Feb 19 2005, 11:51 PM
Mention has been made of the Babson horses in many different threads covering many different topics. I would like to dedicate this topic to the original Babsons as well as the ones that are left today and also available to the public.
I would like to hear your opinions on their impact on the straight egyptian horse. What attributes do they contribute? How are they best bred (inbreeding, outcrosses that work, line breeding etc.)
I know that they are "doing horses" with exceptional dispositions but would love to hear first hand stories and anecdotes about the history of the The Babson Stud and or the various generations through the years.
Am lookinfg forward to the input.
Feb 20 2005, 01:26 AM
I always liked the Ansata Nile line (Ansata x Babson).
Feb 20 2005, 01:43 AM
Ansata did utilize the Babson stock. And in my opinion...rightly so. The Babsons seem to contribute positively to the more exotic lines. They kind of keep the ever so elusive balance of type, confirmation and disposition.
In fact, the Babsons in and of themselves are of the old Egyptian (closer to the source) type and combined with the New Egyptian (So tagged with the onset of Morafic, Ansata Ibn Halima etc.), one has pretty much the whole package.
Just my take on things.
Do you have any Babson in your own stock?
What do you like and dislike of the Babson group? Not meant to be controversial...just educational.
Feb 20 2005, 05:26 AM
Some of mine have Babson as one leg or less, but I like the addition. We have bred two high% Babson mares which turned out very nice.
Feb 20 2005, 06:30 AM
Feb 20 2005, 10:37 AM
I co-own one Babson/Sirecho/Halima young mare with Saskia Klaassen. She's Manara Samira out of Masada Massoud bred by Walter Schimanski and out of Matara Saafana bred by Vicki Butler. She is probably the only high % babson mare in Holland. In Belgium there are much more.
Although her half brother Manara El Sireff (sired by Megiddo el Adin) is a well proven endurance horse trained and ridden by Tracey Tromp, we already discovered that Samira's feet are not well enough positioned to become a true endurance horse. She was throroughly vet exmined for this so that we have a clear and veterinary diagnosis of her legs and feet right now.
She finished a short endurance ride succesfully but then dealt with some lameness issues during training. Although the Babson horses are known as riding horses with strong legs and feet, they are not always bred by people who care enough about well feet and legs so these health issues also occur with Babson horses, like with many other groups. It just happens, sometimes you're lucky and sometimes ayou aren't. In knwoledgable hands and well bred, you could easily breed top level sporthorses from them but in unskilled or careless hands you can easily breed lawn ornaments out of these lines, just like with other groups.
The best thing to me is their good disposition which is very obvious. I have hardly ever seen a sweeter horse than Samira. But also this characteristic can be ruined very quickly when bred to less quality horses, regarding the disposition.
Some of the Babson breds, like mine, are really small (1.43m/14.1hh) but some are very tall, up to 15.3hh. After having visit many many Babson based farms, I came to judge that the movement isn't always really good. An exceptional mover like Meranti Shahnan (Fay el Haadi x Masada Daalana) is really rare. Most stick with plain movement, nothing bad, nothing ordinary. They could use more freedom in movement, generally spoken. More spacious movement, more use of the hind end and lifting of the forehand.
The hoof (horn) quality tend to be good, also Samira has strong, solid hooves. When travelling at dirt roads, rocky soils etc she hardly feels anything, the soles are also quite good. This is a very important asset of a riding horse, the horn quality must be good as need the soles to be. Her hooves are also wide, broad, which is excellent.
The head of Samira is really beautiful, many Babson plus lines do not have a problem at all to produce excellent typey heads. Sam also has a really wide, strong body which I love, strong hind end, strong back, wide chest with lots of space for the lungs and heart, really terrific. A horse out of this line could use more length of neck, a better neck/should attachment and a better shoulder angle, with more slope into it.
The lines in babson breeding are very specific, all with their detailed plus and minor points. They need careful breeding and wise, knowledgable breeders, or they will turn into unridable, pretty, sweet horses just like happened and still happend with many other lines and groups. It's equally hard to breed a good Babson as it is to breed a good Spanish one.
Just my opinion. Pictures: www.nasheeta.com and www.wolffphotography.nl
Sam will be used in my horseriding project for kids from shelters. Our halfbred Arabians are already used for this project and I think Sam will excel in this, because her disposition is outstanding.
Feb 20 2005, 01:25 PM
When I first began to look at horses and visit some farms in 1996, I tried to visit as many farms as possible. I visited some on the east coast, and then the St Clair farm in wisconsin and then went to the Babson Farm. The Babson Farm was like nothing else I had seen before and created an indelible impression. The thing I really remember about the horses is their temperaments and their eyes. If the eyes are the window to the soul, all these horses had a real benevolent intelligence to their souls. After coming from the ST Clair farm where you could not get close to any of the mares in a pasture, the Babson mares would follow me around like a pack of puppies. It was really an incredible experience. It was this experience that really sold me on the SE horse and am glad to say that I now have a horse that has babson blood in him. He is a blend of Ibn Halima/Babson/ Sirecho and is the most gentle well behaved 3 yo colt on the planet.
Feb 20 2005, 01:30 PM
I agree with you completely, the babson mare we have is the only Arabian we have not demolishing our dogs and overwalking our todler. It's in the eyes indeed, Moniet el nefous should not have been the only one carrying this name!
Feb 20 2005, 03:22 PM
I have always loved Maar-ee and sweet, willing temperaments of my Maar-Ree tail female horses. In fact, I made a litte website for her and her wonderful Kuhaylan Jellabi straing at www.kuhaylanjellabi.com. I am more than willing to add information that anyone may want to share.
Feb 20 2005, 03:28 PM
For me, one of the most significant recent events was the closing and dispersal of the Babson Farm. Since 1932, this farm has continually bred, as a closed group, the bloodlines of the 5 horses that Henry Babson imported in 1932 from Egypt:
The full siblings:
*Bint Bint Sabbah
*Bint Bint Durra
In order for a horse to qualify as "straight Egyptian" and qualify as "straight Babson" the horse must trace to the 5 individuals listed above, in all of their lines.
The Babson program did incorporate newer Egyptian blood such as Ansata Abbas Pasha, which still qualifies as a "straight Egyptian" horse but it DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A STRAIGHT BABSON.
People often get confused about the term Babson, as Henry Babson imported horses from other countries:
*Kasztelanka (imported in foal to Ofir and produced the stallion *Warsaw in the USA)
From Canada (bred by the Prince of Wales)
From Saudi Arabia
From England (bred by H.V Musgrave Clark)
If you have a Babson bred horse that traces in it's bloodlines to the Polish horses, to *Aldebar, the the Saudi mare *Turfa, and from the GSB *Nimrod, you DO NOT have a "straight Egyptian" horse nor do you have a "straight Babson" horse.
I like to call Henry Babson a true pioneer, at least from the perspective of his breeding choices. It's obvious that the man loved Arabian Horses, of all bloodlines, as evidenced by his purchases. However, despite his appreciation for all Arabians after trying the bloodlines of other programs, he always switched back to breeding the bloodlines of the original 5 Egyptian horses. In today's climate, this may not be considered a most extraordinary thing but you really have to remember that Henry Babson's choices were made before there was a Pyramid Society, before there was an Al Khamsa, before there was any type of popular opinion that encouraged people to isolate breeding components and breed them selectively together.
As a late teen, I was blessed with the opportunity to meet Gail Hoff-Carmona and her late husband, Hector Carmona. Because I was lucky enough to live a half-hour away from Princeton Arabians and Los Alamos Dressage Center, I spent a lot of time there, taking lessons, getting to know the stallions: Serr Maariner, Pri Serr Sudan, Ansata Mourad Bey, Pri Gamil Halim, El Hamdani Bey and many, many others. I saw some of these as colts and got to see the transformation to a mature and lovely stallion. I got to know the mares like the Queen of Princeton Arabians Black Satin, Princeton Gamila, Pri Sufa Kuhaylah, Pri Rabda Kuhaylah and many, many others. Because Gail had a relationship with Albert Guilbault of Abitibi (he had at the time the very rare sources of *Bint Bint Durra blood in the USA), I also got to know some of the mares that he kept at Gail's farm. I remember the chestnut beauty Abitibi Fleur who now makes a home with Jennifer Parsons of Etaya.
I have seen and have gotten to know many Babson Arabians. I liked what Eric wrote about walking in the mare pastures and having the Babson mares come up to you. This is very true. I loved walking the broodmare field at Gail's and become surrounded with so many curious,kind, loving horses. At a time when the magazines and the show rings were populated by the EAO horses, I didn't really appreciate the wonderful temperament of the Babson bred horse. I took it for granted. If anyone were to ask me what is the best quality of the Babson Horse, I would not even hesitate for one second: they have the best disposition of all Egyptian horses, very much like the treasured disposition of the Spanish horses.
People often criticize the Babson horses for small size, pony-like features, crestier necks, meatier throatlatches, clubbed feet. Most of the Babson horses that I have met have been around 15 hands (150 cm?) which to me is where the breed height is set as standard. As for the "meatier throatlatch", I have seen this in some individuals, maybe more than some, so yes, I would be fair and honest and say that a shorter neck with a meatier throatlatch is something to watch out.
In certain lines, particularly the very closely in-bred Kuhaylan Jellabi lines (*Maaroufa), you need to watch the croups, as some individuals that I have met were a bit weak in this area.
I can't say that clubbed feet are a "Babson problem" as I see this fault across Arabians of all bloodlines, not just Babsons. I will say that you really have to watch some individual lines, as they will inhibit the freedom of the shoulder, which in turn can really destroy a brighter way of moving. Babsons have often been "marketed" as suitable dressage horses and I will say that because of their willingness, they will serve someone well in learning to ride the very basic movements but because of the shoulder, not every Babson horse is capable of deivering the quality of the movement that is scored highly in the more advanced levels.
I currently own a mare that is more than 75% Babson Egyptian, tracing in all of her lines except one to *Bint Bint Sabbah. While she has her weaknesses, the traits of disposition, which not only include a people-loving (and people curiosity), she is a very focused and very willing mare. Despite any limitation, once you develop a relationship with A Babson-bred horse, they will do ANYTHING for their owner. I find them to be consistently stable horses, dependable ina ny situation, including when they are frightened out of their skin. Their loyalty to their people is really amazing. As is their longevity, another Babson trait that I find to be common.
In the twilight of the Babson farm, when they were accepting bids for even the most famous individuals, a stallion that I had long admired Mah Deluque was sold. Fortunately for me, the horse was sold to someone who is no longer alive in NJ. To get to meet Mah Deluque, finally was a great treat as he was so different in his look than most of the Babson that I had met in the past. He looked like an Ansata horse and was stretchier, "willowy" as compared to the other Babson Dahman Shahwans that I had encountered. My regret? That in his later years, he was not used more, that he did not sire more foals and that I didn't rush my mare over to him. He kind of wnet into obscurity, more a result of his owner's sickness than his quality or even his siring ability.
I guess that leads me to my final paragraph and the phenomenon that I have witnessed over these last few years of a declining appreciation for the straight Babson Horse. Which really puzzles me as they are a rich source of Ibn Rabdan blood, which nicks so well with the rich sources of Mansour blood present in the newer Egyptian line of horses. If I can issue a word of caution regarding this breeding group is that people really need to go out and see these horses and then make their opinions and not grasp the misinformation that is often passed by people who may not have even met a Babson horse in their life. Most of the people in Europe have been limited in Babson blood, as this bloodline is more available (although the number of people breeding straight Babson are getting smaller and smaller) in the USA, than in Europe. Most Europeans are basing their preferences for Babson horses on a very small number of horses. I can tell you without a doubt that you have not seen the best of the best. Fortunately for the Americans, they still are in the USA, wiaitng for someone to discover them.
I am happy to see that there are people who are still interested in this bloodline and still ask about them.
Feb 20 2005, 03:29 PM
Hello. We own a El Halimaar daughter who is out of a MFA Mareekh Amir daughter. She is triple Ansata Ibn halima (double through El Hilal) and triple Maar Ree including tail female line. Thus, she is about 30% babson. She has the BEST disposition possible on an equine. I mean a truly sweet, kind, easy to deal with personality. She gets her shots and intranasal vaccine while loose in the paddock with no halter. She can go months without being ridden and you can just pop on her (without lungeing) and take her for a hack and she will not do anything stupid at all. I think this is due to her Babson breeding. She is extremely well balanced and has produced two champions out of two foals shown. One was a Region Reserve Champion in Sport Horse In-Hand (now competing in endurance). Her other foal was a Region TT Yearling and a Junior Champion Colt. She throws very balanced babies with correct conformation. Her best physical feature is her perfect hocks and strong gaskin. I think the Babson bloodlines contribute balance, temperament, and correct conformation. I feel the New Egyptian bloodlines added type, pretty head, high, straight tail carriage and refinement.
Most of the modern Babsons in the US are performance not halter oriented. I plan on breeding my mare's SE daughter (after her endurance career) to the Babson stallion, Ibn Sabbah Bedu +/. He is a multi-National winner in working hunter and dressage. Susar Farms also has had good luck with their Babson bred horses and I believe their herd sire has sired Regional winners in both dressage and sport horse in-hand. A lot of the Babsons are VERY successful in dressage like the Babson stallions Ibn Lothar and Mahroufs Hafid. The Babson horses are also crossing over into endurance quite successfully.
You should not expect a lot of type as a rule from straight Babson breeding. The good ones will have low set, big eyes but not much dish. They are not as refined or showy either. They have more of a performance croup. However, they do tend to be extremely athletic, balanced, and good movers. Of course, you can't beat the Babson disposition. When bred correctly you get the best of both worlds and great individuals. I think the Babson bloodlines are an important outcross for the future success of our straight Egyptian genepool.
Feb 20 2005, 03:51 PM
Hello Forum and fellow Babson Lovers.
I made a mistake in my previous post and am hoping to correct it, as I am not logged in on this computer. Henry Babson imported 5 mares and 1 stallion in 1932 and not 5 horses as I posted. The horses are again:
The full siblings (both by Ibn Rabdan and out of Mahroussa):
*Bint Bint Sabbah (Bayyad and Bint Sabbah)
*Bint Serra (Sotamm and out of Serra)
*Bint Bint Durra (Ibn Rabdan and out of Bint Durra)
*Bint Saada (Ibn Samhan x Saada)
Sorry about that.
And if I can add one more thing, which is kind of a neat trivia fact.
Henry Babson will always be remembered for the impact that he made on American Arabian Horse breeding and not just Egyptian. One of the Polish mares that he purchased (*Kasztelanka) was bred to the Egyptian horse, *Fadl. She produced a colt, who would mature into the show-stopping stallion: FADHEILAN, who in turn, sired the charismatic and influential: FADJUR.
Have a great day and sorry for any inconvenience.
Feb 20 2005, 04:43 PM
I had the pleasure of visiting Bint Al Bahr arabians and seing Ibn Sabbah Bedu, Abbas Ibn Lothar, Ahmed Fabo and Masada El Fasab. And of course a lot of mares.
I had read all those threads describing them as small, thick short necks etc....
I was really surprised by the diversity of phenotypes I saw.
Most of them had great necks with wonderful throatlatch, wonderful dispositions. Some were quite tall.
Most heads were not very dished at all but pleasant. They did move quite well and have proven what they can do in dressage.
The croups were not tabletop or long but efficient.
I do not know if I can post pictures but the Bint Al Bahr website is full of pictures.
Feb 20 2005, 05:10 PM
This is a very interesting thread. I am particularly interested in the Maarena line of the Babsons which produced Serr Marriner, AK Bint Maarena and AK El Zahra Moniet among others. The bloodline seems to have crossed well with Moniet El Nefous and Shaikh Al Badi lines from what I can see. Can anyone comment on the influence of this mare line, strengths and weaknesses etc.? Thanks.
Feb 20 2005, 05:30 PM
Thank you to Ralph and all others for posting such insightful and educational notes regarding the Babson or Babson influenced horses. This is so very interesting! I look forward to reading more.....
Feb 20 2005, 10:02 PM
Hello there Cindy, go click on the " Farms " section for there is a new web site featured " Saba" that has a lovely Babson related black mare "Fabo". She looks really nice and they also have some great stallions that should cross well with this mare. Just nice to see someone who likes these older lines.Hope this helps with more info .Goodluck on your search,Mitch
Feb 21 2005, 10:37 AM
thanz for the info Mitch.has anyone seen that beautiful horse Thaqib al Nasser in life.he looks real great and should have nice babies with the babson mare.
Feb 22 2005, 08:55 AM
has anyone seen that beautiful horse Thaqib al Nasser in life.he looks real great and should have nice babies with the babson mare.
Yes I've had the pleasure of seeing him twice, once unconditioned, and the last time in show condition... and both times he was not only beautiful, ethereal even, but also very correct in the conformation. There is no perfect horse... but Thaqib comes very very close.
Fabo is a lovely mare and I can't wait to see how she crosses with Thaqib... she is probably the highest percentage Babson Egyptian that I have seen, and although she doesn't have a really dishy head, it is very dry and refined - if she is typical of the Babson lines then I have to say I like them!
Feb 23 2005, 02:01 PM
Some of the Babsons, yes, are what is called today "plain-headed," but a horse like Ibn Sabbah Bedu+/ has a fine dry masculine beauty that is becoming all too rare in the Desert Arabian herd. At 14h3" he was often one of the smallest horses competing in open Dressage competitions, but that never stopped him from bringing home the medals and ribbons. In 1999, he was the only horse competing in both Jumping and Dressage classes at the Arabian Nationals where he went Top Ten in both Purebred Regular Working Hunter and Purebred and Half-Arab Dressage Level Three. Versatility is the Babsons' middle name. And anyone who has seen Ibn Sabbah Bedu's extreme floating trot and expressive canter will revise their thinking about "plain-gaited" Babson horses.
I also knew his dam Shar Sabbah (Negem x Bint Gammousa). She was the dam of eight colts and a filly. Sabbah had a high-stepping floating trot that appears in following generations. Four of her Straight Babson sons have become sires of some renonwn: Ibn Sabbah Bedu+/, Ibn Lothar, Char Mahrsab, and Bedu Sabir (that fast chestnut colt that Hansi Heck-Melnyk praises in the Institute thread is his first SBE son). Her only daughter Sabbahs Marjah (by SAR Fadl Halim) has been successfully bred to her son Inshalla Imhotep (by Raadin Inshalla) for foals that are vivacious, well-balanced, and exhibit the floating trot of their double granddam. These horses are examples of the Babson/*Ansata Ibn Halima outcross, retaining 25% *Ansata Ibn Halima blood.
I also have to mention the Ibn Lothar son out of *Bint Masarra (*Tuhotmos x *Masarra by *Tuhotmos) Ibn Rabdan USA, a dark bay stallion just beginning his career. He has the antique look of the best horses of the R.A.S. stud: sturdy, dry, perfectly balanced, powerful, with presence to burn. This return to antique type shows the benefit of blending Babson blood with more recent imports.
I am honored to own a Straight Egyptian son of Inshalla Imhotep (from his first foal crop) x Rose of Masada (whose dam was the SBE Rose of Egypt), 3/4 Babson with 12.5% *Ansata Ibn Halima and a bit of *Bint Maisa El Saghira and *Morafic. He stands 15h and has classic balanced looks with elegant movement, blending the old with a bit of the new. Now I am also graced with Imhotep's most recent foal, the 2004 gray colt out of Shebas Moriah LHF, blending the Babson influence with Pritzlaff and Doyle lines. This youngster has the athletic potential I would expect from the blend of these old proven bloodlines.
Someday, I may be fortunate enough to own a Straight Babson Egyptian. Until then, I am content to have ridden and known some, grateful to own animals with links to this heritage, and relieved that there are breeders who conserve these precious living repositories of the Babson legacy.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here