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Klimke
Is the stallion Fol Yasmeen straight egyptian?
He is a son of Hamdan(straight egyptian-i know)out of Muneera(Sid Abouhom x Mahasin)Mahasin is by Sheikh el Arab x Kasbana=Registan(Skowronek x Riz) x Rasala(Rustem x Serra)
i think he isn`t,but?... unsure.gif
Guest
Because of his Skowronek (Polish) bloodlines, Fol Yasmeen cannot be accepted into organizations like the Pyramid Society, etc. He is registered in the Egyptian stud book so technically can be called an Egyptian, but he is not considered straight Egyptian.

I think it was Mr. Trouncer, anyway the Scotsman who came to Crabbet looking to import Arabian horses for Egypt. Lady Wentworth disliked him right away. Hiding her best stallions, she brought out those whe wished to sell. After the deal was made, her ladyship triumphantly had Skowronek, Rasim, and the others brought out in front of Mr. Trouncer's disbelieving eyes. "Why didn't you show me these stallions? I would have bought them instead."

Can you imagine Skowronek going to Egypt? What would the Arabian horse of today be like if he had. (Skowronek was offered for sale to W.K. Kellogg, but he was advised against purchasing an old broken down horse)
HLM
Dear Klimke

No, Fol Yasmeen is not a straight egyptian. He has a georgeous pedigree, raced himself with eight wins to his credit.
He was in my quarantine in Canada in 1969, imported by Martin Loeber/Plumgrove Farms,USA and bred by the renowned breeder Ahmad Hamza, Hamdan stables, who as of todate breed excellent SE's too.

the stallion was outstanding, tall, powerful with a golden dispostion. He had par-excllent gaits. Of course, Martin knew a good horsee, when he saw one. Martin rode to the last day of his life and quickly recognized this stallions potentials, who was also very type.He made no mistake.
In the importation was also his daughter "Ramses Judi" out of the georgeous mare "Foze", again an excellent filly. Martin told me that she was named after "Judi" (Forbis") and Judi said to me, "I hope she lives up to my name jokenly". the filly did.
Fol Yasmeen is of the Saqlawi Jidran Strain.

Of course the Skowronek son Registan (Muhagir Es Sham) (1927) appeared to be no slouch either. His dam was Riz (1916) carrying the precious blood of Jerboa and Kars, a Sheykh Obeyd mare,
going into Rodania.All super athletic genes.

One day, we had to take temperatures of all imports every day with our Canadian Gov.veterinarians, we all were talking, while the thermometer was in his rearend. The door was left a bit open, so he pushed it more open and than walked off, with the thermometer still in him and my student hanging on, so both walked around and then back into the stall. The veterinarians were amazed. But this is the kind of dispostion Fol Yasmeen had. I really liked him, worked with him daily and enjoyed every moment of it.

some great horses came from egypt at that time.

Hansi biggrin.gif
ShannonC
My daugher's mare is 21 this year. Persiaa is a Double *Fol Yasmeen mare . She is in foal to my stallion for this year. They have been together for 17 years and still competing in the Special Olympics, in English, Western Pleasure, Trail.
Here is a pic of them last year. From what I understand her sire Ramses Pharoh was exported to Germany, in the early 80's.
Persiaa (Ramses Pharoah X Fainsha)
Ramses Pharoah ( *Ramses Fayek x *Ramses Judi)
Finisha ( *Fol Yasmeen X Khalaska)
Do ya'll have any pics of *Fol Yasmeen?
ShannonC
Been trying to get pics information of her sire for years now, still no luck. Does anyone know anything about Ramses Pharoah ( *Ramses Fayek X Ramses Judi)?

Shannon
diane
smile.gif
Nadj al Nur
Fol Yasmeen spent the last bit of his life in the ownership of Don and Sheila Burroughs, here in Prince George,BC.. If you have any old issues of AHW, there is an excellent article, written by Sheila in the Feb, 1980 issue including many pics of him, his ancestors and his offspring.He was an amazing horse.
Best
Cathy
peter
I absolutely agree with Hansi about her statements towards Fol Yasmeen. I have deep respect for the horses the late Mr Hamza bred. The mare *Bint Rahma imported by Mrs Hayek/CH comes from the same tailfemale Saklawi line. Furthermore it is interesting to know that Fol Yasmeen traces to the same tail female line as the imported mare *Bint Serra, one of the 5 imported horses of the Babson Farm and very elemental in the Babson programme.

I do wish, like Hansi, there were more horses of the same bloodlines like Fol Yasmeen and others of the "old days" like Fol Gamil. I really wander if there are still horses these days tracing to the same lines as Fol Yasmeen in tailfemale to carry on...The old Hamdan book shows lovely pictures of other Hamdan offspring like Bint Muneera, a most beautiful mare and full sister to Fol Yasmeen. I would have cared less for their Skowronek-blood knowing these horses are desert type from top to toe.

Good-luck on your quest for Fol Yasmeen info !

Cheers

Peter
TinaK
For those who don't know Fol Yasmeen

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
HLM
Dear tina

thanks for the photos, yes this is Fol Yasmeen

to all others, take a serious look at his movements. Take a stick from point of hock to the knee and it is a STRAIGHT LINE. this is what you want to see, the tremendous stifle/hock action, which I call "The horse is foalding up well behind". this is "power" from the rearend, most valuable I think.

I did not know he went to British Columbia, Canada.

And as Peter says in his way, a good horse is a good horse and this stallion was a very good horse. He raced 8times in Egypt successfully because he came to my quarantine in sound condition with glass clear clean legs too.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Nadj al Nur
Hi Hansi
Don and Sheila only had him for a few months before he died of a severe colic. They never did actually get him to their place, but they did breed several mares to him. One of his sons, Fol Zahraht, was R-17 champ and sired several very good horses, but unfortunately he also died fairly young.
Cathy
galdar
Dear Cathy,

You are wrong about *Fol Yasmeen dying of colic...he was in the hands of Peggy & Don White of Carrousel Arabians in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho when he died from a cancer that had effected a major blood vessel in his neck. Peggy loved that horse VERY much and she was alone at the time of his death. She was out in the garden when she heard something happening in the barn. She went to *Fol's stall and saw him cast and running with his legs moving on the side of the stall...he was already gone at that point and they had him buried up on their hillside. Peggy lost 30 pounds from losing him in that way. He had been fine and it came as quite a shock to them. We were good friends as they also stood the stallions, The Egyptian Prince and El Hadiyi. I knew *Fol very well and I never saw a more impressive stallion in my life to date...he really knew he was something special and never took a wrong step...I felt very fortunate to see *Fol Yasmeen and wanted to breed my mare to him. That never happened, but he had a good son who bred on well here in the northwest, Fol Legacy. I never understood why a perfect and regal stallion like *Fol Yasmeen and his legacy was not taken better advantage of just because Registran was in his bloodlines...you all missed out of a fantastic stallion and opportunity, but because of that we in the pacific northwest got the best of *Fol Yasmeen, a real KING!

Thanks for listening,
Jenny
Nadj al Nur
Sorry Jenny, you are right, it was Zahraht that died from the colic. Sorry for the confusion. I only saw Fol Yasmeen once, but he was unforgetable. Sheila had a painting done of him after his death, but in my opinion, it in no way did him justice.
Cathy
galdar
That's okay Cathy...I wish I could see the painting. Probably nobody could really capture the tru essience of *Fol. Thanks for all the pictures and all the nice things everyone said about him, I am sure it would please Peggy and Don, bless their souls. I don't think the White's were given enough credit for all the beautiful animals they bred, and I am sure many people didn't know that they stood The Egyptian Prince and El Hadiyi for many, many years either. They had the most beautiful, but small place tucked away against a hillside along Coeur d'Alene Lake. Very nice and kind folks..I miss them!

Jenny
Gari
"Because of his Skowronek (Polish) bloodlines, Fol Yasmeen cannot be accepted into organizations like the Pyramid Society, etc. He is registered in the Egyptian stud book so technically can be called an Egyptian, but he is not considered straight Egyptian.

I think it was Mr. Trouncer, anyway the Scotsman who came to Crabbet looking to import Arabian horses for Egypt. Lady Wentworth disliked him right away. Hiding her best stallions, she brought out those whe wished to sell. After the deal was made, her ladyship triumphantly had Skowronek, Rasim, and the others brought out in front of Mr. Trouncer's disbelieving eyes. "Why didn't you show me these stallions? I would have bought them instead."

Can you imagine Skowronek going to Egypt? What would the Arabian horse of today be like if he had. (Skowronek was offered for sale to W.K. Kellogg, but he was advised against purchasing an old broken down horse) "


The 'Guest' who wrote this lied and changed facts.
It was not Trouncer who visited Crabbet and whom Lady W disliked but Dr. Branch and the incident described is verbatim from the CRABBET ARABIAN STUD by Archer, Covey and Pearson, pg 167.

Dr. Branch, had he shown Lady W more courtesy would have gotten Nasik and at least the promise of a Skowronek son, but he certainly couldn't have afforded to purchase either whatever the case.

Dr. Kellogg offered to purchase Skowronek but Lady W would not sell under any circumstances.

This kind of lying that eminates from some in the Egyptian community who gutlessly sign themselves as 'guest' is why so many will not buy sE's.

Many Egyptian breeders in Egypt call Fol Yasmeen pure or straight for a simple reason...His parents were bred there for 5 generations in Egypt with only one line an outcross introduced 5 generations back, e.g., Skowronek.
HLM
Gari, who are these many Breeders in EGypt who call Fol Yasmeen pure or straight? He indeed is by WAHO definition a purebred arabian horse.
there hundreds of non SEs in the EAO studbook, as they register all
Arabian horses. But carrying Skowronek, he cant be a Straight SE.
Mind you, I have never been concerned with sire of the latter, its just his dam line.
Regardless, it did produce some super horses, dont I know, I competed against them for many years and some were tough to defeat.they were beautiful too.

He indeed was an excellent horse with a golden disposition. I should know, I worked with him over two months in my quarantine in Canada. Like to dispute that too?

Hansi blink.gif
Serenity Aabian Farms
Gari
I've had several Egyptian breeders-that is born and raised in Egypt-point out that the Pyramid Society is an American org and has nothing to do with 'real Egyptian breeders'...Dani El Barbary was one I recall. In fact, she was very worried about the trend to close the gene pool. They just look at 'straight and pure' as Egyptians , not American sE breeders who belong to the Pyramid Society.


Remember Gladys Brown Edwards noted that American bred, Straight American and Pure American could be used IF bred two-three generations here in the US? Polish breeders refer to "pure Polish" and ''straight Polish" just for being bred in Poland....And the Brits refer to Old English, GSB and Crabbet as well as British Bred, straight Spanish seems to be used with horses that have origins elsewhere but were bred in Spain for several generations (I am not entirely clear on their designations).

So basically 'straight Egyptian' here is "US Pyramid Society -bred" in various parts of the ME. And last time I looked-it may have changed in the last couple of years-there have been winners at the Egyptian Nationals that call their horses pure /straight Egyptians which in fact all carried lines to Skowronek via Registan.

As a matter of fact I remember hearing about an incident where someone from the US was slated to speak but instead invited to leave the EAO because the individual so upset local breeders because the person attempted to say that certain lines were less pure than others. I actually heard that the Police were called and the person was escorted out of the country! So to answer your question....there are those in Egypt that would say they have 'straight/pure Egyptians' that indeed carry Skowronek!
2mntn
Well now, isn't that a fine state of affairs? Even the real Egyptians are not adhering to the rules. laugh.gif Adding non-Asll lines and calling them pure. I guess that this is their perogative, them being Egyptian, and all. Don't know how all this fits in with WAHO now, not to mention the Asil Club. blink.gif

Ray
HLM
Gari
In all due respect, have you not as yet let out all that hot air?
I know Danni Babaray for almost 40 years and am her friend. she bred some fine horses and believed in the SE label, selling quite a few of these to this Continent, and one particular Se breeder in canada Mr Eric Lehman.

Can you please give us the name of that "deported" person you spoke off and who initiated the problem? I think I , Princess Lulua el Sabah and her husband as well as Nasra Mareii an Danni Babary would be delighted to read about it. I am truly amazed that you would make these statement in total inaccuracy and wonder what you like to prove with it.I feel certain that espcially Nas Mareii will chuckle now.

You are well known to me and others of spouting off, making statements you cant back up, and looking for trouble. and then you threaten with lawsuits and I truly wish you would go ahead with those, it would be a fun day in court. It appears to me that you always step where angels fear to tread.

So please refrain from any further statements you cant give exact data of and back it up.

Hansi rolleyes.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
Gari
"Gari
In all due respect, have you not as yet let out all that hot air?
I know Danni Babaray for almost 40 years and am her friend. she bred some fine horses and believed in the SE label, selling quite a few of these to this Continent, and one particular Se breeder in canada Mr Eric Lehman.

Can you please give us the name of that "deported" person you spoke off and who initiated the problem? I think I , Princess Lulua el Sabah and her husband as well as Nasra Mareii an Danni Babary would be delighted to read about it. I am truly amazed that you would make these statement in total inaccuracy and wonder what you like to prove with it.I feel certain that espcially Nas Mareii will chuckle now.

You are well known to me and others of spouting off, making statements you cant back up, and looking for trouble. and then you threaten with lawsuits and I truly wish you would go ahead with those, it would be a fun day in court. It appears to me that you always step where angels fear to tread.

So please refrain from any further statements you cant give exact data of and back it up.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms"

Hi Hansi,

Tell you what Hansi, as you did bring it up, I am happy to meet you anytime in court to prove the veracity of my statements. Apparently you can't. Lets supoena everyone you have named above...OK? Lets supoena your proof that Fol Yasmeen is not considered pure if not straight Egyptian by Egyptians? There is a difference my dear between the American invented Pyramid Society and those who have owned and bred Egyptians for generations in Egypt.

Oh and while we are at it, what is so upsetting to you about that story of a well known person being deported out of Egypt? Why should you be so unselttled about a 'story' overheard as clearly stated in the previous post? ...guilty conscious? Oh what fun to track down just who that person was in the local newspapers and police logs....especially as a cooperative effort with fellow law enforcement officers. Also heard that the person donated a substantial amount of money to the EAO to ensure they would get back into Egypt....Hopefully that money didn't show up on their income tax return as a 'horse business related expense' . But you know how rumors run rampant...Why would that worry you?

You certainly love to name call when you insist on insinutating yourself into an argument. I am not the one who brought up lawsuits, you did. Personally I don't want to pierce your corporate veil (which you so ill-advisedly sign your posts as "Hansi rolleyes.gif Serenity Arabian Farms") because your horses are personally not appealing nor is your property in Florida.. There is abundant proof here of your deliberate insults and prevarications. But that is all right. The problem with such a suit for me is that to date you have done me no harm...I still write for magazines 'round the world, have the cover story for this month's leading Arabian horse magazine, and have a publisher for my book if I can ever get it finished.

Dani al Barbary and I had our discussion at a late '80's WAHO meeting in the presence of several people. She may not remember me but I'll stand by the conversation, provide those witnesses as it was fascinating and a way of looking at what had occurred in the US vs. what was ongoing in Egypt. You often speak of paying attention to cultures...that night we did. As a matter of fact I might have done a write up of it for one of the magazines as at the time found it a fascinating discussion. If necessary can go through my archival material.

But while you are at it you might want to check out the most recent internet laws about defamation of character. You have defamed nearly anyone disagreeing with you even when, as Ms. Rogosky and Ms. Lang are so clearly establishing Exochorda's bonafides. Had you bothered to do what both Forbis and the aforementioned ladies have done, you might have avoided this latest mess and not denigrated such a lovely mare. (My suspicion is that at the time you were doing your research you didn't speak English or French well enough to check out the sources personally as they have done.) As it is you toss insults like confetti and if it can be proved anyone takes you seriously and you caused harm, a class action suit would make the most sense.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1160039129767
Jury Awards Woman $11.3M in Internet Defamation Suit

Excerpt:
"This is a new area of law," said Scheff's attorney, David H. Pollack of Miami. "The problem with the Internet is people can post anything about you and it can destroy you."


Excerpt:
"Scheff, who bills herself as an educational consultant, "tried to do something to help other parents and she wound up sort of being the object of hateful and vindictive statements," Pollack said."

Have a great day, Hansi!

Gari
blink.gif
HLM
Gari

Why are you repeating rumors? What you state ae rumors, not facts and I resent this ..
you threatened me with a lawsuit when I tried to please you with a gift of a 7 generation pedigree of your stallion at one time, beause you did not agree with the
contens or discription of the ancestors therein. you are angry with me because I show the heritage of horses in a pedigree as it is belayed in their registrations/studbooks/herbooks etc.
Therefore, your intelligence should not allow you to cruzify the messenger.
Most of all you should never listen to rumors.

I dont think you want to wash any further dirty linen over this forum but you may contact me privately under my e-mail address. Otherwise some well known people in egypt might get harmed. So please be most careful. May be you wish to contacgt Nas Mareii, who might be able to give you better information, or even Dani Barbari.

We have never met, and I respect what you have achieved by your own statements, although I was not present to it.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
2mntn
A response to this:

"...straight Spanish seems to be used with horses that have origins elsewhere but were bred in Spain for several generations (I am not entirely clear on their designations). "

The Spanish Arabian Horse Society definitions are:

Classical Spanish: Horses who trace their lineage 100% to horses who were in the SSB prior to 1970.

Spanish-related: Horses who have any line to a Classical Spanish horse.

More information can be found here: Spanish Arabian Horse Society

Ray
2mntn
Everyone,

I find it very troubling when folks feel the need to post lawsuit cases pertaining to the internet and especially so on this particular forum.

Surely we can rise above this and work together to keep this forum as a place where people can communicate without fear of legal reprisal?

Ray
Tessie
QUOTE (Gari @ Jul 17 2008, 12:13 AM)
Dr. Kellogg offered to purchase Skowronek but Lady W would not sell under any circumstances. 

*


W. K. Kellogg, the owner of the Kellogg Ranch was not a doctor (he had a son and a brother who were, but he was not). The Kellogg of the horse ranch is the same Kellogg who founded the cereal company.wink.gif Btw for those who want to read about the willingness of Lady Wentworth to part with Skowronek, I suggest you read one of Mary Jane Parkinson's books about the Kellogg Ranch. She included a great deal of correspondence between W. K. Kellogg and Lady Wentworth. Judge for yourselves what she was willing to do.wink.gif "The Kellogg Arabian Ranch: The First Sixty Years" or "The Romance of the Kellogg Ranch" (newer, revised edition)

Melissa
Gari
Hi Melissa,

Shortly before going to the UK the very first time, I read Mary Jane's book. It provided a HUGE number of issues/questions that seemed contradicted elsewhere. Mrs. Archer arranged an interview and an afternoon tea with the Coveys. In that interview with Crabbet's last owner in '84, Cecil Covey stated Lady Wentworth would never have sold Skowronek unless it was to be a genuine effort to ensure the continuation of her program. Apparently Schmidt had woven some very tall tales and Lady W was extremely interested to see if Kellogg was as sincere as Schmidt claimed. Also whether or not Kellogg was willing to invest substantial sums, which Schmidt also claimed and was covered in MJ's book. According to Covey, under no circumstances would she have let Skowronek go when she learned the truth. And certainly as you know from reading her books, she was offered fairly vast sums at the time for Skowronek and turned them down.

When and if you have the opportunity to go to the UK hopefully there will be one or two people left that can confirm the stories; and there is her correspondence with various breeders that people might be willing to share. But very clearly your views, because you never went to the UK have been a tad one sided. I've a complete set of her letters to one breeder, for example, with whom she corresponded from the '30's to the '53. Money was not of that much interest so much as maintaining the existence of the horses, carrying on her own and her mother's work. I think that was a litany with anyone who knew her personally.

As a result of the Kellogg correspondence her feelings for Schmidt were clear and Covey related how he and several of the Crabbet employees took pleasure in putting Schmidts trunk (Schmidt had apparently sent his luggage ahead of his second arrival at Crabbet) out on the road and were waiting to physically remove him from Crabbet were he to try to enter. According to Covey when Lady Wentworth was not around on that first visit he treated the Crabbet employees badly, ordering them about and threatening them with dire circumstances if they did not do as he demanded. If recalling correctly the final nail in that coffin was her son's trip to Kelloggs.

You would know much more about WK. as I assume he is your area of expertise. It was my understanding, from a TV program , the health center Kellogg initially created which was followed up by the cereal being made available to the public, that his employees referred to him as Dr. Kellogg as well as his son who was one.... Oh ho! just found this...I thought WK was the inventor of the cereal and it was his brother who was a physician apparently!

http://info.detnews.com/redesign/history/s...FTOKEN=63989712

Ray,

Your good friend brought it up. If she goes on to defame someone as she did in her post, what would you expect? Creating a war because a person is incapable of having a lively debate is sad. I've just received this list of transgressions of just one straight Egyptian breeder:

-The only person expelled from the Pyramid Society

-Booted out of Egypt

-Suspended from the Registry for a period for falsifying papers

-Only person taking out an add threatening to kill one's own horses because they weren't selling....(think this was pre-Pyramid Society wherein the value of the sE's was escalated on the promise of purity)

Now if I were that interested in the foibles of the people of SE.com I could go look up this nonsense to see if it were true.

What does interest me is the possibility of there actually being a horse of separate species that antidated the Bering Strait crossing. My gut says it is true and that it was in the deserts of Arabia/Fertile Crescent area.

Every geneticist with whom I've spoken has said that the straight Egyptian gene pool twenty years or so ago, ".... the sE's have as much relationship to the Desert horses as the obviously more broadley bred all American horses"! That in their opinions DNA tests show several things but the most important is that the maternal lines had many areas of origin and stallions seemed to see more small mutations-that this was equally true of other mammals. Clearly with the invention of the Pyramid Society, the gene pool is closed. Since the time of those interviews I've not worried so much about purity of a specific line (and strongly believe if a great horse came down the road a thousand or a hundred years ago, a great horseman would incorporate it into the bloodline. These horses of the Bedu had to be tremendously inbred over the thousands of years and it was survival of the fittest in the desert-we as breeders are the beneficiaries) so much as establishing once and for all the uniqueness of the Arabian...That it may have indeed originated in Arabia that is not just another 'breed'. Physically there is little doubt, is there?

Appreciate your citation. I've been very narrow in my research of the Spanish lines relying on friendship with Diego Mendez, the Maxwells as well as their books and the Polks. I'll be sure to go to the Spanish cite should I do a story on Straight Spanish horses. Clearly it is invaluable.
Tessie
QUOTE (Gari @ Jul 19 2008, 11:15 PM)
Hi Melissa,
book.  According to Covey, under no circumstances would she have let Skowronek go when she learned the truth.  And certainly as you know from reading her books,  she was offered fairly vast sums at the time for Skowronek and turned them down. 

*


Sorry but no. Lady Wentworth offered Skowronek to Mr. Kellogg, but he turned the deal down. The letter is still in the files. Lady Wentworth and Mr. Kellogg corresponded for a number of years btw.

Melissa
Tessie
QUOTE (Gari @ Jul 19 2008, 11:15 PM)
Hi Melissa,



When and if  you have the opportunity to go to the UK  hopefully there will be  one or two people left that can confirm the stories;  and there is her correspondence with various breeders that people might be willing to share.  But very clearly your views, because you never went to the UK have been a tad one sided.  I've a complete set of her letters to one breeder, for example,  with whom she corresponded from the '30's to the '53.  Money was not of that much interest so much as maintaining the existence of the horses, carrying on her own and her mother's work.  I think that was a litany with anyone who knew her personally.

*



You really have to start using better sources. I've been to England on multiple occasions over the years. All to see Arabian horses. The first time more than 30 years ago. Been all over the country. To various breeders. Bought lots of books from James Fleming (of Alexander Heriot) and spent plenty of time in the back room perusing books at the special invitation of Joseph A. Allen of J. A. Allen & Co (The Horseman's Bookshop). Even went to the Arab Horse Society Show when it was still at Ascot and had a rousing good time with Margaret Greeley! Loved the tour conducted by John and Pat Coward for the WAHO Conference in 1988. That was terrific fun. Got seasick on the Thames and lost on my way to the British Museum. Spent lovely time with Pesi and Elisabeth Gazder and talked pedigrees and art with Peter Upton. I think Newbuildings is charming, and it was really funny seeing where Lady Anne Lytton stored her Hoover! I do like to zip through the UK on my way to the Middle East. I ADORE clotted cream no matter what it is on!!!!! Tried my first at Windsor Castle. Went to plenty of other castles too. Eeek the one with the terrible oublette torture chamber (sure wouldn't want to be tossed in one of those scarey things).

Melissa
2mntn
Well Gari, what I don't understand then is Jaskolka. Are you saying she was pure, or are you saying that someone else is saying she was pure? Or are you saying that Skowronek blood is just being accepted and that horses coming out of the EAO will someday have this blood?

I am confused about what you mean. Especially when you say things like the "American" definition of SE. Is this definition not acceptable now - by EAO and/or private breeders in Egypt?

Ray
Gari
Hi Melissa,

Well, having gone over to the UK every year since '84, it is interesting that everything you have written here has nothing to do with scholarship nor with finding out the truth about Lady Wentworth. Moreover it is interesting to me that the AHS, GSB, Peter Upton, the Cowards from whom I purchased *Rushan and Mrs. Archer who is the only person with the materials and access to the Wentworth Bequest prior to its being made public, never saw you in relationship to what you have written about Crabbet and Lady Wentworth. You never interviewed Cecil from what they told me and I know Rosemary, Peter, and John were absolutely horrified and mystified by your claims and Peter Upton stated flatly it simply was wrong when I showed him your posts from several years ago when you were discussing the Russian studbook on SE and your translation.( I do remember one crack to the effect of, "Good lord she must have been corresponding with the Clarks and Anne Lytton!) My sources are excellent thank you: Three Presidents of the Arab Horse Society, three Governors and the Editor of the Arab Horse Society News, besides Cecil Covey and Colin Pearson were all my mentors. You apparently never accessed them but only those that were enemies of Lady W from what you have written. Moreover I love James Fleming who is now an author and last heard was no longer publishing but he never had the materials Rosemary has.

Moreover attending a WAHO Conference and being a tourist---the studs are most delightfully welcoming---has nothing to do with finding out the truth which apparently you avoided or were mis-directed.

In re Skowronek: Re-read my post. I never denied she offered Skowronek but per Covey she would never sell him. He claimed she wanted to know the level of Kellogg's sincerity. Her book and letters tend to confirm that. And indeed so does Mary Jane's, see page 95 wherein Anthony Milbanke, Lady W's son, wrote, "In regard to Skowronek, my mother writes that she thinks the risk is too great and sacrifice to the Crabbet Stud too considerable in favor of anyone whom she had never met ." In other words, no way was Skowronek going anywhere in as nice a way possible. Am surprised that you can't fathom that the Brits are skillful in politely saying, "no"!

Will be seeing Peter and Rosemary in August and am more than happy to once again show them your usual claims of knowledge of Crabbet. But quite frankly it is curious that you for whatever reason have opted to stay away from those who could have been most enlightening and indeed could claim a relationship with Lady Wentworth.

By the way did you attend the WAHO dinner at Belvoir on that trip? If so I find it odd we didn't meet as I was one of four acting hostesses, for the Duchess , who greeted all those entering the castle.

Hi Ray,

Jaskolka has been an issue but there is not one shred of concrete proof she wasn't pure and there is significant proof which is every bit if not more convincing that she was pure, than anything presented at the RAS/EAO about certain horses there. Am hoping to discuss this in my book and present that evidence. You have to remember the Polish Arabians evolved out of those captured from the Ottoman Empire invaders into Eastern Europe and have more in common with Davenports. Am not sure but it seems to me there is mtDNA evidence to that effect. But one thing...if nothing else the breeding reliability of certain bloodlines is simply unparalled...Skowronek's is one of the best. FYI did you know that the Skowronek sire line along with Kuhailan Haifi's along with Nazeer's (1/4 Crabbet minimally) and then Mirage in the distance...were the winningest halter sire lines at the US Nationals since inception? Only 4 out of a possible 46 or so that originally came to the US?

Darn, thought I made it very clear . Will try again. When the Pyramid Society was created it caught a number of Egyptian breeders, i.e., those who bred and raised Arabians in Egypt, by surprise. When my interviews took place in the '80's the impression I got was that they were offended by the definitions. Dani el Barbari was concerned about several breeding issues including the overuse of some lines and the loss of others especially keeping the studbooks closed to horses that breeders like Hamdan was using. If I recall correctly her best stallion carried Skowronek. Others were alarmed as the Inshass studbooks were said to be notoriously badly kept. These concerns would be normal to any thoughtful breeder.

The Pyramid Society was a new group, American- based and viewed with a great degree of skepticism-something that evaporated quickly when it was observed to be of great benefit to Egyptian breeders worldwide. At the time I interviewed various Egyptian breeders they felt they had 'straight Egyptians'; horses were sold worldwide that were said by the Egyptians to be straight-Egyptians, pure Egyptian bred Arabians BUT they didn't fit the new American group's definition ergo despite being sold as 'straight' or entirely bred in Egypt for several generations, Suddenly they didn't meet America made criteria. I think one example was Fakhr El Kheil purchased pre-Pyramid Society , both parents bred by the EAO and Maxwells and brought to the UK in the mid'70's before PS.s creation. ( proving the Arabian horses' purity is nearly irrelevant-very interesting as the Exochorda issues are fascinating- to me so much as determining the origins of the Arabian Horse which I think was in desert Arabia AND NOT from some horse ancestor crossing the Bering Strait. Recently there is evidence to suggest that the horses' origin is far broader than originally believed. Another trip to the British Museum is in order.)

One thing for an absolute fact-the more you study, the more you look to science, the more you learn=the less you know. Learning about horses in general and Arabians in particular is a never ending process.
2mntn
Hello Gari,

Thanks for your explanations - you touched on several topics. The PS came about in 1968 or 69 (I could be wrong) and Fakhr El Kheil was exported to Spain in 1978. Could very well be, though, that not very many people noticed the PS in the first 10 years or so.

Americans show much less restraint than the Brits in airing their dirty laundry in public, wouldn't you agree?

I like your statement re: the more you learn the less you know. You also said: "Learning about horses in general and Arabians in particular is a never ending process." I think I would add "and the people who love them" to your list.

I like this one: "Your view of the universe is a function of your perspective". Don't know who to quote on that one.

Thanks,
Ray
fol farrah
I own Fol Farrah his grandather ,she 32 this year. she has the best personaly ,I'm trying to find horse from sameblood line for trailriding. Her sire was Fol Legacy , would love to have a photo of him as well ,Please.
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