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HLM
Dear readers

Origionally there was no particular name for "Movement" at the Egyptian Event. Then it became "Arabian Trot" and now it is "Arabian Movement". What next?

A person walked up to me at the Event and said" Now I know why they call it Arabian movement, these horses cant move". I did not reply.

the Arabians compete in open shows, and their movement is judged by how any horse should move in a walk, trot and canter,gallopp. Many of the arabians compete in dressage classes- open- and also here they compete successfully. They do not differ in racing, as QH, TB's etc either. So why have we created a terminology which puts fuel on those, who do not like Arabians in the first place? A walk is a walk, a trot a trot, a canter a canter and a gallop a gallop.

With this invented terminology are we not drawing particular attention to it making a new person automatically think, this is different then on any other equine? Has anybody ever heard "TB movement, Qhorse movement, Pony movement, Warmblood movement??? I have not.
Or in open classes "Arabian extended trot" Arabian Walk" etc.etc. Sounds kind of silly, or?
A horse is a horse is a horse.

May be it should just be named "Movement" leaving that "Arabian" infront out. what do you all think??

How can we induce other breeds to top breed with an arabian, and they might think we have movement no other horse has??? May be they get scared??? Or are they going to call such offspring" Warmblood with arabian movement??? Sounds even sillier, or?

I really like to hear all your opinions and/or suggestions.
Personally I feel, something has to give.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Caryn
I feel there is definitely a distinct type of movement which is part of ARABIAN TYPE. It is the kind of movement which was developed to move quickly and efficiently over sand dunes, not the kind of movement needed to casually lope through valleys or to pull plows through fields, to provide a showy jaunt through the park, or to carry heavy pack over mountains. The movement of an Arabian should be directly related to the breed standard for Arabian conformation; it should be light and lofty in the front with significant fluid reach. The power and drive should come from the hind end...the horse should be pushing from the back not dragging from the front. While I agree that we can improve on the situation with legs, I came away with my biggest concerns relating to Arabian type/Arabian conformation/Arabian movement focused on the primarily angle and length of the shoulder. Mostly in the cases of youngsters, I was concerned to see a number of very straight, short shoulders and poor attachments of the neck to chest and to withers. If the shoulder is not long enough and well sloping, the horse cannot move freely forward with the front legs. Straight shoulders also often cause ewe necks, impeding proper collection and balance. In most cases, one can study the conformation of the horse and know before it takes a step, how well it is capable of moving according to proper "Arabian" breed standards. In my opinion, if the conformation comes very close to ideal breed standards, ideal breed movement is likely.

On a positive note, I felt there was considerable improvement in hip structure over entries from past years. By way of constructive criticism, I would love to see more attention shown to the shape and set of the neck, as opposed to so much focus on length, as well as improvement in the length and angle of the shoulder. I do think those who 'had it" showed it very nicely!
Caryn
Stephanie
Hi Hansi,

I agree with you. Movement is movement, no matter what breed the horse is.

I've met people who had visited many shows and only knew the Arabian through a silly class like "Arabian Movement". And I apoligise, but to me those classes are created by very ignorant people who call themselves horsepeople.

I've taken lots of people with me to visit shows to present them the versatile arabian. They were all astonished to see in which disciplines this breed can perform. Every time a so-called fan of another breed says something bad mad.gif about the Arab, I tell them to go and see Arab shows before speaking about things they don't know anything about.

Those silly classes at horseshows single out the Arabian horse as an animal which is only able to be beautiful and move a little. The organisers (of such shows) are a little at fault here too as they don't do anything to change this image. Lots should be done, little is done.

As I said before, I've seen many, I've ridden quite a few and I love ALL horses. But for me the Arabian is the most versatile horse around. That is my humble opinion and experience. There will be many other and different ones and I'm looking forward to reading these. biggrin.gif

Have a wonderfully warm evening, tongue.gif
Stephanie
HLM
Hi Stephany

I agree. In every breed are horses which move "airy"
but also some "clunky". It indeed depends on the conformation.
I always feel that the rearend is the most important one, which can excuse a lesser frontend. I have seen Arabians with decent hips but very poor gaskins. I have seen at the last Event Arabians which- yearlings/twoyear olds- had a chest as wide as a percheron, front legs flush against it sideways, and they could do only one thing "Paddle: I have never in my life seen such front ends. that "V" was totally absent. mmmm. I have also seen very flimpsy hocks, and that alone spells trouble with a big "T".

But also a lot has to do with proper exercise conditioning. Muscles have to be build up, provided of course such system exist in the first place on a horse.

We must also remember, that in the deserts, it is not only dunes, but more so rocks and lava, some rough terrain,
and some quite mountenous. There the sure footed Arab will excell, as many a soldier became appreciative of. And we also see those Arabs through the streets of Cairo, on raw asphalt, pulling humengous loads on those carts with horribly shoed feet. And when these trot, it's no different then any other horse trot. Then there are those who spent all day grinding grain, tied to a walker type
merry go round. There are others, who pull a Taxy type waggon, and also these show mainly a slow relaxed trot.
Mostly in "Movies" we see those arabs dashing through deep sand. For instance in the Emirates I saw grounds which were more or less like lightly graveled roads, had a lot of small stones in it and were quite solid.

But it is romantic, seeing those Arabs sprinting through the desert sands, I guess. It would make any layman drewl.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Caryn
QUOTE (Stephanie @ Jun 12 2003, 06:04 PM)
I've met people who had visited many shows and only knew the Arabian through a silly class like "Arabian Movement".  And I apoligise, but to me those classes are created by very ignorant people who call themselves horsepeople.

I'm not aware of classes at Arabian horse shows called (or devoted specifically to) "Arabian Movement". To the best of my knowledge, this is only one category of judging Halter classes within the American and Modified European systems. I would like to add that part of judging Arabian movement involves the manner in which the tail is carried. It should be held high and straight and arched away from the body. This too, is part of distinctive Arabian type as per breed standards.
Caryn
Journey
Caryn,

You said the following, "I feel there is definitely a distinct type of movement which is part of ARABIAN TYPE. It is the kind of movement which was developed to move quickly and efficiently over sand dunes, not the kind of movement needed to casually lope through valleys or to pull plows through fields, to provide a showy jaunt through the park, or to carry heavy pack over mountains. The movement of an Arabian should be directly related to the breed standard for Arabian conformation; it should be light and lofty in the front with significant fluid reach. The power and drive should come from the hind end...the horse should be pushing from the back not dragging from the front."

All I have to say is, YOU ARE RIGHT!! I agree with this statement 100%. Arabs do move differently because they are the ones who do go over sand dunes. You would have to move differently than other breeds, but that is not a bad thing. I love their movement!

Where I live they have an area you can go riding in. It is full of sand. I have taken my arabs out there and my morgan. I can tell you that the arabs move through it so effortless while the morgan is pounding through it. The morgan will be in a sweat while the arab doesn't even break a sweat. I love all my horses, but the arab is definately the one built to move through sand! they just glide across it.
Lysette
I suppose I have always appreciated the reference to "Arabian" movement as meaning that the height of the movement of the front legs will not be the standard by which movement is judged. I believe many Americans have heard the term "trot like Saddlebreds" used in reference to Arabians--often as a negative thing. (I have nothing against Saddlebreds and think they are beautiful horses, but I do not want my Arabians to look or move like them.) "Arabian" movement makes me think of gaits that are smooth, with good suspension, and would provide for a comfortable ride over long distances. It seems to me the idea of effeciency played into the development of the Arabian and a horse that could easily travel with little wasted motion would hold up better than one whose motion was "up and down." I do not want to see scores for "movement" to be based solely on how high the knees are raised when the horse trots!
paelmchen
Dear Breeder´s and Rider´s !

As Hansi said it right: A horse is a horse a horse a horse!

The Arabian is especially beautifull an intelligent, movement´s may vary a bit, but the physical basics are the same in all horse-races.

Walk, trot and canter, and in some special-races you have Tölt etc.

What I´ve seen in halter-show´s is this uptight trot, that makes every rider´s popo hurt so much, but this is not the horses fault!
Trainer´s make this poor horses so energized and scary. Why ???

In the horse-clinic, where my wife is working, the veterinary would diagnose back-problems, seeing horses trot like this !!
Rider´s primary lecture is to make horses relax, that is the only way to get real impulsion, make the back swing, asking your horse to move from the rear- end into the riders hand.

The only thing that makes Arabian-movements different,is the expression, and high-tail carriage !

Just a riders opinion.....

ciao roland palm

@Hansi !

I´ve sent you a private message, please check your inbox !
Caryn
Hi Journey,
That's a great example! Besides Arabians, I've also ridden and driven Morgans (one of my favorite breeds!), as well as American Saddlebreds and Quarter Horses, and each had a distinctively different way of going. While the tasks various breeds are given today certainly overlap, each seems to be especially suited for certain things closely related to the purpose for which they were originally designed. Although there are hard working Arabians on the streets of Cairo today who are used as beasts of burden, we all know that this is NOT what the Bedouins used them for, not what the royal Egyptian breeders sought them for, not how the breed was developed over thousands of years. Indeed, the Bedouins did not even their Arabians most of the time, but instead rode the camels and led the horses...saving them for battle.

Some may argue that contemporary Arabians of the Western Hemisphere seldom have to travel long distances through sand as their original ancestors did, and of course, they would be right. Nonetheless, this TYPE of movement is a hallmark of the breed, just as the beautiful head, graceful arched neck, high tail carriage and animated spirit are hallmarks of the breed. If we chose to ignore any of these, or to pick and choose which we feel are worthy of preservation, one by one we will eventually lose the distinguishing traits which set Arabians apart from all other equines. The Arabian horse should be a "floater", a distinctive style of movement which is not exactly the goal of a Saddlebred breeder! Unfortunately, the breed is sometimes influenced by those who came from other equine breeds and don't particularly cherish the original, authentic traits of the desertbred Arabian, -- but prefer to devolop a "new, modern" type of Arabian which combines their personal preferences of various breeds (spelled B-A-S-T-A-R-D-I-Z-A-T-I-O-N). wink.gif
Caryn
Guest
You know what would be really great? Can one of the members from the Middle East, for example, Princess Alia, Hassanin Al Nakeeb, Nasr Marei, Omar Sakr, Gulsun Sherif, Fatma Hamza, Chen Kendar, or Tzviah Idan share their perspectives on this term of "Arabian Movement"...can movement, as a direct result of life in the desert environment, continue to have predominance on horses many generations removed from desert living?
Ladypurr
Caryn,

Ditto! Touche and Right-On!

--Susan
Caryn
Hi Roland,
The ones that have the upright trots that make your "popo" hurt so much are the ones who LACK real Arabian movement. Have you ever ridden a Saddlebred? This is not a dressage type of horse. I took saddleseat equitation lessons on a Saddlebred many years ago, and while it was fun, I had a perpeteually pooped popo. wink.gif This type of movement (and wound-up behavior ) is what I'm referring to when I speak of the Saddlebred influence on Arabians. One of the other posters aptly cited the fact that the Arabian breed standard for movement does NOT require high knee action at the trot. The Saddlebred does. I think if you study horses that have that high knee action and lack fluid reach you will notice a direct relationship with the angle and length of the shoulder. Many very high-trotters tend to have a rather straight, shorter shoulder while the Arabian breed standard calls for a shoulder set at a 45 degree angle reaching well back to the withers (allowing more front end freedom and reach). Again, the relationship between breed standards for conformation and breed standards for movement and type.
Caryn
Stephanie
Hi Caryn,

I agree, this "Arabian Movement" is only one class of many. And I do also agree with you and others that Arabians do move differently if you compare them to other breeds.

Many people I have introduced to the breed had only seen them in classes like that and this wasn't on a specific show for the breed. I can't help nor change this fact. Many of these people had no idea the Arabian was capable of so much more. They had an image in their heads of, and I quote someone: "a garden ornament only ment to stand around and be pretty all day". And I've seen I'm not the only one that heard this comment. That's the general perception of the arabian and it's not easy to change until you get them to come along to shows and they see what Arabs are capable of.

I've ridden many different breeds and all of them had their pro's and con's. I liked all the horses I've met and ridden, even the Saddlebreds (allthough my popo hurt too after riding them).

This is no attack on anybody anywhere, it's a general perception of many people not accustomed to the Arabian Horse. Up to us, who do know a little more, to change this perception. Wouldn't it be nice to have a show, where you have a mix of halter classes, ridden classes and performance classes? There aren't many around like that and I think something like that would change the image of our "beautiful" Arabian.

My best regards,
Stephanie
Caryn
Hi Stephanie,
There's no question that the perception you've described is rather widespread amongst non-Arabian folk. If you read my posts in the "Laughing Stock" thread, you'll see that I fully recognize this. It will take time to overcome the misconceptions which began with the explosion of Egyptian Arabian popularity in the 1980s, where passive ownership and huge prices became the norm. One of my first SE mares was priced at $250,000 during that period (before I acquired her) and that was not unusual for a good Straight Egyptian mare! When you couple that kind of money with passive ownership (tax write-offs), it isn't hard to see why Halter became the primary and preferred means of promotion; less danger of injury, less training, less downtime in the breeding shed. These are not the kinds of conditions that exist today, at least not on a large scale. I believe that most informed SE breeders today realize that the best way to insure that their horses have good homes for the rest of their lives (which are relatively long) is to increase their overall marketability beyond Halter and breeding interests...which means saddle breaking and training them.

The Egyptian Event is a show which offers a good mix of Halter and Performance classes. The performance classes at the Egyptian Event are definitely growing, a very positive thing for everyone. I have found that horse people (in general) tend to be quite loyal to their own preferred breed and sometimes a bit closed minded about other breeds. Once a perception is formed, it is sometimes a bit of a challenge to change...but it is happening. The more personal exposure the general horse community has with beautiful, well behaved, talented Arabians the better. Thank you for being a good and active ambassador for the Arabian horse!
Caryn
Guest
For starters take those heavy shoes and pads off. Then keep their hooves at a normal length. Hard to believe those halter classes with those feet. Its very funny.
Geldings from Heaven
I just had to add my two cents worth in . . . several years ago when I was showing my wonderful gelding, a judge walked up to my daughter (his rider) and made the comment, "He moves with such gaiety of motion." Gaiety of Motion . . . how lovely. It brings to mind suspension, float, joy in movement. Since my boy is a hunter type horse with a flat kneed trot, I really have to say that I think the Arab motion is not really a "style" . . . like lofty (which is beautiful to behold) or flat kneed (can be quite elegant) . . . it is that floating, airy-fairy way of going that makes the beholder smile, the rider comfortable, and the horse appear to be so happy to be moving forward.

My boy was a lovely dressage horse in his day . . . he made it through Level 2 and was ready to start Level 3 before I decided enough . . . I want a trail horse. The truth is . . . that wonderful floaty trot which is so lovely to see in the show ring is perfectly delightful on a trail ride. And the other truth is . . . Arabs are the perfect "do everything" horse . . . owing much to the fact that they have that delightful "Arab movement". My gelding won championships in Hunter Pleasure and Show Hack. He successfully competed in Dressage with scores usually in the mid-70s. He was endurance raced once (just a 25-miler), finished 2nd and took best condition, and he is a rock solid trail horse. He does it all and he does it all well.

I don't believe that the term arab motion is a negative . . . I think it's a positive. No other breed of horse in the world moves like an Arab . . . it's beautiful, graceful, light . . . aren't they a joy!!!
Caryn
Gaity of motion...yes, that's it. An expression of a proud, confident and happy horse! I love it.
Caryn
paelmchen
You got it !!

Our gelding`s were halter-champions, passed several FN Test`s in show-jumping and dressage, started at the Arabissimo in Deurne (Netherlands)and there will be much more!

Gaiety of motion..............That´s it !

ciao roland palm
HLM
Hi Roland

Webster would be amazed how many new words, definitions he could ad. biggrin.gif

I have a feeling that some posters completely misunderstood. May be they are laymen, I do not know. Or just sat on a horse riding around the block.

It depends greatly on the equstrian knowledge of the person, able to recognize "gaits", proper ones.
Movement is based on conformation. Sometimes one sees a horse showing a front- extention- the foot showing way ahead, but coming down way behind what it shown. that is a matter of shoulder.
Some cant engage behind, because again the conformation does not allow it.

tails: Straight up and curled: Have not seen it in Western classes, dressage classes or hunter/jumper classes, but have not seen them all either. I refer to Arabians.

Reach: that is what counts, long, short or none. A horse should overstep the imprint of the front by at least 12 inches. Mine do as much as 24 inches, one even 28 (Serenity Inifeh) which is unusual. the walk is often handycapped by the handler, by hanging on the leadline,keeping that head star gazing and the horse simply can not step forward, as it might be able to.
A horse will in most cases walk proplery, when calm and on a lose shank/rein. It is hard to judge the walk on a prancing horse. Many, who simply can not trott right out, will break into a canter to compensate. But this can also happen on very young horses, or improper training, or exitement.
When a veterinarian examines, he/she for sure wants an honest gait- espcially in the walk, that goes for all breeds.

a judge has to be very good to recognize all this when having so little time for each horse.


"Movement" is not a seperate class but the vital part in a halter class (Breeding class)."Type" is the recognition of the breed. Movement should be judged identical for horses, they either can or can not.Balance is important, natural one.

High action. Sometimes bred on (saddlebreds, hackneys) sometimes created through particular shoeing.
An experienced rider knows exactly what to tell the blacksmith of what should be corrected, because such rider feels this under his/her seat, even when such horse steps one inch shorter behind with regard to the other foot. I guess OUR hips are great telltalers.

then of course in any breed are those "airi" ones, and those "clunkers". that has nothing to do with a breed. Even a Lippizan can be airi. Of course, one has to consider cold and warmblood horses (lightbreeds) too.

In general, I always say, the Arabian horses touches the ground but with contempt. Indeed it is a superior feeling than with other breeds, and I think, I have ridden most all of them. It is so much easier to train and ride an arabian horse, also because of its intelligence and with it great sensitivity, especially the SE's. That's wby we breed them.

Just my opinion
Have a great day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Caryn
The subject of distinctive "Arabian Movement" and/or its relationship to "Arabian Conformation" and "Arabian Type" is not new. Historic Arabian horse literature makes many references to this. Here are just a few that I thought may be of interest:

"THE ARABIAN HORSE", Sherbatov and Stroganov, 1900.
Movements, Strength, Endurance (Page 16)
"All paces reveal the following characteristic trait: the Arabian never raises its forelegs very high and these are hardly bent at the knee and pastern, but are thrown forward boldly as if the animal was seeking to stand on its hoof-tips. This movement is elegant, giving an impression of great elasticity and tautness of muscle", and "...The gallop is, of course, its best pace; it does so with exceptional lightness, elegance and springiness. It stretches out less than the English thoroughbred does, the beat is more frequent and one has the impression that the horse enjoys itself and is not making the slightest effort".

LADY ANNE BLUNT (1879), See Asil Araber (Page 120):
"It is commonly said in England that the Arabian has but one pace, the gallop; and in a certain sense this is true. Trotting is discouraged by the Bedouin colt-breakers, who, riding on an almost impossible pad, and without stirrups, find that pace inconvenient. But with a little patience, the deficiency can easily be remedied, and a good shoulder action given. No pure bred Arabian however is a high stepper. His style of galloping is long and low, the counterpart of our English thoroughbreds."

In Dr. Nagel's book "HANAN", he states:
"Powerful light movements are characteristic of this small population {Arabians}. Especially in movement, the charm of the breed shows clearly, reflecting its natural temperament." In captioned photos he refers to "the floating movements of Nawal", and the "movements of extreme lightness" in Sanana.

In "THE CLASSIC ARABIAN HORSE", Judith Forbis refers to proper Arabian "Action" (Page 231):
"Smart, free, naturally balanced acton. A picture of harmony in motion. At the walk, fast and free, hind feet sometimes overstep the front track by 8 to 12 inches. At the trot, action is extremely brilliant, almost "floating". The front limbs move with unrestricted shoulder and knee action; the hock action is forward with a swinging stride. At the canter, action must be smooth and collected, not jerkyor stilted. At the gallop, action is very free and light with long ground-covering strides. " Under "Faults", Mrs. Forbis notes "...ewe neck or stiff angular neck" and under illustrations for correct vs. incorrect conformation features, comments on shoulder as follows:
"Correct - Sloping, long, clean and flat, free in movement, well laid over with muscle."
"Incorrect - Short and straight."

So, for me, there is a strong and clear link between "Arabian Type" (specific characteristics, physical and non-physical, which distinguish Arabians from other breeds), "Arabian Conformation" (specific skeletal traits which distinguish Arabians from other breeds), and "Arabian Movement", which actually combines the elements of conformation and type; through style, mechanics, animation, and spirit specific to the Arabian breed. I enjoyed re-reading these descriptions, as I recalled the posts on this thread. Sure sounds like "Gaity of movement" to me! rolleyes.gif
Caryn
Stacie_H
Hansi, I had to smile at "Arabian Trot" and the like.

I'm almost waiting for the day when I take my mare to an open show and here "Everyone, please canter or lope, or do an Arabian canter, or a QH lope, or a TB canter, or a Pony canter...." I'd feel sorry for the announcer if such a case ever popped up!

Probably copying everyone else by saying this but truly, I cannot understand that difference. Although Arabians do move differently than QH's (obviously), there is no reason for the "high-class" name of Arabian movement. Just stick to movement.
Eric
Ummm, Arabian Movement is NOT a class. It is a sub-category in Arabian Halter. So what horse do you think should pin higher in an Arabian Halter class, one who has big knee action but doesn't extend his front legs, or one who extends his front legs? Read the descriptions above. Get it?
HLM
Hi dear Eric
Are you certain you understood what I was refering to? We are getting here all sorts of elaborations.

In a Halter/breeding class the most important part of it is "conformation" while type explains it's breed.
The conformation is giving cause to "gaites" which in halter/breeding classes means "walk and Trott." without it, you dont have a halter class, and it cant be a sub-categorie either. It is the very assential ,intricent part to judge a breeding animal or one qualifying or not for it.

But let me try to explain a bit more. If the horse walks/trotts and steps okay, but has bad faulty legs/hoofs, it might be able to walk/trott the short distance required for judges to see, but might never last in tests going over distances and/or under stress. therefore, the latter will be taken into account.

for instance, if a judge sees flimpsy hocks, poor gaskins, bad shoulders, improper angulation in the rearend, poor muscling, roll-bearing type ancles, such experienced judge knows exactly what will happen, when under the saddle. But the judge can also tell the good points and can see, when a horse works from the rearend, and has an adequate "reach". I have seen more tipple toe and sewing machine type movements in Arabians then you can imagine.
such horse can not compete against those, who do better ,in a million years. They wear out too quickly, breakdown, etc.. But they can very well be utilized for pleasure riding when no demands are made..

But a breeding horse is not just employed to breed tipple toe pleasure horses. It is bred to perform also under great stress and come back home sound and pass these traits on. the real clue truly comes, when such horse is under saddle. there you instantly can see or feel what is what. while indeed the Arabian horse moves lighter, more airi, just the same it has to have correct gaits, as required from all quine., which should not differ.

I know, many a book fantazieses about certain things, often by those who have never been on a horse, and many different breeds. Others even less informed, quote such
authors. But they are also authors who are excellent equestrians/riders and can form a better judgment, and indeed laugh often over certain statements, which simply are far fetched. How do you know how a particular type of car handles, if you have never driven, only been a passenger??? I tell you one thing, the experienced dressage,jumping or endurance rider can tell you of differences. And even under the arabians are "clunkers" who fall over a twine.

therefore, the walk, trott is judged equal on all breeds.
While some might step higher infront than others, they still have to show a "reach". If that is not there, you have the answer.

Indeed it is hard and difficult to explain in writing here what is truly meant. One would have to see it, see comparrisons or feel such, and then can judge accordingly.

Just my opinion, Eric.

Hansi
Eric
yes, I understand just fine. You're mixing up oranges and apples, leg conformation and Arabian movement. They are two different categories in judging halter. A horse can have good legs but not be able to reach them out much because the shoulder is bad or he's tied in at he elbows.
I've seen this on Arabs and on Saddlebreds. On a Saddlebred that's okay as long as they raise the knee up high at the trot but with an Arab its not okay. They aren't supposed to have high knee action, they're supposed to move out low and long. Different type of movement for different breeds. Arab movement is Arab movement and yes, I definitely think that's what it should be called that. Wasn't that your question?
paelmchen
Hi Eric !

I´m not shure you understood what Hansi was refering to.
Experienced riders have a different, and in my opinion more differenciated look at a horses movements.
That is because they feel the horses movements sitting on it, and most of them have a better knowledge, as most of the spectators!
Another aspect is, if you want to reach a higher level in dressage, excellent conformation of the horse is a matter of course !

ciao roland palm
Eric
QUOTE (paelmchen @ Jun 13 2003, 11:04 PM)
Hi Eric !

I´m not shure you understood what Hansi was refering to.
Experienced riders have a different, and in my opinion more differenciated look at a horses movements.
So let´s take a look ! What do you think of this horse?

http://www.distanz-pferde.de/start.htm


ciao roland palm

Yeah, really, I do understand. It isn't that hard. I am an experienced rider myself. Judy Forbis and Lady Blunt were both real experienced riders themselves and I'm willing to bet they both had a good idea of what they were talking about. I went back to make sure I got this question right, and I believe I did. Hansi asked "May be it should just be named "Movement" leaving that "Arabian" infront out. what do you all think??" Like I said, I think NO. We should not call it just "movement " because it is not the same as all breeds. But hey, the lady asked for opinons and thats just mine. You all are entitled to your own as well.
The horse in the picture is sure pretty but sorry, I wouldn't try to judge movement by a snapshot. Here you can't see him (or her) overstepping with the hind legs and he doesn't look like he's extending out in the front. But like I said, that might just be this one snapshot and may be its the wrong impression, this could be a great moving horse in person.
HLM
Sorry dear Eric, NO I DONT GET IT AT ALL.!!!!!!

the Arabian foot dwells, but so do those of many warmbloods in an extension.

We were not talking of who has more or less knee action, we were talking of an "honest True Walk and trott" any equine should give and the good ones have..

Now dear Eric, did you get this? biggrin.gif

have a nice eening
Hansi
HLM
Hi Eric
I dont understand what you are saying, my dear.
I am mixing apple with apples, not with oranges.
I only gave "faults' as an example, which had nothing to do with proper gaits, or reach.

People I spoke to, experienced horsemen/woman intrepete "Arabian movement" by what they saw on many, namly a tipple toe, sewing machine type action. Believe me, I have seen very,very few SE's noaways which can 'Move". Ansata IemHotep was one of them, and those who saw it, will have a guideline of what I am speaking off.
surely, nobody can accuse this magnificent stallion having "Arabian Movement" he has the movement of a top horse. recognizable by any knowledgable horseman//women, instantly realizing what this Arabian could do under saddle and when in competition against all breeds..

furthermore, while I understand why this definition came about, it does matter as far as outsiders, owners of other breeds, newcommers, etc.are concerned and I dont like when the top Se Arabians are thought of as tipple toers and sewing machine gaiters.

When Dr Crance (Marbach) saw Serenity Habib performing at a dressage show, not knowing the horse at all, he searched for him at the show, looked him over and Marbach leased him for a few yeas. It was not because he had "Arabian Movement" but moved like a "Horse"
with usually getting "20" for movements in halter classes.
When Serenity Habib lined up against 7 other arab stallions at the Babolna Stallion selection show to be allowed to breed also shagya Mares, he was the only one selected and licenced for such. In this selection were Babolna bred and owned stallions involved as well, which were not licended..

When I watch the vidios of racehorses, including ours- (arabs)- they ALL MOVE LIKE HORSES, and dont have this "Arabian movement" which is apparently so named, because it is to show that an Arabian Horse moves differently, which they do not in my experiences.
It is also possibible that we all think of the same thing, but express it in words differently.

anyway dear Eric, no hard feelings. biggrin.gif

Have a nice evening
hansi
Eric
QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 14 2003, 01:59 AM)
Hi Eric
I dont understand what you are saying, my dear.
I am mixing apple with apples, not with oranges.
I only gave "faults' as an example, which had nothing to do with proper gaits, or reach.

People I spoke to, experienced horsemen/woman intrepete "Arabian movement" by what they saw on many, namly a tipple toe, sewing machine type action. Believe me, I have seen very,very few SE's noaways which can 'Move". Ansata IemHotep was one of them, and those who saw it, will have a guideline of what I am speaking off.
surely, nobody can accuse this magnificent stallion having "Arabian Movement" he has the movement of a top horse. recognizable by any knowledgable horseman//women, instantly realizing what this Arabian could do under saddle and when in competition against all breeds..

furthermore, while I understand why this definition came about, it does matter as far as  outsiders, owners of other breeds, newcommers, etc.are concerned and I dont like when the top Se Arabians are thought of as tipple toers and sewing machine gaiters.

When Dr Crance (Marbach) saw Serenity Habib performing at a dressage show, not knowing the horse at all, he searched for him at the show, looked him over and Marbach leased him for a few yeas. It was not because he had "Arabian Movement" but moved like a "Horse"
with usually getting "20" for movements in halter classes.
When Serenity Habib lined up against 7 other arab stallions at the Babolna Stallion selection show to be allowed to breed also shagya Mares, he was the only one selected and licenced for such. In this selection were Babolna bred and owned stallions involved as well, which were not licended..

When I watch the vidios of racehorses, including ours- (arabs)- they ALL MOVE LIKE HORSES, and dont have this "Arabian movement" which is apparently so named, because it is to show that an Arabian Horse moves differently, which they do not in my experiences.
It is also possibible that we all think of the same thing, but express it in words differently.

anyway dear Eric, no hard feelings. biggrin.gif

Have a nice evening
hansi

Hansi, I'm not sure if your confused or I'm confused, but if you don't like the sewing maching movement then you should want to see more ARABIAN Movement in Arabian shows. Sewing machine movement is the opposite of real Arabian movement. Arabs should not move this way and should not win when they do. I think we are agreeing on this, but I'm not sure. Ansata Iemhotep has what I call true Arabian Movement, which is why he scored a perfect 20 for this. Sounds right to me. I've seen plent of the sewing machines too, they did NOT have true Arabian movement. By the way I wasn't addressing you when I said "Get it?" I was addressing someone else. I really don't have any more to say on this as I'm getting to feel a little dizzy from going back and forth, but I thank you for the conversation. I do appreciate your time.
Stephanie
Good Morning Caryn,

I understand what your saying and I hope many people understand what we're trying to do. smile.gif More and more people come to shows with an open mind, it's only the ones that have been into very specific breeds or disciplines, that still need a little (read: a lot) of convincing.

The overall attitude is changing and I'm happy. Nowadays I can consider buying my own instead of training other peoples Arabians. I hope in a couple of years time, we will have many shows around where halter mixes with performance, like your Egyptian Event. People want to perform with their horses and not just in Halter. biggrin.gif

Who knows, maybe we will meet one day somewhere on this globe and we can discuss the history of the Arabian over a cold drink. tongue.gif

Have a nice day,
Stephanie
paelmchen
Good morning dear posters !

To protect us from missunderstanding,I´ve searched in the Classical Dressage Notebook for a describtion of the gaits.
Here it is,written bye Sue Morris, and that is what I`m talking about, especially the trot-movement.
Arabian horses are no exception to this rules!

1. The trot is a pace of "two time" on alternate diagonal legs (near left fore and right hind leg and vice versa) separated by a moment of suspension.

2. The trot, always with free, active and regular steps, should be moved into without hesitation.

3. The quality of the trot is judged by the general impression, the regularity and elasticity of the steps - originated from a supple back and well engaged hindquarters - and by the ability of maintaining the same rhythm and natural balance even after a transition from one trot to another.

4. The following trots are recognised: working trot, collected trot, medium trot and extended trot. (Classical dressage also recognises the school trot.)

4.1 Collected Trot. The horse remaining on the bit moves forward with his neck raised and arched. The hocks being well engaged maintain an energetic impulsion thus enabling the shoulders to move with greater ease in any direction. The horse's steps are shorter than in the other trots but he is lighter and more mobile.

4.2 Working Trot. This is a pace between the collected and the medium trot in which a horse not yet trained and ready for collected movements shows himself properly balanced and, remaining on the bit, goes forward with even, elastic steps and good hock action. The expression "good hock action" does not mean that collection is a required quality of Working trot. It only underlines the importance of an impulsion originated from the activity of the hindquarters.

4.3 Medium Trot. This is a pace between the working and the extended trot but more "round" than the latter. The horse goes forward with clear and moderately lengthened steps and with an obvious impulsion from the hindquarters. The rider allows the horse remaining on the bit to carry his head a little more in front of the vertical than at the collected and the working trot and allows him at the same time to lower his head and neck slightly. The steps should be even and the whole movement balanced and unconstrained.

4.4 Extended Trot. The horse covers as much ground as possible. Maintaining the same cadence he lengthens his steps to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hindquarters. The rider allows the horse remaining on the bit without leaning on it to lengthen his frame and to gain ground. The forefeet should touch the ground on the spot towards which they are pointing. The movement of the fore and hind legs should be similar (parallel) in the forward movement of the extension. The whole movement should be well balanced and the transition to collected trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight on the hindquarters.


A horse is a horse....................Arabians too!


“To be an equestrian in the classical sense is not just to be a rider.

It is a position in life”


ciao roland palm
HLM
good morning dear Roland and all

thank you for the post, that's EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT.
I just felt, by creating a definition, such as "Arabian Movement" attention is drawn to it in particular by those who own/ride other breeds. when they now wtach the lesser gifted Arabians move, and conclude with remarks such as : Tipple Toers, Sewing machine gaits, etc, quickly the ignorant will pick it up and strive on it. the marks given at the E.Event, ranging between 16-17,7 for Arabian movement leaves a lot to think about.

I switched from warmblood in 1967 to the Se's and never once regretted it. there simply is no other breed in my opinion, which gives so much, is so easy to train, to be maintained and so caring for their riders. While I get upset with bad remarks by people from other breeds, I always try my best to set things straight in a fair manner,
giving lots of room for improvement. Only through critizism can we all improve matters, no matter what. But when they are right, then we have to do something about it.

I hope I explained myself good, and possible help change setting things straight and may be come up with a better difinition.

Have a wonderful day
Hansi biggrin.gif
HLM
good morning dear Eric
thank you for your opinion. I am getting dizzy too. roland explained things well, and that is what I mean, as do other experts in this field. I think we are talking somehow paralell. anyway, let others now give their opinion. biggrin.gif

thanks again for your replies
Hansi
Guest
I think the definition we have is just fine and accurate. Just because some people don't understand what Arabian movement really means it doesn't mean the term should be changed. Better to educate them.
Stephanie
Hi Guest,

I think that's what a lot of us are trying. Educate people who have their opinion ready before knowing anything about it. I've been into Arabians for quite some time, but what I know of the breed fits into a nutshell. You never know enough and after a while it's hard not to loose your patience with people who are so hard-headed. (I'm not sure that's the way to write it, but think you get the picture of steam coming out of my ears). biggrin.gif

Have a nice evening,
Stephanie
Caryn
Hi All,
I may be mistaken, but I think what is happening here is that we are speaking of two different, but very closely related/integrated things: 1. A style of natural movement, which is possible only when a certain combination of conformational elements and spirit exist. 2. A particular discipline which requires the pre-existence of number one.
In the first place, nature provides; in the second place, training provides.

It seems to me that it is a progression from natural movement (the physical ability to move a certain way) to predisposition for a particular discipline. Good Arabian movement, according to breed standards, being the type of movement which appears to lend itself extremely well to Dressage -- one of the reasons why authentic type Arabians tend to excel in this discipline? From the notes that Roland provided, and from studying the photos of Dressage horses in the other thread, my impression is that Dressage type movement well fits the descriptions (of proper Arabian movement) provided long ago by such people as Sherbatov and Lady Anne, and more recently by Judi Forbis and Dr. Nagel, etc. Therefore, they may be one in the same, in a manner of speaking.

Might it be that POOR examples of Arabian movement may sometimes be mistaken by newcomers at shows to be PROPER Arabian movement, simply because they hear the term and assume it refers to the poor examples they may be seeing? Certainly movement which has been described as "sewing machine" or "tippy-toe" movement is, as stated in another post, very much the opposite from proper Arabian movement. This is underscored by the fact that Ansata Iemhotep did get a perfect score for "Arabian" movement. To me, that says that the definition and terminology fit the right picture.

From what I'm understanding, supressed or primarily vertical type of movement of the front legs is also opposite from Dressage type movement. However, it is closer to the type of movement which is preferred in some other breeds (such as Saddlebreds) and for some disciplines other than Dressage (such as English Pleasure, where high knee action is very important).

I'm not sure that I said that clearly enough, but my feeling is that those who are heavily involved in Dressage may be assuming that all horses of all breeds are expected to move in that manner (good moving Arabians do), but that is not exactly the case. For example, the extreme vertical knee lift, not the light, lower, ground covering trot, is preferred in Saddlebreds for such disciplines as English Pleasure and Park. My sense is that when the breed standards become at all blurred, when correct Arabian conformation and type is put on the back burner to focus on extreme elements which are often non-Arabian in type, such things as a good, laid back 45 degree shoulder and good leg placement (per Arabian breed standards) are sometimes overlooked...thus, good Arabian movement suffers. Maybe this is where the inconfusion comes in?
Caryn
Caryn
diane
ok - my opinion....

wink.gif goes along the lines of : there is no real “Arabian” MOVEMENT ~ a horse is a horse is a horse confirming Hansi’s thoughts (along with many others’ thoughts). I do believe there is variety within the Arabian (a view not shared by many), more than likely from the Arabian Horse’s inception and is still apparent today, therefore the Arabian as a BREED will present different styles or should I write TYPES of movement. Ultimately suggesting there is no one type of movement or one type of conformation for the Arabian Horse as a Breed. Yes, I do believe the Arabian has the best gaiety about their movement stemming as much from their individual characters and mood at the time as their conformational attributes will allow. And I do believe the Arabian holds its own as the superior light-horse of all time, nothing matches it in the abilities as a Breed. Nothing ever will.

I have neighbours ( rolleyes.gif don’t we all) who have small ponies and warmblood / TB. These representatives of their respective Breeds and cross-breds can certainly get up and bogey if and when the situation suits them. Their performance displays are certainly up there and are certainly attention grabbing! Both groups performing in their respective show ring categories (pony hack and dressage). Though what I have noticed is the Arabian holds their displays for longer and perform them more often smile.gif Epitomising the term “light-horse”.

Categorising the Arabian to perform like X is so very wrong. The Arabian performs as per its conformational limitations as Caryn has suggested in one of her posts. To suggest examples, in 1881 RD Upton, when describing individual Arabians from different tribes, suggests there was a variance between at least two tribes horses and basically describes the variance as less bloodlike and more beefy, he also describes individuals – no two exactly but quintessentially alike. Along with modern (turn of the past century) pictures and descriptions of strain examples verifies the variance within the Breed. To suggest these variances would all perform the same is nonsense and very ignorant. Along with conformational differences there are character differences both of which control types of movement displayed within individual Arabian bloodlines and the Breed in its entirety. What I see/hear/read is/are exceptional individuals' achievements being held as the rule – this is indeed so wrong eg all people can run yet only the exceptional qualify to run in competitions. Exceptions should be recognised and admired for their respective exceptional qualities.

Confusion? To be perfectly blunt and, as ever, outspoken, if more people went to the basics of conformation and riding skills ie got more dirt under their nails so to speak, rather than just being kissed by the fabled South Wind maybe there wouldn’t be this confusion. Please, go out and watch your Arabian (and other breeds), leave the rose coloured glasses in the barn and dissect your Arabian’s movement and accept it for what it is. See this movement for what it is, understand why it is so and then we can all enjoy the Breed with its limiting variations – choose which one you like and enjoy it, but don’t de-ride others of the pleasure they gain from what more than likely is only a variation to the Breed. Movement of an Arabian is what is because it is a representative of the Arabian Horse Breed. The Arabian, who as a Breed is the progenitor for the majority of the warmblooded breeds today.
How can one breed be so influential to so many breeds when there wasn’t the variety/variance to allow such variety to happen in the first place? (A rhetorical question ~though something to ponder perhaps).
Andante1
Some Questions

1) the early writers maintain that the arabian is renowned for his canter and hardly trots - so why do our modern halter/freestyle classes emphasise trot and pay very little attention to walk and canter?

2) eric made the point about looking at the shoulder and hindquarter as well as the legs - how many people look at the horse's natural ability to lift and engage its back?

I've just read a lovely little book on the Courthouse stud - Musgrave Clarke's emphasis was more on the way the horse travels - a good quality arabian will move well, and the conformation either supports the good movement or if it lacks the conformation to move well then it will fail to move well.

3) how many people here judge the arabian horse by its way of going as opposed to the still life picture?
Caryn
A reasonable degree of variation of movement in Arabians is a given, considering the variation of conformation and individual personality differences between Arabians. The same goes for other categories of the breed description. I have a question for all reading this thread. How many people believe that an Arab should move like a what is considered the ideal movement for a Saddlebred?
Caryn
diane
"Reasonable variation" - perhaps this is where confusion manifests itself... reasonably has similar connotations as how long is a piece of string! (no malice intended) smile.gif The Bedouin, it appears, were quite clear / decisive on what type of horse belonged to whom by its basic conformational variances and appearance!!

Understanding what gives a high knee action; little to no follow through (overstride); appearance of cow-hocked movement, stride elevation / impulsion etc is in the conformation of the individual. Understanding conformation is what will bring people to understand the variances within the Breed. Not by just reading the standard (man-made perfection ideals) and looking at cut off stills of horses along with stating prejudices.

I've not seen enough saddlebreds to give an assessment/comparison. But what I can suggest is one particular example... a very beautiful sE stallion.... great conformation, a video of him showed he had a high knee action, his conformation didn't reflect this; basically I believe he was feeling that way on the day of the video shoot. Why? because within subsequent footage of the same stallion he presented a 'lower' ground covering knee action to his trot, in a huge way! More relfective of his conformation. Exceptions rule. The versatility/attitude could be there for a horse to present a-look-alike high knee action? Some do it better than others. And a high knee action shouldn't necessarily be frowned upon ~ within natural reasoning. Artifical inducements of action/movement should not be condoned, for any breed.

A whole horse (including disposition) generates its movement. Singling out a part of the whole doesn't necessarily work. Though I do admit, seeing conformation which promises movement extraordinaire but doesn't, is disappointing and vice-versa - disappointing conformation which shows brilliant movement. Nature is wonderful in the way that it works. Not moving as conformation dictates could be explained possibly by a soreness or mental distraction/reluctance or through sheer enthusiam. Not ruling out enviromental constraints either. What is presented on the day may not be a reflection of true capabilities.

Understanding - it all takes a lot of understanding! smile.gif


Neat questions Lisa! I don't know the answer to the trot v canter/walk!!

An interesting reflection was pointed out to me the other day... a compact individual when ridden finds it easier to evade or disengage engagement than a longer backed individual! Therefore there is more precision needed of a rider on a compact individual as compared to a rider on a longer backed potentially weaker loined horse! Which basically suggests what the conformation type dictates - greater strength. One thing which I read constantly from the authors of the late 1800s is that most individuals they saw were compact (short-backed) potentially tight loins more so than the 45 degree shoulder angulation. The difference, as I see it, seems to be more towards how much ground an individual stood over ie the placement of their arm (not fore-arm) / shoulder angulation and pelvis/hindquarter!! Along with the depth of chest or not (blood-like v beefy??) and body type (beefy v bloodlike). These same authors also suggest the length of croup on an Arabian Horse could appear to be lacking but the tenacity (and sinew) of the Arabian Horse allowed it to be strong and flexible in this region under saddle. Have we as modern breeders focused on the correct attributes belonging to the horse of the Bedouin?

My thoughts, as suggested previously, perspective and context should be reviewed in comparison to the Bedouin's horse. Not necessarily what we or other non-Bedouin persons believe it should be! After all - the Breed was one of the first 'created', way before the 20th century when most other warmblooded breeds were commencing their creation.
Guest
QUOTE (diane @ Jun 16 2003, 04:31 AM)
Understanding what gives a high knee action; little to no follow through (overstride); appearance of cow-hocked movement, stride elevation / impulsion etc is in the conformation of the individual.  Understanding conformation is what will bring people to understand the variances within the Breed.  Not by just reading the standard (man-made perfection ideals) and looking at cut off stills of horses along with stating prejudices.

Diane, I do understand conformation as it relates to movement quite well --- not merely from reading books, but through many years of riding, studying flesh and blood animals, breeding Arabian horses, caring for them on a daily basis and raising them to productive adulthood. It so happens that my personal observations and experiences confirm for me the descriptions and analysis provided by some of the world's most recognized Arabian horse "experts", such as those I've posted here. As I mentioned, I have ridden, studied equitation on the backs of a variety of breeds, including Arabians, Morgans and Saddlebreds. A good friend breeds, trains and shows Saddlebreds and National Show Horses. I have appreciated the opportunity to glean something from this exposure. For those who are not familiar, the Saddlebred is a neat, five gaited horse who racks; descending in part from the Narragansett Pacer. For Saddlebreds, the higher the knee action the better, breaking above level is widely preferred. The slow gait extremely collected, precise and restrained -- a tremendous amount of energy going into vertical motion. Very showy and impressive to watch, but not very efficient in terms of covering ground quickly or conserving energy.

I would strongly suggest, as it seems logical to me, that such restraint, such an extreme degree of elevation of the knees (front feet landing relatively close to the chest) is not a characteristic kind of movement which was selectively bred for in desertbred Arabian horses. I have to wonder how quickly Arabian horses would move through the desert with that type of motion. I disagree with your assesment that the shoulder angle is not stated as relatively important, I can't think of a single Arabian horse authority who has not emphasized it.

"A horse is a horse" -- indeed, but an Arabian horse is a very unique kind of horse. I strongly believe that there ARE/SHOULD BE very obvious differences between Arabians and other breeds in many areas, including motion. I prefer to see these distinctions highlighted rather than blurred, in order to perpetuate distinct breed type. This does not contradict the fact this is one of the most versatile of all breeds, and most of all, these horses should be enjoyed. I absolutely appreciate the value of personal preference, we are all fortunate to love a breed which can be enjoyed in so many ways. Personally, I will continue to prefer Arabians who strongly express themselves as distinctly "Arabian" in all ways. I will continue to seek out those individuals who best exhibit those defining differences as breeding stock, with the transmission of those distinctions (including Arabian movement) as a primary goal.
Caryn
HLM
Hi diane

Of course there are in any breed "clunkers" etc.
Even when you drive a car of the same type, you will find a difference in each one.

Only those, who have ridden many other breeds, many arabians, can determine which of the horses they enjoyed best. But this is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the actual gaits, which are alike in all horses.
You will find the differences based on conformation. A horse, which has no rearend, cant impulse forward as those who do. I horse who has no shoulder, cant reach as far and you post more often in the saddle than on those who do have a reach. Of course, there is a destinct difference in lightness, i.e. Percheon vs Tb and Tb vs Arabian. there is also a difference in training, an Arabian is far easier to train.

Dressage is only a pheuraceutical exercise, to build muslce, balance, etc. It is not to be confused with something unnatural. It is the whomb of all equine sports.

For instance, Van Szandler was known to be the 'Master Driver". that's all he did, I guess. But also these carriage horses, Arabs, shagyas, Araber-Rasse- could do the two track exercise while infront of the carriages. the earlier ground training made them more efficient. all european Cavalery horses went through ardent dressage training, to make them "Lighter" more balanced and obidient. the officers mostly rode grand prix horses.

But also in such training are destinct differences in horses. some cant get over level 3, other not over level 4, and some get up to up to the Grand Prix. that is a combination of mind and body. and it does have a lot to do with "conformation" .

One can instantly detect, when a layman writes, or an experienced horseman./woman. I often wonder why this is done, other than giving some of us a healthy laugh.
Practize is so different than talk, or quoting from books.
Often such quotes are also totally misunderstood by laymen, I think. Everyone of us, who learned to ride, knows what I am talking about.

Just take a look at the various lovely photos of the dressage riders. their body position reflects the horse's movement. and indeed I can see a true "trott" and not what some call an "Aabian movement". these horses have to compete in open shows, against all other breeds. Howelse can they win? do you really think the judges know that there is a definition of "Arabian Trott/movement" and judge accordingly? I doubt it.
How can these riders win, if their horses had a particular gait? It is not just the execution of a movement, but how it is done.

Just my opinion
Hansi
Yuck
QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 16 2003, 02:55 PM)
Hi diane

Of course there are in any breed "clunkers" etc.
Even when you drive a car of the same type, you will find a difference in each one.

Only those, who have ridden many other breeds, many arabians, can determine which of the horses they enjoyed best. But this is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the actual gaits, which are alike in all horses.
You will find the differences based on conformation. A horse, which has no rearend, cant impulse forward as those who do. I horse who has no shoulder, cant reach as far and you post more often in the saddle than on those who do have a reach. Of course, there is a destinct difference in lightness, i.e. Percheon vs Tb and Tb vs Arabian. there is also a difference in training, an Arabian is far easier to train.

Dressage is only a pheuraceutical exercise, to build muslce, balance, etc. It is not to be confused with something unnatural. It is the whomb of all equine sports.

For instance, Van Szandler was known to be the 'Master Driver". that's all he did, I guess. But also these carriage horses, Arabs, shagyas, Araber-Rasse- could do the two track exercise while infront of the carriages. the earlier ground training made them more efficient. all european Cavalery horses went through ardent dressage training, to make them "Lighter" more balanced and obidient. the officers mostly rode grand prix horses.

But also in such training are destinct differences in horses. some cant get over level 3, other not over level 4, and some get up to up to the Grand Prix. that is a combination of mind and body. and it does have a lot to do with "conformation" .

One can instantly detect, when a layman writes, or an experienced horseman./woman. I often wonder why this is done, other than giving some of us a healthy laugh.
Practize is so different than talk, or quoting from books.
Often such quotes are also totally misunderstood by laymen, I think. Everyone of us, who learned to ride, knows what I am talking about.

Just take a look at the various lovely photos of the dressage riders. their body position reflects the horse's movement. and indeed I can see a true "trott" and not what some call an "Aabian movement". these horses have to compete in open shows, against all other breeds. Howelse can they win? do you really think the judges know that there is a definition of "Arabian Trott/movement" and judge accordingly?  I doubt it.
How can these riders win, if their horses had a particular gait? It is not just the execution of a movement, but how it is done.

Just my opinion
Hansi

Up until now I was enjoying this discussion. Nothing turns me off more than arrogance. People who go out of their way to ridicule others turn me off most of all. <_< Don't ask for opinons if you only want to hear the ones that agree with you. Yuck.
Lysette
I freely admit to being a layman! I've only had a year of dressage training and a grand total of 6 years riding--and sadly that has been of the once a week lesson variety. My contact with the Arabian world is presently limited to seeing a couple of shows a year and what information I can glean from books, magazines and, yes, internet forums. In this reading and "spectating" I have come across several breeders and showers who believe that high motion in the front legs is a requisit for ideal movement in an Arabian horse. From some of the horses winning at shows I would have to conclude that the judges are equating "motion" with highly lifted knees with little regard for what the back end is doing. I do not agree with such practices. If placing "Arabian" in front of "motion" reminds even a few judges, showers, and spectators that there is more to look for than just the front legs then I have to support that. Perhaps I am simply attending the wrong shows...
Lysette
HLM
Yuck
I am sorry that you call this arrogance, when it is ment to explain. If "explanations" experiences, knowledge turn you off, so be it.
Hansi
Guest
I agree Lysette. If adding the word Arabian in front of movement reminds those involved just what kind of conformation and movement they should be looking at I support it. The big knee action in the back is not what Arabian movement should be judged on especially when there's nothing going on with the back end.
Just Another Layman
Guest
Whoops! That should read "the big knee action in the front".
HLM
Hi Lisette and others

I dont think you should be called a layman, nor do all the others who indeed ride, have been in the saddle continously for a time, and learned, as all of us had to do and still do. One does not have to be a Grand Prix rider either. there are many excellent endurance riders also, who might not be grand prix riders/trainers, and they cant be laymen either.

I refer to a layman0, a person who reads books, has may be once a while been on a horse riding around the yard, and tries to convey what a horse should do, what conformation makes the horse do what, etc. that also
i cludes those, who have/had a trainer and due to their own lack of knowledge/experience could not possible tell, if the trainer is good or bad (under saddle that is). those who are riding a lot, have ridden a lot know exactly what I mean. there are even horses which qualify conformationwise, but dont have the heart, the spirit, a good attitude, are lazy or overspirited, shy away from a fly,
jump over every shadow on the ground, thinking it is solid,.

For instance there are some par excellent books written
in German (Steinbrecht,Mueseler, etc) which when translated into english lose a lot. this means that a person, who's mothertongue is not english, could easily misintrepet, misunderstand etc. Even for those where it is their mother tongue, it is sometimes quite difficult.
It is much better, when the explanations/teaching are shown with rider/teacher and horse.

I said many times before, that the SE and Asils bring along a lot by nature, learn easy and train easy, by enlarge. They are less afraid, have more intelligence than some other warmblood breed, and when they do run away, stop ten feet later looking back what they ran away from in the first plase. they are also more forgiving.
But all this has nothing to do with correct gaits, movement.

We also need to remember that the Desert Bred Horse is basically a "galloper". If it has a tremendous rearend, it will be able to conquer any ground readily.

Knee action: You need to lay a stick measuring the knee action to be identical with the hock action,. should be one dead on line. since the hock is foalded to have the leg reach far forward, the knee action shows the same having the front legs reach forward.and in reality the foot dwells.
I dont know if you all understood what I mean. already you can tell this on a few day old foal. In other words, also balance. this other knee action you all might refer to, is BRUTALLY TRAINED ON, is unnatural. Watch some of those horses in the magazine or alive, how their saliber glands are supressed, the bloodvessels poking out in their necks, , THEIr BACKS LIKE A PIECE OF STEEL etc.etc..AND THAT HURTS THE HORSE.

Nobody should be offended, having lesser knowledge than others, and those who continue learning will also some day became accomplished. Some do sooner than later, some never do, all they do is talk, which gets nobody nowhere fast. But it sure sounds nice.

Just my opinion
Hansi biggrin.gif .
diane
smile.gif Layman – if a layman label means I’m still learning, I’ll gladly accept it! wink.gif The day I stop learning, please send donations not flowers – my animals will need looking after huh.gif I’d rather be open-minded to all information than closed and unforgiving in my thought process and interactions!

A dressage horse is a superior athlete – of this there is no doubt. As like any horse doing well in its specified field, they are selected for all the best reasons. As you suggest Hansi, only the best will make it to the top – human and equine. The best usually are very similar in conformational attributes (exceptions rule) and they probably have an attitude giving them the spirit to work as a partnership with their rider.

The Egyptians use dancing horses (aka / pseudo or even ‘historical’ dressage??) for special events ~ these horses are selected, not all Arabians are dancing horse performers! The CHOICE for SELECTION is there. Not all Arabians are the same. Why is it expected for them to be the same? because the Standard says so. Judges must refer to the handbook or face peer pressure (ie not used or criticised) that they are not judging accordingly to the rules.

There are levels for all types of competition or even every-day work. I would suggest this is where the saying “Horses for Courses” comes from and the Arabian Horse is no exception! The Standard suggests 45 degree angle for ‘ideal conformation’ – what is the history behind this? It does give great forward movement dependent on arm length and placement. What made this ‘favoured attribute’ so wanted and now necessary? Probably because in the late 1800s, aside of the TB (crossed from other hot-blooded breeds over domestic stock) there wasn’t much choice apart from the hackney-type carriage horses and draught horses. What did these type of equines have in common?, more than likely a steep shoulder with the up/down high knee action. Its definitely eye-catching to watch a good carriage horse with this action. And to my mind, if some Arabians displayed a steeper shoulder angle, because of its commonality to the then popular equine with what was the norm, the choice would have been for a lower angle on the shoulder or more so the 45 degree and so noted.

Some dressage horses have the higher action type of movement, more than likely in the lower – medium levels, again – it catches the eye when being watched. From experience there are individuals who display no engagement and more than likely being ridden “front to back” rather than “back to front” and yet still produce an appealing front-leg action. One particular individual just about won everything on the picture/presentation including high front action and yet continuously berated for no engagement within dressage test comments. Why then would judges place a horse with no engagement first continuously? Reasons could be speculative and endless - talk the talk but couldn’t walk the walk? Peer / emotive pressure ~ now this I’ve seen done! This is a different discussion altogether!!!!

Understanding conformation does give the key to what an equine will be capable of, whether the conformation will be good enough to take you to the top or not in any sport / athletic event. Arabians have been doing it for longer and are probably more adapted than say warmblooded horses. The quest for bigger must be better in the warmblooded-breeds is proving a fallacy, amongst other issues, Nature really does know best. This is why the Arabian Horse even in the husbandry of the Bedouin (for better or worse) has proven itself time and again, earning the respect of many, gleaning the title of ‘perfect’ as a Breed, not necessarily the individual.

Understanding the Arabian Horse and its history should have a greater impact on the Arabian Horse enthusiast. To my mind, the Arabian Horse enthusiast has more to contend with than just conformation issues. They should be willing to understand the history of the Breed, explaining to some degree its variances along with basic conformation issues. That’s why the Arabian has a pedigree (verbal (strains) and written) with such depth, they were here before the others and they did have variety. Most other Breeds do not have the variety the Arabian Horse as a Breed offers. In today’s ‘driven’ world, variety isn’t a concept which marries well with a set Standard. This doesn’t automatically make it wrong nor an issue to be ridiculed. There’s a place for everybody, even within the Arabian Horse as a Breed.
HLM
good morning dear diane

You said it so right. Indeed, one should learn all bout the very beginning of the Desert bred horse, the Arabian, and then understand more why only the best were used for breeding, because it meant survival of men. Such selection carried forward through earlier imports, all done by expert horsemen/women (Blunt) etc. Going back into
the 19th century, France in particular, imported excellent specimen and exchanged also with Russia,Poland,Hungary,Germany.

The attributes the Desert Breds brought along, were seeked after highly., were badly needed to create a better lighthorse, either for riding or driving. In particular, besides their physical attributes, it was the Arab's mind, their intelligence and quick learning, their love for the humanoids, easy keep and it's incredible stamina, endurance, staying power.

Like in anything in life, grading was done and is done.
Not all can be par excellent, and not all can be bad.
Each one can serve a purpose and it is what a person is looking for.

My complaint basically is, that breeding is may be taken to lightly, just to create another foal, without realizing what is enherited, what is important for its survival, and what it was created for in the first place. Often irresponsible breeding is done, fad breeding, promotion and glamorizing, romance and the likes. All foals are cute, so are puppies.

Many of our people want to learn, and go through rigid training, spent time and money to improve. Others just talk, and this can be confusing or dangerous.

If we are to preserve the Aabian horse, then we should show what they are capable of doing, not just looking pretty and being lovable. The bad impression created and than critizied by outsiders is not a jealous motion, but what such people see and judge by their own impression.
When 9 out of ten horses at a show cant move, dont have the attributes of long ago, what are we left with?
When they then see the magazines, photos with often unrealistic praising, of course they start to wonder or even laugh. When the good points of the Arabian is "Bred away"
inclduing "movement" what will we be dealing with in the future?

I have seen many excellent Se's and Asils. Quite a few are used by our people in riding through their rough terrain, ( mountains, rocky terrain etc) and these excellent arabians- which can go for ever- are never seen in the show ring. Why? Well, for one thing, bad judging is often the case, or if "you are not in" if you dont make large monetary contribution to certain clubs/societies, exercise social climbing ,kiss butt or employe a top expensive haendler.

Forunately, things are changing rapidly and a great deal in my opinion. Charlatans are easier recognized and fraudulence curbed. Arabians are no longer used as a tax shelter/ expensive commodity, but people are learning to take a serious look at the situation. Many an experienced person lends a helping hand- free of charge- trying to help survival of the breed. Trying to teach research of pedigrees, what the ancestors contributed and what bred on. The latter basically by recognizing the individual produced.

I still maintain, that unless each of these- in particular- breeding stallion, is tested for what they really are and can do, degeneration can become very common and critizism, as shown by one of the poster can not be stopped. Only when one can diagnose something, can one try to find a cure..

Just my opinion
Have a great day
hansi biggrin.gif
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