A discussion about altered photographs occured in the Grasso thread and someone asked to post one.
Well, here is an example. It is perfectly done in regard to the technique but from an
anatomic point of view this horses could hardly breathe IMO.
The neck and the drive of the frontlegs were altered, too.
This horse is not owned or bred and certainly not photographed by Nasr Marei.

Well, can't stop myself, but this horse/pic reminds me of Michael Jackson ...

Dr Daniel Wigger,

I just about fell off my chair laughing at that one - too funny!
Dennis, thank you for posting this photograph, this is something which really interests me.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the technique is perfect, as it is very obvious (to me anyway) that there is something very wrong with the front legs, especially the one closest to the camera.
As for the head, this has got to be one of the best retouching examples I have seen for going way over the top, it almost looks deformed.
Can anyone post any more examples?

Julia

Hi,
this horse is Shambala from breitenau-stud in austria.
Owner: Mr. Trummer
"getrummerte" Pictures
more of this one at www.breitenau.com

Funny, indead !

Do you have more of these pics ?
Isn't that the same guy that did a "makeup" to the TR Viktor fotos ?

I think it´s o.k. to change the background - but NOT the horse!

Yes here in Holland the pics of TR Viktor are well known and hardly to believe too....it must be the same...
Helene

good evening,
Yes Tr-viktor is identical to the photographs , I had the chance to see it in France, I have photographs but also a video it is splendid !!!
I do not believe that it is possible to modify a video!!
Best regards
Jane Mc Kenzy
Canada

are you crazy? You thing the Lord of the rings and The Matrix are real???!!!

There are some very clever people out there, I would always bear in mind that if it looks too good to be true then it probably is......

You are perfectly right.
It's not a big deal to modify a digital video.

And often the result is worse than the original.

I liked this picture so much that I sent it to a guy to change the background.

But for me the new background ruined the spirit of the picture and somehow made it artificial, maybe it was not well done?

really "fine" art...

I think TR Victor is the prime example of how you can fool people by retouching pictures. If you listen around, there are very many people who, having only seen pictures, think TR Victor is the epitome of Arabian perfection. I was very impressed with the pictures too, until I saw the real thing. In my opinion, TR Victor is absolutely nothing special, with a rather plain head, not much type or expression, and he can't even move very well (which is rather surprising for a Russian Arabian!). Has nobody ever wondered why he has no show wins whatsoever? If he was really such an awesome horse as the pictures suggest, then he should be at least world champion by now! But there seem to be enough people who actually choose their breeding stallions by pictures or videos, without ever having seen the horse in the flesh at all. How anybody can be stupid as to rely wholly on pics and vidoe footing, even though they know what is possible digitally nowadays (Uh, where did they borrow the dinosaurs for Jurassic park??), beats me.

Dear Al Mase,
you are so right. The first picture is ten times more beautiful than the black one.

hi
i have seen a video of TR Viktor and he did seem quite extreme in the head. living in australia i have not had the oportunity to see him in the flesh so can not comment on him really, but i have seen a filly by him in the flesh here in australia and she has a superb head very feminine with wonderfull eyes i have seen her mother and while she is a beautiful mare she is no way near as typie as the filly. so it would seem that he can pass on type.

Hans Trummer also owns Psynergy, a Padrons Psyche son who is in the UK at stud. He is advertised using a similarly extreme foal picture. Again, people send their mares on the basis of an image in a magazine advert.

and he had

KAIS

an that's what Mr. Trummer made him:

look at http://www.horsespirit.de/_/hp_horse/kais/index.htm

I don't think there are many people left who would actually believe one of his photo's could be totally natural.... he certainly has made a name for himself.
As I said in a different post, there was a photo in the May issue of the Arabian Link of a stallion who I have seen in the flesh twice and his head is more or less dead straight and quite long and plain.... in the magazine I looked twice at the photo because I thought he looked like a nice stallion, when i read the name though I realised who it was and I new that he didn't really look like that!

I must say, after having seen the "getrummerte" Kais picture, I really planned to breed a mare to him. He's a very nice stallion though but not so extreme as in that picture.

Maybe he can change his website slogan from "The ultimate Arabian" to the "The ultimate virtual Arabian"?

Kais in Wels 2000 - and certainly not modified!

but not straight sideways on, the prominent eye banking means you cannot judge the head properly from this angle

Thank you Kerstin for posting this photo. I know the great problem about retouched photos (as I posted here at least two times retouched ones... I didn't think about retouched or not... I just found them nice. NOW I pay a closer attention to the photos. And I don't "trust" like a "Blind person".)

I saw a headshot of Kais 1 taken by Erwin Escher and he had the same kind of head. Those altered photos don't make him justice as I think this is beautiful horse and now, people seems to think it is not his true type! Maybe he ain't exactly as the horse shown on "Mr trummer" photos but he all the same has a nice (quite exotic) head (I don't mention his body as it doesn't seem to appear that often in that world of retouched photographs)..
i saw a filly of Kais in a magazine here. She is very "hairy" and not brushed, trotting with buddies in a field. The photos were atken by the magazine's photographer who doesn't have anything to win retouching photos! and who obviously haven't retouched them! She has a really nice head "typey".

And you can't lie about all the get! TR Viktor sires beautiful foals! (I haven't seen every foals, but some he sired and who are owned by different breeders). he really seems to pass on correct bodies and very refined heads. that's all I can say as I haven't seen him in the flesh (not yet!).

I think it's time to make a general comment on retouched photographs with respect to manipulating certain body parts of a horse.

It is deceit!

Responsible breeders don't make breeding decisions from photos, okay, but in a more and more internationalized Arabian horse community with shipped semen and else this will become more and more frequent. Another important aspect is the fact that many breeders look back 3, 4 or even more generations to select certain traits not shown by the sire or dam itsself. In this case they frequently have to rely on the authenticity of photos because ancestors are already scattered over the whole world.

If the authenticity of photos is becoming more and more questionable it is eventually of great harm to the whole breed. IMO horses of which manipulated photographs are published repeatedly should be rigorously banned by the breeding organizations and the stud book should be closed for their progeny as long as the responible persons don't publish a correction with an authentic photo of a similar perspective.

A similar procedure - at least - would follow false documents/publications.

Well said Daniel this will become more of a problem maybe it is time the Arabian organizations stepped in after all they are all breed socities.
What you see you should get plain and simple.
Everybody wants their horse to be seen in a good light and altering poor back round etc
is one thing altering the horse is cheating plain and simple.
If you cheat at a show you are punished why not for photos
Enter the Dragon

I agree. In regard to Kais I find it very nasty to modify his profile as he has indeed an extreme dish and it isn't necessary to alter this profile to the status of a "seahorse". It looks rediculous.

>>>IMO horses of which manipulated photographs are published repeatedly should be rigorously banned by the breeding organizations and the stud book should be closed for their progeny as long as the responible persons don't publish a correction with an authentic photo of a similar perspective.<<<
Dr Daniel Wigger

It's a bit blurred in my head because, what you said is right (in my opinion). I mean for ethical reasons, I agree. The owner/photographer is to blame. It is just cheating about the "image" (for commercial reasons? maybe or for pride of the owner? not really better...). As it was said on a certain thread about "surgery" <_< , it is (as you said) harmful for all the breed. To stop this kind of problems what you thought of could be a solution.

But on the other hand, it would be unfair for the individual horse. the stallions discussed here (Kais, TR Viktor) can have a good contribution to the breed of russian horses. Further generations will tell us. OK the owner could be thrown from all breeding programs, but we could miss a good horse. When a stallion has proved he passed on qualities, when he sires foals with a regular quality, isn't it unfair to ban him? To close the tudbooks to his progeny would be a very rude answer to this problem!

Imagine (stupid example, please read and then forget! ): you see one day a stunning mare at a breeder's. You ask for his papers to purchase her (I know things don't happen like it, I mean, I know you don't decide buying a broodmare like that). then you realize she is all you are looking for but she is banned from studbooks (what can be a problem to register her future progeny..no? )... because his sire had been altered on photos! Maybe you wouldn't find it that "normal" in this case. No offense. One more time I told it was a kinda dilemna as I don't exactly know what to think. I try to find silly examples like this one to understand things, to think about it.

It is a widespread problem (due to internet and big magazines' features). I don't exactly know how I would react if I had to breed a mare. Maybe as the owner of a mare I would think differently. (I don't have this kind of problems with my gelding... which is from a breed where -or I believe so- stallions' photos don't use to be altered!). I think I would go and look around for other stallions "similar". In this case, I would try to find out an other russian stallion. There are some pretty good ones in Europe. But if the horse involved really has something special in my opinion, I think I would hesitate but maybe breed to him all the same.

Being no breeder, I haven't an objective opinion I think. But I try to make it clearer in my head for the future!

You don't need to manipulate photos to make your horse look near-perfect, a good photographer can work wonders. Even without any kind of manipulation, a good photographer can make a plain horse look like a world champion, or make a straight head look very dished by changing the angle, or hide wonky legs. The resulting pictures often look very different to the actual object.

So in my opinion anybody who is irresponsible chooses their breeding stock from photos, has no call to complain about such things later. Besides, there are things like character & temperament which are crucial for breeding, which you just can't see on a photograph.

Of course that's true.

hello,
here are some pictures of my mare Nesjla. Her father is Kais and these pictures are not retouched.
Greetings Josy

new try

and another one

now it is working good

I believe the general discussion isn't about Kais
- he was used as one of many examples for
modified photographs that changed the look of the horse.

Like many others I know Kais and he is for sure
a horse with an extreme profile and many of his
get inherit this trait.

The question still remains, why some people
try to betray themselves (and others) with this
kind of manipulation.

Hello,

I think using Kais as a "perfect example" of a modified photograph doesn't do justice to this realy, realy beautiful horse. I have seen Kais many times, in fact he was the first arabian (of showquality that means) I ever saw and I instantly fell in love with him and since that day I developped a serious case of the arabites. Now, four years later and after seeing many, many more arabians, I still think he's one of the best stallions around. You only need to take look at his showrecords to see that many judges share this belief.

No one ever doubt that. Fact is many photos of Kais and Trummer horses are altered and that's a pity - for the stallion, who doesn't need such things!

This one I belive, must be altered too !!?



And it does look AWFULL !

One more of her

One more of her



Kind Regards
Jani

Hmmm, there is retouching and there is retouching, but this particular example is taking things to the extreme. Not very attractive at all.


Julia

actually I have been told the picture above is the actual horse-here is a picture we took of a gelding we had-not altered even though we have been accused of altering it.

I remember this above mare...she belongs to Liz Curtis, right? In Mississippi believe?? Isn't she leased to David Boggs to be bred to Magnum Psyche?
I"m not passing any form of judgement on this particular horse, but on a conformation/structural/vet side wouldn't this kind of "extreme" create difficulty breathing? Bitting? Could it be a soft palete issue? Is the bottom lip over the top lip doing it for a structural reason? I've never seen a mare so extreme before. I'd love to see xrays to see how this works out.....

My conclusion of this whole retouching adventure is that publication and distribution of these pictures devalues the members of the Arabian breed that do have stunningly exotic heads. Either they falsely become less special, or their own unaltered photographs are considered fake.

As always, though, a photograph is only a representation, final judgement can only be made from seeing the whole horse in real life...

Right on Guest! I thought the same thing...in reading some of the most recent posts, it seems now that people are searching for photos of extreme headed horses as evidence of alteration. I am not sure why this is, if someone is not interested in the horse, either to breed from it or buy it, why even talk about it? Because if someone is seriously interested in the horse, wouldn't you go see it and not rely on a picture? Or have we been so conditioned for so long, that we now favor plain-headed horses? This is just another one of the mean threads that have been surfacing on this site, over the last few months. It is terrible. I used to come here daily for the information. The articles, the photos, the coverage of the shows make this the best site for Egyptian Arabian Horses but the forum, which was previously engaging, really needs work. Lately, it seems like the serious, focused, educational discussions we enjoyed about Egyptian Horses has been taking a back seat to everything else.

I find the "retouching" thread interesting. I am naive enough not to have realised that it happened quite a bit. I just assumed as I could make my horses look like mules so clever photographer could make their horses look a million dollars. I have a Van Lent photo of the old mare I lost a couple of years ago and it is truly breathtaking; she looked a million dollars. She was a beautiful mare but that photo was stunning, I will try and scan and post it later in the week. In fact, I will maybe post a photo of her that I took (if I can bear the shame) to show the diffence!

Regards

Barbara

Here is the same mare photographed by van Lent Jr and by me; which one would you travel to see if you were looking to buy a mare?

I just love the van Lents' photos and Giggi Grasso's. They make the horses look a milliom dollars and the backgrounds are always spot on, very clever. I have actually seen photos of friends horses they rved about and thought "Oh dear" but when I saw the actual horse it was way better than the photos.

Regards

Barbara

Not sure how to put two photos on the same mail so here is the photo I took.

Barbara

Barbara - the Van Lent photo is technically brilliant, of course, but the mare's face is just as beautiful in your own photo. I'd go to see her anytime!

Kais is a horse I have seen several times and photographed, and yes, he has an extreme head - so I fail to understand why anyone would manipulate it for a photo. He sure doesn't "need" it!

Re the photos of the mare posted by Jani P - I can't believe those photos were retouched, as I can't make myself believe anyone would be THAT stupid. The mare's head, as shown in those photos, is obviously deformed, and I for one can't see anything beautiful about it.

Betty

I guess you just can't judge a side profile from a diagonal-on angle.

Talking positive once about retouched photos, this is a very old and retouched picture where the horse has been cut out of its original and put on a beach. This one I have always liked.


(Gomel, picture by Jan Kan)