace in WP..

Hope to meet you soon..Jasper isn't that far! Best of luck to you!

TOP Of The Hill Arabians
Kathrin K.I.M.
QUOTE (An American Breeder @ Jan 7 2005, 03:04 PM)
I bred to a stallion I had never seen.  However, I talked to several who had seen this horse.  I checked what lines of mares had been bred to him.  I looked at photos of many of his foals.  I talked to the owner who has quite candid about how he produced with different lines.
*


I also bred to stallions I had never seen before in real, only on Pictures and of one I had a short video tape. All the foals I got were great! I breed mainly Polish- Russian and wanted to breed a pure polish mare to a well known american SE (I won't tell the name here to avoid further discussion) and travelled over there to see the horse myself and I have to say I was so disappointed... On the pics he was a really cute boy though he isn't young anymore but the horse I saw was without expression... his kids at stud were no good movers, they had very little front leg motion and made small steps. Well, I'm used to the flying polish motion and didn't want to use this stallion anymore because I didn't want to ruin the motion of my mare. The owner of the stallion called me several times later and asked if I wanted to breed my mare and I always refused and one day she asked me why exactly I refuse her stallion and she got really nasty when I said that his foals can't move the way I expected.

So: The foals of stallions I never met suited me much more than those I visited with days afford and hours of flight.
zenith
I've read all the posts and its good to hear some animated discussion

My 2 cents worth....

The reason the TB industry doesn't allow AI is to protect the income of the big players who control the boards. If any horse industry were to go the way of cattle, where there is widespread AI, based on sound scientific evaluation of genotype, phenotype, and their relationship, its the TB world.
As stated by another poster, the big studs are set up with massive infrastructure, where they can charge a mint for breedings (eg>100,000k per mating). They don't want to risk any change in the status quo, eg if another stallion owner of comparable capacity started charging 10,000k per mating.
Obviously, there are concerns with excessive concentration of the gene pool using AI: it comes down to good breeding selection, and possibly breed guidelines to prevent overconcentration of undesirable genes.

I can't see any possible reason why AI (per se) should result in inferior offspring, simply because the semen is divided. We've all heard of stallions who fall off and the mare seems to get little semen, yet still gets in foal: do you think they would be likely to be somehow deficient becuase there were only 100Million sperm instead of 10000Million Sperm?
Only a tiny proportion end up coming any where near the egg anyway. In AI, sperm are normally deposited very close to the egg (In sugical AI right next to the egg), and the numbers are still mindboggling.

Thats not to say that shipping or freezing don't potentially damage sperm, potentially resulting in deformity, but that should be able to be identified statistically. To my knowledge, this hasn't occurred.

Hansi's refrain that horses now aren't what they used to be seems so universal, that it can hardly be blamed on AI. Instead, its likely due to breeding selection (or lack thereof) or environmental conditions: including training, husbandry and climatic factors.

Years ago, many horses were worked out of necessity: on stations, for transport etc. The youngstock were often raised in open country, where they grew hale and hearty. The majority of high profile arabians seem to be creatures of comfort: more at home in the show ring than riding in the mountains. Many foals grow up in a small paddock and stable: never having a chance to build that all-important bone. Again, not AI's fault.

People have asked why use AI, and why use frozen semen.
AI allows you to use any stallion you desire who has semen available: you don't need to risk transporting your mare. The cost is often less when you consider the time and effort and expense in moving mares to the stallions stud. You reduce the risk of injury and disease transfer.

In Australia, even within the country distances are vast: I'm 2000km from the nearest "horse area" Brisbane, and 3000km from Sydney: I'd never consider subjecting a mare to that trip unnecessarily (although I'd buy a mare down south and transport her up in foal). With AI, theres no need to travel: my mare could stay in her paddock and the stallion in his. This is especially convenient wrt last seasons foal.

Because of our supposedly rolleyes.gif strict quarantine, importing horses is very expensive, and naturally, Aussies, like everyone else want to be using the worlds best horses. If some of the worlds to stallions are available as quarantined frozen semen, then that becomes much more acheivable.

Crucially, Australia wouldn't be having to deal with the massively costly EI outbreak if TBs allowed AI like the rest of the horse world. Shuttle stallions are carted around the world because AI is prohibited, sometimes carrying nasty germs that no-one wants.

Equine AI will likely never get to the routine level of cattle AI: Why?
Technically, timing AI in horses is more difficult and risky.
In cattle, a whole herd can be synchronised, an AI tech can come and inseminate 100s of cattle in one hit, and the pregnancy rate is very high. The risk of serious rectal tears and other complications is very low, so it doesn't require a vet.
In horses, the window of insemination is shorter, detecting the fertile period is harder, needs to be checked more often, is riskier, chemical synrchonrisation is less effective, and the resultant pregnancy rate is lower.

Also, people have herds of several, or dozens of horses, instead of hundreds or thousands of cattle. And guess what, they want a seperate stallion for each of their 3 mares quite often.
The efficiency of scale is just not there.

To me it becomes a puppy mill dependant on the breeding management, planning and intentions rather than the technology used.
The most efficient puppy mill for horses is a stallion with 30 mares in a paddock. Incidently a fairly natural and stress free environment for the horses. So theres no ideal solution. We need to be open minded and thoughtful in our decisions.
Robert 1
HELLO ZENITH,
YOUR POST IS NOT TWO CENTS WORTH IT IS A MILLION TO ME, I HAVE BEEN SAYING THE SAME THING FOR YEARS AND IT IS ABOUT TIME WE MOVE AWAY FROM THE OLD FASHION IDEAS NOT JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE ANTIQUATED BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY IT RESTRICTS AND LIMITS THE CHOICE OF STALLIONS FOR THE MARE BREEDER, ALONG WITH BEING FAR MORE DANGEROUS AND NOT TO MENTION MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE. biggrin.gif

GREAT POST. wink.gif

ROBERT,
ECHO HILL ARABIANS, USA
diane
Zenith, your post is very succinct and admirable. You’ve done well to advocate the pros and cons of the methodologies in use today. For all the values of unnatural procreation (AI using fresh, chilled or frozen semen) it also has its limitations eg selection to a specific number (those who’s semen works well with chemicals to ship it, along with other implications (financial, emotional etc). This has the potential to impact globally and ultimately can be both beneficial and detrimental. Similar can be said for natural procreation as it can offer the unrivalled bonus of maintaining the variation to the finite gene pool.

The use of unnatural procreation on a mass scale for equus is in its infancy. Nothing should be taken for granted.

I, for one, am not against unnatural procreation. However, I am against using hyped-up specimens which suits the adoration to a current fad as a result of pseudo competencies to the detriment of a finite gene pool.

Everything in moderation and it should be done to the benefit of the entire Breed. The Breed has a finite gene pool. If this gets knackered, there's no going back ~ no classic Arabian Horse from antiquity.
huh.gif

Robert 1
Hi diane,
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Mike
Hi, I am currently going through the process of having semen from one of my stallions frozen biggrin.gif My reason for doing so is primarily to allow ME to continue to breed from a horse who whilst not ancient, is certainly no longer young nor are his bloodlines readily available elsewhere tongue.gif To further add to the expense, one of my mares (also no longer young) that I wish to breed to this horse next season will be in another country so the semen has to be frozen for export sad.gif I don't expect that the foal resulting from this breeding will be any different from the mare I have from the same mating performed naturally, except that this one will be rather more expensive and will hopefully result in a colt. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif To summerise I will have and use frozen semen, for purely selfish rather than commercial reasons! laugh.gif laugh.gif

Mike
Robert 1
Hi Mike,
Good post, that is one of my points, it allows for you, a breeder to use your stallion far into the future, and since we don't have a crystal ball to see into the future but, perhaps others will come along and share your values in your stallion and you would be able to accomedate them by having FS stored from your stallion.

It is not always about the money as some will quickly assume. biggrin.gif laugh.gif

We have FS from years ago from a Straight Egyptian son of the imported stallion by the name of * ANSATA IBN HALIMA, this is almost as rare as Mr. Matt Bergen having FZ from his illustrious stallion RUMINAJA ALI, and another is
Mr. Joe Linzner having FS from a pure Pritzlaff stallion by the
name of KAZMEEN IBN SHIKO.
Sure it has a cost when it is for only your own use but, after all isn't everything but, perhaps by selling one or two breedings it would offset the cost, or think of what your foals will mean to your program further down the road by having access to your stallion from years ago. wink.gif

Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians, USA
Mike
Hi Robert,

That is the point I think, the general perception of FS is that it enables breeders to use heavily promoted and/or well known stallions in far away places biggrin.gif Whilst this is true to some extent, its real value is probably in helping to maintain genetic diversity biggrin.gif

To achieve success as a sire, a stallion needs three things:-

1) The ability to out produce himself
2) To be managed by someone who knows how to use him to his best potential
3) To be promoted effectively so that the arabian community knows that both he and his offspring exist and are aware of what he and they can do.

I am sure that we can all think of sires who either died before their full potential could be realised, or whose potential was only realised late in life, perhaps even after they had gone. dry.gif

Another slant on AI is this, seven years ago I lost my favourite mare without ever having bred from her ohmy.gif At the time (believe it or not) AI wasn't available and the mare couldn't be bred naturally due to an injury suffered as a two year old. Had AI been possible during the five or six years prior to her death, I would now be thinking about how to breed from her offspring, as it is I am still, seven years on looking for a replacement smile.gif

Breeding isn't meant to be easy or straightforward but AI can be used to remove time constraints and to help to keep ones options open laugh.gif

Mike
diane
QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Sep 28 2007, 01:36 AM)
It is not always about the money as some will quickly assume. biggrin.gif  laugh.gif
Robert,Echo Hill Arabians, USA
*

You are quite right, Robert, its not all about the money. Though to be realistic, any reproduction service is likely to incur a resounding fee(s). By necessity there are collections, test(s), freezing, facilitation to keep semen frozen etc, etc. All stages incur costs, which ever way its done rolleyes.gif Keeping a stallion for natural cover incurs husbandry costs blink.gif wink.gif skilled technicians and vets are worth their weight in gold biggrin.gif

Cost recovery and making a profit as a business venture... some will be fortuitous smile.gif In all sincerity, may your stallion's frozen semen be fortuitous for you.

Laugh as one might, money, for some / many, will be a necessary consideration despite any and all enthusiasm to utilise the techniques. It could be proffered that its somewhat supercilious to suggest otherwise.

Hope you are enjoying fabulous helicopter flights smile.gif

Mike - well done you smile.gif
Echo1
QUOTE (diane @ Sep 28 2007, 03:09 AM)
You are quite right, Robert, its not all about the money.  Though to be realistic, any reproduction service is likely to incur a resounding fee(s).  By necessity there are collections, test(s), freezing, facilitation to keep semen frozen etc, etc.  All stages incur costs, which ever way its done  rolleyes.gif  Keeping a stallion for natural cover incurs husbandry costs  blink.gif    wink.gif  skilled technicians and vets are worth their weight in gold biggrin.gif 

Cost recovery and making a profit as a business venture... some will be fortuitous  smile.gif  In all sincerity, may your stallion's frozen semen be fortuitous for you.

Laugh as one might, money, for some / many, will be a necessary consideration despite any and all enthusiasm to utilise the techniques.  It could be proffered that its somewhat supercilious to suggest otherwise.

Hope you are enjoying fabulous helicopter flights   smile.gif

Mike - well done you  smile.gif
*



Hi Diane,
How did you know my father Robert, is a helicopter pilot? biggrin.gif
But seriously, don't you think it is supercillious of you to pass judgement on others who may have gone ahead to get frozen semen on their stallion, or make a stallion available to others with shipped semen...... It would be incorrect to try to interrupt someones dreams for the future, or to suggest they are 'harming' the breed, with making frozen or shipped semen available to others. dry.gif All this 'flavor of the month, or terming horses as a 'fad' ' is also wrong and it is a rather sanctimonious for anyone who is advocating the finite shrinking gene pool. smile.gif Every horse is important as is every breeding important, as is every breeder and his/her contribution to the breed.
Robert 1
Hi diane,
Of course there is a cost as I mentioned and I am trying to understand but, the cost of shipping a mare to the stallion owner is not only costly but dangerous, the cost of board during the time the mare is at the stallion owners farm for breeding and then waiting for certain amount of days to be ultrasounded to be sure she is pregnant is costly, then hauling the mare home another cost, this for sure out weighs the cost of insemenating by frozen semen. wink.gif
Also the risk of injuries during live coverage is high, which in most cases needs to be bred more than once per heat cycle further, along with limiting the mare owner to only breeding to stallions that are close or within driving distance, now what kind of choice is this when each of us are searching for the best stallion with the best price, to produce the best foal biggrin.gif .
I would think you would be all about more choices and less expenses along with using stallions from around the world and even long after they may be gone and aren't available. biggrin.gif

This is a really nice time of the year for flying in the Poconos of Pennsylvania, USA where we live with all of the leaves now turning their bright colors as we approach autumn, and I hope all the dry weather has passed for you all and may you all enjoy your beautiful spring. wink.gif

Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
tiawarra
Having read all the posts on this topic, which I started, I just thought I would add my own personal thoughts here.

When I started this topic I was winding down my stud & had sold most of my mares. As I was wanting to keep a few of my favourites I started this thread in an attempt to find out what was available for the future. I did not start the thread to begin a debate on what is right or wrong about natural breeding versus AI. The topic was started so that I could source information.

To cut a long story short, the negative responses pretty much knocked for a six. I could not believe that people who dont even know me could decide that I was making a step in this direction for my own means. Who the hell could even consider this as a step towards making $$ is beyond my train of thought.

My idea was to be in a position to use stallions that I have admired for some time (IF they had frozen semen that could be used here in OZ) & maybe even locate available stallions that were worth considering. It was purely an exercise in forward thinking, forward planning. As breeders are we not all supposed to be looking ahead??? Even though at that time I was not looking to breed, I was hoping that at some time in the future I would be able to again.

The only way that I could consider a stallion such as Authentic Shamani would be via AI. Now before anyone starts......Yes I have seen this stallion in the flesh. I have been up close & been in a position to view him from all angles. But there are many many others that I have seen with my own eyes that I would only be able to access via AI.

As a serious breeder why should I be limited to using only stallions located here in OZ? In my mind if you are really serious about improving the horses that you own yourself is by using the best stallions that are available to you. If you are only breeding 1 or 2 mares a year then AI isnt such a huge drain.

Yes I know the costs invloved with using AI. But I have also sent mares out & spent a fortune on travel costs, agistment & vet fees, only to have my mare come home empty & sometimes injured. Either way there is a risk of losing your hard earned $$.

I am also looking into freezing some of my own stallions semen, as his lines are becoming quite old & I would still like to have access to him some time in the future.

If you knew me, you would realise that I have just bred my first foal in 4 years, so I can in no way be considered a puppy mill. I own my own stallion too & again, no puppy mill happening here.

So how can having access to frozen semen make me even remotely considered as a puppy mill breeder?

I think that each of us deserve respect from our fellow members, without us having to defend our ideals. Has anyone shot down any of the owners who have recently imported stock from overseas? More than probably these stallions will stand at public stud here in OZ, producing more than the 1 foal I might be lucky enought to bred via AI. But no one questions this.

Again this is all just my own two cents worth & no doubt I will be shot down again.....................Debbie
Robert 1
Debbie,
Why would you be shot down, just for being right. laugh.gif wink.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians, USA
ShannonC
This is just the subject I wish I had hindsight sad.gif We had to put down our stallion last month (he had cancer). I had sold his daugthers,son and grandget thinking I had plenty of time to get replacement from Prince.
How I had wish I had FS on Prince, he is the only stallion besides five other stallions I would breed to today. mad.gif He was my best freind.
In Memory
1987-2007
He came in my life at sunset prancing so softly we could hardly hear
him coming down the driveway. My father and I heard Prince Fayek
hollering his arrival. Prince made a young woman's dreams come true
thru out the years. I always ask him to give me his best and Prince
would always "turn it on" in the show ring. At home this great white
classic stallion was my best friend always protected of his herd and
his human family. The adults and children would ride him. We did
everything with Prince and him with us.

Prince taught me so much with our life together. He left me at
sunrise. We will ride together again in heaven one day.
Now Prince Fayek has bless me for all my mares all infoal to Prince the last month he was alive and I am keeping all of them biggrin.gif tongue.gif
Click to view attachment
Sorry I got off topic but, on FS I would use for personal reason on contintuing my breeding program, my dreams.
Shannon
Robert 1
Hi ShannonC,
Sometimes we just have to follow our hearts, or as they say gut feelings and just go for it, when it works we look awful brilliant and when it fails nobody really pays attention. biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Mike
QUOTE (tiawarra @ Sep 29 2007, 12:04 AM)
Having read all the posts on this topic, which I started, I just thought I would add my own personal thoughts here.

When I started this topic I was winding down my stud & had sold most of my mares. As I was wanting to keep a few of my favourites I started this thread in an attempt to find out what was available for the future. I did not start the thread to begin a debate on what is right or wrong about natural breeding versus AI. The topic was started so that I could source information.

To cut a long story short, the negative responses pretty much knocked for a six. I could not believe that people who dont even know me could decide that I was making a step in this direction for my own means. Who the hell could even consider this as a step towards making $$ is beyond my train of thought.

My idea was to be in a position to use stallions that I have admired for some time (IF they had frozen semen that could be used here in OZ) & maybe even locate available stallions that were worth considering. It was purely an exercise in forward thinking, forward planning. As breeders are we not all supposed to be looking ahead??? Even though at that time I was not looking to breed, I was hoping that at some time in the future I would be able to again.

The only way that I could consider a stallion such as Authentic Shamani would be via AI. Now before anyone starts......Yes I have seen this stallion in the flesh. I have been up close & been in a position to view him from all angles. But there are many many others that I have seen with my own eyes that I would only be able to access via AI.

As a serious breeder why should I be limited to using only stallions located here in OZ? In my mind if you are really serious about improving the horses that you own yourself is by using the best stallions that are available to you. If you are only breeding 1 or 2 mares a year then AI isnt such a huge drain.

Yes I know the costs invloved with using AI. But I have also sent mares out & spent a fortune on travel costs, agistment & vet fees, only to have my mare come home empty & sometimes injured.  Either way there is a risk of losing your hard earned $$.

I am also looking into freezing some of my own stallions semen, as his lines are becoming quite old & I would still like to have access to him some time in the future.

If you knew me, you would realise that I have just bred my first foal in 4 years, so I can in no way be considered a puppy mill. I own my own stallion too & again, no puppy mill happening here.

So how can having access to frozen semen make me even remotely considered as a puppy mill breeder?

I think that each of us deserve respect from our fellow members, without us having to defend our ideals. Has anyone shot down any of the owners who have recently imported stock from overseas? More than probably these stallions will stand at public stud here in OZ, producing more than the 1 foal I might be lucky enought to bred via AI. But no one questions this.

Again this is all just my own two cents worth & no doubt I will be shot down again.....................Debbie
*



Hi Debbie,

I feel strongly that all any breeder can do is use their own judgement and do what is right for them biggrin.gif Some will "go with the flow" as it were and use well known sire wherever he may be located (either by AI or natural breeding that is after all their choice), others will use sires that are available "locally" whether one defines "local" to be within ones own country, within reasonable travelling distance or on ones own farm tongue.gif Each no doubt with the intention of breeding the best foal they can, each having made by their own criteria the "right" decision. As Robert said, if you get it right and breed that world beater you are a hero (or heroine) if not nobody will really mind anyway biggrin.gif

For myself (as a breeder of little or no consequence smile.gif ) breeding maybe two foals a year and maybe none some years, having frozen semen from at least one of my stallions makes sense from a practical perspective (if not economically since realistically no-one will ever use it but me) smile.gif However since I am paying the livery, collection, vets fees etc etc anyway and would only be doing so once with this particular horse, I decided to go the whole hog and have the necessary tests etc done for Europe (which I needed for myself), the US and Australia after all what's a little more cash when one is breeding activity is expensive enough anyway ! laugh.gif laugh.gif

Mike
Robert 1
Hi Debbie and Mike,
For what ever personal reasons it is done, is your business and of course why not go just a bit further and have it done properly so that others around the world may have a chance at it...... if needed, we are all coming closer together with the age of the internet and WAHO. biggrin.gif wink.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians, USA
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