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Hoogie
as you say, Diane, education would be the key wink.gif
cooper
quote=diane,Jan 16 2005, 04:41 AM]
The gene pools are narrowing with focus on particular animals (in this instance stallions). This is happening in Arabian Horses due to the perceived focuses when the Breed as a whole can ill afford to have a narrow gene pool. If AI is used to help keep the already restricted gene pool variable, then to my mind, this is acceptable. If its used to focus on moderisms - where's the Breed going to end up??

Welll, ,mammals are mammals are mammals. We need an organized networking system to help us all preserve and diversify our breeding programs to the best of our combined ability. Maybe even something as simple as a web-site where breeders post what lines they are breeding so eveyone else can see it!
If not, if we as private breeders and even some "commercial" breeders (some who actually seem to be focusing more on money, rather than breeding a descent horse) continue down the narrow genetic path we have set for ourselves and our horses, we all are going to wind up in a very bad mess.
Anyone ever read anything on the study that was done on a closed mouse population. They bred them all together, not letting any new mice into the study. Many generations later, of course they wound up with mice who were very much alike genetically. As a whole they were sickly, many needed special care and any bacteria that could kill one mouse, could kill them all. I bet they were all real pretty though.
Pretty...that's what really seems to count with so many New Straight Egyptian breeders, isnt it? Forget the fact that that we are still breeding horses that are still 30% of any one given horse found 6 generations back.
Poor Nazeer, he is just one instance where a perfectly good horse is being made into a awful genetic mess.
Think of it like this. If you knew of a human who was linebred over and over to a particular ancestor over the last 70 years or so, how would you feel about that? Mammals are mammals. Genes are genes. The law of nature cannot be denied. With the good comes the bad. The bad...hummm. Seems the ancient egyptians werent the only civilization who believed in life after death.
Dont get me wrong, I love Straight Egyptian horses, but we have got to stop being so anal about our own little sects and start developing a way to get some vigor and genetic diversity back into our horses. I mean the term Straight Egyptian was only developed in the 1960's for petes sake! It's time we let up a little on some of the "titles" we have put on our horses. I personally would love to take a few blue star horses and incorporate them into my New Egyptian blood. But I dont think Blue Star horses are considered Straight Egyptian, their "Desert Bred". Tell me, what is the bloody friggin' difference? huh.gif
Al Shama
QUOTE (Charaway Arabians @ Jan 14 2005, 09:47 AM)
Hi All,

Alex, all of your points on breeding and choosing a stallion on confirmation /faults etc, are very valid. But I feel you are being very hard by 'blaming' frozen semen for passing on the faults (throught mare owners not viewing stallions).  This form of haphazard breeding is happening every foaling season, with normal service. I would have to say all the people that I know that have also used an overseas stallion, have actually done more homework, ask more opinions on the prospective stallions and been more critical on their mares faults. This is due to the high costs and risks involved.

Diane hit the nail on the head perfectly..... ALL breedings should be well thought out. I am not sure what state of Australia you live in Alex, but I invite you to view a wider varity of frozen semen foals. I have not seen 1 in my area with BAD faults - not saying this has happened. But I have seen lots of bad faults through matings planned just on show results, pretty heads or 'snot'.

Debbie - do not apoligise for this discussion. And I hope you find who you are looking for.


Cheers, Miranda
*



Hi All,

Miranda and Diane - very well said and I couldn't agree more.

Regards
Kirsty
Guest
Hi,

Just adding another stallion to the list. I recently sold our straight egyptian stallion to the USA. He has not bred in Australia and is about to start his breeding and show career in the USA. He has been shown a few times I believe already, once at the Egyptian Event where he got Top 10 in his class after only a few weeks in the country, the other I am not sure where he was shown, but got 7th and qualified for the Regionals. I have a few straws of frozen semen here in Australia, and I think his new owners will freeze him at some stage for Internationlal shipment.

He is by Anaza Bay Shahh and out of Halimas Tiara (El Hilal). Let me know if you are interested. As I only have a few breedings to him, I am not selling them openly, but have been asked by a few people if I would consider selling some of the breedings that I have retained, or will keep them updated if he is collected again in the USA.

Thanks

Menna Hornsby
Sorry forgot to sign in - Al Mearas Arabians
ellesmera@bigpond.com
Robert 1
Click to view attachment
Hi to all,
I am glad to see this topic re-opened it is a very interesting one to many breeders, I for one enjoy getting others perspectives about breeding by way of frozen semen, there is much good in this way, it allows big distances to be brought closer for matings, resulting in a big choice of stallions to a wider reange of breeders and locations, it is surely less dangerous to the stallions allowing for more valuable stallions to be offered to the public, sure it cost a bit more with the vet but, it also eliminates the cost and hazards of shipping a mare and or stallion owners getting the great stallion hurt in the process.
Please continue with any ideas it is very informing and is a process that is on most breeders minds.
Sure it may not be like cattle but, the old saying the more times you do it the better you become at it. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
USA
Guest_phanilah_*
QUOTE
FOR ME, here in the USA, can someone please outline all the steps, the rig-a-ma-roe that one must go through to get frozen semen here from overseas?????? Not to mention finding a vet that knows something about frozen !


I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread, so apologies in advance if this is repeat info. But, here is a start point for you re: frozen semen -
http://www.selectbreeders.com/services.cfm

Beth
Guest_phanilah_*
QUOTE
That is to preseve the blood for future generations and should only come into play when the stallion is dec.....Why would you want it before hand ? ...


While I agree one of the main benefits of frozen semen is being able to have access to semen after a stallion is no longer able to continue breeding (whether it be from death, age, injury, etc.) - frozen semen also allows for use of stallions from other countries, where breeding via cooled semen isn't an option.

Just because some people opt to use local stallions where semen shipping isn't necessary, that doesn't automatically mean that's the right situation for others. Everyone has their own idea of what is the right stallion for them, it's what makes individual breeding programs individual. smile.gif

Beth
Guest_phanilah_*
QUOTE
I just somehow feel that some people may think that to breed to" Frozen "semen is a fast track to a "great '' horses.....


JMO, but in my experience using frozen semen and in discussions with others re: the use of frozen semen - the above quote isn't anywhere close to being why people chose to use it. In reality, frozen semen is a hassle - most people only go to it when there aren't other options. So, if they feel strongly about the stallion (which can be for a variety of reasons) and it's either frozen or nothing, they will go with the frozen....not because there is something special about frozen semen, but because it just might be the only way they are going to get to breed to the stallion.

Beth
Guest_phanilah_*
QUOTE
but I do wish that you were to stop for a moment....to think about the foundation you lay today and who will be dealing with this in the future.... I really hope this will not become the new " fad " and I feel it just might allready be....


I'm not sure where you are located, but here in the US frozen semen makes up a tiny portion of the breeding done. In the US, only 13% of the 2004 registrations were bred by shipped semen, and the use of cooled/shipped semen far outweighs the use of frozen/shipped semen. And, for on farm use, AI with fresh semen FAR OUTWEIGHS the use of frozen semen.

The reality is that if a stallion has faults that breed on, they are going to breed on regardless of whether the breeding is done via natural cover or AI...the technology doesn't change that. The technology simply provides options for people - albeit the technology can certainly be misused.

Beth
Guest_phanilah_*
The issue of loss of genetic diversity often comes up during discussions re: AI (regardless of type). While on the extreme, it certainly could become a problem if a group of popular stallions skyrocketed to breeding hundreds upon hundreds of mares each per year using AI, whereas they were only breeding, say 40-60 mares each per year before AI. However, that hasn't been seen. There are only a handful of stallion in the US who have bred 100+ mares in a season and if any have hit the 200 mark, they are few and far between.

Just FYI for those interested - here are some numbers I pulled from the US Top Sires list from about a year and a half ago. just for an idea of how much influence, in terms of numbers, the all time leading sires in the US have had on the breed total registration numbers.

Numbers taken from the AHA Top US sires list (2/28/05) - although not completely current, IMO still telling.

The list contains a total of 242 sires who have sired a total of 86,952 foals (about 14% of total foals registered in the studbook).

Only 4 have sired 1,000+ foals for a total of 4,546
3 have sired 900-999 for a total of 2,858
5 have sired 800-899 for a total of 4,189
2 have sired 700-799 for a total of 1,497
13 have sired 600-699 for a total of 8,514
13 have sired 500-599 for a total of 6,868
24 have sired 400-499 for a total of 10,489
50 have sired 300-399 for a total of 17,050
128 have sired 200-299 for a total of 30,941

I don't know how many sires have sired 1-199 foals (and what the smaller group breakdowns are), but that group would account for ~527,900 foals (~85% of total registered).


Beth
tracek
Chilled semen has a higher conception rate than frozen but for international breedings has the disadvantage of flight time.

However chilled semen has travelled intercontinental and produced live foals. I can think of a few examples of stallions in North America siring foals with chilled semen in Europe and Australia.

If a breeder is willing to go through the rigamarole of getting their stallion cleared for quarantine, it may be worth asking if they are willing to do chilled as well for the higher conception rate.

Tracey
Guest
QUOTE (diane @ Jan 16 2005, 04:41 AM)
cool.gif uhmmm, this is a brazen statement : for as much "improvement" there's as many other problems being multiplied!  But then cattle are different - the are an edible commodity more so than the horse!  Using AI in cattle makes things happen quicker and potentially narrowing the gene pool depending on how selective the farmers are.  Particularly if they are breeding for selective attribute(s) ie meat, milk etc and not the whole?  A 'bonus' would be the ability to find a culprit depending on the extent the semen is used  ph34r.gif  Then what; what would the alternatives be?  The gene pools are narrowing with focus on particular animals (in this instance stallions).  This is happening in Arabian Horses due to the perceived focuses when the Breed as a whole can ill afford to have a narrow gene pool.  If AI is used to help keep the already restricted gene pool variable, then to my mind, this is acceptable.  If its used to focus on moderisms - where's the Breed going to end up??
*


As a breeder of Stud beef cattle Diane, I am sorry but you are talking through your hat. We are still using semen from bulls that died 20 years ago, we are also using semen from various other countries around the world.

Far from limiting our gene pool it has opened it up even further, Debbie is correct we have been doing it for many years and greatly improving our herds along the way. We would not have any of the European breeds available in our country today if it were not for frozen semen.

Having access to some of the best stallions in the world that otherwise would not be possible as a result of the use of frozen semen is opening the gene pool not limiting it...... huh.gif blink.gif
barbara.gregory
Interesting topic; I missed it last year, must have been too busy at work.

I hold my hand up as someone who has used a stallion sight unseen, not even a video shock, horror!

I sent a mare to Ansata Qasim last year, she went late as I wanted to see him first but never managed it. I then thought that if Judi Forbis had mated one of her best mares to Farres especially to get a colt to retain as a future sire and had kept him then he must be OK. I took my mare down and, having seen him, did the long journey the next weekend with two more mares. The original mare I sent got in foal but reabsorbed and I have two lovely foals from the other two mares. Qasim was due to go back to the States last autumn but due to the sale of most of the Ansata horses to the middle east he is still in UK and so my mare has returned to him, fingers crossed for a foal this time.

However, I also know of a stallion with a superb pedigree who looks gorgeous in his photos but I would never use him as he is not nice in the flesh and although I have only seen a couple of foals by him I was not too impressed with them either.

I would have no hesitation using frozen semen to a stallion I hadn't seen if I could "tick all the boxes" rather than send my mare to Europe with the stress of the journey and associated risks. Obviously I would rather see the stallion and if I could get a cheap flight would do so but if not I would go ahead anyway. As others have said, there is no guarantee you will get what you hope for even if you have the very best mare and use a fabulous stallion who compliments her perfectly; that is the beauty of breeding for those of us who have limited funds and can't afford £50,000 mares; my beautifully bred mares as just as likely to produce something special. I think using AI is preferable to using second best because he is local and available.

Barbara
gbfahne.gif
Robert 1
Hi Barbara,
I like your answer to use A I rather than to use second best because he is local or near by, I think a lot is to be learnded by looking at how others decide to breed.
Some small breeders that I see having great success with a very small program of perhaps only two or three mares, is the fact that they have them bred to quality stallions and it results in them having some great foals.
I feel Frozen Semen may be expensevie at the VET end but, the savings of shipping, and boarding and the stress on the owner and the mare seems to out wiegh the cost. wink.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
barbara.gregory
Hi Robert

I would rather not breed than use a stallion I did not think was of top quality and would suit my mare. I have been offered coverings to a stallion who I feel has nothing to offer and turned it down, the only thing going for him was he was SE and has a super pedigree. I would rather pay to use the stallion of my choice. I breed for myself and want the best foal possible.

The aim has to be for a world champion not "ust "a foal" and I realise that I am unlikely to get my world champion (would even settle for reserve) but while I use the best possible stallions the dream stays alive!

Barbara
gbfahne.gif
Robert 1
Hi Barbara,

Exactly, and dreams are important after all this is how it usally starts with horses a love affair is developed, not many people get into Arabian horses for the money in the begining. wink.gif
I feel the Frozen Semen is the way to go, it offers so many advantages, being able to breed to horses that you perhaps see in the flesh at a show but, is stabled hundreds of miles from you, not having to stress your mare out with traveling especially when she has a very young foal by her side, no dangers of highway traveling, no unannounced board bills for longer than expected, no injuries to your mare or stallion from the actual mating and or teasing, and most of all less expensive in the final total cost.
Oh sure, we all know the cheapest way and this to breed to your good friends stallion or like you said free offerings that don't interest you or your mare. wink.gif
If we keep trying to use Frozen Semen it will get simplier and less expensive as the vets gain more expierence and practice at doing it, and many vets now are really good at this already for that reason. biggrin.gif
Just some thoughts,
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Slvr Fox
QUOTE (tracek @ Jul 28 2006, 02:20 PM)
Chilled semen has a higher conception rate than frozen but for international breedings has the disadvantage of flight time.

However chilled semen has travelled intercontinental and produced live foals.  I can think of a few examples of stallions in North America siring foals with chilled semen in Europe and Australia. 

If a breeder is willing to go through the rigamarole of getting their stallion cleared for quarantine, it may be worth asking if they are willing to do chilled as well for the higher conception rate.
Tracey
*


Maybe someone on here can answer this question, especially regarding this post.

IF a stallion were to be shipped via cooled semen to a foreign country that would OTHERWISE require extended quarantine and specific testing for diseases to be "certified" for international shipping, does that also not apply to having the stallion collected and shppedwith fresh cooled semen under the same quarantine standards?


From what I understand when we checked international frozen semen requirements, the stallion HAS to stay there for the entire time, under quarantine, while all of this procedure happens. The stallion owner can't take him to a show or home and bring him back just for a "collection". We did not ask about FRESH Semen export, but the entering country determines what testing and quarantine is needed.

I am now reading the select breeders information as the answer might be on their site. It says to call for more details anbout quarantine and different country requirements. What they descrbe for costs applies to no quarantine/testing "use" of frozen semen.

Is anyone reading this list that HAS done international FRESH cooled semen shipping, so could shed some light on what their experience was?
KarenSh
(I am talking international stallions/studs/semen, local i cant see this problem happening)

I think frozen semen can be fantastic, i have an exceptional filly to prove it.
BUT i think there needs to be a few things changed in selling it to mare owners.
I had a large quantity of semen, 40 straws. 2 paid services (any more were bonuses and free) and in the contract it was stated i could buy more semen at a certain fee if needed. Stallions motility was above the requred 30 percent.

I sent my mare to the best equine breeding facility in Victoria, another state away.
It wasnt until her fourth insemination and 25 straws later that she fell pregnant.
As you can imagine the costs were high from the veterinary front.
anyway I decided to use my last straws on a sure fire mare, no pregnancy, a chance to use a straight mare came up so we tried the last 7 straws with no pregnancy.

ok, buy more semen you say?

Well, there was no more semen to be bought in Australia and no more ever arrived, even after i had other services sold to make it worthwhile, so I had to give up.

So basically unless you are provided with an unlimited amount of frozen semen the contracts are worthless. I would have preferred to buy 100 straws at cost and then pay the service fee on each pregnancy from those straws. Then any left over semen could then be resold back to the stallion owner to be sold to someone else. Stallion owner is not out of pocket either as freezing costs have been covered etc.

Unfortunately other breeders too were burnt after buying frozen semen, once again contracts were worthless and was too hard to chase up internationally after the semen arrived unuseable for whatever reason.

Mare owners have to be given more of a chance to get their mares in foal for the amount of money spent on services and stud fees, let alone vet fees, especially to the top stallions in the world.

Karen



QUOTE (Robert 1 @ Jul 29 2006, 07:38 PM)
Hi Barbara,

Exactly, and dreams are important after all this is how it usally starts with horses a love affair is developed, not many people get into Arabian horses for the money in the begining. wink.gif
I feel the Frozen Semen is the way to go, it offers so many advantages, being able to breed to horses that you perhaps see in the flesh at a show but, is stabled hundreds of  miles from you, not having to stress your mare out with traveling especially when she has a very young foal by her side, no dangers of highway traveling, no unannounced board bills for longer than expected, no injuries to your mare or stallion from the actual mating and or teasing, and most of all less expensive in the final total cost.
Oh sure, we all know the cheapest way and this to breed to your good friends stallion or like you said free offerings that don't interest you or your mare.  wink.gif
If we keep trying to use Frozen Semen it will get simplier and less expensive as the vets gain more expierence and practice at doing it, and many vets now are really good at this already for that reason. biggrin.gif
Just some thoughts,
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
*
Robert 1
Hi KarenSh,
Good news to hear you got your mare in foal via Frozen semen, sometimes the process of getting them in foal can be done the first time around if your vet is willing to scan your mare every three to four hours for ovulation so the semen can be placed directly after, timing seems to be very important. wink.gif
I agree when you go at if four times it gets very expensive but, many times in some areas this can be done at the mares farm and it saves a tremendous amount in shipping, board and safety of transportation.
I still feel the Frozen semen allows for unlimited choices of great stallions, and by going to a quality stallion rather than a low cost or free neigbors stallion it will improve all of our Arabian Horses, also it will slowly eliminate poor quality stallions an add them to the gelding list which seems to be far to low in the Arabians. biggrin.gif
I believe the more times Frozen Semen is used the better we all become at it and the less expensive it will be come like some suggested in the cattle industry. wink.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Echo1
There is always the option of buying stallions and colts or breeding horses the old fashioned way. wink.gif

I think what part of the problem is that these mobile collection units and some vet facilities are getting rich on horses that are not most suitable for frozen semen or mares that are not the best candidates for breeding. So then the vet suggests to 'try' AI. Obviously, we all try our best, but as SE breeders we need to remember we determine our own future with these horses.

I have a feeling you'll probably see less and less stallions shipping semen in the future. One of the main reasons, which has nothing really to do with this conversation, but many breeders are beginning to shop for colts again and avoid all the technicalites of AI and focus more on selling colts by great stallions instead of shipping semen.
Suellen Taylor
Hello all..I am hopping in here late...and have only read a few pages...however, I must say there are several posters I totally agree with.

Having the ONLY frozen semen foal..to date..of Dakharo, and a beautiful filly to boot..I can say I far and away prefer this route...It takes a little knowledge, and as Robert says, some timely AI's..but it works..and well!

I also have now validated Richteous' frozen semen, as I will have HIS first frozen semen foal in 2007 ..and with a post ov insemination of 8 straws only. (got lucky..LOL)

Now, saying all that sounds like I am patting myself on the back, and I am not trying to do that......what I am sayng, is that IF you want superior stallions for your mares, do NOT be afraid to go the frozen semen route..just read, learn, talk to other people, and study..with or without your vet (s)..

It is a workable situation, and far better than some out there! rolleyes.gif

TOP Of The Hill Arabians
HLM
Dear All

I am reading your posts and get a chill. I am advising our clients , friends, newcommers to the breed to never breed AI, to never buy an "AI" Arab, but go for the natural thing.To also never breed from an untested stallion, no matter how highly promoted or owned by noted people. IT WONT WORK!!!

Apparently the semen is divided into multiple servings. That means each offpsring is a "pupy mill horse" except "One" which would have naturally fertilized, if natural breeding took place, exception to a rule . If the entire collection is given to the mare at one time only, it is equal to natural breeding in my eyes.

If the stallions/mares are rigidly tested under saddle, to determine what they can bring forward genetically to produce an mentally and physically and functional horse, this then is the exception. (such testing was done from day one of the equine breed, internationally)

I like the idea to go out and buy a young colt, test him and if he comes through, breed from him. If his get also is excellent as a "Horse" than you know what you have. But you need to buy such colt from an experienced horseman/woman, someone who has ridden and tested horses all their lives. they know what they are talking about and will not fail you.

What I am seeing during the past years on detrimental faults is unreal. these tiny hoofs, mutton whithers, poor movement,conformation not allowing the horse to be functional for what it was intended for, etc.etc. and then breeding from it and produce more of such useless ornaments is not exactly what "Breeding" is all about.
Another problem is that people get so used looking at these kind of horses, they would not know what a real good horse is like. that scares me.!

If I am so wrong, why then cant we see the strongly promoted Arab stallions in stress performances, open shows, All-Arab shows (the SEs) and only concentrate on the EES, because they can not or will not do it anywhere-else.

To all those who indeed wish to breed a good horse, may be talk to the top endurance riders, the flat race trainers, the Tevis Cup Riders, etc.etc. and get their opinion. I was told that during the past years the Qhorses won and did well at the tevis Cup. Let us not forget that our younger generation will continue wanting a horse they can ride and compete with, and not a garden ornament to look at, because the owners feel is is georgeous.

We all can only say, it is the best, if it has defeated the rest, and I mean under saddle.

this is my humble opinion.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Suellen Taylor
Hansi..I certainly mean no disrespect, but I currently have two of MY boys in training..they are excelling in Open shows as well as the Class A's..earning points towards the Nationals, and their Sweepstakes year end.....one in Hunter and the other in WP...

If the entire collection is given to the mare at one time only, it is equal to natural breeding in my eyes.

I am NOT breeding blindly..and yes, all of a collection goes into my mares...LOL tongue.gif

My mares are extremely well-taken care of..clean, and NOT in ANY harm's way!

TOP Of The Hill Arabians
HLM
Dear Suellen

Thank you for your reply, yes I know. But you are one of the few who
do it right, having the knowledge.

You will read and see that many SEs cant even be given away, and I always hear from prospective buyers the problems they see with some of those horses.
But I also maintain that our smaller breeders, who never changed course, continue to breed good horses, horses one can ride and compete with well.

Remember our discussion at your stables at the EE and the wonderful smaller breeders having such nice horses? Now, if many would do as they do, we would have no problems marketing. And if the PS would lend a helping hand and promote the doing SEs, we be in tall cotton.

I know I am stepping on a few tootsies with my adament opinions, based on experience, but then that's okay with me, as long as it helps the survival of the good SEs, and recognition given to our smaller breeders who are defenseless against our big guns. But these big guns are losing the firing pin, people ae waking up and getting more educated.

Have a grand day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Suellen Taylor
Thank you Hansi...and yes, education is the KEY!

LOL..on the changing course(s)..I indeed did....and early on.... ph34r.gif

Talk about stepping on a few tootsies! LOL tongue.gif

Edited at 5:45 PM...I stand corrected...LOL..

I have just heard from another owner of a Dakharo frozen semen FILLY...just born the 2nd of September...Marsha....CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!! biggrin.gif

TOP Of The Hill Arabians
Robert 1
Hi Suellen,
You are congratulated in my eyes getting your mare in foal by way of Frozen Semen and your friend Marsha should be praised also for having a foal by Frozen Semen. wink.gif
To say not to try this method of breeding and only go for the good ole fashion way of live breedings of mares and stallions, is okay if the great stallion of your choice is next door and by that I mean close enough to take the mare to the stallion and breed and then take her home.
The problems with this is way of breeding are numerous.
Traveling on todays over crowded highways in not only expensive with the cost of fuel but, it is also extremly dangerous.
Leaving your pride and joy mare with another person to care for to be bred is not only risky to her being injured but, the board bill after several tries or even one and to wait to be ultrasound to be certain may be big enough to as they say,choke a horse. wink.gif
Then there is the other side, the stallion, many will not stand at stud and be open to the public if it only means live coverage, and the reason for this is not many stallion owners are going to risk injury to their prize stallion for a lot of work and a few thousand dollars. biggrin.gif
Then if your mare has a young foal by her side and this is often the case when breeding, this becomes another danger and obstical to overcome. wink.gif
Many farms and breeders are geeting very efficent at getting them in foal by Frozen Semen and the more we all try the better and less expensive it will become.
This brings us to the last option to support the live coverage of mare and stallion, to look for that fabulous colt, then try and buy it, then try and raise it and promote it and hope you made the right choice after spending many dollars, and remembering the words of that breeder from Mena, No one stallion is everything, so you may need to purchase more than one faboulous colt and do it all over again if you are trying to run a small breeding operation as most may be doing. biggrin.gif
I feel the more options one has the better. biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
HLM
good morning all

Robert, I agree with you, but dont you think too many people started breeding horses? I believe there were some 49,000 breeder/owners registered at one time with the AHRA.

Breeding a good horse is harder then building a good car, I think, although I havent done the latter. How many people build their own cars, eh?

Indeed a breeder needs more than one stud, and we usully had 12 or more standing, because not every stud matches every mare. This you can only tell when you see the offspring. One also needs to have more than one foal on the ground, better still about 6 or more to truly compare.+Now it beomes expensive.

Referring to the TB breeders, they put their yearlings under saddle (I know I dont like that either) have in most cases their own training track and evaluate and sent them out to the track.Every one is tested, evaluated and not all make it. We used to do this too, every 3 years old went under saddle and was tested on our track. those which showed speed etc were raced, others sold as pleasure horses or given away, some sold as stallion material, if they were exceptional. One year we had 27 colts and one filly born, imagine it. these were mostly Egyptian bred colts.

Glennloch also had many studs standing and many excellent producing mares.
So did al-Marah, Babson, etc.

However, each to its own, as long as a good horse is produced and tested.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Suellen Taylor
Good morning Robert...and the best to the family! tongue.gif

I could not agree with you more...and the very VERY best of luck with your new little one..bet he is growing like a weed...I will be looking hard in a year or two!
And I know you will be prepared for cooled as well as frozen deliveries!

Ask Kelly what she thinks with one of the 'three senoritas"..LOL rolleyes.gif

This in utero foal is my 3rd frozen semen foal, and I have already ordered some more Dakharo semen for next year to repeat this breeding. I also agree with Hansi that when there is a good mating, you need to repeat, and see more results...I will be doing my 3rd breeding to Simeon Sedek next year. Both of the produced fillies have been sold....and have also done 3 with an Internationally known domestic stallion. They are under saddle, or will be soon!

Take care..post a photo or two!

TOP Of The Hill Arabians
Al Sahrae Arabians
QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 7 2006, 03:36 PM)
Dear All

I am reading your posts and get a chill. I am advising our clients , friends, newcommers to the breed to never breed AI, to never buy an "AI" Arab, but go for the natural thing.To also never breed from an untested stallion, no matter how highly promoted or owned by noted people. IT WONT WORK!!!

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
*


Dear Hansi

I mean absolutely no disrespect with my comments, however I have to disagree with your comment above. I think it is quite impossible in some cases not to use AI, and I don't understand why it is an issue. Some people won't, or can't send their mares for long transport trips to the stallion and so chilled semen is the only way to go. Some owners won't allow their stallions to breed naturally for fear of injury (if they have perhaps suffered an injury in the past).

Australia has such a small gene pool with regards to SE's. We desperately need new blood and there are some stallions/colts coming over to hopefully add to the gene pool. However, many stallions brought into the country are not available at public stud. To purchase a horse and bring over to Australia is expensive. I for one can vouch for that. We currently have a mare and colt in quarantine and the quarantine and transport costs alone has added up to US$23,000. Let alone the price to purchase them in the first place.

We have agreed that we will be allowing our colt to stand at public stud as we feel that it is what the country needs.

I totally disagree with the comments made on this forum stating that the bad mixes and foals have come from the fact that stallions haven't been seen before semen is purchased. I know of many people who have bred horses "naturally" and the foals not turn out as they would have liked.

In Europe and America you have such a variety to choose from and horses and/or semen travel from Europe to America and vice versa all the time. This just doesn't happen here. To quarantine a stallion for semen to be sent to Australia is the longest time.

I for one will in the future be looking at importing frozen semen for my mares. I believe that I have chosen my mares very carefully and have been very selective based on personal preference. I will be equally as careful when choosing a stallion I would like frozen semen from. At the end of the day, I may get the most amazing foal, then again I may not. Some lines just don't necessarily breed well to other lines and unfortunately with our limited gene pools when lines haven't been tried and tested with overseas lines we are unsure of what we will get. But we need desperately need to improve the gene pool here.

At the end of the day though, it is all personal preference which stallions each individual chooses to use, and which mares they use them on, and some breedings work and some don't. The stallion I like may not be the one someone else like. This doesn't mean that we are bad breeders.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who has posted already, but I think that many outside of Australia/NZ don't realise how difficult it is for us here, or how small a gene pool we have to work with. I commend all those in Australia/NZ who are trying increase our gene pool.


Regards
Helen
Robert 1
Click to view attachment
HI HELEN,
I LOVE YOUR THINKING AND THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT AND WE NEED TO HAVE MORE BREEDERS LIKE YOURSELF THAT ARE WILLING TO GO OUT AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, LIKE IMPORT SOME FINE HORSES INTO
AUSTRALIA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD AND THEN BE WILLING TO STAND THEM AT PUBLIC SUTD OR OFFER THE SALE OF FOALS FOR ALL TO ENJOY AND BUILD ON FOR THEIR OWN BREEDING PROGRAMS. FROZEN SEMEN IS GOING TO MAKE AN IMPACT ON THE WAY ARABIAN HORSES ARE BRED AROUND THE WORLD. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
Liz Salmon
Hansi, are you trying to tell me that my daughter shouldn't have bought her now 4th level Dressage horse who was 2005 US National Champion 2nd Level and Reserve 3rd Level because he was bred by A.I. ? You've seen him. Is he an inferior horse ? You absolutely cannot prove that shipped semen produces poor horses, as there are too many very successful performance horses that were bred by A.I.

Australia and New Zealand desperately need access to frozen semen to extend their gene pools. The expense of shipping horses to those countries is out sight for so many breeders.
HLM
Dear Helen

I fully understand. I have studied and watched these AI hores for over 20 years and am petrified of it. What I noticed that suddenly detrimental faults pop up which are not in the pedigree of the horses or even the direct sires and dams. This refers to devided semen. Not only do I notice conformation faults, but also breeding problems, mental problems have popped up.

If indeed Australia has a shortcoming on stallions, do you think it might be a good idea to import about a dozen young colts, selected by experts without biast,bring them up , test them and have a nucleus of fresh blood?
Look how our original importers did it, Gleannloch imported many, Babson some,
Al-Mahrah did and does and grows their own too, so did we.and on and on.

When I was was young we had in Germany only a few breeding stations. For instance Hannover had over 100 stallions standing of all different breeds. Marbach and Babolna still do the same. Pompano, Pay, Tersk, Michalow and Janow also followed suit and the success is obvious. Even the Trakehner stud had 103 of various breeds.

Also I feel, just because the horse comes from a well selfpromoted farm and owners, does not give you a guarantee of producing consistently excellent stock. another problem is, that the average person is getting so used to poorly moving hoses, still saying they are super movers, when this is not so.
They have no comparrison to go by. On top of that some people for whatever reason try to discredit certain bloodlines, like for instance "Antar" who stands head and shoulders above many stallions I know.

I have just sold an absolutely super colt to Idaho together with six top, top broodmares, to insure a continous excellent breeding program and uniformity.
this colt "Serenity Mazal" (2004) is very tall, elegant and a bay and an incredible mover. He is out of the last Dalul daughter, an Antar Granddaughter and by our Serenity Mamlouk, who also carries the Antar blood, a proven sire, as she is a proven dam. He might turn out the SE to be reckoned with in the future.

I still maintain that breeding from fads, of a promotion which often is exagerated, does not always bring good results. I have seen it too often.
When I see an AI horse, knowing the semen has been split many times, I feel I no longer have a predictable pedigree, because the faults are not in it, so where do I look to outbreed them? Its not just the outside of a horse, the inside counts equally if not more.

Many of our smaller breeders do not have the funds to promote their horses or an excellent colt. But it is those one should go and see.
I have seen bad horses turned through conditinoing in to halter champions.
Take them into the pasture and 30 days later they no longer resemble that horse you saw winning. Take a good horse and do the same, and you will still
see the "good horse".

I used to say, if I were made up in Hollywood I might look like a glamor doll. Once I take that bath, all comes off, eh? this is why the expert cant be impressed with show conditioned horses only, they prefer going through the pasture and study the herd and than make a selection and when it comes to mature studs, they want to see them under saddle.

In my opinion Australia always bred super performance horses, like your Brombies, and earned the respect wordwide by experts. Your original imports of SEs from England were also top horses and bred on well.

And! How did the Bedus ever produced such tough Arabians without testing?
this means we should not stray too far from the original creation, use common sense and breed a hrose which is usefull for decades.

Take care and Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
HLM
Please Liz, try to follow my saying/thinking.

Of course not, because even when semen is split there is "that one Sperm" which would have been the one fertilizing the egg if bred naturally.

Another thing, if it is a gelding, you can not determe what he would have bred on, if he were a stud.

I often even have to smile, when I hear or read "This stallion has sillions of sperms under the micro, when it only takes "one" to fertilize.

And indeed there are exceptions to the rule. The horse IS NOT a multiple producer like a dog or other animals. I also feel that when we compete with nature or try to do better, we will fail. and havent we?

Just my opinion
Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
Al Sahrae Arabians
QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 9 2006, 06:07 PM)
Dear Helen

If indeed Australia has a shortcoming on stallions, do you think it might be a good idea to import about a dozen young colts, selected by experts without biast,bring them up , test them and have a nucleus of fresh blood?

Also I feel, just because the horse comes from a well selfpromoted farm and owners, does not give you a guarantee of producing consistently excellent stock. another problem is, that the average person is getting so used to poorly moving hoses, still saying they are super movers, when this is not so.
Take care† and Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
*


Hi Hansi

I am not going to harp on about this, but I can absolutely assure you that Australia is definitely very short on the gene pool. I am talking purely SE's. It is very hard to be selective and true to your breeding program here when there are so few stallions available to use.

Our breeding program is of course our personal preference and we are not breeding for fads. We have chosen all our mares carefully and have imported two mares and a colt because they have the blood I love and have some great new blood for here. However, breeding them here is very difficult. It is very difficult to find a stallion that we feel has to offer what we are looking for to add to our program and are actually at public stud. Don't get me wrong, there are some really beautiful stallions here, however many are similar related and of a similar gene pool . For our personal program we are trying to expand our gene pool. So far we have been lucky and are using a couple of stallions we feel compliment our program and lines.

Who do you suggest import these six colts?? Costing is not cheap, and besides all of that you suggest someone who isn't biast choose them. HOW?? Everyone has their own personal preference and of course this person will choose what they see as suitable. However, like anywhere there are differences of opinion. Australia may import six stallions who for our program and personal preference are not what we want so we don't use them.. Then what??? Does that mean our stud gets put down because we wouldn't use the stallions brought over.

Breeding is every studs personal preference. As is AI. I have a mare who is precious to us. She had a problem when she foaled and now we only do embryo transfers with her as we are not prepared to take the risk of loosing her. I would have thought that this was a sensible and compassionate thing to do.. She has alot to offer this country and felt that ET's were the way to go despite the added cost.

I think it is wrong to blame AI for problems, faults and mental issues in a horse. This can happen whether naturally bred or not. How many times have you seen breeders look at a foal and say that it is nothing like they expected!!! or where did that club foot, or week loin, or short fat neck come from... And you know what if you have a breeding failure don't repeat the mating and sell or give the foal away unregistered.

I think we need to accept that breeding is purely personal preference and leave it at that. If someone in Australia wishes to import semen, then I commend them. If people overseas offer to put their stallions into quarantine for longer so the semen can come to Australia then we thank you heaps.

Sorry if I have rambled, I feel very passionately about my horses and I think it is my right to choose the lines and styles and ways of breeding I want to.

Helen
Eagleridge Arabian Farm
QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 10 2006, 03:07 AM)
Dear Helen

I fully understand. I have studied and watched these AI hores for over 20 years and am petrified of it. What I noticed that suddenly detrimental faults pop up which are not in the pedigree of the horses or even the direct sires and dams. This refers to devided semen. Not only do I notice conformation faults, but also breeding problems, mental problems have popped up.

Take care  and Have a nice day
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
*


Hi Hansi

I am interested know what data you have collected that proves your theory, has their been a study done? it would be interesting to find out if this is fact or just a passing observation.

We have bred many foals by AI, both frozen and chilled, and some of our best results have come from this kind of mating. I have seen no evidence of the problems you have described. Have you tried AI yourself with your own horses?

Just passing observations would not be enough evidence for me to basically cut my nose to spite my face. Hansi if you had access to Sameh semen would you not use it????

Kind Regards
Jenni
Liz Salmon
Having an Agricultural degree and studied the effects of A.I. in cattle, which has been going on for over 50 years, do we now see cows giving inferior milk, or beef cattle producing tough or ultra fatty meat for example ? I don't think so. The quality of milk has remained the same, but because of A.I. cows have produced more milkóbelieve me there has been a great deal of research on that one. The quality of beef has vastly improved in those 50 years.

I cannot imagine that A.I. in horses would have produced any differently than breeding naturally from inferior stallions. Small breeders were tending to keep their own stallions to avoid stud fees, which I had often observed resulted in some very poor foals. Proper and careful stallion selection is vital to any breed, coupled with choosing the best mares possible. Shipped semen has given breeders the opportunity to breed to the best available around the world. Faults popping up sometimes that are not necessarily in pedigrees, can be due to circumstances in utero or nutritional effects.
Suellen Taylor
Proper and careful stallion selection is vital to any breed, coupled with choosing the best mares possible. Shipped semen has given breeders the opportunity to breed to the best available around the world. Faults popping up sometimes that are not necessarily in pedigrees, can be due to circumstances in utero or nutritional effects.

AMEN! tongue.gif
HLM
Dear Helen

We can talk all day about the subject. First of all which other breeds choses breeding stock for other than functioability? Australia imported many stallions on lease (TBs) from Ireland, top ones, and I have seen some before they left tom your country in Ireland.

the SEs chosen from the EAO and imported to the USA were quality, and very functional individuals. We brought two plane loads in, one with 24 the other with 34 head, belonging to numerous owners.And it was more expensive then, then it is now (airfreight etc).

I dont remember one having club feet, mutton whiters, tiny hoofs,etc.etc.
and all were excellent movers too. This continued in production until AI was used. Suddenly offspring no longer resembled their full sibblings bred naturally, etc.etc. and breeding and mental problems popped up to. Of course, such testing then was done under saddle, as far as stamina, courage, speed,staying power etc was concerned. So, were did these faults come from? It is not in the original genetic pedigree. surely, hundreds of horses with these problems cant be just fluks.

AI is used on cattle, swine,sheep etc, and we either eat what they produce, or eat them. Even in Cammels, they became eventually divided into milkers, woolers,for slaughter and racers. the latter the Arabs call "Asil" and they look different too, more classic, more refined, more exotic, their faces are dryer and more picant, at least those I have seen.

Is it not possible to get a group of your people together and share?
I would first look at the eAO, Albadeia and Hamdan Stables in Egypt, they
breed natural and have good stock. there could be others.
It costs money to start a sound breeding operation, then and now, but it costs this also with any other business. One says it usually takes five years before any business breaks even or shows a profit.

Donkeys and mules are also selectively bred, because they have to work all day long, at least by enlarge. These little donkeys carry huge loads and have to have sound structure to do it all. The horses used to do this also, but look what we got now. They breed from untested stallions, and at the end dont even know what a real good horse is like anymore.

the serenity horses still look as their imports some 40 yeas ago, all natural bred. We bred 13 mares this year, and all are infoal. We have about a 97percent production records during all these years too and dont produce
these faults mentioned. Look at our website, and you will see some. Many are endurance champions, and also halter champions. And the herd is uniform.

If the entire semen collection could be sent and given at one time only to a mare, I consider that equal to natural breeding. But divide it, and I call it a pupy mill, a hit and miss situation. No different to me than a dog having 12 puppies.

But as you said, each to its own to do what they please.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Jenni

"If I had access to Sameh's semen, would I Use it" Hell NO!!!!!
unless of course I get the entire collection.

We never used AI, I am afraid of it.I bought one mare infoal through AI. Result a beautiful filly turned into a georgeous mare. We bred her and when she foaled did not lose the placenta right away, and all sorts of inside problems were found. We ended up haing the uterus removed and today, 4 months and $ 15,000 vet bills later she is still not quite okay and needs daily attention. Anybody would have put her down, but knowing me, I try to save any life if at all possible. Once the mare is okay, she could make an excellent dressage or pleasure horse. As I said, she is a georgeous bay.

But I do know most of the original imports and many of the eAO/Albadeia/Hamdan horses and there were few problems that I know off at that time. Horses lived long too.
One of our stallion is almost 30, and the other 28, doing well. Our 20year olds look like ten. Each one worked hard and their legs are still glass clear and no other problems either. And they still breed.

Of couree, management has a lot to do with it as well.

So may be people should look at the production of our smaller breeders who bred by natural service, and if that SE looks like an arab and can fly,one should take another look.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
HLM
Dear Liz

I appreciate what you saying, but degree or no degree, it was also determined that a bee cant fly, but she does, based on her build.

What you refer to we can eat, so should be eat the horses too?

I have seen many excellent offspring with smaller breeders, and it is imposibble also for you to see them all, or for me. But you havent even seen our horses, although in the area, visiting a farm who is not that long in breeding horses, with limited knowledge in testing horses, etc.
But it was a board member of the PS.

I dont know if you visited the Houseknechts downhere, who always bred good horses and both David and Paula are excellent horseman/woman and ride and train well. And there are others.

Of course time is always short and one can do only so much, which I understand.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
Liz Salmon
Hansi, I'm sorry that I haven't been to visit you, but when we go to Florida, we fly to Tampa to see grandchildren and spend as much time with them as we can. Yes, I have been to David Houseknechts, about three years ago to specifically see a colt. I have 2 clients in Florida who pay for me to fly in and evaluate their horsesónon are PS board members. That simply does not come into anything that I do. I saw 2 horses of yours at the first Sport Horse Nationals, and I've seen Wilma's horses of your breeding here in Texas.

I see numerous horses every year from small breedersósome have great horses, others do not. Few small breeders keep their own stallions these days.
Eagleridge Arabian Farm
QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 11 2006, 04:54 AM)
Dear Jenni

"If I had access to Sameh's semen, would I Use it"  Hell NO!!!!!
unless of course I get the entire collection.

We never used AI, I am afraid of it.I bought one mare infoal through AI. Result a beautiful filly turned into a georgeous mare. We bred her and when she foaled did not lose the placenta right away, and all sorts of inside problems were found. We ended up haing the uterus removed and today, 4 months and $ 15,000 vet bills later she is still not quite okay and needs daily attention. Anybody would have put her down, but knowing me, I try to save any life if at all possible. Once the mare is okay, she could make an excellent dressage or pleasure horse. As I said, she is a georgeous bay.

But I do know most of the original imports and many of the eAO/Albadeia/Hamdan horses and there were few problems that I know off at that time. Horses lived long too.
One of our stallion is almost 30, and the other 28, doing well. Our 20year olds look like ten. Each one worked hard and their legs are still glass clear and no other problems either. And they still breed.

Of couree, management has a lot to do with it as well.

So may be people should look at the production of our smaller breeders who bred by natural service, and if that SE looks like an arab and can fly,one should take another look.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms biggrin.gif
*



Hi Hansi

Surely you have not become afraid of using frozen semen because one mare had problems beeding on, that could have occured even if she was not conceived by AI.

I have mares that have been conceived by frozen semen and they have daughters and sons that are also producing with no problems whatsoever, I do not believe there is any scientific facts to prove your theories, it really is a bit like worrying about old wives tails...........you really are missing out on so much opportunity.

To each their own I suppose smile.gif

Cheers
Jenni
Eagleridge Arabian Farm
QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Sep 10 2006, 10:11 PM)
Having an Agricultural degree and studied the effects of A.I. in cattle, which has been going on for over 50 years, do we now see cows giving inferior milk, or beef cattle producing tough or ultra fatty meat for example ? I don't think so. The quality of milk has remained the same, but because of A.I. cows have produced more milkóbelieve me there has been a great deal of research on that one. The quality of beef has vastly improved in those 50 years.

I cannot imagine that A.I. in horses would have produced any differently than breeding naturally from inferior stallions. Small breeders were tending to keep their own stallions to avoid stud fees, which I had often observed resulted in some very poor foals. Proper and careful stallion selection is vital to any breed, coupled with choosing the best mares possible. Shipped semen has given breeders the opportunity to breed to the best available around the world. Faults popping up sometimes that are not necessarily in pedigrees, can be due to circumstances in utero or nutritional effects.
*



Hi Liz

We have a ways to go to catch up to the cattle industry, they have been using embryo transfer and frozen semen with great success for many years. I hope one day the vets will have the sucess rates in horses at the same levels as it is with cattle, and as affordable.

I entirely agree with your post. smile.gif wink.gif

Cheers
Jenni
tiawarra
We never used AI, I am afraid of it.I bought one mare infoal through AI. Result a beautiful filly turned into a georgeous mare. We bred her and when she foaled did not lose the placenta right away, and all sorts of inside problems were found. We ended up haing the uterus removed and today, 4 months and $ 15,000 vet bills later she is still not quite okay and needs daily attention. Anybody would have put her down, but knowing me, I try to save any life if at all possible.


Hello Hansi,
I was the person who started this topic. Because of the negative response I received I eventually opted NOT to make anymore posts on this thread. At this time I have to step in & say something.

Off the top of my head I can think of at least one filly that has been produced from NATURAL breeding that was born with internal faults. This filly was born a hermaphrodite....ie: both male & female genitalia. As stated she was produced from natural breeding as were ALL the other horses in her pedigree.

I can also recall a colt born with a fault in has abdominal cavity. Again ALL the horses in his pedigree were of natural production.

I am afraid your concept of AI producing faults doesn't hold true in my opinion. As a nurse I know of the thousands of babies arrive each year with problems. Heart or liver or bowels that growing on the outside of their little bodies. A high % of these babies are from NATURAL breedings.

The reason why I started this topic, is because I have dedicated more than 30 years of my life to the Arabian Horse. I have very selectively bred the horses I own. I have always remained true to my ideal. But, I can honestly say there is NO way I could afford to send my mare overseas to be bred. That would be a financial suicide.

I also am indignant that someone should decide, that because I have chosen to consider using AI to breed my mares, that I am an undedicated, unknowledgeable, etc, etc breeder. I can assure you that I have always been a dedicated breeder, have many, many years experience & have always bred because I LOVE these animals.

I am a rider & come from a family of horsemen. I am also come from a farming background. I have been surround by the science of quality livestock production my entire life. In the past I have used my horses to work on very large properties, I have raced them, used them as show hacks, as trail riding & pleasure riding horses & most of all, as my companians.....my friends.

I'll now step back off my soap box & await the next barrage of anti AI.

Debbie Comini, Tiawarra Arabians, Australia
HLM
Dear Liz

I hope I did not offend you, because I did not mean to.
I fully understand, but I was referring when you were 45 minutes away from our farm at Henwoods. Had I known, Bill would have picked you up and given you our hospitality.

I also understand that people pay for your opinions, as it should be, you being a judge etc and having seen a lot and it is your profession.

But I am also referring to the Australian poster and still cant get over it that importers of stallions dont make them available publicly. Now had our importers here done this, can you imagine?

If the PS would be more reasonable and our smaller breeders could display their horses without mortgaging their souls first, then far more real good horses could be evaluated. All I see is people swarming around highly promoted stallions owners or Trainers of such and now are stuck. If we could see these
garden ornaments under saddle, even if it is only a display class without judging, a lot more can be accomplished.

I still find it very amazing that the SEs have changed so much, when this did not happen in the desert countries. We are now growing Shepherd dogs with rabbit hind legs sitting on the cannon bones, having hip displaesure in others,
and on and on and referring to the horses have not watched out either.

While it is my personal opinion about AI etc, it is honestly based on my
exeriences of breeding horses and the reason I bred them. At no time did I think, do or breed for a garden ornament, but for something the children of tomorrow can enjoy "on top of them". I watch the other breeds consistently, see how they market and what, and agree with their procedures. they breed horses, just as the Bedus did, and some of us original importers continue doing. And we, those imorters ,continue to educate the buyers, the newcommers, the laymans and STAND FIRM living up to the hard and well earned reputation..

Just look at the database and see what certain stallions produced, also in numbers. Its mindboggling and frightening. Often there is no rythm or rhyme either. then when I look at some 300 horses at the PS I often gasp for air.
This is UNREAL!. Then I wander around the stable areas and see SEs which are not shown at halter because the owners are not prepared to be shamed out of the gate, because they dont have that "In" type etc. At the same time I saw them having far superior SEs- HORSES!!!, not just dollheads which cant move. So forgive me please, but it is this knowledge which makes me speak out loud, keep warning and warning hoping some will listen.

If someone lives in Idaho or near Bois, go and see the nine SEs we just sent to them, "Two Mountain Ranch- Ray and Marcia Ellis in Nampa,Idaho"6 top mares, a weanling and two young colts. Now if any of you can tell us after that which mare is which, it would be great, because they are very uniform. too bad Liz you did not see them before they left or those we shipped to theUAE and those six we are going to ship to the UAE in October.

Now also look at this forum and how again some studs are promoted. Fortunately they are good horses, but are they also good under saddle? Can they compete in it, can we hear of their behavior, chickenhearts, tigers, stamina to boot, speed to be envious, kindness to the rider, stumble free or limping Luis.
you see, that is important to people who want to breed a good horse, a usefull horse. Just look at the lovely photo here on the forum. Parked out behind, neck set low, head between Pluto and Mars. Is this how you can judge a horse truly? I would have told the heandler"stand that horse up square and leave the head and neck alone".

I had a many times Tevis cup rider here, Ken Keele, who also bought from us two excellent broodmares. I let him ride four of horses for four days.
Each one is a top mover in my opinion and a kind horse. Yet each one is different under saddle. I pride myself saying to people coming here "Do you like to ride any of our stallions" to ascertain what they are like?
One he liked so much, Serenity Mujib an IbnKhofo son, so I sent him along for him to test in those mountenous areas around Sacramento, ca.

Now tell me, how many of our large breeders do that? Some wont even allow to have these stallions touched. Mine run free in a paddock and a child can handle or play with them.

then I hear that a stallion can get hurt when breeding naturally. Well, you can also slip on a banana skin and break your neck. When a Stallion is well trained he "Listens" and when one is experienced, seldom an accident will happen.

I also feel that this AI business was strictlyly invented to make lots of money fast. So it is violently defended. Again look at the database and see how many foals there are. Now count that in dollars and cents. And how many of them have done anything, other then continuing the bankroll.

If we want to preserve these SES, then we have to use common sense and honest tries, not just getting on badwaggons or kissing butt. We must present "tested" stallions to the public and honestly tell them what they are like and bring along genetically.

Another thing, I feel certain that you know where a good horse is. so do I, not all of them, but quite a few. May be this should be mentioend to prospective buyers and taken a good look at.

Again, just my humble opinion, no hard feelings and have a grand evening

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Liz Salmon
When I lived in Englandóall the breeding was done naturally. We still saw retained placentas, deformaties such as a foal born with no eyes, and no anus. A.I. helped breeders who lost foals and mares shipping them across the country. Mares so often will settle to a mating at home then being transported. I do not recommend small breeders keep stallions these days unless they are very experienced.
HLM
Dear Jenni

No, I did not go by that only, have too many complaints from others and their AI stock. Have been fortunate to compare natural bred offprings and their AI sibblings for over 20 years.

Missed out on something? I dont think so. Have you seen the Serenity Horses, including under saddle? Take a look at our website. soon I will update with the young stock.

As you might know, Bill and I are retiring. During this year we sold 22 head of our horses, all to selected buyers,here and abroad which I screaned to the bone first.
Only have two top broodmares left and five absolutely par excellent young fillies and a couple of young super colts. Again these will only be sold into the right hands, people who ride and promote a "doing horse". But they also would give some of the best a run for their money at halter, I feel.
But then that is my opinion based on my standards.

Again Jennie, it is my opinion and that after breeding horses for some 55 years, SES for almost 40 years and watching the international competition closely.

Take care and best regards
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Debbi

If that shoe does not fit, please dont wear it.

Of course foals, as people, are born with problems. But referring to conformation faults/deformities a high percentage out of a hundred, almost like an epedemic so to speak.? But I also know of mares which consistently produce problem foals as do some stallions.
And that is genetic and in each case AI horses.

I wish you would see what I do, hear what I hear, beause I think the USA has the largest amount of Arabians and a very high percentage of AI horses.

But if this is what you like, then do it. I am only giving my opinion, which I am sure is not everybody elses.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
HLM
Dear Liz

I agree with you, smaller breeders should send their mares to good stallions, and often such is sitting right next door so to speak.

Of course deformities happen under normal circumstances, I never had one I swear, sometimes on the feed, climate, enviroments, just like with people.
But we can study where it comes from, with AI you cant, you dont know where it comes from if the parents and down to the 5th generatio dont have it.
that's what I am saying and mean.

Have a nice evening
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Guest
Wouldn't it be great if the most magnificent stallion lived right next door and was available to breed to your mares? Wouldn't you consider yourself the most lucky person on the earth if you even were the owner of this stallion?

Unfortunately it doesn't always work this way. So we do our best, and AI is one of those things that allows us the next best option. smile.gif

Hansi,

I understand what you are saying in that with AI, that one perfect sperm out of the billions of sperm which is the next world beater inadvertantly gets skimmed from the top with a ladle, and thown in the waste basket because it doesn't fit into the little dixie cup container. Maybe that one perfect one which you are so worried about, just wasn't smart enough to swim to the bottom of the dixie cup to avoid being skimmed. But, I'll take the number two best one out of a billion any day of the week in comparison to zero. laugh.gif Now, c'mon Hansi, laugh a little, I'm joking with you.

Kelly
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